13 replies to this topic

[TheKidInside]

So, I am working on putting together a supplement with a group of classmates. This isn't meant to be a way to get rich or anything but simply to mess around with some natural dietary supplements that we feel a lot of people are missing in their lives. With winter coming and a lot of folks "suffering" from SAD we thought it might be nice to give it at try:

so, thus far we have the following ingridients

1. Omega-3s (we were going to try to keep it vegetarian but it seems like fish oils > algae so fish oil it is)

EPA to DHA ratio of about 60-40 (some research we bumped into says that's the ratio you must go with, I however took Nordic Naturals Ultimate DHA before that has much lower EPA content and mostly DHA and it actually worked pretty well during some stressful midterms weeks)

we were thinking about 1,000-1,200 mg total of Omega-3s so about 600+:400+ EPA to DHA ratio

2. vitamin d (d3) specifically in the amounts of around 1,000 iu

3. SAM-e S-adenoslymethionine is another compound a classmate of mine recommended and we were looking into about 400 mg

4. St, John's wort - now my research and understanding here is limited but from a few articles I was sent by the same buddy that recommended SAM-e it seems like it has worked in big enough test group to have some sort of positive benefits. 300 mg 3 x daily so we figured perhaps add the recommended daily dosage in a single dose of 900 mg


and finally acetyl-l-carnitine has also been recommended to us by our physiology and nutrition professor as something to look into

so that's about 4-6 ingredients including a complex of B vitamins


just wanted to get all the wonderful peoples' input on this amazing forum!

looking forward to it!

peace and love :-)

[tintinet]

Looks like a decent combination. Most studies, IIRC, find at least 1 gram EPA an effective dose for mood elevation.

Vitamin D doses are highly controversial, ISTM, and 1,000 i.u. seems like the low end of recent recommendations.

SAMe did noting beneficial for me personally, AFAICT.

St. John's Wort: more controversy regarding effective dose, active compounds (hypericium vs. hyperforin, etc..) Also seems to be minimally, if at all, effective for me, at least in doses of up to 900 mg 3% hypericum or hypericum/day.

The scientific backing for all of these is relatively weak, at best, I think. Everyone's personal MMV, of course. I've taken a lot of different supplements in hopes of elevating my overall mood, but find, again and again, the best mood elevators for me are exercise, sunlight, fresh air, good food, and pleasant experiences, especially social/interpersonal ones.

[TheKidInside]

I totally concur on the lifestyle changes. however, I find it easier to change peoples' religion than their diet alone...much less exercise and enjoying outdoors :-P

kudos!

also remember a lot of times your mood is all ready at the optimal level but you're either going through a lot of "stress" or overall looking to for an even bigger increase in serotonin or dopamine levels.

I don't want to get into the science behind the stuff I mentioned because even though I am a medical student I don't believe science is able to test much of what's happening but fish oil is used in Iceland during the months of darkness as a mood stabilizer by virtually the ENTIRE population (since they don't really do antidepressants. as is the same case in Eastern Europe where I come from. Vitamin D is the same exact thing and the vast majority of fish or cod liver oil specifically will have a ton of Vitamin D in it as well.

Edited by TheKidInside, 12 December 2011 - 12:26 PM.

[TheFountain]

If you take saint johns wort make sure it's the kind shown effective in the german clinical trial. Kira, or perika.

[TheKidInside]

Thank you so much for that insight!!! Whatever you guys can share is greatly appreciated!

[MrHappy]

<broken record alert>
Uridine-5'-monophosphate + choline (or a cholinergic like ALCAR) is more helpful approach than CDP-choline itself... It's a precursor to CDP-choline, so you end up producing CDP-choline anyway, with all the added advantages that uridine brings. It works synergistically with most of the stack you are proposing.

Uridine will modulate / normalise dopamine release (both directions) and has significant mood enhancement and antidepressive effects.
http://docs.docstoc....a223d245da5.pdf
http://ebm.rsmjourna...4/1/49.abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/20504471/
http://www.psycholog...3/better-prozac

Dopamine interacts heavily with seratonin - by modulating dopamine, you will also influence seratonin levels.

Because it modulates the release rather than inhibiting or promoting, it doesn't have any tolerance issues if you stop taking it.
Increased caffeine intolerance has been reported, however.

Discussed in a lot more detail here:
http://www.longecity...ne-uridine-dha/
</broken record alert>

[TheKidInside]

thanks brother! I was looking into thyrosine for dopamine promotion (along with vitamin B6) but looks this is definitely a much better way to go especially if it's synergy issues with the rest of the proposed ingredients.

[ramon25]

Id Say for SAD its Vitamin D for sure. Also 1000 Iu probably isnt enough, 2000 Iu would be better, possibly mixed with vitamin K2 inorder to guard against too much D, although 2000Iu is usually not anywhere close to causing toxicity. Magnesium seems to prevent SAD in some. Tyrosine would also be good. I see no reason for omega 3;s personally. Not if its specifically for winter.

Edited by ramon25, 21 December 2011 - 03:53 AM.

[MrHappy]

Omega-3 has antidepressive effects, helps promote BDNF and repairs lipid membranes.

[nito]

<broken record alert>
Uridine-5'-monophosphate + choline (or a cholinergic like ALCAR) is more helpful approach than CDP-choline itself... It's a precursor to CDP-choline, so you end up producing CDP-choline anyway, with all the added advantages that uridine brings. It works synergistically with most of the stack you are proposing.

Uridine will modulate / normalise dopamine release (both directions) and has significant mood enhancement and antidepressive effects.
http://docs.docstoc....a223d245da5.pdf
http://ebm.rsmjourna...4/1/49.abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm....ubmed/20504471/
http://www.psycholog...3/better-prozac

Dopamine interacts heavily with seratonin - by modulating dopamine, you will also influence seratonin levels.

Because it modulates the release rather than inhibiting or promoting, it doesn't have any tolerance issues if you stop taking it.
Increased caffeine intolerance has been reported, however.

Discussed in a lot more detail here:
http://www.longecity...ne-uridine-dha/
</broken record alert>

So you would recommend alcar instead of cdp to be taken with uridine, or cdp is fine ?

[earcaraxe]

I think this is a pretty good combination, especially for dealing with the winter. I don't know very much about omega 3s. I remember my parents trying to get me to take them, but I felt like all of the supplements were fairly odious.

Vitamin D is important to help deal with the season change in the amount of sunlight we get, as we stay inside longer in the winter, etc. I would also suggest getting daylight bulbs for your lights indoors. That tungsten light doesn't send the same signals to your brain as the daylight bulbs do, so I highly recommend setting those up in your home/office.

SAM-e worked well as a mood enhancer for me personally. It's very subtle, but was noticable.

B-vitamins are always good. I was taking SAM-e and Pyritinol (a modified B-vitamin) as a mood enhancing combination and it seemed to be working pretty well.

Let us know how it works out!

[TheKidInside]

lots of information to go over. thanks guys, whatever else you wanna post feel free to do so!

ramon, you mentinoed Tyrosine, from what I heard it must be taken along side 5-HTP as well since there's an inverse reaction when you only increase seratonin or dopamine. I heard Dr. Dan Kalish talking about it on a podcast recently.

[ramon25]

Well it does depend. Serotonin tends to rise in the winter and dopamine gets lower, so its not always the case. Also More omega's 3's are not always good.

[TheKidInside]

ramon, could you clarify further...