75 replies to this topic

[mrkosh1]

At this time, I think there the two supplements that have the most potential to reverse aspects of the aging process are mitochondrial antioxidants like SKQ1, and telomerase inducers. SKQ1 is a pharmaceutical, so there is little chance of obtaining it as a supplement. However, it has been revealed that many GRAS substances have telomerase inducers. This offers the opportunity to identify these telomerase inducers, test them, and make them available as OTC supplements

The frustrating thing I see, is that there is very little clear information about GRAS telomerase inducers. For example, Sierra Sciences claims to have identified many of them, but are providing very little information. Product B claims to utilize telomerase inducers, but the makers of it do not list which ingredients are supposed to induce telomerase, any details about testing of those ingredients, no speculation about absorption, etc. RevGenetics also seems to be a bit secretive about their information. For example, they chose not to reveal test information, and write a paper about it instead.

Do these companies have a need for secrecy? Probably. However, the secrecy is hindering the development of telomerase inducing substances.

Something needs to be done. There is more and more information indicating that telomere shortening has a significant impact on aging. If we can determine which GRAS substances induce telomerase we can then try to extract the substances in them that induce telomerase. We could end up with a supplement that strongly induces telomerase. I really think that if we could find a substance that could strongly induce telomerase, it could buy us another 20 - 30 years of lifespan.

So my question is, "What can we do about this?"

1) Should we try to organize some kind of open source telomerase inducing database of GRAS substances?

2) Should we try to fund our own testing of GRAS substances?

3) Is there anyway we can convince companies like Sierra Sciences, GERON, and RevGenetics to share information with us?

4) Did anyone hear Bill Andrew's presentation at SENS. A video has not yet been posted.

5) How much does it cost to test compounds for telomerase induction ability? It seems to me that a crude way of going about it would be to take cultured cells, add the substance to be tested, and see if the substance allows for more cell doublings.

I'm just fed up with the fact it is difficult to get information about GRAS telomerase inducers. I realize there is a need for confidentiality, but at the same time I think sharing information would accelerate the research.

Right now, I have a 89 year old grandmother who is rapidly aging. I would like to get some solid information, so I could know what telomerase inducer might help her the most. If we can get a telomerase inducer that can actually rapidly add telomeric repeats on the market in the next couple of years, it could save her life and many others!

[1kgcoffee]

SKQ1
http://en.wikipedia....i/Plastoquinone
Interesting... maybe wheatgrass juice really does have anti-aging properties.

[bacopa]

It has pissed me off for years, this covering up, misusing of the truth, this is the big game of medicine, and now the supplement anti aging industry is doing the same thing, to alienate us poorer people.

Anyway from the wiki article it said Co Q 10, has some chemicla similarities.

Finally there is a doctor who is in my state, Ma, who claims he has the patent from Geron on a "proven" way to induce telomeres.

I will link you his web page, but this reeks of, another get richer for the doctor, but we don't know what this procedure does to the consumer kind of thing. I am currently dealing with mercury poisoning, (confirmed) so I can barely keep track of things, so you can message me pm, or here, or both, and I'll try to find the doctor who claims control over this patented technology, he claims hes' the only one doing it, inotherwords

[Anthony_Loera]

mrkosh1 said:

RevGenetics also seems to be a bit secretive about their information. For example, they chose not to reveal test information, and write a paper about it instead.

Hi mrkosh1,
It's not that we don't want to tell you directly what the results were (trust me, I totally want to tell everyone). However, the time sensitive nature of your grandmother, has me telling you that I personally do not recommend Product B. Go buy TA-65 which I do recommend, if you find a 90 to 1 Astragalus extract let me know (since 50 to 1 and 25 to 1 show no statistical significance in vitro testing), or buy Astral Fruit when we finally have it available.

dfowler said:

and now the supplement anti aging industry is doing the same thing, to alienate us poorer people.

Alienate poor people? That is your opinion on it, seriously?

A

[DbCooper]

mrkosh1 said:

RevGenetics also seems to be a bit secretive about their information. For example, they chose not to reveal test information, and write a paper about it instead.

Hi mrkosh1,
It's not that we don't want to tell you directly what the results were (trust me, I totally want to tell everyone). However, the time sensitive nature of your grandmother, has me telling you that I personally do not recommend Product B. Go buy TA-65 which I do recommend, if you find a 90 to 1 Astragalus extract let me know (since 50 to 1 and 25 to 1 show no statistical significance in vitro testing), or buy Astral Fruit when we finally have it available.

dfowler said:

and now the supplement anti aging industry is doing the same thing, to alienate us poorer people.

Alienate poor people? That is your opinion on it, seriously?

A

When do you expect it will be available?

[1kgcoffee]

So Anythony, if you don't mind me asking, how much pure astragalus is needed to extract a typical dose of TA65? Could one simply take a ridiculous 50g or 100g of raw root powder and expect to see similar effect? That'd be doable in divided doses.

Edited by 1kgcoffee, 21 November 2011 - 03:20 AM.

[Methos000]

"RevGenetics also seems to be a bit secretive about their information. For example, they chose not to reveal test information, and write a paper about it instead"

I believe that Anthony has clearly indicated the essence, if not the details of his Product B assay results already. He certainly has done so again in this thread. Maybe we're in for a War of the Labs at some point.

Edited by Methos000, 21 November 2011 - 03:58 AM.

[Anthony_Loera]

So Anythony, if you don't mind me asking, how much pure astragalus is needed to extract a typical dose of TA65? Could one simply take a ridiculous 50g or 100g of raw root powder and expect to see similar effect? That'd be doable in divided doses.

You want to take 50g or 100g a day?
Depending on the extract, you don't need 50g or 100g in my personal estimate. I posted how much 50:1 and 25:1 astragalus results in the Astragalus thread... that thread is so large now, wow... it might not easily be found. But it is there.


The results for the 50 to 1 extract of astragalus show the following:
==========================================================================
CoA Amount:
1 Gram of 50:1 Astragalus Extract:

Astragenol: <0.01%
Cycloastragenol: 0.0518%
Astragaloside IV: 1.18%

==========================================================================


So if we do the calculations based on the 50 to 1 Astragalus CoA:
==========================================================================
1 Gram contains the following:

Astragenol: (not calculated)
Cycloastragenol: 0.518mg
Astragaloside IV: 11.8mg
==========================================================================

Now multiply it all by how many mg you want to take:

How much do I take to get 5mg of Cycloastragenol?
If you wanted to take 5mg of cycloastragenol, you would need to take over 10 grams a day of the 50:1 Astragalus extract.
However at that amount, you will also be taking over 118mg of Astragaloside IV.


dfowler...
Now, I gave the forum this CoA back on July 18th of this year to do this sort of calculation. (link to post).
I provided the CoA's to help folks get a handle on this. (Yes, dfowler, even po' folk).

Now, is 50:1 astragalus cheap, and more importantly... will it work?
You all really need to make an educated decision on those questions.

Cheers
A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 21 November 2011 - 05:19 AM.

[mrkosh1]

mrkosh1 said:

RevGenetics also seems to be a bit secretive about their information. For example, they chose not to reveal test information, and write a paper about it instead.

Hi mrkosh1,
It's not that we don't want to tell you directly what the results were (trust me, I totally want to tell everyone). However, the time sensitive nature of your grandmother, has me telling you that I personally do not recommend Product B. Go buy TA-65 which I do recommend, if you find a 90 to 1 Astragalus extract let me know (since 50 to 1 and 25 to 1 show no statistical significance in vitro testing), or buy Astral Fruit when we finally have it available.

dfowler said:

and now the supplement anti aging industry is doing the same thing, to alienate us poorer people.

Alienate poor people? That is your opinion on it, seriously?

A

Dear Anthony,

Thank you for your response. Also, thank you for clarifying that you do not recommend Product B.

My concern about TA65 and related astragalus substances is that the telomerase boosting effect is weak. My understanding is that at best it might lengthen the shortest telomeres over a long period of time. At worst it may have little effect at all. What I've been hoping to find out is if anyone has a GRAS telomerase inducer that is actually strong. I was hoping Product B might contain some potent telomerase inducers, because I remember reading somewhere on the Sierra Sciences site that TA65 scores a .2 on their telomerase induction scale, and they have found a GRAS compound that scored a 1. This would be a much stronger telomerase inducer. In recent times, we have heard that Sierra Sciences has discovered a GRAS substance that scores a 3 on their scale. However, they will not share any additional information.

Do you know of any telomerase inducers that are more potent than TA65 or related substances? I know that you are doing testing of various substances that may induce telomerase. If you could share the information you obtain it would be very helpful to many people.

My personal problem is that before I am able to convince my family to allow me to convince my grandmother to take a telomerase inducer, I'm going to have to justify the risk of side effects vs. the reward, and the cost of the supplement. I don't know if taking a weak telomerase inducer is worth the possible side effects. My grandmother has a weak immune system, a sensitive stomach, and a throat that gives her swallowing problems. A side effect that might be minor on someone like myself, might be major on her. I had a waking nightmare last night of getting her to take a telomerase inducer, and it causing a side effect (that would be very minor for a young person) that put her into the hospital. Unless I can honestly say that the telomerase inducer is potent enough to potentially provide significant benefits, I don't know if I can justify recommending it. Also, my family and relatives are on the lower to middle end of the economic spectrum. My grandmother lives off social security and a tiny check from the church due to her being a pastors wife for 49 years. I think a potent telomerase inducer would be worth hundreds or thousands of dollars over the period of a year, but I am not convinced a weak telomerase inducer would be worth it.

I really think a potent telomerase inducer is our best hope for an anti-aging drug. I'm just hoping that if any company has discovered a potent GRAS telomerase inducer, they will share it with the world.

[maxwatt]

50:1 extracts have to be standardized to some component, for in order to get 1 part for 50 parts of the herb, you have to take something out besides fiber (lignin and cellulose) and water. u The most you can get from most herbal material is a 12:1 ratio or as much as 20:1 ration in some cases. This is according to the Hunan Technical University's school of pharmacy and pharmacology. So I am wondering just what a 50:1 extract might consist of.

[Anthony_Loera]

I don't know maxwatt,

can you help by paying for and providing a CoA or study on 25:1 or 50:1 astragalus extracts?
It might be informative to know what you find.

Let us know when you can do that, please.

A

[mrkosh1]

I guess a good question might be, "How much does it cost to test a substance for telomerase induction?"

I hope that with modern technology it is not too awful high. I read recently that soon the cost to sequence an entire human genome will only be $1,000 dollars or less. Perhaps in the not too distant future it will cost less than that to test a substance for telomerase induction?

[1kgcoffee]

Thankya 'sa.

I've been experimenting these past few days with 50-75grams of raw, unextracted, finely ground astragalus root powder dissolved in water. The taste is sweet. This may sound strange, but my ass and stomach feel tighter after taking it... Have you experienced a similar effect from astragalus derived products? Also, it could be imaginination, but my hair seems slightly darker. It seemed to stop a cold that was coming on. Totally subjective.. but hey.

I would like to find out what is being extracted besides fiber? What solvents are being used, under temperature and pressure? Are they removing or damaging some of the other beneficial compounds?

50:1 extract is not cheap, but 50grams of the unrefined stuff only costs $1, and it subjectively seems to be doing something at 10-15% TA65 dose. Maybe you don't need as much at the age of 25. I'll continue to play around with it.

[jamesagreen]

See Telomerase Activators at
http://greenwdks.for...LPHABETICSELECT ,
which lists 120 telomerase activators (inducers) under investigation. There is a backup site for this at
http://greenray.free...LPHABETICSELECT .
Also, there a number of endogenous telomerase activators. See
http://greenwdks.for...ERASEACTIVATORS and
the backup site at
http://greenray.free...ERASEACTIVATORS .

In addition, it is useful to use telomerase inhibitors in the second phase of a cycle of
a telomerase activator phase (2 weeks), followed by a telomerase inhibitor phase (2 weeks).
For a lengthy list of telomerase inhibitors under investigation, see
http://greenwdks.for...LPHABETICSELECT and the backup site
http://greenray.free...LPHABETICSELECT .

Science journals and books contain an immense amount of information of telomerase
activators and inhibitors, for which it is necessary to scan quite a volume of articles and
books with search engines such as Google. However, Sierra Sciences has discovered
more telomerase inducers that are not even mentioned in science lab reports and books,
and patents by carrying out a determined program of high-throughput testing. This was
used to derive components for IsAgenix Product B, which I am examining using Internet
searches instead of a lab facility, although this has its limits. Leading information on Product B
is available on the Product B Exporer at
http://greenwdks.for...fexnotes11.html and at its backup site
http://greenray.free...fexnotes11.html .

- Jim Green,
http://greenwdks.for.../longevity.html
http://greenray.free.../longevity.html

[Mind]

If memory serves me correctly James, it seems you have been using telomerase inducers for a while now. Does it "work". Do feel great? Look great? Feel rejuvenated? Any objective data? Have your aging bio-markers improved?

[ChrisHardeman]

The Astragaloside IV has the glycone groups "beta-d-Xylose and beta-d-glucose". These two sugar groups on Astragaloside IV might be difficult to removed early in the gut to generate the aglycone cycloastragenol and then be absorbed.

However, this may prove to be an issue with bioavailability if we have cycloastragenol formed only in the the large intestine.
If the later is the case, I could see the importance of using the cycloastragenol form (with plant sugars removed) for greater bioavailability at the outset.

So the reason I think T.A. Sciences is using TA-65 in pure form, probably to insure careful control over dosage and purity of product, eliminating unknowns in "The Patton Protocol" study. Why would you pay all your hard earned money out, just buy some inexpensive astragaloside sugars in a few capsules and swallow down along with a couple of beano’s. The beanos could cleave off the glycone groups in situ and viola your cycloastragenol.

“Long Live You and Your Money”

Chris h

see http://en.wikipedia....side_hydrolases

Also

http://en.wikipedia....ary_supplement)



Post Edited (chris h) :

[Ampa-omega]

James,
what do you think of using epithalon? or similiar peptides

Edited by Ampa-omega, 05 January 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[Anthony_Loera]

James,
what do you think of using epithalon? or similiar peptides

I think that's listed first on his list that he linked to.

A

[Anthony_Loera]

James,

BTW: I agree with your thoughts on Product B on your website, and have seen tests that are aligned with them. I simply cannot recommend it in it's present form to anyone.

A

[Ampa-omega]

James,
what do you think of using epithalon? or similiar peptides

I think that's listed first on his list that he linked to.

A

ya I've read that, although he doesn't go into much detail on it, it would be nice to know if he would consider using it in his regimen.

[revenant]

I've had several years of very positive results.

Soak astraglaus root (1 lb) in 1500 ml of Everclear for 2 months before straining it. Drink 1 oz of the potent tincture every other night before bed (Mon, Wed, Fri, Sun). Skip a week, then resume.

Save supps like fish oil, garlic, resveratrol, reishi, he shou wu, or anything else that may impede or destroy telemorase for morning, but it is very important to take them. The telemorase should be destroyed the next morning every time, reishi works well. This is just what I do folks.

[1kgcoffee]

What do you consider positive results?

[Hebbeh]

I've had several years of very positive results.

Soak astraglaus root (1 lb) in 1500 ml of Everclear for 2 months before straining it. Drink 1 oz of the potent tincture every other night before bed (Mon, Wed, Fri, Sun). Skip a week, then resume.

Save supps like fish oil, garlic, resveratrol, reishi, he shou wu, or anything else that may impede or destroy telemorase for morning, but it is very important to take them. The telemorase should be destroyed the next morning every time, reishi works well. This is just what I do folks.

And how have you measured your results? What is your age? What have you experienced? How has your health changed or improved over the past several years of this protocol? Are you obviously healthier in some way? Can any possible benefits be attributed to any other changes or supplements?

[revenant]

I am healthy and active at 44. I have been taking anti-aging suppplements over the past 12 years, including carnosine, alcar, ALA, saponins, etc. I look and feel better than I did when I was 35. I take he shou wu, reishi, go tu kola and other herbs. Out of all the stuff I take and do, I credit the carnosine and the astragalus most for making me perhaps age backwards in a way. I can feel it the mornings after I take the atragalus, vitality, rejuvinated. As far as measurements, I think the stuff caused me to drop about 15 lbs. My grey hairs have mostly gone, I used to have a bunch. My lipids profile is good. I don't really have any reason to have tests run. I should have my telomeres checked for a baseline at some point I guess. I will just keep doing what I'm doing until I don't die.

Edited by revenant, 06 January 2012 - 06:14 AM.

[Hebbeh]

Soak astraglaus root (1 lb) in 1500 ml of Everclear for 2 months before straining it. Drink 1 oz of the potent tincture every other night before bed (Mon, Wed, Fri, Sun). Skip a week, then resume.

I am healthy and active at 44. I have been taking anti-aging suppplements over the past 12 years, including carnosine, alcar, ALA, saponins, etc. I look and feel better than I did when I was 35. I take he shou wu, reishi, go tu kola and other herbs. Out of all the stuff I take and do, I credit the carnosine and the astragalus most for making me perhaps age backwards in a way. I can feel it the mornings after I take the atragalus, vitality, rejuvinated. As far as measurements, I think the stuff caused me to drop about 15 lbs. My grey hairs have mostly gone, I used to have a bunch. My lipids profile is good. I don't really have any reason to have tests run. I should have my telomeres checked for a baseline at some point I guess. I will just keep doing what I'm doing until I don't die.

I thought you said you take the astragalus at night? Now you are saying yoiu take the astragalus in the morning? With an ounce ot everclear? I would credit the "vitality" to an ounce of pure grain alcohol first thing in the morning...I'm sure that does open your eyes. And it sounds like you are taking dozens of herbal exrtracts....any benefits could be due to any one...or the whole combination....absolutely no way to tell.

[revenant]

I thought you said you take the astragalus at night? Now you are saying yoiu take the astragalus in the morning? With an ounce ot everclear? I would credit the "vitality" to an ounce of pure grain alcohol first thing in the morning...I'm sure that does open your eyes. And it sounds like you are taking dozens of herbal exrtracts....any benefits could be due to any one...or the whole combination....absolutely no way to tell.

Sorry for the confusion. What I meant was, I feel great the mornings after taking the alcohol tincture before bed. You are correct, there is no way of telling for sure if astragalus is responsible for any precieved benefits. I am just conveying my experience as best I can. I did begin to notice a difference in energy and general health maybe a month after I began taking astragalus. But again, this is my perception. I have not been sick at all. Of this I am sure. Reason enough for me to continue taking the stuff. I've been taking the other herbs and supps for much longer,

[Hebbeh]

I thought you said you take the astragalus at night? Now you are saying yoiu take the astragalus in the morning? With an ounce ot everclear? I would credit the "vitality" to an ounce of pure grain alcohol first thing in the morning...I'm sure that does open your eyes. And it sounds like you are taking dozens of herbal exrtracts....any benefits could be due to any one...or the whole combination....absolutely no way to tell.

Sorry for the confusion. What I meant was, I feel great the mornings after taking the alcohol tincture before bed. You are correct, there is no way of telling for sure if astragalus is responsible for any precieved benefits. I am just conveying my experience as best I can. I did begin to notice a difference in energy and general health maybe a month after I began taking astragalus. But again, this is my perception. I have not been sick at all. Of this I am sure. Reason enough for me to continue taking the stuff. I've been taking the other herbs and supps for much longer,

Yes astragalus is supposed to benefit the immune system....not so sure about the everclear.. ..and I've been using an astragalus extract for quite a while and can't remember the last time I was sick also...but like you, am supplementing with a number of other herbals, etc too. I've been taking my astragalus double dose in the morning though...wonder if morning or evening dosing has any advantages...of course, as mentioned earlier, everclear in the morning probably not so much..

[thenetworkestate@gmail.com]

TA-65 is legit in slowing telomere loss but not strong enough to increase telomere length much. The only three groups that have demonstrated techniques for elongating telomeres in vivo are Geron Corp., Sierra Sciences, and Telomolecular corp. The latter is apparently defunct as it was chased out of business by the government who thought that there anti-aging claims were bogused. As I understand, they had the most powerful method for elongating telomeres in animals.

99% of telomerase stimulators are garbage, however, TA-65 may have a real benefit and strong products will be hitting the markets soon.

[jamesagreen]

Now see Telomerase Activators at
http://greenray4ever...LPHABETICSELECT
and Telomerase Inhibitors at
http://greenray4evee...LPHABETICSELECT .
See also The Product B Explorer at
http://greenray4ever...fexnotes11.html .

[Logic]

Now see Telomerase Activators at
http://greenray4ever...LPHABETICSELECT
and Telomerase Inhibitors at
http://greenray4evee...LPHABETICSELECT .
See also The Product B Explorer at
http://greenray4ever...fexnotes11.html .

James for admin of all things Telomeres!

I have not seen a more comprehensive and well researched, actionable telomerase activation tomb anywhere!?

James, your site is often down due to too much traffic.
I read somewhere here that longecity was happy to host good relavent content. Perhaps our admin has more info, if you are amenable?