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Drive Deficient Mechanisms and Endogeneous Opioids

opioid kratom endorphin kappa delta mu receptor adaptogen bacopa pea

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#1 sam7777

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 07:12 AM


http://www.biopsychiatry.com/

Another "French" option is amineptine's cousin, tianeptine (Stablon). Tianeptine is a neuroprotective antidepressant that reverses the neuronal damage and lasting misery caused by uncontrolled stress. Chronic stress causes dysphoria by inducing corticotropin-releasing factor (CRF2) receptor stimulation of dynorphin release. The endogenous opioid peptide dynorphin activates the unpleasant kappa opioid receptors. Tianeptine acts both as a non-sedating anti-anxiety agent and a non-stimulating mood-brightener. Its use increases extracellular dopamine concentration in the nucleus accumbens and, at higher doses, in the frontal cortex. Uniquely in clinical medicine, tianeptine acts as a selective serotonin reuptake enhancer. Its puzzling efficacy as an antidepressant illustrates how little modern psychiatric medicine really understands about mind, mood and depression. Like other contemporary antidepressants, tianeptine's therapeutic action presumably depends on downstream adaptations both between and within neurons occurring over a period of several weeks. Chronic tianeptine use reverses stress-induced hippocampal dendritric atrophy and amgydaloid dendritic hypertrophy, which is just as nasty as it sounds. But the precise molecular mechanisms are obscure. Tianeptine/Stablon is not licensed in North America primarily because its patent has expired.
REBOXETINE (EDRONAX); ADRAFINIL (OLMIFON); MODAFINIL (PROVIGIL)
<a href="http://www.reboxetin...tml">Reboxetine (Edronax) is a relatively well-tolerated, relatively selective "noradrenergic" agent. Crudely, whereas serotonin plays a vital role in mood, noradrenaline is essential to maintaining drive, vigilance and the capacity for reward. There's a fair bit of evidence that chronically depressive people have dysfunctional and atypical noradrenergic systems - particularly their alpha2- and beta-adrenoceptors. Reboxetine itself typically doesn't have the disruptive effects on cognitive function or psychomotor performance common to older clinical mood-brighteners - though alas antimuscarinic effects are still not completely absent. Multiple interactions between the different monoamine systems make it hard to target one neurotransmitter system without triggering a cascade of effects on the others. But NorAdrenaline Reuptake Inhibitors (NARIs) - and dopaminergics like amineptine (Survector) - may be especially useful in drive-deficient "anergic" states where the capacity for sustained motivation is lacking; and for melancholic depressives with a poor ability to cope with stress. Reboxetine can be safely combined with an SSRI, though there is evidence that NARIs themselves indirectly enhance central serotonin function by a mechanism that doesn't depend on reuptake inhibition. More surprisingly perhaps, preliminary studies suggest reboxetine can actually reverse tranylcypromine-induced hypertensive crises. The "cheese effect" is triggered by ingesting tyramine-rich foods. Thus NARIs plus MAOIs may prove a potent form of combination-therapy if first options fail. EMSAM, the transdermal selegiline patch, is probably the safest choice of MAOI.

Depressive hypersomniacs who fare poorly on SSRIs, or can't get hold of amineptine or EC-licensed reboxetine, might consider trying a so-called eugeroic ("good arousal") agent instead. Alpha1-adrenergic agonists like adrafinil (Olmifon) and modafinil (Provigil, Alertec) are centrally-acting psychostimulants that can brighten mood and sharpen mental focus. They stimulate the noradrenergic post-synaptic receptors, increase glutamatergic transmission, and activate the wakefulness-promoting orexinergic neurons, thereby boosting alertness, memory, mood, motivation and energy. At sensible dosages, they are remarkably free of side-effects. Modafinil was licensed by the FDA as Provigil for the treatment of narcolepsy in Dec 1998; and in September 2003, an advisory panel to the FDA endorsed its use for treating shift work sleep disorder and sleep apnea. However, the significance of these prescribing indications is rapidly being eroded. Modafinil and adrafinil are now mainly used off-label as so-called lifestyle drugs.


What's missing, crucially, is the therapeutic enrichment of hedonic tone via a combination of mu opioid pathway enhancement and prolonged stimulation of meso(cortico-)limbic dopamine function.


It is possible that duloxetine (Cymbalta, Xeristar, Yentreve), licensed by the FDA in autumn 2004, and milnacipran (Ixel, Dalcipran, Toledomin), available in Europe, may be more effective than venlafaxine (Effexor) for a segment of the population that can benefit from dual serotonin-noradrenaline reuptake inhibition. Pain-ridden depressives in particular may respond well to this class of drug. Many depressed people suffer from poorly-defined aches and pains, persistent fatigue, and shoulder-, neck- and back-pain. Duloxetine relieves both the somatic and emotional symptoms of depression. Unlike venlafaxine, duloxetine exerts its more balanced serotonin and noradrenaline reuptake inhibition throughout the dosage range. Duloxetine also weakly inhibits the reuptake of dopamine, and shows minimal affinity for the histamine and cholinergic muscarinic receptors. Its side-effect profile appears to be relatively benign. Yet an authentic wonderdrug for mental health remains elusive. Early expectations that duloxetine would show superior efficacy in melancholic depressives have not yet been convincingly borne out in controlled clinical trials. Ill-served by mainstream medicine, victims of melancholic and retarded depression may actually do better on dual noradrenaline-dopamine reuptake inhibitors such as delicensed nomifensine (Merital) and/or mu opioid agonists/kappa opioid antagonists such as buprenorphine (Temgesic, Buprenex, Subutex).


A synthetic analogue of the natural hormone melatonin, agomelatine is a potent melatonin receptor agonist and a serotonin 5-HT2C receptor antagonist.


Contemporary medical orthodoxy classifies drug-induced bliss as an "adverse side-effect" of opioid analgesics - even in the terminally ill. Yet we could all do with having our native endorphin systems enriched. Later this century and beyond, the customised site-selective successors to today's opioid drugs may play a critical role in promoting emotional super-health. For example, one of the most exciting research breakthroughs in recent years has been the synthesis of JDTic. JDTic exerts a sustained anti-anxiety and mood-brightening effect: it is the first orally active selective kappa opioid antagonist. Kappa is the "ugly" opioid receptor whose endogenous ligand is dynorphin. The dynorphin/kappa-opioid receptor system is implicated in the unpleasant states of mind caused by chronic uncontrolled stress. Repeated use of cocaine, heroin, ethyl alcohol and other euphoriant drugs induces a compensatory up-regulation of the dynorphin/kappa-opioid receptor system too, causing anxiety, anhedonia and dysphoria. Whereas mu receptor agonist opioids induce euphoria by enhancing dopamine release in the nucleus accumbens, activation of kappa opioid receptors inhibits dopamine release from the mesolimbic terminals. This deficiency is subjectively unpleasant because the mesolimbic dopamine system regulates hedonic tone and the capacity to experience (and anticipate) happiness. Dopamine also modulates the threshold of pain perception. As of 2011, controlled clinical trials of JDTic or its analogues (e.g. zyklophin) in humans have yet to begin. But results in non-human "animal models" are encouraging.


I can verify that stress will eventuall burnout your cognitive capacity. Also you will certainly lose effectiveness of something like caffeine and adderall. I have had best results mixing things that raised oxytocin and endorphins with adrenergic and dopiminergic cholinergic serotinergic combinations. Caffeine no longer seems to be worth using. I really suggest pursuing the idea of a dynorphin antagonist and a CRF secretion inhibitor.

Surprisingly things like Frankincense Essential oil can control CRF abnoralities, amygdala, and hippocampus abnoralities. So can bacopa.

These are characteristic in that they do not act as dopamine reuptake ihibitors or NARI.

I would think of a stack something to this effect.

Clary Sage EO
Frankincense EO
Valerian EO
Theanine/Magnolia/Phellodendron
Lemon EO
Aniracetam/Piracetam
Sulbutamine
Fish Oil
Modafinil/Yohimbe/Adrafinil
Wellbutrin/Tianeptine
Schizandra
Cordyceps
Rhodiola
Bacopa
Mushroom Complex containing Reishi and Lion's Mane
Yerba Mate in small amounts
Decaf Green Tea
No Coffee whatsoever

The next step would be an unknown source for dynorphin control as well as opioid function. Schizandra is pretty good, but I think Kava or Kratom might be a better opioid. The whole challange however in this post is - getting away with using pro dopaminergics and opioids without inducing tolerance.

I have read countless threads about NMDA antagonism or Ibogain or DXM or salvia.

Frankly, I have to point out that most psychoactive stimulants heavily release PEA at some point - leading to mu and delta opioid receptor agonization. Ultimately, they all carry risk of tolerance and crash.

High states of dopamine/acetylcholine/adrenaline are impossible to sustain because of neuroendocrinological negative feedback mechanisms.

So you would be looking at low dose dynorphin control and mu and delta opioid receptor sensitizers as the next step to perfecting this stack...

It is the kappa opioid receptor stimulation that results in the listlessness and uselessness of narcotics, otherwise narcotics would be extremely constructive for accomplishing absolute plethoras of work, utterly superhuman intellectual performance.
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#2 sam7777

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 11:37 PM

Basically the point I am trying to make here people is simple enough.

Look at how adderall and ritilin work. Look at how PEA works. Look at how most CNS stimulants work.

How much cognitive function and social skill improving effects are attributable to simply more dopamine?

The real deal is endorphins. Endorphins play a part in memory, learning, and most importantly drive.

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#3 AbolishtheState

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 04:22 AM

I very much enjoy the Hedonistic Imperative and have read the quoted excerpts previously. Thank you for refreshing my memory of this great source of information. Additionally, I really like where you are going with your proposed stack, and would gladly experiment with something similar, once it is further refined.

In regards to the use of kava, I have used it off and on for a number of months now. For me, it is useful as a cognitive enhancer (increased focus, motivation, and attention), anxiolytic, and general mood booster. A number of psychoactive compounds derived from kava root have been identified, including GABAa potentiators, reversible MAO-B inhibitors (capable of increasing dopamine levels in the nucleus accumbens), and noradrenergics. This novel group of phytochemicals has been dubbed the kavalactones. With such a range of possible effects, I believe that kava will become an important source for cognitive-enhancers and other beneficial substances.

#4 QuantumTubule

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 07:13 AM

haha so close but so far. Good luck on dynorphin control, do you know what it does? How functional are Dynorphin(-/-) mice?
I think subconciously you may understand the interelations that you seek, however you have almost no demonstratable relations
interms of the biomolecular scheme and your missing the keys. As treason is around its better that I provide no aid.
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#5 AbolishtheState

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 04:10 PM

haha so close but so far. Good luck on dynorphin control, do you know what it does? How functional are Dynorphin(-/-) mice?
I think subconciously you may understand the interelations that you seek, however you have almost no demonstratable relations
interms of the biomolecular scheme and your missing the keys. As treason is around its better that I provide no aid.


Could you perhaps try rephrasing your criticism in a more constructive and lucid manner? I fail to see how your response added anything useful to the conversation.

#6 sam7777

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 04:13 AM

however you have almost no demonstratable relations
interms of the biomolecular scheme and your missing the keys


This is largely because no one ever brings up the point that I am making in the first place. This gives me little precedence or research that I could even begin to cite for concrete biomolecular mechanisms to explain these relations. I have seen many opinions towards recreational drug use, traditional allopathic psychopharmacology, and nootropic support stacks, but all were lacking in even hinting at the relation I have pointed out.

There is a thread I frequent that is nearly 9 pages long devoted soley to the potentiation of PEA. At no point has anyone I have spoken to on the matter, begun to think they could use PEA and hordenine combo, etc as a long term nootropic solution.

Time and time again, all the evidence to suggest the roles of endorphins in learning fall through the cracks, because the people dancing around the subject are too concerned with the basics. Allopathic desire to medicate/zombify/stupify prevails. Recreational drug use of the weekend warrior prevails. Racetam obsessed choline debates prevail.

Show me one double blind peer reviewed journal paper over the increased cognitive ability, learning capacity, and memory in the case of a proven active compound in an herb that affected opioid receptors directly. Plenty substances affect them downstream, indirectly, but little research is cited over those mechanisms. I have struggled to find good examples. I have loose examples for rhodiola, and that is about it to my knowledge.

I would not expect dynorphin to be easily manipulated. However, I probably would never readily try to use a substance to agonize it's receptors.

I genuinely believe, that because of substances such as Salvia, DXM, Marijuana, and Schizandra, that the majority of opioid receptor mediated actions are downstream effects caused by either cannibanoid receptors or D1 receptor stimulation and D2 receptor sensitization. And in the same token, it is the D2 desensitization that plays a part in the misery of tolerance and withdrawal issues with the likes of cocaine, adderall, and Ritalin. And this only begins to scrape the surface of the iceberg, because of the subject matter that could be brought up regarding the entire field of neuroendocrinology.

I have seen a great deal of progress made outside these forums, but the focus was strongly on nueropsychopharmacology and the brain. I tried to explain to some of them that 2+2 = more than 4, because you have this whole other aspect of how the body's endocrine system acts as a limiting factor to the sensitivity of areas of the brain.

This topic delves more into some of this threads matter http://herbs.maxforu...1/d2-receptors/

Edited by sam7777, 09 November 2011 - 04:16 AM.

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#7 sam7777

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 05:55 AM

I am pretty curious as to how oxytocin is correlated with this. There are relations between your immune system, oxytocin, growth hormone, free T3 thyroid hormone, dynorphin and enkephalin, prolactin, and the hedonic cue that sets off the trigger of these reactions.(PEA/NE/DA etc)
some mild endorphin antagonists herbs are
blue lilly
chamomile
bacopa
ashwaghanda
rosemary
the anti-serotonergics
chamomile also
Laurus nobilis
Origanum vulgare
fenugreek
licorice
Scotch broom
hawthorn
datura inoxia
passiflora inoxia
datura stromonium
nutmeg (elemicin)
the oxytocin herbs, which I have not looked into yet

malabar nut
snake root
siberian pachycarpa
boldo
wild indigo
spanish broom
white lupine
Andean lupine
honey locust

Recently I have been studying herbs that act as anti-serotonin, pro oxytocin, endorphin antagonizing (naltrexone). This is because there is a theory that has been tested successfully in many patients, namely CFS and autism patients, where using an endorphin antagonist before bed time will cause a rebound of endorphin following the next day.
According to Ray Peat
"
Slight damage to the immune system, such as can be produced by hypoglycemia or other energy deficit--creates an exaggerated inflammatory response, and the release of the mediators of inflammation, including histamine, serotonin, and prostaglandins, activates the stress hormone system, leading to further biological damage."
Serotonin can often be at the heart of ill effects, because it acts as an inflammatory cytokine. Personally I believe serotonin's effects are so complex and broad in their actions throughout the body, that neither high nor low is necessarily a good thing. But these anti-serotonergics (for which LSD is one) play a part in this overall symphony of hedonic tone and perceived consciousness.
Your macrophages, B lymphocyte, and T cells have receptors on them that endorphins like enkephelin supposedly bind to, and somehow this acts as an immuno modulator. The effect overnight is that the persons endorphin levels and immune system rebound. This was so successful in some autism patients, the kids showed the ability to be socially connected whereas not before.
The reverse being true, stress inducing situations impair the immune system directly via the endogenous opioid nueropeptides, and also cortisol. I also recall a documentary where all the anti-social baboons are the first to die in an epidemic.
Worth researching is how gingko and b6 affect histamine, I know niacin does. High histamine, as in the case in chronic inflammation is associated with difficulty for achieving euphoria.
By antagonizing the opioid system, certain parts of the cholinergic system (I remember our NZT discussion), and certain parts of the serotonin system, it may produce a neuro-immuno-endocrinological response that raises dopamine, endorphins, immune function, lowers cortisol, lowers prolactin, possibly raises oxytocin, and increases mental clarity and memory/ perception mind broadening based on how it alters serotonin and acetycholine receptors. So, that at least is my theory.
This should resensitize this whole system. This further falls back in line, with the idea that the "sexual hangover" is a form of "mind narrowing". I seem to recall that history points to a lot of brilliant geniuses as being celibate. Or so that at lease illustrates a point.
So I am just furthering my point that reduced ability to feel emotions or to feel the effects of PEA is associated with overall reduced mind.

Edited by sam7777, 31 December 2011 - 06:02 AM.

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#8 QuantumTubule

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Posted 31 December 2011 - 05:17 PM

+

#9 Cephalon

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 07:09 PM

Refering to the first post:
Yohimbine is contraindicated when using Modafinil, so is Kratom.
The Yohimbine combination possibly causes a arythmia, Kratom and Modafinil caused seizures, at least in one reported case. It will show up on Google or PubMed.

Kava and Shizandra do not contain opioids afaik.

Edited by Cephalon, 12 January 2012 - 07:09 PM.


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#10 sativa

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 05:21 AM

I am just posting an updated link to the D2 Receptors thread over on Nature's Herb forum, as sam7777's link is now invalid

http://herbs.mxf.yuk...eceptors?page=1

Edited by sativa, 24 August 2015 - 05:36 AM.






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: opioid, kratom, endorphin, kappa, delta, mu, receptor, adaptogen, bacopa, pea

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