382 replies to this topic

[pleb]

I can't find Methylene blue , it looks like the search engine on the site is bringing up any thing with Methylene in it and anything with blue in their catalogue,

[Logic]

I can't find Methylene blue , it looks like the search engine on the site is bringing up any thing with Methylene in it and anything with blue in their catalogue,

Use Google site search:
In Google; start your search with
site:longecity.org "your normal query here"

[pleb]

Hi Logic the search was on the peptide producers site, not on here, look at the three or four posts previous to this,

Edited by pleb, 05 April 2013 - 12:45 PM.

[Logic]

err... ok...
Why the hell look for MB on a peptide site?
Go to a pet-shop.

[Nattzor]

Just buy it at amazon or something like that (or a pet store if you want a physical store).

[treonsverdery]

Thinking of new Methylene blue products

I think they should try a norplant like version with the learning rodents, If the published data applies to humans then a human might be be 20 to 60 pct more capable at spatial cognitive memory activities from something that is less than 1c applied once. The implant form is almost zero cost nootroic implant that could actually dispense a centuries amount of greater cognitive function. It could change the meaning of mall earrings forever. Thinking of the developing world, there is a chance this would improve thier ability to improve their lives.

New varieties of the methylene blue molecule
 lipid preferring version of methylene blue.png   302.77KB   5 downloads


The way I would improve this is to actually try swapping the CH3 groups with a much longer alkane like propyl (ch2ch2ch2ch3) to cause higher lipid solubility, that way it would concentrate at completely different lipid rich body tissue where it could have some new measurable effect. Even at the ultramicrodoses the peer reviewed journals say function. Methlene blue at the lipid rich areas of the brain could have really novel effects, like improving myelin durability or functionality. This is a simple modification to try, also different pharmaceutical companies could actually patent their preferred versions. All my ideas are public domain.

Edited by treonsverdery, 13 April 2013 - 08:35 PM.

[8lu3]

I have bought 25g of M.B powder:

• Molecular formula: C16H18N3SC1
• Cas no: 61-73-4
• Molar mass: 319.85g/mol
• EC no:200-515-2
• Hazard: H302,H315,H319,H335
• Precaution: P261,P305+351+338

I was taking up to 50 drops of King British (with the pipette that came with product) of M.B:
The bottle contained 100ml of M.B @ 2.44%

I added the drops to a glass of water and drank in morning.



How would I go about diluting the powder to get 10mg or 60mg or 100mg doses.

Appreciate the help.

[niner]

How would I go about diluting the powder to get 10mg or 60mg or 100mg doses.

10mg/ml = 10g/liter or 1g/100ml

60mg/ml = 60g/liter or 6g/100ml

I'm assuming that you're using the right abbreviations here, and that mg means "milligram".

I'm not sure you'll really want to use the large doses as solutions- the taste might be awful, I dunno. Low concentrations are fine. Maybe higher ones are too, but you'll probably get a blue tongue at the least. You could put the solid in gelatin capsules. You would want to cut it with something like sugar.

[8lu3]

How would I go about diluting the powder to get 10mg or 60mg or 100mg doses.

10mg/ml = 10g/liter or 1g/100ml

60mg/ml = 60g/liter or 6g/100ml

I'm assuming that you're using the right abbreviations here, and that mg means "milligram".

I'm not sure you'll really want to use the large doses as solutions- the taste might be awful, I dunno. Low concentrations are fine. Maybe higher ones are too, but you'll probably get a blue tongue at the least. You could put the solid in gelatin capsules. You would want to cut it with something like sugar.

OK, numbers are not my strong point. So I am assuming that if I add 1g of M.B to 100ml of liquid, then each ml taken from the 100ml would be 10mg???

Yes mg as in milligram.


At first the taste was strange but I am used to it now.

I would normally take around 6am it made my tongue a dark blue but by 12pm it was hardly noticable at all.

I like the idea of capping MB, any info on weights and measures needed. I have scales and capping equipment.

Would cutting it with Vit C be a choice?

Thank you.

[niner]

So I am assuming that if I add 1g of M.B to 100ml of liquid, then each ml taken from the 100ml would be 10mg???

Would cutting it with Vit C be a choice?

Yes, that's right. I think you could probably use vitamin C. The two powders are different colors, so it's easy to see when they're mixed well.

[Logic]

Cutting with Vit C (Ascorbic Acid) reduce MB to a clear form called Lyco MB if I remember correctly.
As I recall this form goes to body cells better than brain cells and people have said it gives better physical energy and less mental effects, but do check on this.

The above fact makes Vit C (Ascorbic Acid) great for getting rid of those inevitable MB stains!

Edited by Logic, 16 April 2013 - 11:22 AM.

[niner]

Cutting with Vit C (Ascorbic Acid) reduce MB to a clear form called Lyco MB if I remember correctly.
As I recall this form goes to body cells better than brain cells and people have said it gives better physical energy and less mental effects, but do check on this.

I think Leuco MB gets into the brain better. The makers of Rember, the MB formulation intended to treat Alzheimer's, have switched to the Leuco form, which lets them use a lower dose. One of our members tried making leuco MB by reacting MB with Vitamin C in solution, and it took a long time to react. That makes me think it won't happen to much of an extent in the solid phase.

Noobie, if you could try mixing the two in solution and let us know how it works, that would be cool. You'll need 2.5 times as many grams of ascorbic acid as MB, because ascorbic acid is a lighter molecule. If you get it to turn clear, that's the leuco form, which is better than plain MB.

[8lu3]

Noobie, if you could try mixing the two in solution and let us know how it works, that would be cool. You'll need 2.5 times as many grams of ascorbic acid as MB, because ascorbic acid is a lighter molecule. If you get it to turn clear, that's the leuco form, which is better than plain MB.

I will not be able to do the capping method until I return from my holidays, but I could add the MB and Vit C to liquid.

If I made up 100ml solution of 6g MB + 15g Vit C added to 100ml water or how difficult would it be to weigh 60mg MB and 150mg Vit C and just add to a glass of water.

Is ascorbic acid prefered over the other forms?

Edited by noobie, 16 April 2013 - 03:02 PM.

[HappyPhysicist]

I have just read through this forum, admittedly very quickly, so feel free to slap me if I say something that is obviously contradicted by an earlier post reference.

I still can't find a source for the 60 microgram reference. The number that keeps popping up for me is 4 mg/kg/rat for demonstrated improved memory. Allometric scaling to humans would make this approximately 1 mg/kg/human, which is much different from the 60 mcg, i.e., 0.060 mg/human or even 0.060 mg/kg/human.

The problem is that MB dose is critical and allometric scaling is not guaranteed to be accurate. Any dose we try is going to be a shot in the dark.

There may be a way to solve this experimentally by performing short term memory tests after taking different doses. In theory we can find the optimal human dose in this manner.

Another confounding factor is the purity of our various sources of MB, but if we might be able to find the best dose for each of us given our particular supply of MB.

We just need to find a good short term memory test that we can perform repeatedly, i.e., some large bank of memory tests.

[niner]

Noobie, if you could try mixing the two in solution and let us know how it works, that would be cool. You'll need 2.5 times as many grams of ascorbic acid as MB, because ascorbic acid is a lighter molecule. If you get it to turn clear, that's the leuco form, which is better than plain MB.

If I made up 100ml solution of 6g MB + 15g Vit C added to 100ml water or how difficult would it be to weigh 60mg MB and 150mg Vit C and just add to a glass of water.

Is ascorbic acid prefered over the other forms?

I'd start with a relatively small amount until you know that it works. It's not that hard to weight 60mg if you have a milligram (or even centigram) scale. If you have a less sensitive weighing device, then you might want to use a larger amount. You might have a little trouble getting 21 grams of stuff to dissolve in 100 ml water. Might want to go a bit more dilute, although both of these compounds are pretty soluble so maybe it would be ok.

I don't think that the form would matter as long as you have a water soluble form. I'd avoid the ester form. Either ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate ought to work.

[niner]

I have just read through this forum, admittedly very quickly, so feel free to slap me if I say something that is obviously contradicted by an earlier post reference.

I still can't find a source for the 60 microgram reference. The number that keeps popping up for me is 4 mg/kg/rat for demonstrated improved memory. Allometric scaling to humans would make this approximately 1 mg/kg/human, which is much different from the 60 mcg, i.e., 0.060 mg/human or even 0.060 mg/kg/human.

The problem is that MB dose is critical and allometric scaling is not guaranteed to be accurate. Any dose we try is going to be a shot in the dark.

There may be a way to solve this experimentally by performing short term memory tests after taking different doses. In theory we can find the optimal human dose in this manner.

Another confounding factor is the purity of our various sources of MB, but if we might be able to find the best dose for each of us given our particular supply of MB.

We just need to find a good short term memory test that we can perform repeatedly, i.e., some large bank of memory tests.

No slap; if anything I'd say that you should win a cigar. There is no reference for the 60 mcg dose. It was pulled out of a cocked hat a long while back, and it just kind of "caught on", like an Internet meme. Many of us have tried it and find it does nothing. Others claim amazing fantastic results. I'm suspicious of placebo effects here, since there is no known (or even hypothesized) mechanism for effects from MB at an LSD-like dose. Atamna used something closer to 60mg in his MB mitochondrial paper, and that was also the dose used in the Rember trials.

[HappyPhysicist]

Niner,

Thanks, 60 mg makes sense. I weigh 80 kg so 80 mg would make sense. I notice some human studies are using around 200 mg, for instance this post traumatic stress disorder study:

http://clinicaltrial...e blue&rank=22.

There is an alternative to the traditional allometric scaling which uses body surface area:

http://www.fasebj.or...t/22/3/659.full

Which gives the man/rat ratio of about 1/6, so 4 mg/kg/rat would come out to 0.67 mg/kg/human, so for someone a little heavier than me, say a 90 kg person, that would come out to 60 mg.

When I get my batch I'll start with say 20 mg, they work my way up to 200 mg or so, taking a memory test each day. I just need to find a good memory test.

By the way I am doing this because of a study that shows MB can dissolve a protein (TDP 43) that accumulates in the motor neurons of people with ALS.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/23567652.

Edited by HappyPhysicist, 18 April 2013 - 02:15 AM.

[niner]

Looks like more MB will be better. They used 600 uM in the c. elegans model, a relatively high concentration. MB was used at something like a half gram dose for malaria. You may need to look at doses along those lines. A recent malaria trial used 780mg/day, in a divided dose.

[david ellis]

There is a cautionary tale on Turnbuckle's profile page(item 13) I was one of the homeopathic MB dose folks. No effect noticed. I did blame MB for a day or two, but that effect was caused by another supplement cancelling my methylphenidate.

[8lu3]

I'd start with a relatively small amount until you know that it works. It's not that hard to weight 60mg if you have a milligram (or even centigram) scale. If you have a less sensitive weighing device, then you might want to use a larger amount. You might have a little trouble getting 21 grams of stuff to dissolve in 100 ml water. Might want to go a bit more dilute, although both of these compounds are pretty soluble so maybe it would be ok.

I don't think that the form would matter as long as you have a water soluble form. I'd avoid the ester form. Either ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate ought to work.

I added 0.03g MB to 100ml of water and added 0.075g of vit C.

The solution remained blue; I then added 2 tsp of Vit C to the solution, it remained blue but clearer

is the solution supposed to be crystal clear?

[8lu3]

I added 0.03g MB to 100ml of water and added 0.075g of vit C.

The solution remained blue; I then added 2 tsp of Vit C to the solution, it remained blue but clearer

is the solution supposed to be crystal clear?

On returning after previous post, the solution was clear. I took small sip but to much ascorbic acid.

I have made another measurment:

0.03g MB
0.075g Ascorbic acid
0.0375g Sodium bicarbonate
50ml water

It was blue (I shall wait to see if it becomes clear).

[8lu3]

On returning after previous post, the solution was clear. I took small sip but to much ascorbic acid.

I have made another measurment:

0.03g MB
0.075g Ascorbic acid
0.0375g Sodium bicarbonate
50ml water

It was blue (I shall wait to see if it becomes clear).

OK solution has remained a dark blue.

Suggestions please.

[niner]

try it without the bicarbonate. Maybe add the bicarbonate after it turns clear? You might need a larger excess of ascorbic acid, although the large amount you added the time it turned completely clear is probably more than you need. In order to neutralize the ascorbic acid, the mass of the bicarbonate needs to be a little more than half the mass of the ascorbic acid. You hit that pretty close, but might want a pinch more.

This reaction seems to be slow for some reason. Usually that sort of thing is quick. rwac saw the same slowness.

[rwac]

Ascorbic acid will reduce the MB and exposure to air will re-oxidize the Leuco-MB. So keep it in a closed bottle to reduce exposure to oxygen. shaking a bottle will often bring some blue back.

[malbecman]

The formation of the leuco-MB has been shown a lot in science classes as a demonstration of redox chemistry. It's called the classic blue-bottle experiment. Even has a Wikepedia entry

http://en.wikipedia....emical_reaction)


Here is one description of it

The original ‘blue bottle’ experiment comprises the blue-coloured redox indicator dye methylene blue, MB, dissolved in a glucose solution, all sealed in a bottle with a reasonable headspace, so that when shaken the solution is thoroughly aerated. When left to sit, the solution decolourises, due to the reduction of MB to its reduced form, leuco-methylene blue, LMB, by the deprotonated glucose present, Glu⁻. When shaken, the solution turns blue due to the oxidation of LMB to MB by the dissolved oxygen originating from the headspace. The ‘blue bottle’ experiment is a classic laboratory experiment, often used to illustrate that much can be deduced about reaction mechanisms by observation alone.^2–6 Notable variations on the ‘blue bottle’ experiment have been reported by others and the kinetics associated with the different processes have been well documented.^3–6 A summary of the key reactions involved in the classic, non-photochemical blue bottle experiment are illustrated in Fig. 1, SCHEME 1. It is worth noting that the protonated form of glucose , GluH, does not readily reduce MB, thus, in the absence of alkali, the ‘blue bottle’ experiment doesn't work, and the solution remains blue indefinitely upon standing.


edit for formatting

Edited by malbecman, 18 April 2013 - 11:02 PM.

[8lu3]

This time I added 1gm MB to 100ml of water (Batch 1). I took 1ml from this batch and added to 50ml of water (batch 2).

I added 2.5g of ascorbic acid to batch 1.

I added 25mg of ascorbic acid to batch 2.

After approx 30 - 40min batch 1 remained blue, but batch 2 became clear like water.

After several hours there was no change in batch 1.

I noticed no difference in consuming 10mg of MB with ascorbic acid.

Tomorrow I shall try 30mg MB in a cup of water with ascorbic acid.


Rather than adding 2.5 times the amount of vit c to the MB; would adding 500 - 1000mg vit c to the final dilution be suffice.

I plan on making a suitable dilution of MB in a 100ml bottle and adding 1ml to a 8oz cup of water each morning with 500 - 1000mg vit c.

Would that be too much vit c for the MB?

[Logic]

I don't think its necessary to try and get a completely blue solution Noobie, as both forms are effective.
I would just go with adding the dosage of Vit C I wanted to the dosage of MB I wanted, seal the full container to avoid air oxidation, and forget about the colour it turns out to be.

I just remembered that I used a bottle of commercial Lemon Juice from the fridge to 'clear' MB stains on a plastic counter-top. That probably contains more citric acid than ascorbic acid...
Perhaps Citric Acid (or something else in the commercial lemon juice) does a better job of permanently reducing MB? Perhaps it dissolved and wiped up the stain rather than reducing the MB??

[niner]

This time I added 1gm MB to 100ml of water (Batch 1). I took 1ml from this batch and added to 50ml of water (batch 2).

I added 2.5g of ascorbic acid to batch 1.

I added 25mg of ascorbic acid to batch 2.

After approx 30 - 40min batch 1 remained blue, but batch 2 became clear like water.

After several hours there was no change in batch 1.

This might just be a concentration effect- Maybe you're getting 99% conversion (or something like that) in both cases, but the remaining 1% still looks blue in the higher concentration case because there's more MB there.

Rather than adding 2.5 times the amount of vit c to the MB; would adding 500 - 1000mg vit c to the final dilution be suffice.

I plan on making a suitable dilution of MB in a 100ml bottle and adding 1ml to a 8oz cup of water each morning with 500 - 1000mg vit c.

Would that be too much vit c for the MB?

I don't think there's such a thing as too much vitamin C for the MB, but there might be too much vitamin C for your teeth. I don't think there would be any problem if that amount of ascorbic acid were capped. You could neutralize it with sodium bicarbonate, but then you'd be getting a lot of sodium. Also, if you really want to get the leuco form, it looks like it's going to take some time to react, but maybe your point of the excess C is to speed it up?

[HappyPhysicist]

For those interested in trying the memory test experiment to see if MB is doing anything for you here is a good one:

http://neutralx0.net/home/mini04.html

I havent started MB yet but apparently I have a lousy short term memory, I can't get past level 2. Maximum # of pictures I can remember is 3. I have been doing this test once a day for the last 3 days and my max is pretty consistent.

Edited by HappyPhysicist, 21 April 2013 - 01:52 PM.

[HappyPhysicist]

I purchased my MB from fischer scientific but the COA is pretty opaque. Says "DYE concentration 83%", does that mean 13% impurities? If so there is no mention of what they may be.

Attached Files

•  Screen Shot 2013-04-22 at 10.52.09 AM.png   90.69KB   9 downloads

Edited by HappyPhysicist, 22 April 2013 - 03:02 PM.