492 replies to this topic

[amark]

I am still alive! Still taking 100 mg of mb a day. No problems. For me it seems to work synergisticly with Lyrica.

But now I have a hankering for really really tall women and I keep watching the DVD of Avatar over and over again...

[smithx]

So does anyone have any conclusive data on whether this stuff is safe, or should I order from some other source?

If the latter, what's a reliable source?

I just got some methylene blue chloride, CAS 7220-78-3, which I believe to be the same as the methylene blue anhydrous CAS 61-73-4, but with 3(H20) on each molecule.

It states on the bottle that it is "Basic Blue 9 ; Swiss Blue" is certified by the Biological Stain Commission (although I can't find the cert # on their site), and that the dye content is 83%. I assume the rest is water.

Does this sound like the right stuff? I ordered it because I thought it would be more pure, being certified.

It's methylene blue alright. The trouble is, I don't know what it means to be certified by the BSC. Does it mean it's safe to ingest, or does it mean it's the right color? If it was USP (P=Pharmacopeia) grade, then I'd say it was ok. This stuff might be ok... maybe someone knows. If you include the chloride ion in the calculation, then it's theoretically 78% MB by weight. If you just take the 3 waters into account, it's 85.5% If that's how they're defining it, then there's a couple percent of other stuff in there, which could just be extra water, or who knows what...

[Metrodorus]

Reading through this forum and the various dosages, against the dosages recorded to have positive hormetic effects in small mammals,
I have a question: Why are not dosages given here in micrograms per kilo of body mass? 60 micrograms with no reference to body mass is going to lead to wildly different dosing in different individuals, if the calculation does not include body mass.
60mcg/kg-1 for a 65kg person - 3900 mcg per diem
60mcg/kg--1 for a 91kg peson 5460 mcg per diem

60 micrograms is a tiny dose of MB, unless it was supposed to be 60mcg/kg-1 , so a 70kg person would take a dosage of 4200mcg.
This seems to correspond to the experimental dosages in the literature.
This would bring the dosage more or less into the same area as those taking a 1000 mcg dose 2 or three times a day.

Any thoughts?

[Metrodorus]

Well first, you said that you put 20 drops into the first 30 mL solution. In the post I posted, it says to put 40 drops in the first solution. which is 2 dropper fulls. In each dropper, 20 drops equals one mL, and there is supposed to be 2 mL of 2.3% methylene blue in the first solution, hence 40 drops.
.

Hi Aaron, This isn't a very rigorous way of doing the dilutions. All this business with drops estimated will lead to quite large margins of error in the final dilution, depending on the aperture size of the dropper, the temperature on the day, and anything that will affect the surface tension of the droplet.

Better to dilute it down gradually in a controlled series of dilutions using unit volumes - any unit volume will do, you just need to buy a 1mL plastic pipette or syringe for the final dosing - cheap enough - they cost pennies. The dilutions themselves need no high-tech equipment. A shot glass will do.

If your first solution is 2.3%, that is 2.3g/100mL of water
Each dilution is a 10% dilution, one parts of the prior solution, to nine parts of water.
So:
1.)One unit volume of the 2.3g/100mL solution, into 9 unit volumes of water
will give a new solution of 0.23g/100mL

2.)Take one unit volume of this new dilution, and add to it 9 unit volumes of water:
This will give a new solution of 0.023g/100mL
one mL of this dilution will provide 0.00023g of MB (2.3 milligrams or mg), about the right dose for a 90kg human wishing to dose in the mg range. Half a mL of this dilution would be better if you are not so large.

You need to do a third dilution if you want to dose in micrograms:

3.)Take one unit volume of this new solution, and add to it 9 unit volumes of water.
This will give a new solution of 0.0023g/100mL

ONE mL of this final dilution will contain 0.000,023g of MB i.e. 23mcg

Information on diluting solutions.

[anomalous3]

Reading through this forum and the various dosages, against the dosages recorded to have positive hormetic effects in small mammals,
I have a question: Why are not dosages given here in micrograms per kilo of body mass? 60 micrograms with no reference to body mass is going to lead to wildly different dosing in different individuals, if the calculation does not include body mass.
60mcg/kg-1 for a 65kg person - 3900 mcg per diem
60mcg/kg--1 for a 91kg peson 5460 mcg per diem

60 micrograms is a tiny dose of MB, unless it was supposed to be 60mcg/kg-1 , so a 70kg person would take a dosage of 4200mcg.
This seems to correspond to the experimental dosages in the literature.
This would bring the dosage more or less into the same area as those taking a 1000 mcg dose 2 or three times a day.

Any thoughts?

For many compounds the effective dose per body-weight measurement is about 5x higher for mice than it is for humans because mice have such a fast metabolic rate.

[Metrodorus]

Yes, I am aware of this, but it still does not take into account the wide variability in body mass in human subjects.

[manic_racetam]

Yes, I am aware of this, but it still does not take into account the wide variability in body mass in human subjects.

I 100% agree that this makes no sense. And so far I haven't heard a convincing argument for a blanket dose of 60mcg regardless of body weight.

[niner]

I 100% agree that this makes no sense. And so far I haven't heard a convincing argument for a blanket dose of 60mcg regardless of body weight.

I haven't heard a convincing argument for the 60mcg dose period, regardless of body weight. I think it was just pulled out of a cocked hat, and is off by a couple or three orders of magnitude.

[maxwatt]

The 60 mcg dose was based on an estimate of human blood volume, and the amount of MB needed to achieve a concentration in that volume equal to the concentration used on Ames' paper showing mitochondria-sparing properties. It was first published that I know of in the life-extension usenet group. I plead guilty to promulgating the misinformation. If one instead assumes perfussion of all body tissue is needed, then the requisite dose would be an order of magnigude higher, around 600 mcg to 1.2 mg. Based on postings in this forum, I think the results reported with 60 micrograms are placebo, but that higher doses do have a perciptible effect. I found doses significantly more than 750 micrograms led to a jittery unlpeasant mood.. OF course that could be placebo too.

[Metrodorus]

I have now experimented with doses varying between 1000 micrograms and 3000 micrograms per day. The first week, I did have an uncharacteristic jittery mood, as described above, but I persevered and the unpleasant (but not debilitating) mood disappeared completely after 7 days. I have tried my MB in milk, in chinese white tea ( put in after it was strained as the tea leaves would otherwise adsorb the MB (interesting electric green colour), and in water with a bit of sugar (nice colour, just like blue sapphire gin) . It is certainly my most beautiful and entertaining supplement.
I am reluctant to ascribe anything overt to MB at this point, but I will keep taking it, as it appears to be medically benign at these doses, and might actually be doing something good in the long term. I would have been reluctant to take MB if I didn't have a good source of laboratory grade dye.
As I weigh 91kg - and am very low body fat - dosage was a consideration. I am taking MB for its mitochondrial effects, as a supplement along with alpha lipoic acid and acetyl-L-carnitine, which also affect mitochondria. I take a PQQ cap once every 3 days, for the same reason. As I started with these shortly before reading about MB and obtaining some from a lab, I don't know what is causative, and never will, unless I stop MB for a few weeks, and restart.
I cannot say therefore if the MB supplementation has had any effect, that is not caused by the other mitochondrial supplements I use. I can objectively now lift far more mass at the gym for longer, and can do larger numbers of reps continuously on lower weights, with faster recovery times than I could last month, and my body mass has started to climb as a result - it may be possible that the MB is contributing to this overall , though the other supps would I suspect be sufficient alone to give this result. Mentally I cannot detect a significant change, but I doubt that subjectively one would, even if MB was doing what it says on the tin.

[Metrodorus]

As an aside, out of a spirit of curiosity, I made up an aqueous skin cream with a concentration of 200 micrograms/mL MB - quite a rich deep blue color. I used a small 50mL pot of face cream as the substrate. I was curious to see if the MB would be converted to MBH on the skin, or if it would turn my skin blue.

Interestingly, shortly (i.e. 1-2 seconds) after application of a very sparse amount, just enough to lightly coat the skin, the blue color goes away, indicating rapid conversion to MBH. Slightly heavier application of the cream takes a bit longer to convert to MBH.

As mitochondria are apparently significant players in skin ageing, it possibly makes sense to make a skin cream from MB. MBH does not cause photosenitisation, but as a precaution such a cream should probably only be used as a night cream, if you are foolhardy enough to try whipping some up.

Why did I make the cream 200mcg/mL ?

Firstly absorption through the ski is only partial - cf.
http://optics.sgu.ru...04_5486_315.pdf
"Methylene Blue diffusion in skin tissue".
So a reasonably high concentration would be needed to achieve 200 nanograms/mL in the tissue. Secondly, the cream is only applied sparingly.

[maxwatt]

You are a bold soul. BTW, have you considered resveratrol for its mitochondrial neogenesis?

It is possible, that if your other supps are enhancing mitochondrial density and size, it is being reflected in greater muscle mass. But this sounds like a bit of a reach. Is the alpha-lipoic acid racemic, or the R entiomer? If the latter, which salt of ALA? Are you using ALA to counter the ROS generated by use of acetyl-l-carnitine? If so, it's probably unnecessary, as the reported damage only occured with the rodent equivalent of larger doses than a man can ingest.

MB skin cream is novelty. A collegiate prank some of my classmates tried, was to lace someone's bath water with MB. The idea was to turn her skin blue below the waist. Applying it intentionally... well it worked out for you.

[Metrodorus]

Max - the total mass of mitochondria is infinitissimal - versus the mass of an individual cell. Increasing their number/efficiency will impact on the number of repetitions that can be done, and the mass of weight lifted per repetition, and it is this that leads to increased muscle mass, not the mass of the mitochondria themselves.

I do take resveratrol, orally, dissolved in olive oil with cocoa - making a nice creamy chocolate drink in the mornings to start my day.
I discovered that cocoa powder adsorps the olive oil, and resveratrol is oil soluble - when hot water is added to this creamy mixture, a delighfully rich chocolate drink is the result, if suitably sweetened. It is drunk without milk. This is an easy and pleasant way for me to include a reasonably large dose of virgin olive oil in my daily diet.

Given the massive dosages of MB that have been given historically to treat chronic conditions, with few if any side effects documented - so after having read all the literature about MB, I am reasonably satisfied as to its safety. I don't think taking a MB sourced from a reliable supplier, at low doasages of 1000 micrograms, is risky. It seems safer than many common supplements in use, many of which can have side effects in some people.

I am actually more worried about the goitrogeneic effects of excessive consumption of phytochemicals such as resveratrol, ( and quercetin, and fisetin, which I intend at some point to include in my regime) but in a staggered manner, so as not to overload my system with phytochemicals.
Ginseng and Gingko are also Goitrogenic.

re alpha lipoic acid: http://www.sciencedi...00927970100268X
acetyl L carnitine is often paired with alpha lipoic acid in experimental trials
http://www.pnas.org/...99/4/2356.short
Many bodybuilders use this combination.

[Watdh]

After suffering a really good case of chronic fatigue, headache and lack of any ability to concentrate on anything much I tried Methylene Blue with a combination L-Arginine & L-Citrulline supplement. I had read in a study that MB & L-Arginine had been used to inhibit effects of EMF exposure- something to do with Nitric Oxide levels.

About 6 months ago I got a smart meter, I had heard a little of the complaining about them but never ever got much past the headlines because I thought those complainers were nutzo environmentalist. After more nose bleeds in the past few months than I've had in the past 10 years, feeling like I have a brick on my chest, headaches, not wanting to do anything more than absolutely necessary & a total lack concentration a google search took me to smart meters. My meter is on a pole far a way from the house & transmits through the lines. I really thought it would be no concern of mine but then I read it's the constant stepping up & down of the electricity that causes your house to become a low frequency microwave oven. Then I remembered along that time I could no longer run a RCA cable from my laptop to my receiver to play itunes even with a filter (thinking it was broke I went & got another) and tried using filters at both ends and in less than 1 minute it would be going haywire. So please don't try to say there is no EMF coming in from the smart meter. I live in the top floor of a split level house, that means I have wires giving off EMF on all 4 sides of me.

MB by itself had little effect as I had tried it earlier and it had little effect, even with fish oil & Nuvigil. Even Nuvigil & Adipex couldn't break the funk I was in.
Before bed (I had read this late at night) I took dose of MB & the L-Arginine. The next morning I got up not even thinking about what I had taken the night before & found myself picking up things & other things that I had put off for weeks & months. In 3 days I have got more done than I have in a month. I hope this stuff keeps working!!!!! I can't even figure out what this combination actually does? Does it raise or lower NO in your blood (L-Arginine raises it- but EMF's are suppose to raise them to?) or does the MB along with the Arginine cause or allow something that the constant dose of EMF's prohibits? The vitamins/supplements I was already on included fish oil, resveratrol, D, B's, Ginger & apple cider vinegar.

Any thoughts on this?

[Metrodorus]

It could simply be that you have some kind of metabolic disorder to do with energy processing - MB increases the efficiency of the mitochondria by overcoming a bottleneck in the electron transport chain. The effect on NO at the dosages we are taking about 1000 - 3000 micrograms - is negligible.
Increasing mitochondrial efficiency will have a few knock-on effects - such as increased energy levels. L-arginine increases NO, MB decreases it v slightly.
However, as every person has a different genetic response, it is hard to say what is causing what.
If it works, make sure you write down exactly what you did, in what combination, for the previous week or two.
Indeed, if you are taking supps and have a medical condition, you should keep a spreadsheet of what you are doing, and a reporting diary of your symptoms/ state of health each day.
MB accumulates in mitochondria over time, so the impact would not necessarily be immediate.

[Watdh]

Metabolic disorders can be ruled out- I'm generally a very active person. I was out of town for a month Aug 26- Sept. 28 & had no problems & for 2 weeks in early December & found myself out bike riding just for fun in the rain.

Thanks for the info! I will keep a notes & report back.

[hippocampus]

Yesterday I took about 350 mch of methylene blue and after that I did feel some mental effects, but nothing like a nootropic or anything like that, just maybe more sleepy and I got a headache. Today I took 60 mcg twice in two hours, mixed with vitamin C (dissolved for few hours) and now I'm so spaced out like as if I took low dose antipsychotic. Is this normal and will it go away? Are the effects after few days different? I also had some working memory problems, but nothing special. I also feel "unemotional", like on a mood stabilizer.
Also, first day I took somewhat larger dose and didn't get any special effects. Very interesting dose dependent effects indeed.

[Ark]

I found taking MB before grappling matches greatly increased my endurance and stamina not to mention a big focus boost.

[hippocampus]

at what dose?

[Ark]

at what dose?

1860 micrograms

[SuperjackDid_]

I feel dizzy today ,dose 1ml of 500ml ,0.01%

http://www.longecity...post__p__496932

Hope
hippocampus

give me correct ratio,should yield me for 20mcg/ml in 500ml 0.01% right ?.


My heart beat also seem irregular ,similar side effect i have on large dose Hyperzine.


HL is 10H ?
I found some effect at morning ,take more 0.5ml not get any good effect much except very subtle mood lift .

After then take Alcar ,ALCAR effect not pronoce as before ,then take ALA ,feel more worse.


After then i got morning meal ,so simple mean most carb,with Multivitamin Pil ,i feel very dizzy + unable to concentrate.

After then take Ashwagandha ,um seem my overall seem better ,i can focus and post here.

Ashwagandha seem calm me down ,look like i have some overexciting effect ?

Edited by Nootropix, 21 January 2012 - 06:00 AM.

[protoject]

I saw a post Aaron made in here and I'm guessing there must be some other people with the same experience which I am about to describe... I started methylene blue recently, but in MG doses rather than MCG. I noticed that I become excessively angry very easily and that every little thing pisses me off. That anger translates into physical motivation for working out [though I really did feel like throwing furniture around and breaking it]. Keep in mind that i almost NEVER get angry like that, so I am pretty convinced the MB is what's making me get like that.

But again there is an increase in strength and stamina.

Maybe I should go down to MCGs, though I tried that and not sure if I felt much from it. Also seems Aaron also had an anger experience.

I get slight chest pains as well.

The boost in physical energy is very nice but I do believe I could achieve the same with Alpha-GPC. I'll update you guys on anything else that happens. i stopped MB for a day and am starting up again at about 20mg to see if it's too much. I thought it would be nice to mention to anyone who hasn't read the full thread that isochroma seemed pretty pissed off as well as he was on MB.. haha.. I cant speak for him though, just judging from posts.

Anyone else get the excessive anger using this stuff??

[Adamzski]

I was taking MB before and getting some results, I really want to start it again but I am taking wellbutrin 150mg per day.

I thought that wellbutrin worked to increase dopamine? and that it is not a mao Inhibitor?

So what do you think? I was taking 1.2mg MB before

[zodiac]

Wellbutrin works at the dopamine and norepinephrine transporters to inhibit reuptake... but this is among other possible MOA (though none of them are, from what I recall, MAO-related).

[amark]

I am the guinea pig with the blue fur around here using 120 mg of mb a day. I also take 150mg of Wellbutrin XL (extended release
and eat Stilton cheese which is definitively on the maoi hit list and no problems. Make of it what you will.

[protoject]

Update on me: I do believe it was the M.Blue that caused my extreme anger. I was taking about 60 MILLIGRAMS for 3 days. It was overstimulating and made go into an anxious and bad mood, wanting to destroy things, getting really emotional.

Why the F did I take such a high dose? impatience I guess.. but please continue reading below as I did get positive effects.

Now I'm taking ~200 MICROgrams a day for the past 3 days.
There is a definite energy boosting and antidepressant effect, as well as a nootropic one.
My physical energy and stamina and strength have all gone upward...

The negative effects previously mentioned did not happen again.

I would still like to see more of a nootropic effect. I have some pretty bad a.d.d. / a.d.h.d. usually I'm depressive [negative type, I dont really cry or anything like that these days] so it's moreso a depressive kind of ADD. But with Methylene blue, it gives me energy and removes depression to a degree [i havent been depressed once today for example] , however then my ADHD resurfaces because I have energy that i dont usually have.

I wouldn't say my ADD/ADHD is worse or anything. Hell no. Actually sometimes I get a nootropic effect where I'm able to learn more easily and focus on things for a longer time. It's just that the nootropic effect is not yet pronounced, and I hope to see some further improvement continuing to use MB.

Edited by protoject, 01 February 2012 - 02:46 AM.

[PhaQ]

I take about 30mg three times a day and take 300mg Wellbutrin XL. I feel great. I had pretty much built up a tolerance to the wellbutrin, but now I can tell if I haven't taken it. The combo is nice and activating.

I also enjoy the blue urine. It never gets old.

[Adamzski]

wow thanks for the info, I am going to get back on it.

I took 1.2mg in one go for 3 weeks, It really did brighten my mood and help me focus a little more. I felt a crash after not taking it for 3 days.

Is this stuff hard on the liver/kidneys? I recently went through a bad time an drank myself crazy while taking up to 12g of Valerian per day. I had liver pain and have started to take a lot of milk thistle, has helped, all back to normal now.

[mag1]

Does anyone know where I might purchase pharmaceutical grade Methylene blue in Canada? I have read that Methylene Blue can be purchased
over the counter in Canada? Does anyone know of an online store in Canada or otherwise that could ship methylene blue to me in Canada?
Is there a pharmacy in Toronto where it could be purchased OTC?

[Adamzski]

Is there a source online anywhere where you can get pharmaceutical grade Methylene blue?