42 replies to this topic

[choqueiro]

Hi.

I´ve been looking to all the threads about this two supplements. I´m a little bit concerned about my anxiety and depression.

Right now I´m taking bacopa (from Planetary) and Ginkgo (from Nature´s Way) on a daily basis (4 pills of each one). I want to improve my mental capacities but I think that if anxiety and depression are behind my memory issues, bacopa angd ginkgo alone are not going to make the "miracle". In any case it´s too early to take any conclusion, because it´s my second week on bacopa and ginkgo and as you know bacopa neeeds at least some weeks (studies suggested 12 weeks) to see any results.

As I said at the beginning I think that my big problems right now are anxiety and depression. I´ve been suffering these health concerns long time and I think that they are the cause of most of my actual problems as memory issues or poor dream quality. Even though bacopa and ginkgo could help with anxiety and depression I think that in severe cases as mine, something more powerful it´s a must.

I´ve heard positive things about this two supplements, but I´m not sure which one would suit with me.

Sam-e seems to be a vey good option specailly for the treatment of depression but it can also raises the anxiety levels after his consumption (side effect) and I´m a little bit afraid about it, because my levels of anxiety are really high. Should I try it anyway??

5-htp doesn´t seem to raise anxiety levels but I don´t know if it would be as effective as Sam-e.

Are this two supplements the best way to fight anxiety and depression?? Which one is the best?? Any risks in the long term?? Are they compatible with my actual regime of bacopa and ginkgo??

Any opinion would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[summer stars]

5-HTP makes me very relaxed...too relaxed, I go to sleep whenever I take it. I'm sleepy in general, though, and very sensitive to anything that might make it worse. The time-released version has this effect moreso than regular. However, 5-HTP has a very short half-life, so you might want to try timed release anyway. It also reduces my appetite down to almost nothing, which I suppose could be a positive or negative depending on how you feel about your appetite.

[choqueiro]

Thanks summer stars. Relax is what I need but excess of relax couldn´t be the ideal for me.

I´m an anxious person and been relax is something positive but I´m also depressive and excces of relax could be harmful because depression affects my general mood making me feel without energy and aphathy. I need something that makes me feel with energy but without any undesirable side effect that raises my anxiety more.

Could Sam-e be the clue or is not recommended for an anxious person?? Any experiences??

[choqueiro]

Any comments?? Any experiences??

[tintinet]

SAMe did nothing for me, except drain my financial accounts. It might have increased my anxiety slightly. I haven't experimented much with 5-HTP.

[choqueiro]

No positive comments for any of this substances?? Any other susbstance to treat depression succesfully??

I´m doing yoga and meditation to help with anxiety and depression but I think that I´m going to need something more. Any opinion would be appreciated.

Thanks

[MrHappy]

Have you read the gpc, uridine, dha thread?

http://www.longecity...ne-uridine-dha/

Amongst other things, that regimen has had a few permanent, positive results for people with depression, ocd and anxiety, including my wife.

Edit: this new version of IP Board reader mobile app keep adding thumbnails and (null). Hmmmm silly.

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Edited by MrHappy, 09 December 2011 - 09:54 PM.

[snuffie]

I have experimented with 5-HTP and SAMe. I took the 5-HTP before bed because of the sleepiness aspect, not for long enough to form any strong opinions about it. I'll have to give it another try. The SAMe was really activating. It was great initially, but way too much. After 3 days my blood pressure was through the roof and I was getting manic. I felt GREAT mentally (low-grade mania is awesome) but I also felt like my heart was going to explode. Dose was 200mg in the morning, with 300mg Wellbutrin XL - maybe they intensify each other, I dunno. Anyway, if I could find a lower dose, I'd totally take it. Maybe every other day...

Can you access rTMS where you live? I found it really helpful for both anxiety & depression.

*oh yeah, also, if you aren't taking omega 3s, add those...I have found them helpful, for sure.

Edited by snuffie, 09 December 2011 - 10:44 PM.

[Connor MacLeod]

No positive comments for any of this substances?? Any other susbstance to treat depression succesfully??

I´m doing yoga and meditation to help with anxiety and depression but I think that I´m going to need something more. Any opinion would be appreciated.

Thanks

There are studies which have shown a link between severe depression, elevated homocysteine, and decreased serum and CSF folate levels (search depression+folate+homocysteine on www.scholar.google.com) Supplementation of folate and B-12, which play key roles in the recycling of homocysteine to methionine (look here), have been shown to bring homocysteine levels down, and raise serum and CSF folate levels. Betaine (trimethylglycine) is another supplement which is used to bring down homocysteine levels; this works via a different metabolic pathway (look here) that is not dependent on folate metabolism.

By the way, you should probably avoid folic acid (a synthetic folate which is widely used in multivitamins) as there are a couple studies which indicate an association with increased rates of some forms of cancer, e.g. lung cancer. Folinic acid (calcium folinate) the preferred form; it is available from www.iherb.com.

Finally, some people can get a little revved up from these supplements so its probably best to take them in earlier in the day.

Edited by Connor MacLeod, 10 December 2011 - 08:01 AM.

[Llama Chris]

I have a bit of an issue with anxiety and depression; and every time I take SAM-e I find the same thing: to begin with me, it seems to make me really energetic and happy and positive - which obviously in turn also helps with anxiety - but always after only a few days on it I get REALLY irritable, and start lashing out at people for the smallest things.

[tintinet]

I have a bit of an issue with anxiety and depression; and every time I take SAM-e I find the same thing: to begin with me, it seems to make me really energetic and happy and positive - which obviously in turn also helps with anxiety - but always after only a few days on it I get REALLY irritable, and start lashing out at people for the smallest things.

Oddly, that's exactly how I feel today, a week and a half into uridine and CDP-choline.

[MrHappy]

You mentioned on the uridine thread that you are only taking half the regimen - ie. you're missing the important cofactors.

If that's the case, I'd be thinking you're currently B vitamin deficient. I'd suggest taking the whole regimen - I can get pretty 'snarky' if I'm low B.

[MrHappy]

I would also consider limiting your caffeine intake - Hebbeh has found reduced tolerance to caffeine, particularly on larger doses. I don't drink it at all, anymore. I'd be surprised if you still need coffee, as your sleep debt effects should already be handled by the UMP.

Edited by MrHappy, 10 December 2011 - 09:29 PM.

[tintinet]

Perhaps that's the issue. Coffee is a long time habit (or addiction), but I'll start tapering.

[choqueiro]

Hi.

I´ve been reading all these days about anxiety/depression and the different substances to avoid them. Nothing conclusive but maybe Sam-e and 5-htp could not be the best options.

Even though I´ve got both anxiety and depression disorders I think that anxiety is the worst of the two, and taking any susbtance that could increase my already high anxiety levels is not recommended.

I read the "gpc, uridine, dha" thread MrHappy. Right now I´m taking an omega 3 supplement that contains only EPA (it is suggested that EPA and not DHA is good for depression). I´m not sure (effects are not amazing) but I could affirm that I feel better when I take EPA supplements instead DHA+EPA supplements (I´ve been taking one and other one several months). With regard to Alpha GPC, I must say that the first nootropic stack that I take in my life (after reading longecity forums) was: piracetam, alcar and Alpha GPC. I experiment with these three supplements. I take them alone and togeteher and I tried differents quantities with bad effects (or at least no effects). In general my experience with these three compounds was: more anxiety and headaches and no memory improvement.

Connor, it´s a apleasure to read your opinion. I didn´t know that folic acid may cause cancer!! I´ll take an eye!!. I know that B vitamins are really important in this issues. I also have memory problems and brain fog (maybe caused by anxiety and depression), so b vitamins are a must. In my last order I bought also a B complex (Jarrow). I only take one pill one day to try the product. One hour later I´ve got red spots in my skin (specially in hands, arms, and neck). My face get also red and I experimented an increase in my general temperature (I was really warm). I think that I´m allergic to one compound. I´m really afraid to try the product another time.

Sam-e seems to be a good compound but maybe is not for me. The side effects include an increase in anxiety. I read experiences from users that confirm this. Manic episodes are also reported. I´m a really anxious person and Sam-e seems to be a good compound for those that have depression but not high anxiety levels. Quick tolerance is a problem and there aren´t brands with less than 200 mg. capsules.

Looking for information I see that St. John´s Wort could be an option. Firstly I don´t pay so much attention to this compound. I investigate a little bit more and I find that there are two tipes of St. John´s that are scientifically proven and from reputable brands: Kira from Abkit and Perika from Nature´s Way ( athird option could be SC27 from New Chapter).

It is said that the differences between Kira and Perika is that the first one is less energetic (more anxiolitic) and the second one is more "activating". People with high anxiety levels suggested to use the first one.

Some questions about Kira:

- Should this be a good compound for a person with anxiety/depresion??
- Quick tolerance??
- I must be aware to photosensibilty or any other side effect??
- Safety of the long term use?? If I decide to stop the consumption after a long period I will suffer withdrawal symptoms??
- Do you think that this compound will help with my brain fog??

I don´t know if St. John´s could be a help to my problems. I also see that people suggested other herbs, for example: Rhodiola (must be cycled) + Holy Basil, but I think that Kira will help in both anxiety and depression problems and maybe coulde help with my brain fog.

Any opinion would be appreciated

[MrHappy]

The cholinergics - a-gpc and alcar are antidopaminergic.
Uridine rebalances dopamine receptors and ultimately seratonin levels, including the above effect, so it's not an issue.

<shrug>
Not enough folic acid also causes cancer, so balance in all things.

[summer stars]

It's actually not true that there are no brands with less than 200mg. I found three and I tried to post them on this thread awhile back, but my post never came through.

Here are the three I found which have 100mg SAM-E:

Now Foods
ViriLife (you can find their stuff on Amazon)
Vitality Systems (their SAM-e is actually for pets, but I see nothing in the 100mg version that a human couldn't ingest.)

[Triton1]

In my last order I bought also a B complex (Jarrow). I only take one pill one day to try the product. One hour later I´ve got red spots in my skin (specially in hands, arms, and neck). My face get also red and I experimented an increase in my general temperature (I was really warm). I think that I´m allergic to one compound. I´m really afraid to try the product another time.

Not an allergy. Your reaction is the typical 'niacin flush', which many people experience when taking large doses of niacin and is harmless.

[nupi]

- Should this be a good compound for a person with anxiety/depresion??
- Quick tolerance??
- I must be aware to photosensibilty or any other side effect??
- Safety of the long term use?? If I decide to stop the consumption after a long period I will suffer withdrawal symptoms??
- Do you think that this compound will help with my brain fog??

I don´t know if St. John´s could be a help to my problems. I also see that people suggested other herbs, for example: Rhodiola (must be cycled) + Holy Basil, but I think that Kira will help in both anxiety and depression problems and maybe coulde help with my brain fog.

Any opinion would be appreciated

SJW never worked for me, but Bacopa definitely does help with mood and anxiety, at the price of being slightly sedating at times...

As soon as my cold is over I will give my new SAM-e box a try :P

Edited by nupi, 17 December 2011 - 12:46 PM.

[choqueiro]

Thanks Triton1. I didn´t know anything about "niacin flush". I´m really surprised. It was the first time in my hall life that I took a B supplement and I suffered a "niacin flush". Is this normal?? It is normal to have "naturally" high niacin levels if you never took a B complex??

Anyone have any good opinion about SJW (specially about Kira)?? It would be a good choice for me??

Thanks

[tintinet]

I've tried Kira and Perika. I think Perika works better for me. You might try taking 900 mg in the AM, all at once. It may be a few weeks til you feel any effect.

[nupi]

So far, I am not at all impressed with SAM-e
First day: 200mg SAM-e, 150mg Wellbutrin XR, Ashwaghanda in the morning, if any effect, maybe a slight energy boost; at night I added bacopa and red wine, made me euphoric
Second day: decided to skip the Wellbutrin and see what 400mg SAM-e early in the morning will do. 90minutes later I have a slight head-ache and feel dizzy, experiencing some light brain fog, too.

This is probably not for me.

[choqueiro]

I think that I´m going to try Kira. I´m not sure if this substance it´s going to be the "clue".

I know that it´s not the thread but I want to share with you my actual problems and my experiences with nootropics, trying to find a solution or at least to get better. Since a few years ago, I suffer from anxiety and depression as I said before and I also have memory problems with a lot of days with a general sensation of brain fog. Particularly I don´t speak with fluency or at least I don´t do it as well as I did when I was really fine. I´m a lawyer and since I have use of reason I had an excellent hability using words and speaking. Right now I have difficulties with names, words and I seem to be "cloudy" most of the days.

I´ve been loking other threads. One talks about "difficulty with words" (see:http://www.longecity...words-speaking/). Quantum Tuibule said: "Dont add alpha GPC for now, its cholinergenic which can decrease processing ability while usually increasing longer term memory". Are cholinergic substances the clue??

I also read another thread: "Best anticholinergic for cognitive enhancement/mood elevation?" (see: http://www.longecity...mood-elevation/). tjcbs said that: "All pro-acetylcholine nootropics (racetams, cholines, cholinesterase inhibitors) make me feel like crap, like I'm a brain-dead zombie". That´s my sensation most of the days (even though acetylcholine does not have to be the cause).

The first time I took nootropics I bought a simple stack: Piracetam + Alcar + Alpha GPC. I tried different quantities and I tried them alone and mixed. My experiments with the substances only lasted two weeks. I avoid Alcar quickly (it increases my anxiety). I tried Piracetam alone and with Alpha GPC. The only effects were littles headaches and brain fog. Last day I took a mega dose of Alpha GPC (some people suggested that headaches are a common side effect if you take Piracetam withouth the necessary quantity of choline). I took 2500 mg of Alpha GPC and approximately half quantity of Piracetam. Nothing. Little headache and brain fog another time.

As I said in this thread, right now I´m taking Bacopa and Ginkgo. Bacopa is a little bit sedative and even though I feel the effect it´s not enough to control my anxiety and depression. Brain fog and headaches are very common in my life. I´m a newbie in nootropics and supplements. I spent a lot of time reading longecity forums but it´s difficult to find the "clue".

Any opinion would be appreciated.

P.S. Have taken once a mega-dose of 2500 mg. of Alpha GPC might caused any harm?? No side effects that day.


Thanks

[MrHappy]

I think that without DHA and uridine, you're effectively robbing your lipid membranes to get that effect.
http://www.smart-pub...nst-Alzheimers/

Discussed more here:
http://www.longecity...ne-uridine-dha/
http://www.longecity...r-dha-vitamins/

[snuffie]

So far, I am not at all impressed with SAM-e
First day: 200mg SAM-e, 150mg Wellbutrin XR, Ashwaghanda in the morning, if any effect, maybe a slight energy boost; at night I added bacopa and red wine, made me euphoric
Second day: decided to skip the Wellbutrin and see what 400mg SAM-e early in the morning will do. 90minutes later I have a slight head-ache and feel dizzy, experiencing some light brain fog, too.

This is probably not for me.

wellbutrin is not something you should "skip"...i'm not surprised that you felt crappy. if i forget to take mine i feel the same - headache, brain fog. skipping the wellbutrin to see how you feel with only SAMe doesn't tell you anything about SAMe, it just tells you how crappy you feel without your daily wellbutrin dose.

[snuffie]

It's actually not true that there are no brands with less than 200mg. I found three and I tried to post them on this thread awhile back, but my post never came through.

Here are the three I found which have 100mg SAM-E:

Now Foods
ViriLife (you can find their stuff on Amazon)
Vitality Systems (their SAM-e is actually for pets, but I see nothing in the 100mg version that a human couldn't ingest.)

Ha! That's awesome, I never would have thought to look in pet meds. Found one that's 50mg SAMe: http://www.entirelyp...m/same50mg.html without the other stuff in it. I'm going to try to get ahold of some but shipping cost to here is obscene (almost 3x the cost of the product! BAH.)

[smithx]

By the way, you should probably avoid folic acid (a synthetic folate which is widely used in multivitamins) as there are a couple studies which indicate an association with increased rates of some forms of cancer, e.g. lung cancer. Folinic acid (calcium folinate) the preferred form; it is available from www.iherb.com.

Not to change the subject, but do you have any references for this? I did a quick search and only came up with studies where folic acid reduced the incidence of cancers.

[nupi]

wellbutrin is not something you should "skip"...i'm not surprised that you felt crappy. if i forget to take mine i feel the same - headache, brain fog. skipping the wellbutrin to see how you feel with only SAMe doesn't tell you anything about SAMe, it just tells you how crappy you feel without your daily wellbutrin dose.

I regularly skip it (in fact, at the moment, I take 150mg SR every other day) with zero brain fog or crappy feeling (that may start after 2 or more days of skipping but so far I have not gone down that road - maybe I should, my stack has plenty of mood support that has less annoying side effects than the Wellbutrin). The MD who proscribed it even said that I could easily do that to reduce the dose. (I am not sure the Wellbutrin does much of anything these days, anyway)

[snuffie]

wellbutrin is not something you should "skip"...i'm not surprised that you felt crappy. if i forget to take mine i feel the same - headache, brain fog. skipping the wellbutrin to see how you feel with only SAMe doesn't tell you anything about SAMe, it just tells you how crappy you feel without your daily wellbutrin dose.

I regularly skip it (in fact, at the moment, I take 150mg SR every other day) with zero brain fog or crappy feeling (that may start after 2 or more days of skipping but so far I have not gone down that road - maybe I should, my stack has plenty of mood support that has less annoying side effects than the Wellbutrin). The MD who proscribed it even said that I could easily do that to reduce the dose. (I am not sure the Wellbutrin does much of anything these days, anyway)

taking something every other day =/= skipping; if you're used to taking it every other day, you've got a consistent routine with it, your brain is used to that dosing schedule. that's why you'll likely start feeling crappy once you're into day 2 without it.

& yup every other day is a normal way to get a lower dose or taper when you're at the lowest dose available or with pills you can't cut such as this one. I tapered off celexa that way, cutting little 5mg pills in half to take 2.5mg/day, then taking the 2.5mg every other day, then a couple of times a week (the withdrawal from that one was a bitch).

i too wonder sometimes if the wellbutrin is doing much of anything...but it's hard to remember how crappy things were before i started it. i think it's a good idea to chart your moods if you're trying to go off the wellbutrin and/or take supplements for mood. i find that mood changes sneak up on me and often i don't realize that things are getting bad until i'm already down in the hole again. "optimism" software is a good option for tracking.

[nupi]

Been not taking it for a week now - outside being even less motivated to do anythign than before (and more tired) I do not feel too much difference, the rest of the stack seems to do something on its own. Still, the fatigue cannot stay like it is so I will see a shrink next week (GP offered to switch me to an SSRI which I want to avoid and then said if I want something more exotic I should go see a specialist)...

Edited by nupi, 15 January 2012 - 08:30 AM.