382 replies to this topic

[unregistered_user]

My nootropic nightcap. This is what 5ml 2.303% MB looks like when it's put into 200mL and then 1mL of that mixture is put into a small glass of water. This is 57mcg.

DOWN THE HATCH!

Edited by semi-retarded-individual, 16 August 2011 - 04:03 AM.

[markymark]

snip

ups, sorry for bringing up old stuff
MM

[/quote]
We discussed this a year or so back. It appears to me that Provepharm is trying to imply that there's something wrong with conventional MB so that people will paranoically buy their more expensive product. It's not that difficult to purify an organic compound, nor is it hard to test for trace levels of metals. I think that given the small doses we're using (ug to low mg), the danger from metals is not high. That said, I would love to have a product with a believable CoA.
[/quote]

[MrHappy]

snip

ups, sorry for bringing up old stuff
MM


We discussed this a year or so back. It appears to me that Provepharm is trying to imply that there's something wrong with conventional MB so that people will paranoically buy their more expensive product. It's not that difficult to purify an organic compound, nor is it hard to test for trace levels of metals. I think that given the small doses we're using (ug to low mg), the danger from metals is not high. That said, I would love to have a product with a believable CoA.

<chuckle>
Marketing. How else are you going to sell a $5 product for $100 unless you cast doubt on the cheaper version :P

[milly]

Hi, I hope someone can help me, I am really poor at maths
My methylene blue is 1%
I took 1ml of the methylene blue and dissolved it in 160ml of water, if I took 1ml of this would that be the 60mcg dose recommended?.
Thanks in advance...

[AgeVivo]

The longterm studies with rats and mice showed lymphoma in a trend that corresponded with the dose. The lowest equivalent human dosage was 2.5mg.
Most of the long-term clinical trials (human)I have seen are 60ug.

You seem to know how to find equivalent human dose to rodent dose.
In another thread they are trying to make such calculations: http://www.longecity...769#entry473769
Can you help there?
I am myself interested for other reasons but am a bit confused with my calculations. Thank you

[manic_racetam]

The longterm studies with rats and mice showed lymphoma in a trend that corresponded with the dose. The lowest equivalent human dosage was 2.5mg.
Most of the long-term clinical trials (human)I have seen are 60ug.

You seem to know how to find equivalent human dose to rodent dose.
In another thread they are trying to make such calculations: http://www.longecity...769#entry473769
Can you help there?
I am myself interested for other reasons but am a bit confused with my calculations. Thank you

This LINK is to an allometric scaling calculator. I don't understand the processes involved but I have no reason to believe it isn't accurate. Hope that helps

[adamh]

Assuming your mb at 1% weighs a gram per ml, that is 10 mg per ml or 10,000 ug. Divide that by 160 for the 160 ml you put it in and you should be reasonably close to 60 ug per ml of the diluted solution. For the 2% in the pic, just use 1/2 ml with the same amount of water and it will work. An eyedropper or graduated pipette makes it easy to measure small amounts of liquid.

[niner]

My nootropic nightcap. This is what 5ml 2.303% MB looks like when it's put into 200mL and then 1mL of that mixture is put into a small glass of water. This is 57mcg.

I like the look, but haven't other people been saying that you can barely see the color from 60ug? When I work out your dilution, I get ten times as much:

(2.303g/100ml) * 5ml * (1ml/200ml) = .000576 g = 576 mcg.

As it happens, you probably need at least that much, if not four times as much, for the nootropic effect, though people have reported effects at lower doses. (at least they think the doses are lower...)

[X_Danny_X]

For anyone who thinks they will become instantly smarter with MB, you are in for a disappointment. If you want to increase your intake of information from your environment (including learning from mistakes) that will be usable in a cognitive sense at an easier rate from the point you dose MB and on, then MB is for you.

To anyone who doubts MB's effectiveness: Try this excercise. Though you may be able to change the exercise to whatever fits your personal needs, this particular exercise will showcase you mental cognitive functions as well as whole bodily cognitive functions that games like dual-n-back may miss because it is simplistic movements on a computer.
- - Learn to juggle. Take MB, learn the very basics of juggling, and see how fast you can pick it up. I know there is no baseline to base it off, but you may be surprised to see what is possible.

** Note that for almost every study on MB that has tested for cognitive benefits, the doses given were after a particular training and not before. MB is fundamentally different in that it consolidates and organizes learning for efficiency for the next situation in where it may be implemented. I have noticed continuous dosing makes this effect continuous as logic presumes, but it seems to me a new cognitive baseline is formed in which I don't even realize that every choice I make, no matter how small, is systemically a "smarter" decision than if I had been presented the same choice in the past, where repeated non-learning tendencies were prevalent, but are now crushed by MB.

As for 60 mcg being the nootropic dose, I am going to propose in my next post a scientifically logical theory as to why Methylene Blue is an effective cognitive enhancer at low doses and how possibly the number 60 mcg came to be. I hope I will get input from others on what I have over looked, or what may be wrong. It is going to take me a while to post it as I have a lot of information to organize into a readable understandable post. About two weeks ago I went off on learning the technicalities and implications of MB for about 12 hours in one day, I overwhelmed myself and I personally felt I needed to take a vacation to not get become pessimistic towards nootropics. It will be my educated theory, I'm learning through my computer, I'm excited to post it, and I won't be bothered at all if I'm completely wrong because I still did learn a lot.

*Don't forget yogurt and probiotics are a great way to ease the gastrointestinal effects that I get from MB after continuous dosing. And take a multi-vitamin as the vitamin E is a great safety measure for anyone who feels like they still need to play it safe...that should end discussion on the safety of MB.

how much is 60mcg in ml? I have a 1 ml synringe starting from .1ml .2ml .3ml to the full 1ml

[niner]

The longterm studies with rats and mice showed lymphoma in a trend that corresponded with the dose. The lowest equivalent human dosage was 2.5mg.
Most of the long-term clinical trials (human)I have seen are 60ug.

The lowest dose in mice was 2.5 mg/kg. For a 70kg human that would be 175 mg without allometric scaling, or about 15 mg/day if you scale it. At this dose, the mice lived longer than controls. In fact, the mice lived longer than controls at all doses, even if there was a lymphoma trend. (Mice are cancer-prone.) The clinical trial that MarkyMark posted was 200mg/d for the active arm, and I think 16mg for the 'placebo' (lol). The placebo group probably felt better than the actives, which might be why I couldn't find a publication...

[unregistered_user]

My nootropic nightcap. This is what 5ml 2.303% MB looks like when it's put into 200mL and then 1mL of that mixture is put into a small glass of water. This is 57mcg.

I like the look, but haven't other people been saying that you can barely see the color from 60ug? When I work out your dilution, I get ten times as much:

(2.303g/100ml) * 5ml * (1ml/200ml) = .000576 g = 576 mcg.

As it happens, you probably need at least that much, if not four times as much, for the nootropic effect, though people have reported effects at lower doses. (at least they think the doses are lower...)

Woops, you're right! Thank you for catching that. I guess it would help if I knew how to properly dilute concentrations (or do basic math).

[MrHappy]

My nootropic nightcap. This is what 5ml 2.303% MB looks like when it's put into 200mL and then 1mL of that mixture is put into a small glass of water. This is 57mcg.

I like the look, but haven't other people been saying that you can barely see the color from 60ug? When I work out your dilution, I get ten times as much:

(2.303g/100ml) * 5ml * (1ml/200ml) = .000576 g = 576 mcg.

As it happens, you probably need at least that much, if not four times as much, for the nootropic effect, though people have reported effects at lower doses. (at least they think the doses are lower...)

Woops, you're right! Thank you for catching that. I guess it would help if I knew how to properly dilute concentrations (or do basic math).

Yup, that looks like about 500ug in the glass by the colour! (EDIT: I meant ug, damnit!)

Edited by MrHappy, 16 August 2011 - 10:47 PM.

[milly]

Assuming your mb at 1% weighs a gram per ml, that is 10 mg per ml or 10,000 ug. Divide that by 160 for the 160 ml you put it in and you should be reasonably close to 60 ug per ml of the diluted solution. For the 2% in the pic, just use 1/2 ml with the same amount of water and it will work. An eyedropper or graduated pipette makes it easy to measure small amounts of liquid.

Thanks, appreciate your help!

Should it be put in a glass of water? Or can I just take the 1ml without dissolving first?
I bought this one, rid-all methylene blue I hope it is OK ... The "rid-all" logo and fish photos make me nervous!

[Synchro]

Just thought I'd make and add this in for those unfamiliar with concentrations and dilutions....

Elus, thanks very much for this; it's the classic chemistry conversion of concentrations equation, and it just came in bloody handy thank you very much in addition to MB.

QUESTION: when I made up the solution, adding 1.3 ml of 2.303% MB (Kordon) to 500 ml water, it was still quite blue. Bright, dense blue. I added vitamin C, and got it to a pale blue, but still blue.

So, those people who have said that a 60 mcg/ml solution should be colorless, do you really know or are you guessing? If you're guessing, for crissakes keep your guesses to yourself. If you're not, then someone please explain to me why my 60 mcg/ml solution is so blue?

Anyway, I took a 1 cc dose, and felt great. Grrrreat. Still irritable as hell, but feeling great.

One of my lab employee's put it this way: "you're still a cranky old man...but now you're a cranky old man speeded up!!!"

But I would like very much to know if I actually took a 60mcg dose. I've triple-checked the math, worked the equation out myself by hand, and I do come up with 1.3 ml of the Kordon Methylene Blue in 500 ml water every time for a 60 mcg/ml solution.

I will be dosing this at 60 mcg 3 x day, and will report my own experience.

Best, Synchro

[stephen_b]

I'd put it in water to avoid staining.

[MrHappy]

Just thought I'd make and add this in for those unfamiliar with concentrations and dilutions....

Elus, thanks very much for this; it's the classic chemistry conversion of concentrations equation, and it just came in bloody handy thank you very much in addition to MB.

QUESTION: when I made up the solution, adding 1.3 ml of 2.303% MB (Kordon) to 500 ml water, it was still quite blue. Bright, dense blue. I added vitamin C, and got it to a pale blue, but still blue.

So, those people who have said that a 60 mcg/ml solution should be colorless, do you really know or are you guessing? If you're guessing, for crissakes keep your guesses to yourself. If you're not, then someone please explain to me why my 60 mcg/ml solution is so blue?

Anyway, I took a 1 cc dose, and felt great. Grrrreat. Still irritable as hell, but feeling great.

One of my lab employee's put it this way: "you're still a cranky old man...but now you're a cranky old man speeded up!!!"

But I would like very much to know if I actually took a 60mcg dose. I've triple-checked the math, worked the equation out myself by hand, and I do come up with 1.3 ml of the Kordon Methylene Blue in 500 ml water every time for a 60 mcg/ml solution.

I will be dosing this at 60 mcg 3 x day, and will report my own experience.

Best, Synchro

23mg/mL * 1.3 = 29.9mg
29mg/500mL = 0.058mg/mL or 58ug/mL

Maths look right. At that dilution, it should be a 'hint' of very pale blue in the water (EDIT: That is, AFTER you take a mL of that solution and put it in a glass of water. )

Edited by MrHappy, 17 August 2011 - 11:53 PM.

[Krell]

I am taking 300ug MB three times a day.

When I take MB first thing in the morning, the effect seems similar
to a cup of coffee, so I wondered if it changes my blood pressure,
so I made a couple of measurements while reading the paper in bed:

1. 1/2 hour after waking: BP 116/79, HR 55 bpm

2. 15 min after taking 300ug MB: BP 110/76, HR 53 bpm

Based on my one data point, MB seems to lower BP, or
at least it does not elevate BP. YMMV

[unregistered_user]

I took 3.04mg MB this morning with a very small amount of piracetam, a multi, a b-complex and about 4g of fish oil.

I'm about to get really scientific so those of you without an advanced understanding of biochemistry might be flummoxed by my following commentary. About 2 hours after my dose I begin shitting my brains out and experiencing major stomach upset, seemingly out of the blue (lol, a pun). Felt good for a while after that but it was a three-flusher for sure. Then, about 8.5 hours after dosing I began experiencing an anxiety that seems to exist only in my chest. My heart rate didn't seem increased but I felt a tension and slight pain across my entire chest. I did just deal with a confrontation with one of my employees but my feelings of anxiety have never manifested in this way before. It's the same kind of chest "pain" I've mentioned in previous posts but it seemed ramped up a little. It was just uncomfortable and a little disconcerting. The pain combined with the tension just made me feel nervous. When I got home my stomach was still roiling so I rocketed into the bathroom, took hold of the shitter and let another one rip. The only variable in this equation is the amount of MB ingested. I've been taking about this much fish oil for about a week (although I have heard fish oil can cause these symptoms sans the chest sensations).

3mg seems like a relatively small dose and I'm surprised that these negative effects presented so long after my morning dose. Does this mean something cumulative is happening or the half-life of MB is greater than the 5 hours previously mentioned? Who knows?

I'm listening to my body on this one and will back off a little. Maybe 1mg a day for a while. I have to play this semi-retarded and not fully-retarded, otherwise I might just wind up in the ER.

[rwac]

I took 3.04mg MB this morning with a very small amount of piracetam, a multi, a b-complex and about 4g of fish oil.
...
3mg seems like a relatively small dose and I'm surprised that these negative effects presented so long after my morning dose. Does this mean something cumulative is happening or the half-life of MB is greater than the 5 hours previously mentioned? Who knows?

Sorry to hear that.
MB is antibacterial, so if it doesn't get absorbed fully, it might play havoc with your gut bacteria.

[unregistered_user]

Thanks. I don't think it should be ruled out that I've picked up a bug of some sort. I work in a restaurant and am in constant contact with people and money. I am feeling a malaise sort of like you get when you have a flu bug. The MB may or may not be the culprit here but I am reporting anything that might be relevant to other users who are headed down the same path of experimentation, just incase there is some relationship between my dose and these symptoms.

[MrHappy]

Thanks. I don't think it should be ruled out that I've picked up a bug of some sort. I work in a restaurant and am in constant contact with people and money. I am feeling a malaise sort of like you get when you have a flu bug. The MB may or may not be the culprit here but I am reporting anything that might be relevant to other users who are headed down the same path of experimentation, just incase there is some relationship between my dose and these symptoms.

The fish oil could do that..

I've settled on 750ug / dose. Seems to be the sweet spot for me so far (65kg). Too much and I get tense muscles.

On a lighter note, I had the first couple of beers last night since I began MB. Hilarious! It was like being the calm, clear centre of a alcoholic storm Eventually, the MB dose from the morning ran out (10 hours, I find) and the alcohol won. Interesting, though.

[Raptor87]

Does anyone have any reports on sleep and mb?

[MrHappy]

Does anyone have any reports on sleep and mb?

Yep. No problems. It's not an 'upper' like coffee.

For some reason, I'm reminded of the Simpsons episode where Bart takes 'Focussin'.

You may find that you are not 'mentally tired' anymore, so you'll need to take your bedtime queue from physical tiredness instead. ;p

[Raptor87]

Any sleep- improvement?

[MrHappy]

Any sleep- improvement?

I don't normally have trouble sleeping, so it's a hard one to comment on. I'd say, if anything, I've been to bed perhaps an hour earlier than usual twice the last week. Tonight however, I'm still up at 1:30am (mind you it is Saturday night).

Are you taking MB at the moment?

[unregistered_user]

Just thought I'd update. It seems my frequent bathroom trips are a result of food poisoning and not MB. Damn it MB. You are a general disease preventative. Next time prevent me from getting poisoned in the first place!

[MrHappy]

I can report that for me, the effects are definitely enhanced by either vitamin c, magnesium or lysine. I had stopped taking my vitamin stack for a day and felt much less focused. Within half an hour of taking just those 3, I noticed an immediate boost/improvement. I'm guessing it's the vitamin C. Will experiment some more.

[Synchro]

However, I am mindful that if I raise the dose too much, that while I might get a more pleasurable or useful brain effect, I will lose the longevity effects reported earlier in this thread. Any feedback on that problem is welcome.

At 60mcg, I think you have a lot of room to increase the dose before you lose the anti-aging benefits. I'm now of the opinion that we might need 1-2 milligrams in order to hit the 100 nM concentration that's considered optimal.

Ah, thanks, Niner, that's interesting.

I will try escalating. I did double the dose to 120 mcg per 5 hours yesterday, and I felt pretty...loopy. Not energized and sharp, which was what I was hoping for. I seem to be really sensitive; the 60 mcg dose DEF has an effect.

Perhaps there's a bimodal effect, where I might get more energy and mental sharpness much closer to 1 to 2 mg...and I definitely want the anti-aging effect. I'll see if I can measure my blood levels my HPLC-MS, but I suspect I'm going to have to get a GC-MS...I don't mind an excuse to get another piece of lab equipment LOL.

[Synchro]

rwac: Thank you, that's what I meant!

So I just took 70 drops of my diluted solution (diluted solution is 5ml MB in 200mL water). This mixture effectively makes each drop equal to 38mcg. I know this might sound off but I only get 15 drops out of my dropper instead of 20 when I fill it up to 1 ml. So basically...

1 ML of my diluted solution = 575mcg

575mcg / 15 = 38mcg per drop

38mcg * 70 drops = 2.66mg.

It restored my alertness but also gave me some light chest pain. It isn't intense pain but it is slightly noticeable. I've heard some people say chest pain is to be expected while other sources online refer to it as a serious side effect. Anyone else here experience it? Normal?

@rwac: Are you taking MB? If so, at what dose?

I don't wish to start any web paranoia, or hijack this thread into fish-oil land, but I wonder about that fish-oil and I'm genuinely concerned about your health...I used to have A-fib intermittently, and I noticed that fish-oil would bring it on.

Then I found out that many fish-oil supplements are actually rancid; taking rancid fish-oil is far worse than not taking it at all; if the fish-oil is rancid, a veritable storm of peroxided fat is released into one's blood, which can actually precipitate chest pain or even a heart attack.

Wanna get sick on purpose? Buy a bag of Frito-Lay's corn chips, leave it in the sun for a few hours, then enjoy. You'll get sicker than a dog (a sick dog, of course...I wonder where that expression came from?) from all the peroxidized corn oil.

So, I would just suggest, at the risk of being a pain in the ass, that you might wanna be suspicious of your fish-oil. For one thing, you should not have nasty burps. If you get nasty burps, that COULD BE an indication it was rancid. And having chest pain - that suggests to me either peroxidized fat free radical assault on the heart, or inflammation secondary to peroxidized fat free radicals aggravating costochondritis (if tenderness in anterior chest wall).

What I do - after giving up on fish-oil supplements a long time ago - is now I take Krill Oil. I buy the Krill IQ (with lecithin) from Mercola, but there are probably a number of places that sell Krill Oil in the capliques that keep out oxygen. On the Krill, I believe I'm getting a better mix of Omega-3's and 6's, without the rancidity. At least, I don't get nasty burps, AND I don't get atrial fibrillation or palpitations from the Krill.

Edited by Synchro, 21 August 2011 - 01:23 AM.

[rwac]

I will try escalating. I did double the dose to 120 mcg per 5 hours yesterday, and I felt pretty...loopy. Not energized and sharp, which was what I was hoping for. I seem to be really sensitive; the 60 mcg dose DEF has an effect.

Perhaps there's a bimodal effect, where I might get more energy and mental sharpness much closer to 1 to 2 mg...and I definitely want the anti-aging effect. I'll see if I can measure my blood levels my HPLC-MS, but I suspect I'm going to have to get a GC-MS...I don't mind an excuse to get another piece of lab equipment LOL.

Actually, the "nootropic dose" differs from person to person. Perhaps the dose needed increases with improving mitochondrial status.