492 replies to this topic

[Novabrain]

IN the 60s Americans thought LSD to be messiah, to be God. But as LSD is not God, the same way MB is not Messiah. And I found out that the real value of MB is its antidepressant properties. The same way as alcohol creates a kind of wall between you and reality - the protevtive wall i mean - the same way MB creates such a wall by changing your perception to - let me say - more nice vision of reality which is explained by its antidepressant properies. That's why first time you may feel like it is a nooptrope. Of course, no doubt, if you feel well you think better. However it does not increase speed of thinking, nor it increases your IQ. After a while you get accustomed to that "protective wall" and the feeling of well-being but actually your life remaines "a kind of shit" coz the actual level of your life depends on your salary and social well-being and probably love and nice feeling. So as soon as you are accustomed to MB it become just an antidepressant and probably a life-extender which is not yet proved. But as far as it's nootropic properties are concerned it's greatly doubtful.
The other aspect is its ability to help against sleepiness. This effect is observed also only during the first days of taking it but soon it diminished and almost disappear. And it's true that 1.15 mg dose causes tension in chest and probably bad for heart and probably causes high blood pressure. I reduced dose to 300 mcg and now feel better. However if you are going to have an unpleasant talk with your boss prepare to take no less than 1.15 mg dose and after that you can shout on your boss and throw papers into his face without any consequences coz he will think are completely mad and will be sorry for you. That's the MB action.
I would also claim that it is antinootropic at high doses like 1.15. In the morning i took noopept and started rearing a very hard-to-understand book and I understood everything - it was easy to read. I was fully absorbed. I felt like 20 years younger. And imagine - the time comes to take MB. I take MB and what happens? I return to reading but i find that i cannot understand anything anymore! what a shit- i say. And then I gradually begin to understand that if you are already OK then taking MB will only spoil your perception and cognition. That actually it is not nootropic but just and an antidepressant protective wall. So folks, think twice or thrice before taking it. Think about the current situation you are in.

Very interesting Dan!

Hadn't thought of MB in terms of antidepressant properties...
it does seem to me to have consciousness/awareness brightening properties, but also creates a kind of "trance", which may correspond to what you mean by antidepressant properties. I see the trance-effect as related to "help against sleepiness" also, as while my energy may be down I don't feel "edgy, ragged"... I will still feel a "flow".

The same antidepressant properties may help me in concentration as I don't feel as restless, am more patient. And that effect could be deemed nootropic.

Interesting what you say about noopept, as I have just ordered some and am looking forward to trying it.

So is MB a nootropic or a nice dope? Perhaps I do find some complex elaboration of thought, a higher dimensionality of thought, but not a "speeding up of thought" (as you say). More of an easy slow-motion kind of view... but higher dimensional nevertheless. Which I can see as "smarter", actually... as lending to greater creative potential. Speed isn't everything. But I need more exploration with my brain on MB, as have only been using for about two weeks. I do find it very interesting stuff. And I have been using every kind of nootropic I can get my hands on for close to 20 years. Also, what else is in the mix? It is not just MB by itself that I am evaluating, by how it compliments other things. I am experimenting with adderal, aniracetam, oxiracetam, modafinil, hydergine, etc. in conjunction with MB and each other.

I will say that MB does not seem to me to be merely an antidepressant in the sense of cymbalta, celexa, prozac, etc, as MB does have a distinct "enlivening" of consciousness for me. I do experience an "up" with MB, not just a "smoothing" as with celexa, buspar, or propranolol. But the "up" is not like that of stimulant medications such as amphetamines. It is more of a "flow" kind of up, soft and smooth.

I think your cautions are appropriate, Dan, as what MB is doing to our consciousness may be much more complex than it seems, and we can easily deluded, as you suggest. Important to be attentive and reflective... this is not an easy substance to understand by any means... (or so it seems to me).

[Novabrain]

I've also noticed a "detachment effect" with MB. Perceptual phenomena seem less gripping because consciousness itself comes to have a vital presence in its own right... as if consciousness itself becomes "reality" and able to stand on its own. So something that might normally catch my eye will still catch my eye but on MB whatever it is is easily relinquished. It is as if the "world around me" isn't so real, just a source for content. The luminous vibrance is somehow sufficient.

I see the "fear reduction" factor some have mentioned as being a side effect of the detachment phenomenon. And I see this too as a possible explanation of a capacity for enhanced boldness in speaking the truth.

While I don't understand the part about "as if consciousness itself becomes "reality" and able to stand on its own."

Thanks, will try to clarify. I mean such a vividness to consciousness itself, as if consciousness is a "field" in which I am immersed, and what is "going on" in that field, that is the content of experience, seems as if secondary. Like you are in the ocean at the beach and while there are many other swimmers around you, inner-tubes, etc., perhaps you are primarily experiencing the aqueous medium in which you are suspended, that you are experiencing the rhythmic movement of the water and your body moving with that... whereas the seagull just now flying overhead is relatively secondary.

Is that making sense? No so easy to describe.

The remainder sounds pretty much like the antidepressant properties Dan Brown mentioned a few posts above mine. Antidepressants (Wellbutrin certainly does and as far as I can recollect, Venlafaxine did so too to some degree) have precisely that effect on me - stimuli still register but are easier to ignore. This is particularly true for sexual attraction in my case. ("She's hot and seems to like me.... I wonder.... Aaaanyway, I need to get this done now"), but also more negative stimuli, sort of if someone's bitching at you, it becomes much easier to tune them out (almost too easy, where it gets to the point of them starting to accuse of zoning out on them).

On that note, have you any experience with any of the major ADs, Dan Brown? How would you compare MB?

As I said to Dan, "antidepressant properties" seems accurate but incomplete in describing my experiences with MB so far. But I have much exploration to do yet.

[Novabrain]

I've also noticed a "detachment effect" with MB. Perceptual phenomena seem less gripping because consciousness itself comes to have a vital presence in its own right... as if consciousness itself becomes "reality" and able to stand on its own. So something that might normally catch my eye will still catch my eye but on MB whatever it is is easily relinquished. It is as if the "world around me" isn't so real, just a source for content. The luminous vibrance is somehow sufficient.

I see the "fear reduction" factor some have mentioned as being a side effect of the detachment phenomenon. And I see this too as a possible explanation of a capacity for enhanced boldness in speaking the truth.

Derealization, perhaps?

Do you mean by "derealization" a kind of separation from reality, the separation being the detachment I mention?

If so, I would ask, "What is reality?" Perhaps the field of consciousness in which the "world appears" is itself reality, and the "world" is more of a fiction, or at least not a "hard reality" as commonly supposed. Perhaps MB can have an effect of "loosening the mind" in its interpretation of experience, so that what is "reality" becomes rather ambiguous, a range of possibilities rather than some precisely chiseled unity.

[MrHappy]

One other important point, regarding the anti-depressant effects:

There is no addiction or dependancy created by MB, unlike other popular anti-depressants. You can stop taking MB and there are no withdrawal-like symptoms.

That's pretty significant.

@Dan Brown: Regarding the effects occuring for you only in the initial stages - I'm not sure if other people have been thinking along these lines, but if the effects of MB are 'curative' or 'protective' (repairing mitochondrial function, enhancing neural pathways, etc), rather than just a short-term change of perception (eg. typical SRRI), perhaps after a few weeks, your un-dosed state of mind has been 'repaired' to a healthy state. You probably can't improve/repair much beyond a certain level of 'neural efficiency'.

I've noticed that if I stop taking MB for a day, I'm still feeling sharp, calm and happy. I haven't yet switched off MB for long enough to see how many days/weeks that state is maintained after the last dose.That will be another experiment in the near future - to see how often a 'maintenance dose' is needed to stay at a healthy / elevated state.

[FDA Approved]

After drinking somewhere between 50 and 100 micrograms (3 hours ago) I can def say that there is a lot of detachment from reality going on. Its kindda nice.
P.S. Sorry for the double post, couldnt edit the previous one again.

Edited by FDA Approved, 03 September 2011 - 07:50 PM.

[MrHappy]

@FDA Approved: I'd suggest a 'wash-out' period, perhaps every weekend, to help guard against developing a tolerence. Alternatively, stick to a once-a-day dose.

[MrHappy]

After drinking somewhere between 50 and 100 micrograms (3 hours ago) I can def say that there is a lot of detachment from reality going on. Its kindda nice.
P.S. Sorry for the double post, couldnt edit the previous one again.

Even from 60mcg?

What colour was the glass of water after you put 1mL of the 'intermediate' solution into it?

[Reptar123]

So can I buy this substance at the nearest pet store? Can I stack it with piracetam, and do I just drink a daily dose in the morning or night?

[unregistered_user]

You can take it with piracetam, although piracetam is a known potentiator of other substances. You might strongly consider first dosing MB at the recommended dosages before adding piracetam. I took both but eventually stopped due to chest tension and discomfort. I'm not saying that taking the piracetam WITH the MB caused that... but in the interest in full disclosure I'm letting you know why I stopped.

[MrHappy]

So can I buy this substance at the nearest pet store? Can I stack it with piracetam, and do I just drink a daily dose in the morning or night?

Yes. Yes. I'd suggest either 2-3 times a day with a weekend washout or once a day. Should help prevent tolerance issues.

[aaaa]

I tried MB 80mcg 3x/day for a week.I can't tell any difference.So I stop it

[unregistered_user]

(chuckle) good to see you back, SRI I still maintain it was your experiments above 2mg that gave you chest pains. I took a break because I was concerned that at 1mg, the MAO-I effect was screwing with my reward perception. I was right. Edit: damn Phone typos

I haven't stopped monitoring this thread for other user's progress. I believe you're right about the dosage. Right now I am taking 2-3mg of Deprenyl per day with high dose piracetam and fish oil. I haven't been able to dose at the amounts I want with the piracetam due to only having a 100g pouch.... but I have a kg on the way from Cerebral Health. I am endeavoring to find out just how effective high dose fish oil and piracetam can be, especially after seeing some of kassem's posts around here. I'm thinking about doing about 15g per day of each. I know this seems high and you probably think I have a propensity for extremes but I've only ever tested smaller doses (apart from an initial attack dose).

How does MB impact your reward center? Did you experience pleasure seeking behavior? How have your results been? Is MB something you'll keep in your regimen?

Sorry for the tangential post. I just notice this thread stays right at the top of the forum so I like to pop in and see how MB testers are doing.

[EncyclopediaBrown]

Well the increased seratonin levels were the culprit, thanks to the MAO-I effect. Since I was already 'happy/rewarded', I found my libido waning and I wasn't seeking pleasure or comfort from my wife. Instead, I was seeking cognitive stimulation. It was like taking a mild version of amphetamines/adderall without the rush.

Given that I am 99% certain that the delayed senescence is because of the NOS-I effect, I think I will obtain that elsewhere and might reduce my MB intake to perhaps once every few weeks. One thing that I have noticed is that the enhanced cogntive effects have persisted a week after stopping MB, suggesting the effect is obtained from repairing existing cells and pathways. Of course this was not immediately apparent owing to suffering 'empty brain' monoamine withdrawal symptoms for the first 5 days. I think a periodic maintenance dose is the way forward, without generating tolerance issues to elevated monoamine levels.

Why don't you just cut back to 60mcg three times daily? I haven't taken any breaks with this regimen (12 days) and my libido has been the best it's been in months.

[MrHappy]

It's on the cards to test in a week's time. Equally interesting test for you - in a week's time, stop taking MB for a full week and take note of any flu or withdrawal symptoms you may have.

[EncyclopediaBrown]

It's on the cards to test in a week's time. Equally interesting test for you - in a week's time, stop taking MB for a full week and take note of any flu or withdrawal symptoms you may have.

Darn it, I am really liking this stuff. I'll stop taking it next week for a full week and report back.

[Krell]

I am taking 300ug MB, 4x per day, for a total of 1.2mg/day.

When I started ingesting MB about 6 weeks ago, I put a drop of 0.12% solution
(1.2 grams MB powder in 1 liter of water) on a toenail that had a fungus infection
for about 2 years. I thought that if MB cured fish fungus it might work on toenails.
I had taken lamasil for 2 months about a year ago with no improvement.

Now my toenail is growing out clear
with no sign of fungus infection! I am not sure if it was the direct
application (it turned my nail blue for a couple of weeks) or my
ingesting it, or both.

YMMV

Edited by Krell, 10 September 2011 - 06:38 PM.

[Adamzski]

Im off to the Aquarium shop to grab some today.

I will take one undiluted drop twice per day, is this 1.2mg per dose?

Im only takeing a bodybuilding sup at the moment with

Betaine Hydrochloride 2 g
Taurine (micronized) 2 g
N-Acetyl-L-Glutamine 1.1 g
Creatine Blend: Kre-Alkalyn® 1.5g Creatine Ethyl Ester 1.1g Tri-Creatine Malate 1.5g
NO Power Blend 4000mg: Arginine Alpha Ketoglutarate, Arginine Ethyl Ester Dihydrochloride.
HorsePower Blend 5800mg: Beta-Alanine, Glycerol Monostearate, Medium Chain Triglycerides, Citrulline Ethyl Ester Malate, L-Norvaline, Guanidinopropionic Acid, Gynostemma Pentaphyllum, Ornithine Alpha Ketoglutarate, Arginine Ketoisocaproate, R-Alpha Lipoic Acid

Anything wrong to mix with it here? Beta-Alanine or the high AAKG maybe?

Wow if this stuff works it will be great, Its hard and expensive to get things like racetams in AU

[Adamzski]

Got it from the Aquarium shop, went across the road, bought a bottle of water and dropped a drop in it, I was surprised to see the dark blue drop spill into the water and streak to the bottom, a few shakes and the water was an aqua blue. downed it and instantly felt a placebo effect maybe.... I felt weird but focussed, placebo it would have to be. I went to a shop and bought some takeaway food wasting about 15min. On my long walk home I felt strange, my mind was quieter and I felt happier, looking at the ground gives a strange sensation, everything looked clearer, my social phobias were there but could be ignored more easily and I noticed small visual details that I usually would not.

Well placebo effects or not, I will see if this can improve my work performance and learning abilities. Im off to Korean class in a few hours and I have plenty brain intensive work to do here so we will see.

Im in Australia and my MB is 12mg/ml

It says to use .25ml 5 drops per litre of water in aquariums, somehow I take this as being 1 drop = .6mg.

when I got home I used a syringe to measure .05ml thinking that this is .6mg
I will be taking .10ml of it twice per day

Edited by Adamzski, 12 September 2011 - 06:20 AM.

[Adamzski]

I took another .03ml before class, helped some maybe but its very challenging for me to learn this language, this did not give me much help.
I feel more focused and able to do my work better with a clearer mind.

[MrHappy]

It's not an 'instafix'. You need to take it for a week or so to improve cognitive ability. The 'focus' is likely just the extra monoamines sloshing around your head. That effect will lessen as you develop a tolerance. I'd suggest 2 weeks and then stop for at least a week and reassess.

Edited by MrHappy, 12 September 2011 - 10:29 PM.

[Adamzski]

I have been playing visual only nback today this one http://cognitivefun.net/test/4 and have started to hold the picture in my mind instead of saying to myself "dog, ball, heart etc" something I have never done before. Have not improved scores thou so yeah no instafix but it is something new to me to be able to hold these pictures in my mind.

[Adamzski]

6 days now, lost my syringe so it cant be helping my memory too much, I am just putting two undiluted drops now and drinking once per day.
I have done a lot over this weekend, might be helping, will see soon

[maxwatt]

The effect I've experienced from an 800 mcg dose doesn't feel like MAO inhibition. I find that on a stationary bike with an ergometer, I'm producing about 10% more watts with MB than without. I'm not seeing anything that I could describe as psychotropic.

? what kind of stationary bike/ergonometer? 10% margin of error is not unusual for all but lab quality bikes. The power-tap meters built into bike wheels claim 5%. And why 800 mcg?

The 1.2 to 1.4 mg dose calculated to give whole-body concentration for a 60 to 70kg man consistent with a\Ames study findings, seems to me it would give uneven levels in different body tissues. As the difference between effective dose and ove dose, giving opposite effects, is not that great I find it troubling.

I found that 1.4 mg definitely felt counter productive, slow and unfocused. Much more energetic without. Lower doses by factor of 10 improved bike performance as measured by time; I will have to retest this week. But I fear MB may be not for general use, if the effective dosage range is too narrow.

Edited by chrono, 10 October 2011 - 10:48 PM.

[niner]

? what kind of stationary bike/ergonometer? 10% margin of error is not unusual for all but lab quality bikes. The power-tap meters built into bike wheels claim 5%. And why 800 mcg?

The 1.2 to 1.4 mg dose calculated to give whole-body concentration for a 60 to 70kg man consistent with a\Ames study findings, seems to me it would give uneven levels in different body tissues. As the difference between effective dose and ove dose, giving opposite effects, is not that great I find it troubling.

I found that 1.4 mg definitely felt counter productive, slow and unfocused. Much more energetic without. Lower doses by factor of 10 improved bike performance as measured by time; I will have to retest this week. But I fear MB may be not for general use, if the effective dosage range is too narrow.

We have a couple different brands of bikes at my gym, and I'm pretty sure they vary between makes by more than 10% on the watt measurement. However, my trials with and without MB were on the same bike, so it's probably legitimate. Any dose of MB should partition through the body according to the hydrophobicity, redox potential, and pH of the individual microenvironments. It seems to me that until you took enough to perturb something, (which I'd think would need to be a pretty giant dose), you should see the same ratio of concentrations between different compartments. I played around with dosage, starting at 250 ug, and raising it by 250 ug steps up to about 2mg. I "thought I felt something" at the low end of this range, although it was probably a placebo effect and was nothing special at any rate. The results with the bike were a bit of a surprise, in that I was beginning to think that it wasn't doing anything. I did notice one other thing; normally if I crouch down on the ground, then stand up quickly, I can start feeling hypotensive. MB seems to ameliorate this effect to some extent. TBH I'm not sure why I settled on 800 ug... When I was doing the initial dose ranging, I didn't think anything was happening at the higher end, but I was looking for the sort of psychotropic bang that some other people seemed to be getting. I suppose I should try some more dose experiments using the bike as a test device. I looked around for some pharmaceutical MB, but eventually I succumbed and got a bottle of Kordon fish medicine. It's probably ok, but I don't exactly have a CoA, so I'm not anxious to play with high doses. I wonder what dose Atamna would recommend, and if he uses it himself?

[Logan]

So, anyone just taking MB one time in the morning? I'm curious to know if effects will eventually build and then last throughout the day with one time dosing. Anyone?

[Logan]

We need an extended release version of this stuff, something that will cover a good 14 hours. I hate being dependent on something that I have to dose 2 or 3 times a day. Man, I would love to just go back feeling and functioning as I was 4 years ago, no need to mitochondrial enhancement then.

[thedevinroy]

So, anyone just taking MB one time in the morning? I'm curious to know if effects will eventually build and then last throughout the day with one time dosing. Anyone?

Yeah if you take a micro pipette or dropper, drop one drop into a glass, dump the rest back into the solution, and then clean the dropper out with the water, this will last all day into the next for me. This is a 2.303% solution.

[manic_racetam]

I can't seem to achieve the blue pee state. I know it's not the point but I've always had this curious desire for colorful urine (not a strong desire or anything, it just sounds kind of cool). I started at 1 drop and have increased all the way up to 10 today with no change in urine color. It seemed like one day with six drops I had a slight (very slight) green tint. Does this mean my kidney function is down or something?

I remember quite a few people claiming coloration at 1-2mgs. I think that must be a gross exaggeration or else there must be something wrong with my body.

[unregistered_user]

Or something wrong with their bodies? I was taking 7mg/day for a few consecutive days and didn't really notice a change in color in my urine. It certainly didn't turn blue. I think the only changes I observed were due to taking a multi.

Edit: When you say you were taking 10 drops, do you mean 10 undiluted drops straight from the bottle?

Edited by semi-retarded-individual, 10 October 2011 - 01:24 AM.

[manic_racetam]

Or something wrong with their bodies? I was taking 7mg/day for a few consecutive days and didn't really notice a change in color in my urine. It certainly didn't turn blue. I think the only changes I observed were due to taking a multi.

Edit: When you say you were taking 10 drops, do you mean 10 undiluted drops straight from the bottle?

Yeah, exactly. 10 undiluted drops of the Kordon Blue.

Edited by manic_racetam, 10 October 2011 - 01:44 AM.