27 replies to this topic

[ramon25]

Hey guys I am at odd ends here with the best choline supplement though im strongly leaning towards alpha gpc and have read abunch of different expiriences on here, wanted to gather them in one place. How many of you noticed a serious decline in mental ability after stopping? Who felt benefits? who long have you been taking and do you plan on taking it indefinatley? I am trying to raise acetylcholine and dopamine to quit smoking or im smoking as a form of self medication from not enough acetylcholine/dopamine.

[nupi]

Alpha GPC did not seem to do anything for me either way but no ill effects after stopping, either.

If you want to fix Dopamine issues regarding smoking, I would look at Wellbutrin much before any of the cholinergics.

[ramon25]

Thanks for the response. I am already taking mucana pruriens for the dopa. wellbutrin, isnt that a drug?

[MrHappy]

Uridine modulates dopamine release in both directions.
http://www.sciencedi...09130579500169W
http://ebm.rsmjourna...4/1/49.abstract
http://docs.docstoc....a223d245da5.pdf

This was also an interesting read for nicotine:
http://molpharm.aspe.../4/925.full.pdf

[ramon25]

Thanks happy, i will look into it.

[MrHappy]

Uridine for treating tobacco / nicotine dependance:
http://www.freepaten...06/0217344.html

[ramon25]

You really do love that stuff dont you man? LOL
It seems that it was not only uridine though....but a combination

Edited by ramon25, 24 December 2011 - 12:14 AM.

[MrHappy]

Even without adenosine it has the same ability, but both are readily available.

Yes, I do.

From personal experience, over the last few months, I've seen so many improvements to my body and not just neurological.

Mood and cognitive repair / enhancements are the obvious benefits. Other readily observable improvements to muscle density, skin quality and eyesight have also unexpectedly occured and I've been retrospectively performing literature searches to understand why that is. The more information I've compiled the more amazed I am that this hasn't remained a staple part of our diet after early developmental years, when we get it from breast milk or formula. Our cellular health can and clearly will benefit from it at any age, not just postnatal. Less immediately obvious benefits include cardiovascular health, DNA protection/repair and mitochondrial disease treatment/prevention, according to the research.

I've finally come across something worth getting excited about and sharing. For me, that doesn't happen often..

[ramon25]

Can it be stacked with huperzine A?

[MrHappy]

It's an acetylcholine reuptake inhibitor, so perhaps you won't need as much/any additional choline, but I would think that's fine. I don't know if anyone else has tried it yet.

[ramon25]

Whats your opinion on getting it from brewers yeast and maca powder? I really am trying to go all "natural" LOL. Just feels better overall I guess. Thanks for the help man

[MrHappy]

Yeast didn't work well for others..

Spirulina, perhaps?

I think you'll see better results with the pure extract.

[ramon25]

didnt work well in what regard? Not producing the exact benefits as a pure extract, because that is to be expected?

Edited by ramon25, 27 December 2011 - 02:31 PM.

[MrHappy]

Pretty much. I think the issue is whether the yeast peptides can be broken down efficiently into uridine. Apparently, not so much.

If you are firm about using all natural, perhaps spirulina @ 5%, reishi @ ?% or RNA @ 25-50% You run a risk of gout with RNA sources, of course.

[ramon25]

So spirulina has alot of uridine in it huh?

[zorba990]

I didn't notice anything from alpha-gpc. My dopamine stack for pre-workout is ALCAR+Tyrosine+Allithiamine. I also add Arginine from time to time but not for dopamine support.

[MrHappy]

Any form of choline is anti-dopaminergic.. We're talking about another combo, Zorba990.

Some spirulina is 5%. There is a lot more info in the main uridine threads, if you haven't read them yet?

[ramon25]

I will check them out, I appreciate it man, for the help. That's also why i want to try the huperzine though becuase it also raised dopamine, not lowers it.

[zorba990]

Any form of choline is anti-dopaminergic.. We're talking about another combo, Zorba990.

Some spirulina is 5%. There is a lot more info in the main uridine threads, if you haven't read them yet?

I don't think so.

From pubmed:
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/3709792
In fact cholinergic agonists induce an activation of striatal dopaminergic output. alpha-GPC both i.p. and per os administered increased striatal dihydroxyphenylacetic acid (DOPAC) content. In addition, the in vitro K+ stimulated dopamine release was increased in rats treated in vivo with alpha-GPC

[MrHappy]

Interesting. Alpha-gpc may be an exception, then. Thanks for that.

That is quite different to previous studies with other forms of choline. Anti-cholinergics have been used as a mainstream treatment for Parkinsons's disease symptoms for some time.

[protoject]

I'm pretty sure CDP choline upregulates dopamine receptors too bro.

[protoject]

Interesting. Alpha-gpc may be an exception, then. Thanks for that.

That is quite different to previous studies with other forms of choline. Anti-cholinergics have been used as a mainstream treatment for Parkinsons's disease symptoms for some time.

I'm pretty sure CDP choline upregulates dopamine receptors too bro.

[MrHappy]

You'd be right - it breaks down to uridine + choline. Uridine would control dopamine levels.

[Rior]

Increased DOPAC really isn't a good thing. Increased DOPAC can potentially lead to an increased rate of onset for Parkinson's Disease. I say this not entirely on the basis of posted scientific research, but on my personal experience as an intern to a researcher at a university who's been working on learning the cause of Parkinson's for good amount of time. Though I honestly probably shouldn't be saying it publicly (although I doubt information on here will go extremely far) I'll just vaguely mention that lack of DOPAC clearance from the brain has been extremely implicated in the induction of PD. As this was solely one researcher and one experiment, I suppose it can be taken with a grain of salt. But the man I worked with is an incredibly, incredibly smart man, whose research thus far has resounding implications. There hasn't been a single hole in his research (thus far).

Sooo this leads me to wonder. If this research is true, then with abundant production of DOPAC without adequate removal of it will undoubtedly lead to a potentially faster onset of Parkinson's. Granted, Parkinson's is something people tend to have for life...I'm still not knowledgeable enough to know whether or not I would consider this safe.

Which is a major shame, because Alpha-GPC up until this point has seen resoundingly good implications for me, and I was actually hoping to find where I can buy it in bulk powdered form for a reasonable price. Still might do so, but this news has me slightly worried. Here's to hoping somebody can alleviate this worry.

[unregistered_user]

Anyone care to refute the above hypothesis?

[MrHappy]

"Links or GTFO" <chuckle>

Seriously though, if DOPAC breakdown/clearance was largely responsible for PD, we would have likely diagnosed and solved it already with COMT, 3-MT or other metabolite-style treatments.

[MrHappy]

Here's some more info on this.

High levels of DOPAC are probably due to high levels of DOPAL. DOPAL is what appears to be capable of killing off dopamine cells / neurons. DOPAL buildup in PD patients is likely due to upsetting the dopamine:ALDH enzyme ratio by constanty dumping in unbalanced doses of L-DOPA.

Link:
http://neurotalk.psy...read145293.html

[Rior]

Here's some more info on this.

High levels of DOPAC are probably due to high levels of DOPAL. DOPAL is what appears to be capable of killing off dopamine cells / neurons. DOPAL buildup in PD patients is likely due to upsetting the dopamine:ALDH enzyme ratio by constanty dumping in unbalanced doses of L-DOPA.

Link:
http://neurotalk.psy...read145293.html

DOPAL, that's the one. Couldn't directly remember which element of dopamine metabolism but after someone mentioned DOPAC I figured that was it. I had the internship over last July, it's been a while xD