56 replies to this topic

[1thoughtMaze1]

Does anyone have any experience with prozac? I heard somewhere it causes neurogenisis , any comments on that? Prozac a nootropic??

Edited by chrono, 16 November 2011 - 08:01 AM.

[MrHappy]

God no... Just no.

Yes, a lot of drugs, including hallucinogens, SSRIs and MAOIs can uprate neurogenesis. However, at what cost?

There are other supplements here that promote rapid neurogenesis without the traditional side effects of SSRIs.

[1thoughtMaze1]

Hmm... Well the cost can't be that great because there are millions on people on prozac as we type

[abelard lindsay]

I think you're thinking of Stablon/Tianeptine.

[MrHappy]

Actually, I'm thinking of prozac:
http://www.nytimes.c...len-prozac.html
http://www.drugs.com...de-effects.html
http://mistyhorizon2...uoxetine-Prozac

I'm not talking about loss-of-life, I'm talking about loss-of-clarity and fullness to life.
It scrambles your memory, but your brain doesn't care. There's a whole host of side-effects to go with it. Sure - not everyone suffers them as badly as others.

You'll think it's all peachy, even though everyone else around you can see how broken your life is - this is speaking as someone who has had relatives go on and off prozac. The effect is substantial.

If you're looking for neurogenesis, try one of the other options that doesn't potentially affect so many other facets of your life. There are some very, very effective alternatives listed on here.

[hippocampus]

Supporting this, the excitatory neurotransmitter glutamate, voluntary exercise,[35] caloric restriction, intellectual stimulation, curcumin[36] and various treatments for depression (such as antidepressants[37] and electroconvulsive therapy[38] and sleep deprivation[39]) increase expression of BDNF in the brain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDNF
so there are many other ways to increase BDNF besides magic pills.

[Thorsten3]

All antidepressants cause neurogenesis

Supporting this, the excitatory neurotransmitter glutamate, voluntary exercise,[35] caloric restriction, intellectual stimulation, curcumin[36] and various treatments for depression (such as antidepressants[37] and electroconvulsive therapy[38] and sleep deprivation[39]) increase expression of BDNF in the brain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDNF
so there are many other ways to increase BDNF besides magic pills.

St Johns Wort, Curcumin, Resveratrol (?), Silymarin, Exercise, Laughter, Being around people (that you like)

Plus lots of others most probably


I think doing new things/ learning new things creates neurogenesis too (providing what you are doing isn't stress invoking)

Ketamine causes synaptagenesis but I am unsure of what the difference is.


Prozac is not a nootropic that's for sure. But if it makes you feel good and it works then it could potentially be a nootropic for the individual who takes it.

Edited by chrono, 15 November 2011 - 10:12 PM.

[chrono]

It could be argued that fluoxetine has a nootropic effect. It has been shown to improve cognitive measures in both animals [1] [2] [3] and humans [4] [5] [6], though there's some opposing data as well [7] [8] [9]. It's unclear how much of this might be generally applicable, and how much cognitive improvement might be due to 'clearing up' depression.

The effect on neurogenesis is a lot more solid. The effect seems mediated through its effect on serotonin [10], though other necessary mechanisms have been elucidated, as well [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17]. Interestingly, the effect is completely blocked by diazepam [18], and in a switch with most neurogenics that interest us, it seems to work better in younger animals than old ones [19] [20] [21] [22] [23]. It protects against decreases in neurogenesis in some models [24] [25], but is also capable of decreasing it in some parts of the brain [26] [27]. Adult neurogenesis has received attention recently in the etiology of depression, but only some of fluoxetine's effects seem to depend on its neurogenic properties [28] [29]. Lastly, it is effective at complete incorporation of new neurons [30], as opposed to some substances which may simply generate non-surviving progenitor cells.

In general, I wouldn't suggest taking an SSRI just to achieve either of these effects. Their popularity is due more to marketing, and the perverse structure of the US prescription drug pipeline, than because they are necessarily the best options. Tianeptine and agomelatine are two options which are worth looking into, for people considering prozac for any of these reasons.

[JChief]

Hmm... Well the cost can't be that great because there are millions on people on prozac as we type

Depends on what you define as "cost" .. there are a lot of people taking amphetamines but at what cost? I think of the quote "Just because everybody's doing it doesn't make it right." If I could describe my years on SSRIs in one word I would say 'numb' Especially dangerous for those with undiagnosed manic depressive tendencies.

[nito]

I heard exersice increases you BDNF, so try that.

[X_Danny_X]

exercises increases BDNF but only up too a certain point. after that, it is just too help maintain that level.

and Prozac did divily squat to get rid of my depression. what an expensive drug and i wasted my time and money in believing such crap from my past doctor.

[nito]

i got lustral(zoloft) sent through the post. Does it matter that it's the lustral brand name and not zoloft, i should expect the same effect right?

[chrono]

i got lustral(zoloft) sent through the post. Does it matter that it's the lustral brand name and not zoloft, i should expect the same effect right?

nito, this has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Please try to find a thread about the actual substance when you're asking this kind of question, or start one if necessary.

[nito]

My bad., was in a bit of hurry.

[longevitynow]

i got lustral(zoloft) sent through the post. Does it matter that it's the lustral brand name and not zoloft, i should expect the same effect right?

nito, this has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Please try to find a thread about the actual substance when you're asking this kind of question, or start one if necessary.

Is Nito's comment completely off-target?? He is asking about neurogenesis from other closely related compounds...

Personally, I am a huge fan of 5-HTP as an alternative to SSRI's. Does anyone know if 5-HTP or Tryptophan support neurogenesis. They are very superior in effect to Prozac in improving my mood,sleep, and anxiety.

[1thoughtMaze1]

I'm gona lab rat this for a couple of months at 20mg... I'll report back if I notice something drastic. Started 2 days ago, I hope it doesn't effect my memory cause that would be a disaster, being and eng student and all.

[chung_pao]

The mechanism might be: SSRI's elevate serotonin, which leads to more melatonin and more sleep.

As we all know, sleep is a requirement for neurogenesis.
Studies indicate melatonin stimulates neurogenesis.

Experience: Been on Prozac for 4 months. I slept 9-12 hours a day. It numbed me off real good and took the life out of me.
I also gained like 0.5 pounds a week.

Edited by chung_pao, 24 November 2012 - 10:18 PM.

[1thoughtMaze1]

The mechanism might be: SSRI's elevate serotonin, which leads to more melatonin and more sleep.

As we all know, sleep is a requirement for neurogenesis.
Studies indicate melatonin stimulates neurogenesis.

Experience: Been on Prozac for 4 months. I slept 9-12 hours a day. It numbed me off real good and took the life out of me.
I also gained like 0.5 pounds a week.

Thanks for sharing, notice memory improved? Or anything related to better cognitive abilities? Did it cure your depression? If thats what you took it for that is.

[chung_pao]

The SSRI inhibited motivation quite a lot. With the half-life of prozac, that effect is pretty permanent.
I've experimented a lot with this type of neurochemistry.
If you want to experience short-term effects of SSRIs, then try 5-HTP. It stimulates the exact same chemical (serotonin).

I believe there's no way getting around the fact that SLEEP is what will improve memory and neurogenesis.
Specifically, REM-sleep.
If you want neurogenesis, then supplement with huperzine A and melatonin before bed (IMO).

I took SSRI's out of curiosity, since many studies and signs pointed to Serotonin being a happiness chemical.
My conclusion is that Serotonin inhibits dopamine, and Serotonin is more of a "satisfaction" chemical.
It makes you feel safe, satisfied, and not really inclined to exert yourself a lot.
Whereas dopamine does the opposite; it motivates you and allows you to push yourself as far as you can, while enjoying the process.

SSRI didn't improve my cognitive abilities. SLEEP did though.
SSRI's decreased my attention span and made me more naive and optimistic.
Many people experience weight gain with SSRI's. I attribute this to the effect it has on perspective: "one more burger won't hurt".

IMO, for neurogenesis, focus on REM-sleep, Testosterone, Dopamine, and Melatonin. Alternatively, other nootropics.

Edited by chung_pao, 24 November 2012 - 10:52 PM.

[1thoughtMaze1]

Hmm interesting, thanks for that Chung

Edited by 1thoughtMaze1, 25 November 2012 - 03:10 AM.

[1thoughtMaze1]

I would appreciate any one else sharing their fluoxetine experiences!

[nupi]

I took SSRI's out of curiosity, since many studies and signs pointed to Serotonin being a happiness chemical.
My conclusion is that Serotonin inhibits dopamine, and Serotonin is more of a "satisfaction" chemical.
It makes you feel safe, satisfied, and not really inclined to exert yourself a lot.

THIS. Very comfortable (a much needed break for me, for sure) but ultimately probably not very sustainable/productive.

If someone really wants to go the SSRI route for neurogenesis, I would not go for Prozac however: it has a very long half life which makes it kind of hard to pin point its effects clearly (and in general its also considered to be one of the more side effect heavy ones - for me, that seems to be different). In contrast, with Escitalopram I was able to pretty clearly pin point it starting to make it into my system after a couple of weeks (initally it just made me sleep 14 hours a day though). Overall I would argue that if you have no anxiety/depression, an SSRI is a bad way to do cognitive enhancement. However, if you do, it seems like a valid choice - the comfortable numbness definitely beats the state I was in before. Having said that, I need some solution to boost Dopamine to actually go and do stuff now

[chung_pao]

Dopamine is involved in synaptic plasticity and absolutely ESSENTIAL for neurogenesis.
What prozac does, is that it numbs you down, as many of the people in this thread have validated.
The whole reason that it causes weight gain and erectile dysfunction is because you get less excited, because of the decrease in dopamine.
I would say that prozac does the opposite of neurogenesis, and I advice you to look under another tree mate

However, it's an antidepressant, and it has it's place! It's effective for some complications.

Regarding BDNF, I'm also very interested in this topic.
I firmly refute and hate the idea that "we're born with all the neurons we'll ever have".
You can stimulate the body to increase your mental capacity over time, and that is why BDNF is so interesting.

From what I've read, I assume the same rules applies to growth of the nervous system and Neurons specifically, as any other type of tissue in the body:
That is: Stimulation, Nutrients, Rest and Growth-factors are what's necessary for growth.

I say, don't look for a specific substance, but a certain lifestyle.
You need regular hormesis, exercise, a lot of mental stimulation and "exercising" your brain.

I myself do intermittent fasting, strength training, computer games (this has shown to increase concentration and be perfect brain-exercise, as long as you enjoy it), eat a high fat diet (eggs, nuts, meat, fish oil), and some nootropics (racetams, ginkgo, DMAE).
Also, keeping your body-fat level below 10% will dramatically raise BDNF along with many other positive hormones.
I'll be starting supplementation of how doses of zink soon aswell, since it's shown to increase testosterone by up to 40% in some studies.

For substances though, here's a list:
http://samsnyder.com...ncreasing-bdnf/

Edited by chung_pao, 25 November 2012 - 09:14 PM.

[1thoughtMaze1]

Thanks again Chung, I agree with you for the most part. I figured I'd try this because life is short and being safe almost always gets you no where, ironic cause you said this is going to make me feel safe haha. But on that note, I must admit that i have been feeling the stress with finals coming up and while I take this for the fourth day now I AM feeling that safe mode you mentioned. I feel less stressed, there is no doubt.,,, I don't feel my mood fluctuating as a result of stress, like I noticed it has recently. I'm just here studying, not much feelings at all. Just studying. I kind of like it. But it's early still I don't know if it's placebo, I'll give it some more time before I make any conclusions.

Thanks everyone for all your input... also I drink coffee and take other supplements... so I don't think that my dopamine is going down anytime soon.

[chung_pao]

That sounds great. Please keep us posted and make an update if anything else comes up. I'm very fascinated by this subject.

How about appetite, social inhibitions, sleep, and the duration you're able to concentrate; any changes?

What else are you using? Asking out of curiosity, since there might be interactions between SSRI and other compounds.

[nupi]

Appetite: probably slightly increased (not a bad thing, I am trying to increase weight)
Social inhibitions: slightly lower, although not as much as I would like - I can get very pushy if you piss me off (which can be good) but approaching strangers is still near impossible
Concentration: not sure, to many confounding variables - would like to add a dopaminergic to test
Sleep: Not as long as on Escitalopram but definitely longer than on Cymbalta and even with little sleep I feel better in the morning than without any meds
Interesting side effect: I can now feel caffeine, likely for the first time in 15+ years (even after taking a 1 month abstinence I could not really feel it)
My current stack is this (except for the SSRI and the Uridine part this has been stable for months now)

Morning
1 AOR Multibasics 3 cap
1 NOW 2000 IU D3 softgel
1-2 1250mg Source Naturals Mg Malate tablets
~3g Jarrow Creatine
1 LEF Super K (1mg K1, 1mg MK4, 0.1mg MK7)
2 LEF Fish Oil soft gels
20mg Prozac
400mg NOW Green Tea extract (200mg Egcg among others)
6mg Dr Best Astaxanthin


Evening
1 AOR Multibasics 3 cap
1-2 1250mg Source Naturals Mg Malate tablets
~3g Jarrow Creatine
6mg Dr Best Astaxanthin
0.3mg Time Released LEF Melatonin

I am now adding to this (in the morning)
1 200IU NOW Mixed E softgel
300mg Superior Nutraceuticals UMP
250mg Jarrow CDP Choline

[michaelh]

I believe years of depression and stress has taken it's toll on my hippocampus.

In this link supplements normalise BDNF, increase BDNF and enhance BDNF gene expression. Which do I want?
Also do any of the supplements in this link have as strong effects on neurogenesis as SSRI's?

Edited by michaelh, 17 January 2013 - 03:06 PM.

[michaelh]

Also, the following link suggests caffeine prevents stress-induced reductions in P-CAMKII, total CaMKII, and BDNF. Does this mean caffeine doesn't increase anxiety or negatively affect mood? Caffeine also increases neurotransmitter levels.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22706686

[synaptiq]

I believe years of depression and stress has taken it's toll on my hippocampus.

In this link supplements normalise BDNF, increase BDNF and enhance BDNF gene expression. Which do I want?
Also do any of the supplements in this link have as strong effects on neurogenesis as SSRI's?

I'd suggest the uridine/DHA stack
http://www.longecity...ne-uridine-dha/

I hate to sound like a broken record about it in every thread, but there are numerous studies to show it promotes hippocampal neurogenesis, and many posters have had great results using it for depression. It also avoids the TrkB downregulation you get after a while if you just stimulate BDNF directly.

[Sam375]

First anti depressant I took (around 16 years old)

I don't remember the nootropic effect...


My own experience is that anti depressants are great once you are at the bottom but it is in no way a long term solution, it will destroy your brain.