32 replies to this topic

[GhostBuster]

I bumped into this article that claims that sodium bicarbonate can improve physical performance.

http://mikestriathlo...ve-performance/

Baking soda apparently increases the amount of mRNA PGC!Alpha (by five fold) which is a protein that regulates the number of mitochondria we have. This could mean that one can get more mitochondria just by taking baking soda. Surprising and pretty impressive.

Edited by GhostBuster, 12 December 2011 - 05:35 PM.

[AgeVivo]

more energy available -> more mitochondria?

good? bad?
recently sodas were empirically associated with increased cardiovascular risk, not sure there is a link

[8bitmore]

I think this is really interesting data, after a brief pubmed sprint I came up with the following: http://www.springerl...136547l50r702p/

The aim of the present study was to examine the effect of sodium bicarbonate ingestion on consecutive “all out” sprint tests, analyzing the acid–base status and its influence on performance and perceived effort. Ten elite bicycle motocross (BMX) riders (20.7 ± 1.4 years, training experience 8–12 years) participated in this study which consisted of two trials. Each trial consisted of three consecutive Wingate tests (WTs) separated by 15 min recovery. Ninety minutes prior to exercise subjects ingested either NaHCO₃ ⁻ (0.3 g kg⁻¹ body weight) or placebo. Blood samples were collected for the assessment of blood acid–base status: bicarbonate concentration ([HCO₃ ⁻]), pH, base excess (BE) and blood lactate concentration ([La⁻]). Performance variables of peak power (PP), mean power (MP), time to peak power and fatigue index were calculated for each sprint. Significant differences (p < 0.05) were observed in acid–base variables [pH before WT1: 7.47 ± 0.05 vs. 7.41 ± 0.03; [HCO₃ ⁻] before WT1: 29.08 ± 2.27 vs. 22.85 ± 0.24 mmol L⁻¹ (bicarbonate vs. placebo conditions, respectively)], but there were not significant differences in performance variables between trials [PP WT1: 1,610 ± 373 vs. 1,599 ± 370 W; PP WT2: 1,548 ± 460 vs. 1,570 ± 428 W; PP WT3: 1,463 ± 361 vs. 1,519 ± 364 W. MP WT1: 809 ± 113 vs. 812 ± 108 W; MP WT2: 799 ± 135 vs. 799 ± 124 W; MP WT3: 762 ± 165 vs. 782 ± 118 W (bicarbonate vs. placebo conditions, respectively)]. Rating of perceived effort (RPE) was not influenced nor ratings of perceived readiness. Sodium bicarbonate ingestion modified significantly the blood acid–base balance, although the induced alkalosis did not improve the Wingate test performance, RPE and perceived readiness across three consecutive WTs in elite BMX cyclists.

Not that impressive but the studies quoted in the link you found (http://mikestriathlo...ve-performance/) seems to indicate effect so I reckon its worth (meta-) researching this a bit more. Not least because Sodium Bicarbonate is so cheaply and readily available (though I would personally refrain from taking 21 grams of it in one go!).

[8bitmore]

Update, one more study, this time positive - http://www.hubmed.or...i?uids=21923200

Also, @AgeVivo "recently sodas were empirically associated with increased cardiovascular risk" --> as in Coca Cola or..? Soda's are superbly acidic so that's the extreme opposite of Sodium Bicarbonate really (sorry if I'm just reading you wrong).

Ingestion of agents that modify blood buffering action may affect high-intensity performance. Here we present a meta-analysis of the effects of acute ingestion of three such agents - sodium bicarbonate, sodium citrate and ammonium chloride - on performance and related physiological variables (blood bicarbonate, pH and lactate). A literature search yielded 59 useable studies with 188 observations of performance effects. To perform the mixed-model meta-analysis, all performance effects were converted into a percentage change in mean power and were weighted using standard errors derived from exact p-values, confidence limits (CLs) or estimated errors of measurement. The fixed effects in the meta-analytic model included the number of performance-test bouts (linear), test duration (log linear), blinding (yes/no), competitive status (athlete/nonathlete) and sex (male/female). Dose expressed as buffering mmoL/kg/body mass (BM) was included as a strictly proportional linear effect interacted with all effects except blinding. Probabilistic inferences were derived with reference to thresholds for small and moderate effects on performance of 0.5% and 1.5%, respectively. Publication bias was reduced by excluding study estimates with a standard error >2.7%. The remaining 38 studies and 137 estimates for sodium bicarbonate produced a possibly moderate performance enhancement of 1.7% (90% CL ± 2.0%) with a typical dose of 3.5 mmoL/kg/BM (∼0.3 g/kg/BM) in a single 1-minute sprint, following blinded consumption by male athletes. In the 16 studies and 45 estimates for sodium citrate, a typical dose of 1.5 mmoL/kg/BM (∼0.5 g/kg/BM) had an unclear effect on performance of 0.0% (±1.3%), while the five studies and six estimates for ammonium chloride produced a possibly moderate impairment of 1.6% (±1.9%) with a typical dose of 5.5 mmoL/kg/BM (∼0.3 g/kg/BM). Study and subject characteristics had the following modifying small effects on the enhancement of performance with sodium bicarbonate: an increase of 0.5% (±0.6%) with a 1 mmoL/kg/BM increase in dose; an increase of 0.6% (±0.4%) with five extra sprint bouts; a reduction of 0.6% (±0.9%) for each 10-fold increase in test duration (e.g. 1-10 minutes); reductions of 1.1% (±1.1%) with nonathletes and 0.7% (±1.4%) with females. Unexplained variation in effects between research settings was typically ±1.2%. The only noteworthy effects involving physiological variables were a small correlation between performance and pre-exercise increase in blood bicarbonate with sodium bicarbonate ingestion, and a very large correlation between the increase in blood bicarbonate and time between sodium citrate ingestion and exercise. The approximate equal and opposite effects of sodium bicarbonate and ammonium chloride are consistent with direct performance effects of pH, but sodium citrate appears to have some additional metabolic inhibitory effect. Important future research includes studies of sodium citrate ingestion several hours before exercise and quantification of gastrointestinal symptoms with sodium bicarbonate and citrate. Although individual responses may vary, we recommend ingestion of 0.3-0.5 g/kg/BM sodium bicarbonate to improve mean power by 1.7% (±2.0%) in high-intensity races of short duration.

Edited by 8bitmore, 12 December 2011 - 09:39 PM.

[GhostBuster]

I think this is really interesting data, after a brief pubmed sprint I came up with the following: http://www.springerl...136547l50r702p/

The aim of the present study was to examine the effect of sodium bicarbonate ingestion on consecutive “all out” sprint tests, analyzing the acid–base status and its influence on performance and perceived effort. Ten elite bicycle motocross (BMX) riders (20.7 ± 1.4 years, training experience 8–12 years) participated in this study which consisted of two trials. Each trial consisted of three consecutive Wingate tests (WTs) separated by 15 min recovery. Ninety minutes prior to exercise subjects ingested either NaHCO₃ ⁻ (0.3 g kg⁻¹ body weight) or placebo. Blood samples were collected for the assessment of blood acid–base status: bicarbonate concentration ([HCO₃ ⁻]), pH, base excess (BE) and blood lactate concentration ([La⁻]). Performance variables of peak power (PP), mean power (MP), time to peak power and fatigue index were calculated for each sprint. Significant differences (p < 0.05) were observed in acid–base variables [pH before WT1: 7.47 ± 0.05 vs. 7.41 ± 0.03; [HCO₃ ⁻] before WT1: 29.08 ± 2.27 vs. 22.85 ± 0.24 mmol L⁻¹ (bicarbonate vs. placebo conditions, respectively)], but there were not significant differences in performance variables between trials [PP WT1: 1,610 ± 373 vs. 1,599 ± 370 W; PP WT2: 1,548 ± 460 vs. 1,570 ± 428 W; PP WT3: 1,463 ± 361 vs. 1,519 ± 364 W. MP WT1: 809 ± 113 vs. 812 ± 108 W; MP WT2: 799 ± 135 vs. 799 ± 124 W; MP WT3: 762 ± 165 vs. 782 ± 118 W (bicarbonate vs. placebo conditions, respectively)]. Rating of perceived effort (RPE) was not influenced nor ratings of perceived readiness. Sodium bicarbonate ingestion modified significantly the blood acid–base balance, although the induced alkalosis did not improve the Wingate test performance, RPE and perceived readiness across three consecutive WTs in elite BMX cyclists.

Not that impressive but the studies quoted in the link you found (http://mikestriathlo...ve-performance/) seems to indicate effect so I reckon its worth (meta-) researching this a bit more. Not least because Sodium Bicarbonate is so cheaply and readily available (though I would personally refrain from taking 21 grams of it in one go!).

If the effected is related to bicarbonate as it seems to be, then it might be possible to replace sodium bicarbonate at least partly with potassium bicarbonate. In my case this would be a double benefit as I have difficulties getting RDA of potassium in my diet.

[david ellis]

If the effected is related to bicarbonate as it seems to be, then it might be possible to replace sodium bicarbonate at least partly with potassium bicarbonate. In my case this would be a double benefit as I have difficulties getting RDA of potassium in my diet.

Be careful, potassium has effects on the heart, you could die. Two grams, let alone the 20 Plus needed, makes me very nauseous as the first symptom. There is a reason why potassium pills are only 99 mg.

[Mind]

They are analyzing this in regards to endurance athletes/training, but what about potential affects on lifespan or healthspan. Would increased numbers of mitochondria lead to life extension? Seems to me that I read a few studies about more healthy and functioning mitos can lead to life extension (I am sure it was an animal model, might have even been worms).

[niner]

The data seem to indicate that if you screw with your blood buffers enough, you can have a small effect on performance, and alkalizing seems to be better than acidifying. As far as mitochondria go, that was based on a single unpublished in vitro experiment. That's only femtoscopically better than meaningless, in terms of evidence that you'll get more mitochondria in a human. At the doses they're using to get a performance effect, I wouldn't exactly give it the Longecity Seal of Approval in terms of safety and likelihood of actually improving health, or (perish the thought) longevity.

[8bitmore]

Seems to me that I read a few studies about more healthy and functioning mitos can lead to life extension (I am sure it was an animal model, might have even been worms).

Can you remember anything more about these studies (of course URLs would be nice but I'm willing to do a bit of keyword trawling too)?

My brief stint with http://www.hubmed.or...ealth&sort=date seems to point at consistent effect of SBC with regards to blood alkalising effects but wobbly performance enhancement (could easily be that 2% enhancement IS really achieved, yet it is such a small margin that not all studies manage to demonstrate it). I personally don't really care about the latter though.. so... I digress: hope Mind can remember bit more about health/mito studies!

[rwac]

Apparently feeding a horse Sodium Bicarbonate and Sugar can improve performance. This is called 'milkshaking' and is banned in racing. Having a high CO2 is considered a positive for a horse.

http://community.tvg...101/td-p/895303

Here's some studies in humans too.
Effects of sodium bicarbonate ingestion on anaerobic performance: a meta-analytic review.


Effect of ingested sodium bicarbonate on muscle force, fatigue, and recovery

Effect of ingested sodium bicarbonate on muscle force, fatigue, and recovery. J. Appl. Physiol. 83(2): 333–337, 1997.—The influence of acute ingestion of NaHCO₃ on fatigue and recovery of the quadriceps femoris muscle after exercise was studied in six healthy male subjects. A bicycle ergometer was used for exercising under three loading conditions: test A, load corresponding to maximal oxygen consumption; test B, load in test A + 17%; test C, load intest B but performed 1 h after acute ingestion of NaHCO₃. Functional electrical stimulation (FES) was applied to provoke isometric contraction of the quadriceps femoris. The resulting knee torque was monitored during fatigue (2-min chronic FES) and recovery (10-s FES every 10 min, for 40 min). Quadriceps torques were higher in the presence of NaHCO₃(P < 0.05): with NaHCO₃ the peak, residual, and recovery (after 40 min) normalized torques were, respectively, 0.68 ± 0.05 (SD), 0.58 ± 0.05, and 0.73 ± 0.05; without NaHCO₃ the values were 0.45 ± 0.04, 0.30 ± 0.06, and 0.63 ± 0.06. The increased torques obtained after acute ingestion of NaHCO3 indicate the possible existence of improved nonoxidative glycolysis in isometric contraction, resulting in reduced fatigue and enhanced recovery.

Effects of sodium bicarbonate on VO2 kinetics during heavy exercise

Abstract

PURPOSE:

Sodium bicarbonate was used to investigate the effect of blood pH on VO2 kinetics during heavy exercise.
METHODS:

On separate days, 10 active subjects performed two 6-min cycling bouts (208 +/- 12 W) at 25 W above their ventilatory threshold. Each subject ingested 0.3 g x kg(-1) of sodium bicarbonate with approximately 1 L of water or water alone 1 h before exercise. VO2 kinetics were examined by means of a three-component mono-exponential model.
RESULTS:

Bicarbonate ingestion caused a significant increase in the preexercise blood pH (7.512 +/- 0.009 vs 7.425 +/- 0.007; P < 0.001). In the bicarbonate trial, the time constant for the rapid component (27.9 +/- 3.5 s) was slower than the control trial (20.8 +/- 2.4 s; P = 0.017). The higher blood pH after bicarbonate ingestion would have diminished local blood flow and caused a leftward shift of the oxygen-hemoglobin dissociation curve both of which would slow oxygen delivery to working muscle. In addition, bicarbonate ingestion diminished the amplitude of the slow component 29% (463 +/- 43 vs 649 +/- 53 mL x min(-1); P = 0.040). The primary cause of the slow component during heavy exercise is fatigue of working fibers and an accompanying increase of motor unit recruitment. Elevated plasma bicarbonate concentration is reported to stimulate the efflux of H from muscle fibers and to increase intramuscular pH.
CONCLUSIONS:

The slower time constant during the rapid component suggested that oxygen delivery is a limiting factor of VO2 kinetics during the onset of heavy exercise. Also, these results imply that bicarbonate ingestion diminished fatigue in working fibers during the slow component.

via cliff, http://co2factor.blogspot.com/

Edited by rwac, 24 August 2012 - 11:58 PM.

[orion602]

They are analyzing this in regards to endurance athletes/training, but what about potential affects on lifespan or healthspan. Would increased numbers of mitochondria lead to life extension? Seems to me that I read a few studies about more healthy and functioning mitos can lead to life extension (I am sure it was an animal model, might have even been worms).

hmmm.. not sure about life extension but apparently it may be benefitial for teath at least.

It took me quite a while before i found this article about Beatrice Farve (April 30, 1895 – January 19, 2009) in my e-mail supercentenarians archive (i remembered baking soda was mentioned there at least once) There isn't mentioned how she used it but i guess it was likely just for mouthwashing or teeth cleaning rather than ingesting. still interesting:

.......
With only 136 days until her 113th birthday on April 30, Farve is
the ninth oldest person on the planet today.


"It's just so amazing that she has lived this long," said her
daughter, Joan Farve, who lives with her.

Because her mother is deaf and doesn't speak very much these days,
Joan Farve speaks for her to facilitate communication.

"I think it's most amazing that she is 112 and still has all of her
teeth," her daughter said. "Baking soda and peroxide has been her
secret for those healthy teeth."

Being more than 110 years old puts Beatrice Farve in an elite group.
Only 70 individuals worldwide are eligible to wear the title
Supercentenarian.

..........

[jans]

This might relate:

"When stem cells were extracted from a mouse embryo and put in a petri dish, they stopped aging but remained healthy and growing, as if frozen in time. Somewhere in the cell, it seemed, was a clock that determined its life span.... He developed an interest in cloning, a process in which the cellular clock is not only stopped but reset. Why, he wondered, do cloned animals have normal life spans?

The answer to the riddle of cellular aging was not to be found in the cell’s nucleus, Dr. Mitalipov concluded, but in the surrounding cytoplasm. In the mitochondria."

http://www.nytimes.c...ef=science&_r=0

[Guardian4981]

I wonder if something like wheatgrass would have a similar benefit.

[RJ23_1989]

The data seem to indicate that if you screw with your blood buffers enough, you can have a small effect on performance, and alkalizing seems to be better than acidifying. As far as mitochondria go, that was based on a single unpublished in vitro experiment. That's only femtoscopically better than meaningless, in terms of evidence that you'll get more mitochondria in a human. At the doses they're using to get a performance effect, I wouldn't exactly give it the Longecity Seal of Approval in terms of safety and likelihood of actually improving health, or (perish the thought) longevity.

Niner is correct. I've actually used this in competition before yes it does work. It alters the pH balance and serves to buffer lactic acid (or whatever theory you subscribe to) build up and greatly delays the onset of muscle fatigue.

The problem with it is it contains a huge amount of sodium and it is also absolutely the most vile tasting substance I've ever tasted. If I remember correctly, an effective dose is around 15 - 20 grams.

You have to hold your nose when drinking it. Afterwards, you'll probably gag for a few seconds on the aftertaste. Then your stomach churns a bit for about 15min then you usually hit the starting line feeling ill / a bit sick to your stomach.

However, putting all this discomfort aside you can pretty significantly extend your all out effort way past the point you'd normally hit the wall.

As much as I'm willing to try anything to improve physical performance, this is one thing I have no plans to ever take again. Just the thought of drinking that stuff makes me shudder



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[PWAIN]

Just eat lots of sherbet....

[Adam Karlovsky]

Just so you know, yes, 21g of potassium bicarbonate *is* a dangerous amount of potassium to consume in one go. Such high doses are only relevant to those seeking performance enhancement, and potassium will likely, actually, reduce muscle contraction and reduce performance, so they use sodium for both safety and efficacy. Sometimes they will use a mix of sodium and potassium to reduce the total acute intake of any one salt.

 

Having said that, I see no reason why we need to take 21g of any bicarbonate for life-extending purposes. I imagine that if anything, having a paced low-level intake of potassium bicarbonate throughout the day would be superior to taking 21g of a safe mix bicarbonate in one go. 

 

Yes it tastes like crap at high doses, but if you dilute it then there's no problem. Put 1100mg of potassium bicarb in 1L of water and it will taste a little different to regular water, but it's not bad. We should be drinking lots of water throughout the day anyway, 2L of this water a day will add 858mg potassium to your diet (which is not a dangerous amount).

One thing to think about is if you exercise first thing in the mornings, the exercise-related endorphin release is due to the acidity via lactic acid buildup, and carbonate will counteract it. At such low doses it is likely not a concern, and if it is, then just use the reserve to push yourself a little harder until you get that lactic acid accumulation back. I like my endorphins, I want to live happy, and not just a long life.

[RWhigham]

 

 

Be careful, potassium has effects on the heart, you could die. Two grams, let alone the 20 Plus needed, makes me very nauseous as the first symptom. There is a reason why potassium pills are only 99 mg. 

 

The 99 mg limit on potassium in supplements is to prevent people with poor renal function from fatally damaging their hearts with high K levels in the blood. Before taking extra potassium, one should make sure their kidneys are functioning properly.

 

According to the World Health Organization, potassium intake will not harm your kidneys: " these studies suggested that increased potassium intake had no effect on renal function." http://www.who.int/n...rintversion.pdf

 

According to the US Dept of Agriculture: "the Institute of Medicine (IOM) recommendation for Adequate Intake of potassium is 4700 mg per day". But, "The average potassium intake of the U.S. population 2 years and older was 2640 mg per day and intake of the U.S. population has remained relatively unchanged since the mid-1990s."

http://https://www.a...intake_0910.pdf

 

This is a shortfall of 4700 - 2640 = 2060 g per day. One medium banana has about 400 mg. You would need 5 medium bananas per day to cover the shortfall.

 

I add 1 tsp of K-citrate to my 1.5L water jug (providing apprximately 2.5 g K and 4 g citrate per day).

Edited by RWhigham, 17 November 2016 - 09:13 PM.

[RWhigham]

 

 

This could mean that one can get more mitochondria just by taking baking soda. Surprising and pretty impressive.

 

Cell homeostasis includes the constant destruction and replacement of organelles in a timely manner.

 

Mitochondria appear to be destroyed in an autophagic two step process. The half-life of mitochondria is 3.3 days for the outer membrane and 3.9 days for the inner membrane and matrix. http://www.jbc.org/c...6/8652.full.pdf

 

Is it beneficial to devote more resources to building and destroying mitochondria? 

 

more mitochondria = more fusion?  more fusion = more zombie trash?  (ie fused mitochondria that are too large for autophagy).

 

Under what circumstances are more mitochondria desirable?

 

"As we age, our cells increasingly struggle to recycle their powerhouses. Called mitochondria, these inner compartments are no longer able to carry out their vital function, thus accumulate in the cell."

http://actu.epfl.ch/news/pomegranate-finally-reveals-its-powerful-anti-agin/

Edited by RWhigham, 17 November 2016 - 11:15 PM.

[zorba990]

What about using acetate forms and letting the river do the conversion to bicarbonate?

https://groups.googl...arb/_uq0_cS24SM

"The Magnesium Acetate discovery by Ghg

On 4/20/2015, I (ghg), decided to try oral magnesium acetate. A heaping TSP (10g) in a glass of water in the morning, and again in the evening. The body metabolizes magnesium acetate into the elusive magnesium bicarbonate. This delivers 1.1g magnesium and 5.5g bicarbonate (after the acetate metabolizes into bicarbonate) per TSP of powder. This can even be taken in ½ glass (about 200ml) of water to increase the concentration and absorption. The next morning I awoke to a “fountain of youth” effect. Felt 20-30 years younger, huge boost in energy, etc. My cellular magnesium reserves were already adequate (RBC magnesium 5.3) when trying the acetate. Others did not see the energy boost (they had low magnesium reserves), but saw an energy boost after 4-6 weeks as their reserves were built up. (See next section below.) For some people it is may not possible to achieve the huge energy boost from oral supplementation of mag bicarb water (or mag acetate) and stay under the loose stool limit. We are investigating “timed release” formulation techniques to circumvent this issue."

[RWhigham]

 

 

What about using acetate forms and letting the river do the conversion to bicarbonate?

Mix 3 tbsp Milk of Magnesia and 12 tbsp of white vinegar. After a mild exothermic reaction the cloudy mix will turn into 15 tbsp of clear Mg-acetate solution containing 1.8 g of Mg and 15.7 g of acetate. If its not clear, add a little more vinegar

 

Add to 1.5 L of drinking water and enjoy. 

[RWhigham]

 

The body metabolizes magnesium acetate into the elusive magnesium bicarbonate

 

http://jn.nutrition....137/7/1750.full "Sodium Acetate Induces a Metabolic Alkalosis but Not the Increase in Fatty Acid Oxidation Observed Following Bicarbonate Ingestion in Humans"

"Acetate is quickly converted to acetyl-CoA by the enzyme acetyl-CoA synthetase"

"We determined that 80.1 ± 2.3% of an exogenous source of acetate is oxidized in humans at rest."

 

Fats, carbohydrates, protein all metabolize to acetyl-CoA which feeds the Krebs cycle to make ATP

 

Presumably,

Acetate -> Acetyl-CoA (80%) -> Krebs cycle -> ATP

Acetate -> Acetyl-CoA (20%) -> other metabolic processes.  (Acetyl-CoA has many uses.)

 

Question,

How can acetate "metabolize to bicarbonate"?

 

 

 

 

Edited by RWhigham, 21 November 2016 - 03:02 AM.

[zorba990]

The body metabolizes magnesium acetate into the elusive magnesium bicarbonate

Question,
How can acetate "metabolize to bicarbonate"?

Not sure, but the conversion does seem to be referenced
http://www.sciencedi...317464?via=ihub

"Metabolic consequences of high mass-transfer hemodialysis. The metabolic fate of acetate (Ac) infused during hemodialysis and the acid-base changes attendant to its conversion to bicarbonate were studied in 20 patients. "

[RWhigham]

 

Question,

How can acetate "metabolize to bicarbonate"?

Answer: http://www.webmd.com...s/bicarbonate#1

"The blood carries carbon dioxide to your lungs, where it is exhaled. More than 90% of it in your blood exists in the form of bicarbonate (HCO3)" This buffers your blood pH

 

To naturally increase blood bicarbonate, burn more kcal and produce more CO2. 

 

Edited by RWhigham, 22 November 2016 - 09:22 AM.

[zorba990]

Question,
How can acetate "metabolize to bicarbonate"?

Answer: http://www.webmd.com...s/bicarbonate#1
"The blood carries carbon dioxide to your lungs, where it is exhaled. More than 90% of it in your blood exists in the form of bicarbonate (HCO3)" This buffers your blood pH

To naturally increase blood bicarbonate, burn more kcal and produce more CO2.

Well yes, but what about when the body runs out of immediate blood buffering bicarbonate, and has to make more in the face of increased lactic acid, calcium loss from higher protein requirements of exercise, etc.

http://drsircus.com/...ium-bicarbonate

"Dietary potassium deficiency (as well as magnesium deficiencies) are a major contributor to hypertension as well as many other diseases. Moreover, potassium bicarbonate significantly reduces calcium excretion even in high protein diets. In addition, potassium bicarbonate reduces nitrogen secretion as well as magnesium excretion. The combined benefits of potassium bicarbonate of enhancing calcium, magnesium and protein retention, while enhancing water excretion, are beneficial. There is considerable evidence to suggest that potassium bicarbonate supplementation may well help prevent osteoporosis, reduce blood pressure, reduce weight and even improve adult onset diabetes.[1] The increase in alkalinity also reduces the risk of cancer."

Edited by zorba990, 22 November 2016 - 08:17 PM.

[RWhigham]

 

 

http://drsircus.com/...ium-bicarbonate

"Dietary potassium deficiency (as well as magnesium deficiencies) are a major contributor to hypertension as well as many other diseases. Moreover, potassium bicarbonate significantly reduces calcium excretion even in high protein diets. In addition, potassium bicarbonate reduces nitrogen secretion as well as magnesium excretion. The combined benefits of potassium bicarbonate of enhancing calcium, magnesium and protein retention, while enhancing water excretion, are beneficial. There is considerable evidence to suggest that potassium bicarbonate supplementation may well help prevent osteoporosis, reduce blood pressure, reduce weight and even improve adult onset diabetes.[1] The increase in alkalinity also reduces the risk of cancer." 

 

I'm going here with "an appeal to authority" (considered a logical fallacy, but appropriate, I think, in this case)

http://scienceblogs....art-ii-enter-t/ "The complexity of cancer, part II: Enter the quacks"  by Orac (nom de plume of David H. Gorski, MD, PhD, Fellow American College of Surgeons)

 

Dr Gorski talks about the extensive quackery of the acupuncturist Dr Sircus. 

Dr Gorski's biography:  https://en.wikipedia...ki/David_Gorski - managing editor of "Science-Based Medicine"

 

Caveat:

Science = describing the consistently repeatable behavior of the universe.

Highly educated scientists, including Dr Gorshi, almost always a priori condemn everything that is not consistently repeatable.

 

I have observed from time to time various things that are not consistently repeatable - eg the abilities of the late Dr Richard Ireland (not repeated in anyone else)  http://www.drrichard...nd.com/bio.html

 

Also, I have seen homeopathy (not consistently repeatable) work more than once (for example, the big pink ballons in the corners of my dogs eyes went away with 30c Silica for blocked tear ducts. I once made a homeopathic sun tea for my wife. She loved it, it gave her lots of energy, although her scalp turned bright red. After she ran out she wanted more. I tried to make more, but it didn't work (no idea why).

 

About Homeopathy:

It's easy to see why scientifically literate people call homeopathy quackery.

30c Silica means a 100:1 dilution repeated thirty times for a total dilution of 10^-60 way beyond Avogadro's number (10^23). There is a  vanishingly small possibility of a single molecule of silica being left.  Who wouldn't call that quackery?

 

Properly made homeopathic "remedies" require "succussion" between dilutions, should be made with double distilled water, have to be preserved with alcohol, and have to be kept out of the sun and away from heat, or they are ruined. The whole process is established by law in the "Homœopathic Pharmacopœia of the United States" with different initial procedures for different substances. The initials "HPUS" are supposed to mean it was made accordingly to US law. But, there is no test - anyone can sell fraudulent sugar pills on the internet and call it homeopathy.

 

No one has a clue how homeopathy can possibly work. It's unlikely any scientist working today would dare risk their reputation trying to find out -- two highly qualified French scientists had their careers destroyed by the Amazing Randy and Nature's editor, who was trying to get his ass back, after publishing their experiments about "patterns in water", and raising the hue and cry of quackery amongst Nature's readers.

 

https://en.wikipedia...ques_Benveniste
(French scientist whose carrer was ruined by the editor of Nature and the "Amazing Randy")

Edited by YOLF, 26 November 2016 - 12:58 AM.

[RWhigham]

Back on topic:  How red blood cells make bicarbonate from CO2.

http://chemistry.elm...bondioxide.html  "Oxygen Transport"

 

"Carbon dioxide produced in the tissue cells diffuses into the blood plasma. The largest fraction of carbon dioxide diffuses into the red blood cells. The carbon dioxide in the red blood cells is transported as dissolved CO₂, combined with hemoglobin, or as bicarbonate (largest fraction)."

 

"The formation of bicarbonate ions, (HCO₃^- ) takes place by the following reactions:

Hydration of CO₂: CO₂ + HOH === H₂CO₃
Dissociation of H₂CO₃: H₂CO₃ === H⁺ + HCO₃^{- "}

^"The hydration of carbon dioxide is a slow process but occurs rapidly in the red blood cells because a high concentration of the enzyme carbonic anhydrase catalyzes the reaction".  

 

I shouldn't think erythrocytes would run out of water, and enzymes don't get used up, so red blood cells should  convert Co2 to bicarbonate without "using up" anything. 

 

"Bicarbonate diffuses out of the red blood cells into the plasma in venous blood and visa versa in arterial blood. Chloride ion always diffuses in an opposite direction of bicarbonate ion in order to maintain a charge balance."

 

"At the lungs, the diffusion of oxygen into the blood ... reacts with and attaches to hemoglobin. This oxygenation reaction with hemoglobin produces excess H⁺ ions which react with HCO₃^- to produce H₂CO₃. The carbonic acid decomposes to CO₂ which diffuses out of the blood."

[Heisok]

I got to researching this based on some Magnesium Acetate comments. Got way over my head, and ended up reading several discussions by Nephrologist, Dr. Frederic Coe. One of many is linked to below.

http://kidneystones....into-the-urine/

 

  Bicarbonate A Better Buffer than Most

A buffer keeps pH relatively constant by taking up protons when they enter a solution and giving them up when alkali enters. It is a kind of shock absorber.

At the beginning, evolution favored bicarbonate. It is a buffer of considerable virtue in that it can take up protons or release them, like common buffers do, but has a special trait.

Bicarbonate is forever in equilibrium with carbon dioxide gas (CO₂). When bicarbonate takes on a proton to become carbonic acid, much of that acid becomes carbon dioxide gas. When protons are taken out of blood, CO₂ gas forms new carbonic acid which donates a new proton to the solution, and essentially bicarbonate appears in solution ‘out of thin air’. That it flows from solution into thin air and back makes bicarbonate a more stable buffer than those which live only in solution so it was an excellent choice.

What Kidneys do with Bicarbonate

It is this very molecule, bicarbonate, which the kidneys traffic in when they respond to alkali or acid loads, and it is, of course, CO₂ the lungs regulate in blood under the control of the brain.

The figure is from the ‘A’ panel of a lovely drawing in a lively and engaging review. Being small, bicarbonate is filtered, and being the main buffer of the blood almost all of what is filtered must be reclaimed. So the proximal tubule cells, which do most of that reclamation, busy themselves forever with that task.

The way they do it is the simplest way. They add protons (H⁺) to bicarbonate in the tubule fluid, which becomes, as I have said, carbonic acid that transforms into carbon dioxide (CO₂), which gas passes through the cell walls into the interior. Note, ‘CA’ is carbonic anhydrase an enzyme which speeds up the process of the transformation. In the cell, the CO₂ becomes carbonic acid. Because protons are being pumped into the tubule fluid, protons are stripped off the carbonic acid so it becomes bicarbonate. The bicarbonate enters the blood with Na via the NBCe1A transporter.

There are two proton pumps. One uses ATP for energy to move the protons. The other (NHE3) uses the low Na in the cell as a gradient; sodium moves in through a channel like a revolving door, which makes one proton go out for every Na that moves in. At the blood side of the cell, the ancient ‘Great’ ATPase pumps Na out and potassium in, as it does in most cells that live on Earth. NHE3, the exchanger, is the molecule we met a few paragraphs above. It is increased by Endothelin 1 via the ET1b receptor.

At the top of the left side of the picture is citrate, our little slice of this massive structure. A few scraps of proton add to citrate so it has 2, not 3 nnegative sites, and can be reabsorbed. Its gene is regulated by endothelin 1 so when NHE3 is increased so is NaDC1."

[normalizing]

im not that science savvy and i might be confused, but does it mean baking soda can be good for the kidneys? :/

[Heisok]

I doubt that they would recommend baking soda for kidney health due to the sodium. I posted the information, because of the discussion of bicarbonate. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

 

 

im not that science savvy and i might be confused, but does it mean baking soda can be good for the kidneys? :/

 

[normalizing]

well i was told some mineral waters are good for the kidneys but they contain sodium and bicarbonates