26 replies to this topic

[caliban]

We are thinking of undertaking another initiative to formulate a new community-designed supplement.

Nothing has been decided yet, we are just gathering ideas.

Please share your thoughts below, and if you vote in the poll above, we will come back to you to see if you want to get involved.

[niner]

Are you thinking of a multivitamin, like a new version of Vimmortal, or something completely different?

[1kgcoffee]

Perhaps something like a new chapters product? I'd be interested to see the kind of creative anti-glycation formula our boys could come up with. Or a multi-polyphenol supplement, ie fruits, teas, various leafs.

Edited by 1kgcoffee, 09 October 2011 - 04:08 AM.

[Mind]

It has been 3 years since Vimmortal was first conceived. I was hoping to get started on the next improved version of Vimmortal. If someone else wants to lead a project for some other type of supplement, feel free. I would rather first focus on improving Vimmortal. That will take plenty of time.

[pamojja]

Would like to suggest 2 real improvements for Vim:

#1 lower the price for shipping to Europe to what most other reasonable companies would charge.
#2 separate water- from fat-soluble nutrients into softgels and capsules.

[nameless]

Vimmortal could do with an update. One thing I'd suggest, which would be different than the first time we did this sort of thing -- give those participating some idea of the final costs per ingredient, and number of capsules required. It's all well and good to suggest fancy ingredients, etc. but it does come down to cost vs benefit really. If a couple of non-essential ingredients could be removed and the price goes down 50%, it's the sort of thing that could be worth considering (as an example).

As for things besides Vimmortal as potential new supplements... hmm... I'd like to see a cocoa supplement, with a decent polyphenol count, oxalates, lead and impurities removed (and tested for). Not entirely sure such an extract exists, however.

Or a Provinols (wine extract) supplement, assuming they even still sell the stuff.

[Anthony_Loera]

imho,

Vimmortal is close to being perfect for many folks here. But tweaks to the formulaiton do need to happen. Although it's been talked about quite a bit, I concur that the next version will not have choline. This one ingredient will reduce the number of capsules quite a bit.

Shipping pricing to europe is a bit of an issue, for those in Europe, what pricing are you getting from US companies? Please don't quote iHerb pricing, as they have been grandfathered into a DHL deal, which DHL is not budging on for anyone new.

What is other pricing that you are finding?

A

[pamojja]

For example, the shipping for 3 bottles of Menatrenone from RelentlessImprovement, or 3 bottles of K2 Complex from InviteHealth, was about 10 bucks each.

[niner]

Anthony, what was the capping system that you used for Nitro-MX? It looks like a two part hard capsule that's partially filled with oil and compounds, then heat sealed, or possibly glued. It seems to hold oil just fine. When we looked into formulating Vimmortal's oil-soluble compounds in oil, using a softgel, the thing that killed it was the insane minimums required for softgels. The technology used in Nitro-MX looks like it would work, and would have a more reasonable minimum. Could this possibly work, or would the minimum or cost still be too high?

[Willou]

Although it's been talked about quite a bit, I concur that the next version will not have choline. This one ingredient will reduce the number of capsules quite a bit.
A

When will the new version become available for purchase?

[Anthony_Loera]

Anthony, what was the capping system that you used for Nitro-MX? It looks like a two part hard capsule that's partially filled with oil and compounds, then heat sealed, or possibly glued. It seems to hold oil just fine. When we looked into formulating Vimmortal's oil-soluble compounds in oil, using a softgel, the thing that killed it was the insane minimums required for softgels. The technology used in Nitro-MX looks like it would work, and would have a more reasonable minimum. Could this possibly work, or would the minimum or cost still be too high?

Hi niner,

the Capsules used were Licaps, using nitrogen environment so that the material doesn't go bad over time. Hmm... now that you mention it, it might be something we can do. However, price on Licaps encapsulation is always more expense than other capsules... now lets assume we can do it, would we split the capsules up in two different bottles?

Hi Wilou,

It will be around 1st Qtr 2012, my estimate because of how this process goes. I suggest to take advantage of Vimmortal discount for full members.

Cheers
A

[pamojja]

... now lets assume we can do it, would we split the capsules up in two different bottles?

Good idea. Don't know how Licaps behave, but softgels do moisturize try capsules. This way water- and fat-soluble nutrients could be sold separate too and intake a bit more individualized (..though that still wont give at least 10.000 IU of Vitamin D3, which I personally need to keep 25(OH)D3 up).

[PWAIN]

Shipping pricing to europe is a bit of an issue, for those in Europe, what pricing are you getting from US companies? Please don't quote iHerb pricing, as they have been grandfathered into a DHL deal, which DHL is not budging on for anyone new.

Hi Anthony,

I am based in Australia and my last order for 4 bottles was around $100 for the product and $42.5 for the shipping. That means that I paid 40% of the cost of the product for shipping.

iHerb does usps shipping for $4 - probably another special they have managed to sort out. This is from their web page:

International Airmail (available to selected countries): As low as $4.00 for the first pound! This option applies to orders valued up to $80.00, and weighing 4 lbs (1814 grams) or less. This shipment method has a 1 to 4 week delivery time

USPS web site indicates shipping prices to Australia :

http://pe.usps.com/t...2.htm#ep1572941

Packages (Small Packets)

Weight not over (ozs.) Price
1 $1.72
2 $2.59
3 $3.46
...
12 $9.60
20 $13.18
52 $27.50

This is non tracked (as is iHerb's), however for reputable companies that I have done business with before from certain countries, I feel that it is a risk I am prepared to wear.

Would you consider using USPS (without priority shipping times) or similar cheaper services so that people like myself who are overseas can still get reasonable shipping?

[Anthony_Loera]

Hi PWAIN,

as mentioned in my post above (7th post down from the top): Please don't quote iHerb pricing, as they have been grandfathered into a DHL deal, which DHL is not budging on for anyone new.

However, if tracking is not an issue and you are confident USPS and Australia post will not lose your package, I can start sending packages to Australia, knowing that if the package does get lost... there is a possibility you will never see that package or it's contents, and will not be refunded the purchase of it. If that is ok with you maybe we can start a shipping limited program using first class international.

In the past we offered first class international without tracking, and folks right next door (Canada) got a bit upset when a couple of packages did not arrive because they were lost by USPS or the Canada post.

Quick note about Insurance:
USPS only offers insurance on Global Express Guaranteed and Priority packages, not first class international (USPS Website). So, you must understand why we can't provide refunds on these types of International shipments that get lost.

Cheers
A

[Geijutsu]

I noticed there is a lot of discussions about increasing the bioavailability and absorption of certain nutrients with low bioavailability, searched around the forum, and I was surprised to see that not many people discuss Enteric Coating, I think this is a great idea to incorporate to a multi vitamin supplement to increase nutrients absorption significantly.

[niner]

... not many people discuss Enteric Coating, I think this is a great idea to incorporate to a multi vitamin supplement to increase nutrients absorption significantly.

Enteric coating would only help if something was acid labile. For most compounds, that's not a problem. Even at that, the enteric coating doesn't help absorption, but rather keeps the compound from getting wrecked in the stomach. Other than that, I don't think you'd get anything from enteric coating. It would add to the cost, possibly a lot.

[Geijutsu]

... not many people discuss Enteric Coating, I think this is a great idea to incorporate to a multi vitamin supplement to increase nutrients absorption significantly.

Enteric coating would only help if something was acid labile. For most compounds, that's not a problem. Even at that, the enteric coating doesn't help absorption, but rather keeps the compound from getting wrecked in the stomach. Other than that, I don't think you'd get anything from enteric coating. It would add to the cost, possibly a lot.

Yeah this is what I meant, sorry for not making myself clear, perhaps if we wanted to implement carnosine and SAMe into the ingredients list, an enteric coating is important, since both of those are very sensitive to stomach acid.

Edited by Geijutsu, 29 October 2011 - 06:15 AM.

[niner]

... not many people discuss Enteric Coating, I think this is a great idea to incorporate to a multi vitamin supplement to increase nutrients absorption significantly.

Enteric coating would only help if something was acid labile. For most compounds, that's not a problem. Even at that, the enteric coating doesn't help absorption, but rather keeps the compound from getting wrecked in the stomach. Other than that, I don't think you'd get anything from enteric coating. It would add to the cost, possibly a lot.

Yeah this is what I meant, sorry for not making myself clear, perhaps if we wanted to implement carnosine and SAMe into the ingredients list, an enteric coating is important, since both of those are very sensitive to stomach acid.

Carnosine? What's the evidence for that being very sensitive to stomach acid? I've never heard that it's sensitive, and no one sells it in an enterically coarted formulation... It's susceptible to destruction by carnosinases, but they're in the bloodstream, so that's an after-absorption risk.

[maxwatt]

If I correctly recall some details of the Vimmortal formulation, there are some enteric micro-encapsulated components.

[Cephalon]

+ please keep the 1mg Lithium!
+ split fat and water soluble in caps and gel-caps if possible or use Licaps if that works
+ please offer lower shipping rates to Europe. Keep in mind, that there is a growing number of EU based users.

- please do not add fancy herbs in mcg quantities like competitiors do, to extend their lables. the old formula is good in that regard
- please do not significantly change the B vitamin ratios. I think we all agree that megadosing B vitamins is contra productive
- please do not include nicotineamide

I could contribute by creating the German version for the labeling. By creating I just mean the wording. With the help of some other users we can come up with some appropriate labels for the main EU languages. The natitonal labels can be labeld upon the original US label (simple avery label) and just need to cover the ingridients list, instructions, contradictions and FDA disclaimer. German customs will not longer allow any supplements to be imported into the country without proper national labels. The supplement itself usually does not cause any problems as long as it does not contain any excessive levels of vitamins. I know that in some states in Germany there is a max. for Vitamin D at 2000IU. It would be wise to stay at around 1000IU. I think everyone will add a specific personal dose to that anyways.
I was in touch with another law student on board from the Netherlands previously. He should be able to come up with the Dutch requirments. Please let me know if you want to proceed with the label idea and I will follow up.

Edit: Anthony will you offer Paypal payment, or do you already do? That was always a thing I missed on your side and that kept me from ordering ... beside the strict customs regulations here in germany ...

Edited by Cephalon, 01 November 2011 - 12:01 AM.

[niner]

If I correctly recall some details of the Vimmortal formulation, there are some enteric micro-encapsulated components.

I don't think they were enteric coatings. You're probably thinking of one of the lipid-soluble components that was available in some sort of composite formulation so that it could be handled as a dry powder while still having decent bioavailability. I know we talked about such things, though I don't know if they were ultimately employed.

[Mind]

Thanks for the input and offer to help with the labels Cephalon!

We are tentatively currently targeting early next year, around the end of January or early February for developing the new formulation.

[ubik]

I often receive packages shipped by First-Class Mail International whitout issue.
I hope the French customer will be eligible to the First-ClassMail International from rev genetics.

Otherwise, I love that there is no more copper in the next version, the rest is perfect for me.

[Cephalon]

I also often receive my orders, but sometimes I don't. And those sometimes are associated with a lot of trouble.
I have my 3rd formal hearing at my distric court for importing medications (piracetam, pterostilbene, var. vitamins).
The first 2 charges where stoped without fine, but I'm not so sure about the current one. Luckily $$ is the only penalty applicable.

But you are right ubik, from 100orders approx. 5-6 get seized. The rest arrives without problems.

... sorry for going off topic ...

Edited by Cephalon, 14 November 2011 - 04:25 PM.

[brokenportal]

 LEV Prime.PNG   9.1KB   13 downloads

[brokenportal]

 LEV Prime label.PNG   31.6KB   32 downloads

[Anthony_Loera]

Do you want to add this as a separate topic for discussion Brokenportal?

A