85 replies to this topic

[Methos000]

Perhaps you'll find some hints here....
http://en.wikipedia....i/Li_Ching-Yuen

Yes, I'm aware of that claim. That's why I was careful to specify no one has been shown to have lived longer. When such claims are investigated, they've always either been shown to be nonsense, or there is simply no convincing evidence for them due to lack of careful documentation. You could claim that someone born in 1073 lived until 1776 due to his habits of meditation and consumption of chinese herbs; I say unless you have truly extraordinary evidence for this, it almost certainly didn't happen. And if it DID happen, we're probably inside an episode of Highlander.

[Robert89]

*sigh* you are so missing the point that you aren't going to be able ot secure anything.

No offense, but you are missing the point of defending a copyrighted work in a legal setting, by securing the document as best we can.

A

Anthony thou doth protest too much.
it is you who are missing the point.
So just in case you haven't gotten it yet...let me be ever so blunt...
This is totally about you protecting your ass because you are now selling TA65.
It's like the emperors new clothes. So obvious.

I do see what MissMinni is saying:

TA Sciences kept the specific ingredients of TA-65 hidden, and Anthony from RevGenetics broke that secret wide open, namely that TA-65 is a 200 USD product for 5mg of Cycloastragenol, which Anthony sold for 25/35 USD earlier (I am going from what I read on this website). I was one of those who was extremely happy to have this information finally out into the public domain.
But later, strangely, the RevGenetics product was removed from sale, and now they only sell the TA-65, 200 USD product.
I am afraid the trust has been broken.

Plus, the fact that cycloastragenol is such a poorly bio-available product, you need to take a 20mg dose to get a decent amount into the blood stream.
At the TA-65 prices, that means about 800 USD / month. Or 100-140 USD/ month at the old RevGenetics price.

GreenPower, thanks for your data.

Edited by Robert89, 22 November 2011 - 12:03 PM.

[hamishm00]

The old revgenetics price was VERY good, and since the astral fruit product was a great product from a great supplier, I would still be buying from them and I'm sure they would be selling good quantities of the Astral fruit product. It's probably fair to speculate that perhaps there was an issue with the product (such as bioavailability). Anthony has pledged to improve the product, and re-release it although he's not saying when (fair enough!).

To say the trust has been broken is extreme and unwarranted. People are quick to forget all the work Anthony has done, and the input he provides on this forum.

The trust is still very much alive, and I'm eagerly awaiting the release of his new astral fruit product and the dumping of TA-65 which is horrendously overpriced to the point that I refuse to buy it (even though my supplements budget is, relatively speaking, quite extensive).

[missminni]

*sigh* you are so missing the point that you aren't going to be able ot secure anything.

No offense, but you are missing the point of defending a copyrighted work in a legal setting, by securing the document as best we can.

A

Anthony thou doth protest too much.
it is you who are missing the point.
So just in case you haven't gotten it yet...let me be ever so blunt...
This is totally about you protecting your ass because you are now selling TA65.
It's like the emperors new clothes. So obvious.

I do see what MissMinni is saying:

TA Sciences kept the specific ingredients of TA-65 hidden, and Anthony from RevGenetics broke that secret wide open, namely that TA-65 is a 200 USD product for 5mg of Cycloastragenol, which Anthony sold for 25/35 USD earlier (I am going from what I read on this website). I was one of those who was extremely happy to have this information finally out into the public domain.
But later, strangely, the RevGenetics product was removed from sale, and now they only sell the TA-65, 200 USD product.
I am afraid the trust has been broken.

Plus, the fact that cycloastragenol is such a poorly bio-available product, you need to take a 20mg dose to get a decent amount into the blood stream.
At the TA-65 prices, that means about 800 USD / month. Or 100-140 USD/ month at the old RevGenetics price.

GreenPower, thanks for your data.

The price of course is an issue, a big issue, but even more of an issue is knowing what you are actually putting in your body.
We are all so eager to live forever we prematurely jump on anything that promises it. Products that work in vitro rarely work as effectively in vivo,
and who knows what side effects are possible in the absence of clinical studies to determine that. This is especially true of TA65 that was shrouded
in secrecy and obscene overpricing.
Furthermore there has not been a fair evaluation of TA65's impact on cancer since reports have been suppressed. Granted it might not be greater
than in a placebo group, but how can we know if records are not truthfully kept.
When the company that is profiting from the product is your source of information you can be assured that information is filtered through the business lens.

When Anthony stopped selling Astral Fruit, reason being it's poor bio availability, I was surprised and impressed. That was an unusual move for someone to make
in the midst of selling a profitable product. Why he would then sell the same product at a higher price from another resource was a bit baffling. He has yet to explain this and seems to revert to the smokescreen of the pdf being vulnerable to manipulation. Being that TA65 was considerably more expensive than Astral Fruit, perhaps the profit motive factors in.

What I think happened is that TA65 was not as effective as promised, and was not selling well. I guess even rich people with money to burn felt burnt. I've spoken to a few of them. As in any business, low sales results in overstock which brings the need to unload product and the need for more retail outlets. Hence the coming together of competitors. Offer the competitor the product at a low enough price for him to make a healthy profit and all benefit, except of course the consumer. Business as usual.

[hav]

...
"Standardised Astragalus Root Extract", 11 months
During 11 months I have been taken the following supplements and done the following activities.

• 10 months on Standardised Astragalus Root Powdered Extract (1mg [0.5%] triterpene glycolides) 225mg, Raw Astragalus Root Powder 250mg, taking one pill in the morning and one during late afternoon, ...

...
"Standardised Astragalus Root Extract"
6 months on Astragalus Root Extract (0.5% glucosides, 70% polysaccharides) including Raw Astragalus Root Powder, Gingko Biloba, Orlistat (phasing out), "Adidas miCoach Get Fit Stay Fit - Level 4" (3-4 months) and Meditation (3-4 months) rendered the following changes from the last period.
...

Hi, Greenpower. Looks like you changed from an extract standardized to 70% polysaccharides to one standardized to 0.5% triterpenes (Solgar; glycosides?) and got somewhat better results than in your earlier tests. If I got that right, it suggests that the triterpenes are important. Makes me wonder if cimicifuga racemosa with its similar content might also be effective. Other things high in triterpenes are ginkgo, which you are also taking, as well as gotu and horse chestnut.

Howard

Edited by hav, 22 November 2011 - 04:23 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

When Anthony stopped selling Astral Fruit, reason being it's poor bio availability, I was surprised and impressed. That was an unusual move for someone to make
in the midst of selling a profitable product. Why he would then sell the same product at a higher price from another resource was a bit baffling. He has yet to explain this and seems to revert to the smokescreen of the pdf being vulnerable to manipulation. Being that TA65 was considerably more expensive than Astral Fruit, perhaps the profit motive factors in.

What I think happened is that TA65 was not as effective as promised, and was not selling well. I guess even rich people with money to burn felt burnt. I've spoken to a few of them. As in any business, low sales results in overstock which brings the need to unload product and the need for more retail outlets. Hence the coming together of competitors. Offer the competitor the product at a low enough price for him to make a healthy profit and all benefit, except of course the consumer. Business as usual.

You make very valid points and ask very good questions. I would like Anthony to actually respond to it as well.

[maxwatt]

I surmise that TA65/cycloastrogenol proved to be not a very effective telomerase activator,. Anthony exhausted his stock, and I know he is working on other avenues, and has some positive lab results which he is not ready to commercialize until he has his ducks in a row. Or until his researcher publishes. In the meantime, he makes the competitor's product available for those who want it, albeit somewhat overpriced. He may be avoiding a lawsuit by agreeing to do this, just my guess. I'll be looking for the publication of the paper.

[Anthony_Loera]

To say the trust has been broken is extreme and unwarranted. People are quick to forget all the work Anthony has done, and the input he provides on this forum.

Thank you hamishm00 and Howard,

Astral Fruit is still being researched, I am sorry for the delay. (If I could I would have the product out already).

Howard is spot on, in his remarks.

Robert89, I am sorry you feel that way. As you recall the $25 was to sell AstralFruit-C off (not the NF version). I also mentioned why that was done. Since that pricing will likely never come back for any verified astragalus based telomerase activator, then you are stuck with the 25:1 or 50:1 astragalus extracts calculations... (which I tested and posted for everyone here).

Missminni, You still have not acknowledged my last post, and I can't consider your arguments about anything until you do. To me it certainly makes you appear to be emotional about your rant rather than logical (I can work with logic... ) However talking to a very emotional person, is like trying to use incense smoke as a medium to paint a picture of the Sistine Chapel:

So what is really eating you up?
Because a fair person would note that the same information would be provided back to you again... yet you don't care to acknowledge that.

A

[Anthony_Loera]

The TA-65/Cycloastragenol lab test is back, in a secured format:

The Secure file is found here
http://www.cycloastr...65-original.enc

The secure file reader is found here (to read secured pdf's):
http://www.artistsco...fePDFreader.exe

I hope this settles things.
A

[Robert89]

Robert89, I am sorry you feel that way. As you recall the $25 was to sell AstralFruit-C off (not the NF version). I also mentioned why that was done. Since that pricing will likely never come back for any verified astragalus based telomerase activator, then you are stuck with the 25:1 or 50:1 astragalus extracts calculations... (which I tested and posted for everyone here).
A

Well, you were selling 5mg of cycloastragenol (called AstraFruit-C) for $25 (or $50 full price), and now sell 5mg of cycloastragenol (called TA-65) for $200.

Whether it's $25, $50 or $200 for a month supply, the key ingredient is the same. Plus it seems rather odd this stuff was selling for $25,000/ year supply when T.A. Sciences first released it 3 years ago.

You can't expect us all here to be a bit let down at your pricing policy. For sure TA Sciences have acted without good business sense and preyed on unsuspecting 'well off' customers. However, it was YOU that uncovered the TA Sciences shenanigans!

[Anthony_Loera]

Robert,

I dont have a pricing policy on Astral Fruit, because we aren't even selling it right now. We are following the suggested retail price for TA-65 at this time, that is all.

I have provided you all good data. Now, what are you going to do with it? Simply complain about pricing that you don't like?

When i bought my first bottle of resveratrol back in 2006, did i settle for a measly 5mg of 8% resveratrol with who nows how much emodin?

If it really means something, you will take the reins, instead of complaining. I am working on a telomerase activator that is not Astragalus based, and my resources are limited to this research so i cannot provide you Astral Fruit-C again.

A new Astral Fruit is needed. But until then, you guys have enough info to get together and make things happen.

A

[missminni]

Missminni, You still have not acknowledged my last post, and I can't consider your arguments about anything until you do. To me it certainly makes you appear to be emotional about your rant rather than logical (I can work with logic... ) However talking to a very emotional person, is like trying to use incense smoke as a medium to paint a picture of the Sistine Chapel:

So what is really eating you up?
Because a fair person would note that the same information would be provided back to you again... yet you don't care to acknowledge that.

A

Please Anthony, emotional is the last thing I've been. Your misogyny is showing . You can cover yourself anyway you want....and have Maxwatt cover for you too...being that you financially support this forum. Just a slight conflict of interest wouldn't you say?
All my points are rationale and valid and you know it. The new document you posted is unavailable to me since the reader required to open it is only in pc format and cannot be used on a mac.
You still have not explained why you are selling a product at more than twice the price that is exactly the same as the one you discontinued due to it not being bio-available. You have managed to consistently skirt that issue but artfully had Maxwatt try to ease you out of a tight spot. Hmmm...how disappointing. I thought he had more integrity....but money talks and your money is sure talking.

[Anthony_Loera]

Missminni,

You are attacking maxwatt now? He was actually on your side when you started your rant about the pdf. Again... a little emotional are we?

A

[missminni]

Missminni,

You are attacking maxwatt now? He was actually on your side when you started your rant about the pdf. Again... a little emotional are we?

A

I am calling it the way I see it. I'm sure Maxwatt understands. We are friends. The truth is not always pretty.
Calling me emotional is such a pathetic attempt at avoiding the truth and consistent with your condescending replies to all who disagree with you.
Once again I reiterate that your financial support of this forum presents a conflict of interests.

[Anthony_Loera]

Oh i see...

You being a registered user, pay nothing to support this non-profit forum. So you are somehow better suited to understand why i pay for a banner in the resveratrol forum.

I assure you, my banner is a pittence, but i like the forum, its message... and come here often for new information.

So why do you come to the forum, and decline any membership in it when it appears you get a lot of benefit from the nonprofit through folks like me that post CoAs, and other information?

You certainly seem like you take advantage of the info and the admins, such as your friend maxwatt.

Why am i selling TA-65 at the suggested retail price, rather than Astral Fruit at a lower price? Astral Fruit is not ready. If you want to get together with others to buy your own astragalus extracts, i won't stop you.

But, at the very least, you should consider membership here, to give back for the information you recieve here.

Cheers
A

[Methos000]

Once again I reiterate that your financial support of this forum presents a conflict of interests.

It might be so if this were a site dedicated to impartial editorial reviews of nutritional supplements. The moderators here have no such duties to the best of my knowledge. We all discuss supplements freely here, and no poster's contribution need be verified by the moderators for accuracy. Given this, I'm uncertain how Anthony's participation here is a 'Conflict of Interests'.

Edited by Methos000, 22 November 2011 - 06:37 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

I am curious as to why this discussion is getting so petty with the insults and condescending tone. It really isnt neccessary.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 22 November 2011 - 06:54 PM.

[maxwatt]

What was manipulated, is someone posted the AACL lab test results with the Revgenetics Logo and contact information removed. This is clearly unethical, and the person apologized and blamed it on staff. I do think Anthony is being unfairly maligned; though I sympathize with his position, would not a warning with the posted document to the effect it cannot be disseminated unless unaltered and due credit give, have sufficed? Or is the composition also a trade secret Anthony needs to protect?

[missminni]

Once again I reiterate that your financial support of this forum presents a conflict of interests.

It might be so if this were a site dedicated to impartial editorial reviews of nutritional supplements. The moderators here have no such duties to the best of my knowledge. We all discuss supplements freely here, and no poster's contribution need be verified by the moderators for accuracy. Given this, I'm uncertain how Anthony's participation here is a 'Conflict of Interests'.

ImmInst.org hosts an online forum, publishes books, creates films, sponsors conferences and supports a varied portfolio of community projects in life-extension research and activism.
ImmInst.org is governed by a board of 7 directors who are elected for a 2-year term by the membership. Many ImmInst.org activities are managed by an Executive Director who is appointed by the board. Membership status is acquired by donation as a student, regular or lifetime member.
ImmInst.org is supported by donations and by sponsored advertising. To make a one-time donation or to become a member of ImmInst.org, please see the "Donate" page.
ImmInst.org was founded in 2002 by Bruce J. Klein.

[stephen_b]

Once again I reiterate that your financial support of this forum presents a conflict of interests.

I am personally comfortable with Anthony being a poster and an advertiser/supporter. Longecity doesn't seem to be in the pocket of big pharma (big supplement?). People aren't prevented from making an informed decision about products and discussing it.

I value seeing test results from an independent lab of products I am considering. That said, the issue with the secure pdfs seems a bit overblown. I would encourage RevGenetics to do the minimum they have to to assert copyright protection.

[Anthony_Loera]

You not giving back, while you take advantage of a non-profit group... yes, it's a sore spot.

It reminds me of a few issues we had at another non-profit I used to work at called the Miami Lighthouse for the Blind:
http://www.miamilighthouse.com/

So, yes... you got me there.
A

P.S. These folks need software, and money for braille machines. So if you got an extra few bucks to help educate blind children, send it on their way please.

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 22 November 2011 - 07:14 PM.

[missminni]

You not giving back, while you take advantage of a non-profit group... yes, it's a sore spot.

It reminds me of a few issues we had at another non-profit I used to work at called the Miami Lighthouse for the Blind:
http://www.miamilighthouse.com/

So, yes... you got me there.
A

P.S. These folks need software, and money for braille machines. So if you got an extra few bucks to help educate blind children, send it on their way please.

your argument is totally self serving. I understand your predicament. Let's leave it at that.

[Anthony_Loera]

What happened missminni, deleting your "must have hit a sore spot" posts now?

See.. now my "Miami lighthouse for the blind" post makes no sense without your deleted post... ah well.

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 22 November 2011 - 07:25 PM.

[missminni]

What happened missminni, deleting your "must have hit a sore spot" posts now?

See.. now my "Miami lighthouse for the blind" post makes no sense without your deleted post... ah well.

A

I deleted them so as not to bore readers with this ever deteriorating argument you wish to pursue.

[Anthony_Loera]

I was not the one to go over and over initially about imaginary 'nefarious' intents.

I am finally glad you can see the attacks were emotional and unwarranted, as they stemmed from me simply wanting to secure a copyrighted PDF. Personally, I am glad it's over.

A

[missminni]

I am once again deleting a post in the name of civility...mine cause my response was really sarcastic.
I wish you well Anthony.

Edited by missminni, 22 November 2011 - 07:48 PM.

[Anthony_Loera]

I was not the one to go over and over initially about imaginary 'nefarious' intents.

I am finally glad you can see the attacks were emotional and unwarranted, as they stemmed from me simply wanting to secure a copyrighted PDF. Personally, I am glad it's over.

A

Oh please.
Are you insane? Maybe you think this will hold up in a court of law as the final word.
You are truly a desperado to have posted this. Wow. unbelievable.

Does this mean that you are correcting my assumption in my last post?
For now, I will take your Desperado comment to mean that I am a romanticized outlaw of the old west...

Thanks missminni!
A

[missminni]

I was not the one to go over and over initially about imaginary 'nefarious' intents.

I am finally glad you can see the attacks were emotional and unwarranted, as they stemmed from me simply wanting to secure a copyrighted PDF. Personally, I am glad it's over.

A

Oh please.
Are you insane? Maybe you think this will hold up in a court of law as the final word.
You are truly a desperado to have posted this. Wow. unbelievable.

Does this mean that you are correcting my assumption in my last post?
For now, I will take your Desperado comment to mean that I am a romanticized outlaw of the old west...

Thanks missminni!
A

lol
you're very welcome
so nice to see you have a sense of humor.

[Methos000]

I was not the one to go over and over initially about imaginary 'nefarious' intents.

I am finally glad you can see the attacks were emotional and unwarranted, as they stemmed from me simply wanting to secure a copyrighted PDF. Personally, I am glad it's over.

A

Oh please.
Are you insane? Maybe you think this will hold up in a court of law as the final word.
You are truly a desperado to have posted this. Wow. unbelievable.

Does this mean that you are correcting my assumption in my last post?
For now, I will take your Desperado comment to mean that I am a romanticized outlaw of the old west...

Thanks missminni!
A

I'd personally like to see a telomerase fight at the Cycloastragenol Corral or
you could challenge her to Resveratrol at 15 paces!

It's yer call, Vitamin slinger!

[chrono]

I split this thread off from the main astragaloside thread, because it's a vendor issue, and mostly petty bickering. The squabbling and ad hominem insinuations seem to have stopped, so I'll leave this open for now.

I replaced the old attachments with the new links Anthony posted today. The proprietary software is more inconvenient, and only available for PC, but how he wishes to release his content is his decision. Just for future reference, if a moderator takes down a file because the (putative) copyright holder is working with us to resolve an issue they have, do not simply re-post it without permission. If the party in question was not also a member here, it could place us in legal jeopardy. And in general, just because someone posts an attachment on this board, it does not mean that you are entitled to re-release it yourself. Please do not post the original again on this board.

And just to be clear, I have no opinion of the products being discussed here. I have not read the main astragaloside thread in over a year. I would have done the same for any user-generated content that another user had reposted without permission, if requested.

Edited by chrono, 23 November 2011 - 04:34 AM.