1755 replies to this topic

[daouda]

There should be no reason why we need to pay more then $60 for 50mg even at retail pricing

More like 16usd for 50mg...

[curious_george]

http://www.google.co...tents/US6727227

can someone please look at these patents that Vladimir filed like 9 years ago and tell me if its legal to produce this peptide #1 and #2 if its legal to sell for research purposes ? or otherwise?

the way it looks to me is that the AGAG peptide has patents filed in several countries and looks to me like he was or is trying to corner the market.

if nobody else can sell it then it really isn't fair first of all as they can mark the price up to anything they want and sue anyone for making it right? I would like this spelled out for me by someone who really knows patent law and peptides and specifically this one I linked above.

what I am getting at is it would sure be nice if there were other labs out there that step up to the plate and sell this one day to compete with with the epitalon guys by selling a generic version AGAG

Edited by positiveeddy, 23 May 2013 - 04:47 AM.

[Logic]

http://www.google.co...tents/US6727227

can someone please look at these patents that Vladimir filed like 9 years ago and tell me if its legal to produce this peptide #1 and #2 if its legal to sell for research purposes ? or otherwise?

the way it looks to me is that the AGAG peptide has patents filed in several countries and looks to me like he was or is trying to corner the market.

if nobody else can sell it then it really isn't fair first of all as they can mark the price up to anything they want and sue anyone for making it right? I would like this spelled out for me by someone who really knows patent law and peptides and specifically this one I linked above.

what I am getting at is it would sure be nice if there were other labs out there that step up to the plate and sell this one day to compete with with the epitalon guys by selling a generic version AGAG

Sciwalk posted a while back that AGAG was produced for use in the manufacture of other things, before the patent came out.
You cant patent what is public knowledge but you can perhaps patent the specific uses for the peptide that Vladimir found, studied and published? I don't know?
Perhaps other labs can sell it 'for use in manufacturing' whatever it is?

[curious_george]

Yeah, that makes sense. I would really love to know from someone that has studied patent law what this means for us. I mean it should be illegal to corner a market so nobody else can make or sell the peptide intended for the same purposes, that is called a monopoly. There must be a way that there can be competition. Also this patent is over 10 years old so even if there was a period where he did have exclusivity, I would like to think that by now it would be an open game for anyone that wants to either make AGAG or sell it.

Can someone that knows 100% for sure that knows the law and how it breaks down for us respond? I am sure we would all like to know this answer and I would love to see some legal competition open up for this one and drive the prices down.

[pleb]

Re patents

Logic is right he can't patent AGAG for those reasons, what he has done is copyright the name Epithalon, which is a different thing,,

[curious_george]

Have you read the Patent I posted or any of the others he has made world-wide? It is very clear he has patented the AGAG sequence for use with anti-aging in any way shape or form. He has protected this extremely well. It is not just for the Epithalon name by everything I have read, it is for the actual sequence AGAG. In fact the Epithalon name does not even appear in the entire patent, it is strictly for AGAG sequence for use with anti-aging. This means you are not allowed to produce it or sell it or use it if the intended purpose is for anti-aging. This may not apply for research purposes though as I am not sure how the research material law works. From a patent perspective this is on lock down.

My question is about the validity of the patent in this day in age. Being that it is over a decade old, does it still hold up? Are you legally allowed to produce it #1? Are you legally allowed to sell it #2? You would be infringing on the patent if you do either of those and liable to be sued for a LOT of money - all of your profits if another lab was to sell it unless it is legal under research materials laws, question is has exclusivity expired for Vladimir so that generic's can be produced and sold?

Everything tells me he has a monopoly on AGAG sequence right now and it is rock solid. I am not familiar with the specifics with Patent law and Research material law. It is my understanding that it is illegal to have a monopoly #1. It is my understanding that you can make just about anything and sell it as a research material #2. It is also my understanding that even if you do have exclusivity when filing for a patent that it will not stay exclusive for ever, rather the patents are for a head start more or less over the pending competition #3.

I would like for someone who has actually studied patent law and research material law to comment on this so I know 100% without a shadow of a doubt about the legalities of #1. Producing AGAG sequence. #2. Selling the AGAG sequence. #3. Marketing the AGAG sequence as an anti-aging supplement. #4. Marketing it for human consumption.

Please lets try to keep this clean and hold back on posting, everyone has their own opinions on this however I really want a 100% rock solid answer from someone who has studied LAW and can educate us on these topics so we can all benefit from the answers.

Edited by positiveeddy, 23 May 2013 - 09:12 PM.

[niner]

Has he filed in all countries and jurisdictions? Pharmaceutical companies have to do that- if it's something they care about, they will cover it all over the world, or at least the developed world.

[pleb]

SciWalk posted quite a bit about this early on and mentioned that that kavinson had only copyrighted the name, are these patents actually granted or pending,

[curious_george]

http://www.khavinson....ru/patents he has filed 84 patents world-wide on AGAG and other peptides. It does look like he has this on Lock Down 100% and has done this on purpose over 10 years ago. There is a reason why this is not being produced and sold and more available and this is likely why. I would love to be told that the patents do not hold much weight at present time and that generic's can be produced and sold, even if its for research purposes only.

SciWalk posted quite a bit about this early on and mentioned that that kavinson had only copyrighted the name, are these patents actually granted or pending,

I think I replied too fast, if my other reply shows up later I apologize for the double post.

These have been granted a very long time ago. It is extremely clear the patents are for the sequence AGAG and not just for the Epithalon or Epitalon name however you want to spell it. This is on 100% lockdown according to his patent frenzy that he went on over a decade ago. There are reasons why this hasn't become more available I do believe. The question that remains is if the patents hold up in the present day or if you are liable for infringement if you are to produce it or sell it.

Edited by positiveeddy, 23 May 2013 - 09:03 PM.

[Dreamer]

Sounds to me as if you are looking for a free legal opinion. If it is so important to you that you get a reliable legal opinion that will hol,d up in a court of law, why are you looking for it free in a public forum? This ain't the place to get it IMHO. Hire a patent attorney.

[curious_george]

Sounds to me as if you are looking for a free legal opinion. If it is so important to you that you get a reliable legal opinion that will hol,d up in a court of law, why are you looking for it free in a public forum? This ain't the place to get it IMHO. Hire a patent attorney.

Thanks for your great help. I figured that there may be some actual scientists who have gone through the actual patent process on this forum and might be kind enough to tell us about this. If these questions are on my mind then I am quite positive that they are on a lot of other minds as well and would appreciate a reply from someone that has already been through the process and knows all about this. I can hire a patent attorney but that only solves part of the questions.

[diogenes]

positiveeddy: "If these questions are on my mind then I am quite positive that they are on a lot of other minds as well and would appreciate a reply from someone that has already been through the process and knows all about this. I can hire a patent attorney but that only solves part of the questions"

I agree these are important questions and I think several people would like to know the answers. However, patent law is such a specialized area, if certitude is important I think it would be imperative to run them past a patent attorney.

[curious_george]

well, I took your advice and just paid for a rock solid answer... will post the response and let everyone know soon what exactly can and can't be done here...

[Methos000]

I do know that companies such as Genscript will synthesize Epithalon upon request 'for research purposes'. I don't think they're at all concerned about Khavinson or his attorneys.

[curious_george]

I did get a response from a patent lawyer already. It is definitely protected under patent and they have the right to sue anyone for making or selling or using for the purpose of anti aging until the year 2024 when it comes off patent and the invention becomes public knowledge. So we have another 10.5 years to wait until this technically becomes legal to make and use etc.

pretty much sucks... just some info fyi... I wouldn't be concerned about having it made for personal consumption but anything more then that and this guy finds out someone is benefiting financially from selling his invention and I would assume there would be some trouble with the law...

[Methos000]

I did get a response from a patent lawyer already. It is definitely protected under patent and they have the right to sue anyone for making or selling or using for the purpose of anti aging until the year 2024 when it comes off patent and the invention becomes public knowledge. So we have another 10.5 years to wait until this technically becomes legal to make and use etc.

pretty much sucks... just some info fyi... I wouldn't be concerned about having it made for personal consumption but anything more then that and this guy finds out someone is benefiting financially from selling his invention and I would assume there would be some trouble with the law...

...but manufacture "for research purposes only" is not covered. (?)

Edited by Methos000, 24 May 2013 - 02:51 PM.

[diogenes]

I did get a response from a patent lawyer already. It is definitely protected under patent and they have the right to sue anyone for making or selling or using for the purpose of anti aging until the year 2024 when it comes off patent and the invention becomes public knowledge. So we have another 10.5 years to wait until this technically becomes legal to make and use etc.

pretty much sucks... just some info fyi... I wouldn't be concerned about having it made for personal consumption but anything more then that and this guy finds out someone is benefiting financially from selling his invention and I would assume there would be some trouble with the law...

Good work on getting a solid answer about the patent protection.

Odd, isn't it, that the patent holder is not aggresively marketing AGAG after this many years?

[zorba990]

I did get a response from a patent lawyer already. It is definitely protected under patent and they have the right to sue anyone for making or selling or using for the purpose of anti aging until the year 2024 when it comes off patent and the invention becomes public knowledge. So we have another 10.5 years to wait until this technically becomes legal to make and use etc.

pretty much sucks... just some info fyi... I wouldn't be concerned about having it made for personal consumption but anything more then that and this guy finds out someone is benefiting financially from selling his invention and I would assume there would be some trouble with the law...

So don't sell it for anti-aging use. Sell it for dream enhancement.

[curious_george]

I wouldn't suggest selling it any time soon as it would be extremely easy to prove you sold for human consumption #1 &/or for anti-aging #2. Getting in trouble with the law for #1 and sued for patent infringement with #2. You could have all the disclaimers in the world but it wouldn't even come close to protecting you if everyone used it for these purposes. I'd say its fine to have it made for personal 'research' with no worries at all but I sure wouldn't push the boundries of marketing and selling it until it comes off patent in 2024.

Edited by positiveeddy, 24 May 2013 - 09:49 PM.

[nefarious one]

It's really quite simple. Buy it for your own research use via a simple Google search to source it. literally, typing in "buy epitalon" will bring you the cheapest source from SRC. Amazing!

[zen]

It's really quite simple. Buy it for your own research use via a simple Google search to source it. literally, typing in "buy epitalon" will bring you the cheapest source from SRC. Amazing!

What is SRC ?

[daouda]

SRC = an american research peptides company that is reliable and sells good stuff but their epitalon is waaayyyyy overpriced and far from the cheapest source (even the insanely overpriced bioluma product is cheaper)

[DorianGrey]

Is there any evidence that Epitalon sublingual or oral at about 3mg/day really activates telomerase?Isn't there a single person that has tested before and after a couple of months on the drug, without too many other changes in lifestyle or supplementation in between?

What I've seen in the literature hasn't convinced me yet, some effect in mice to push the maximum lifespan and one paper using 5ug/mL for 4 days on a single cell line (fibroblasts, difference was 34 vs 44 divisions. I thought the Hayflick limit is 50?). Also, I am not fully sure that using ELISA kit or fluorescence is the best way to come up with best results (this was ten years ago, so maybe appropriate at that time).

I keep an eye on epitalon, but I wouldn't try it yet until there is at least a bit more data on safety and efficacy. Is it approved as a drug for any indication? That would produce enough safety data.

Epithalon peptide induces telomerase activity and telomere elongation in human somatic cells. Khavinson, V.K.h., Bondarev, I.E., Butyugov, A.A. Bull. Exp. Biol. Med. (2003) [Pubmed]
http://morelife.org/...rs/12937682.pdf

Bull Exp Biol Med. 2004 May;137(5):503-6.
Peptide promotes overcoming of the division limit in human somatic cell.
Khavinson VKh, Bondarev IE, Butyugov AA, Smirnova TD.
Source

St. Petersburg Institute of Bioregulation and gerontology, North-Western Division of Russian Academy of Medical Sciences.

Abstract
We previously showed that treatment of normal human diploid cells with Epithalon (Ala-Glu-Asp-Gly) induced expression of telomerase catalytic subunit, its enzymatic activity, and elongation of telomeres. Here we studied the effect of this peptide on proliferative potential of human fetal fibroblasts. Primary pulmonary fibroblasts derived from a 24-week fetus lost the proliferative potential at the 34th passage. The mean size of telomeres in these cells was appreciably lower than during early passages (passage 10). Addition of Epithalon to aging cells in culture induced elongation of telomeres to the size comparable to their length during early passages. Peptide-treated cells with elongated telomeres made 10 extra divisions (44 passages) in comparison with the control and continued dividing. Hence, Epithalon prolonged the vital cycle of normal human cells due to overcoming the Heyflick limit.

Edited by DorianGrey, 01 June 2013 - 11:19 PM.

[free10]

Is there any evidence that Epitalon sublingual or oral at about 3mg/day really activates telomerase?Isn't there a single person that has tested before and after a couple of months on the drug, without too many other changes in lifestyle or supplementation in between?

What I've seen in the literature hasn't convinced me yet, some effect in mice to push the maximum lifespan and one paper using 5ug/mL for 4 days on a single cell line (fibroblasts, difference was 34 vs 44 divisions. I thought the Hayflick limit is 50?). Also, I am not fully sure that using ELISA kit or fluorescence is the best way to come up with best results (this was ten years ago, so maybe appropriate at that time).

I keep an eye on epitalon, but I wouldn't try it yet until there is at least a bit more data on safety and efficacy. Is it approved as a drug for any indication? That would produce enough safety data.

Epithalon peptide induces telomerase activity and telomere elongation in human somatic cells. Khavinson, V.K.h., Bondarev, I.E., Butyugov, A.A. Bull. Exp. Biol. Med. (2003) [Pubmed]
http://morelife.org/...rs/12937682.pdf

Bull Exp Biol Med. 2004 May;137(5):503-6.
Peptide promotes overcoming of the division limit in human somatic cell.
Khavinson VKh, Bondarev IE, Butyugov AA, Smirnova TD.
Source

St. Petersburg Institute of Bioregulation and gerontology, North-Western Division of Russian Academy of Medical Sciences.

Abstract
We previously showed that treatment of normal human diploid cells with Epithalon (Ala-Glu-Asp-Gly) induced expression of telomerase catalytic subunit, its enzymatic activity, and elongation of telomeres. Here we studied the effect of this peptide on proliferative potential of human fetal fibroblasts. Primary pulmonary fibroblasts derived from a 24-week fetus lost the proliferative potential at the 34th passage. The mean size of telomeres in these cells was appreciably lower than during early passages (passage 10). Addition of Epithalon to aging cells in culture induced elongation of telomeres to the size comparable to their length during early passages. Peptide-treated cells with elongated telomeres made 10 extra divisions (44 passages) in comparison with the control and continued dividing. Hence, Epithalon prolonged the vital cycle of normal human cells due to overcoming the Heyflick limit.

The Hayflick limit varies according to age (how many divisions left) and also varies according to what type of cells you are using. Some I think are down around 20 or 30.

[AdamI]

No evidence in humans just lab test on cells and rats, that injected it... but if your looking for 100% truth I think it will take along time:)
"
It was shown that treatment of normal human diploid cells with Epithalon (Ala-Glu-Asp-Gly) induced expression of telomerase catalytic subunit, its enzymatic activity, and elongation of telomeres. So scientists studied the effect of this peptide on proliferative potential of human fetal fibroblasts.
Primary pulmonary fibroblasts derived from a 24-week fetus lost the proliferative potential at the 34^th passage. The mean size of telomeres in these cells was appreciably lower than during early passages (passage 10).
Addition of Epithalon to aging cells in culture induced elongation of telomeres to the size comparable to their length during early passages. Peptide-treated cells with elongated telomeres made 10 extra divisions (44 passages) in comparison with the control and continued dividing.
Hence, Epithalon prolonged the vital cycle of normal human cells due to overcoming the Heyflick limit."

Edited by AdamI, 02 June 2013 - 05:00 PM.

[curious_george]

I am ordering a Premium test from http://www.telome.com & I will be starting my Telomere lengthening treatment beginning July 1st 2013.

I will take another test at 6 months. Another at 12 months. Again at 24 months. And again at 60 months.

I will post all results on this thread.

Edited by positiveeddy, 02 June 2013 - 05:20 PM.

[Logic]

I am ordering a Premium test from http://www.telome.com & I will be starting my Telomere lengthening treatment beginning July 1st 2013.

I will take another test at 6 months. Another at 12 months. Again at 24 months. And again at 60 months.

I will post all results on this thread.

That will be interesting!
What other activators will you be taking? They will skew the results and we wont be sure its the Epitalon working.

[curious_george]

I will only be consuming AGAG and no other lifestyle changes really. It will be a very accurate test to see how well it works.

[daouda]

So, who would be up for a group buy of epitalon (for research purposes of course)?


I asked a reputable company for a quote for 5g of >98% AGAG aliquoted to 50 tubes (so that's 100mg per tube which seems the most convenient)
With a nice discount the final quote (not including shipping) is 1030euros (1338.7 usd) : This is 20.6 euros (that's USD 26.77) per 100mg!
(this is less than 54 usd for 200mg, compare to bioluma 700 usd for 200mg! Almost 13 times the price! - clearly a shameless ripoff)
I will have to confirm this price as they offered me a 20%+ discount for a quote that included other peptides as well (however the reason they gave for the discount was that it'd be my first order, and then I took some time before responding to their offer so they raised the discount again), but the discount-less price is 1320.27 eur.
.
With 10 participants getting 500mg each, this would be 103 eur (usd 133.87) per person (+shipping charges) (166 days supply at 3mg / day)
5 participants getting 1g each, 206 eur (usd 267.74) per person (+shipping charges) (333 days supply at 3mg / day)

Potential issues I can foresee :

- If shipping during summer, wouldnt heat risk damaging the peptide?

- 50 tubes in one order, this could be a big package and attract french customs attention. Best case scenario in that eventuality, the order could be taxed (how much?), worst case it could be blocked.
If someone living in another european country with lax-er customs (although I never had any problems with research peptides coming from the US or asia in the past, but the orders were probably smaller) were willing to participate maybe it would be the better option for him/her to collect and dispatch the order.
I need to ask the peptide company the size and weight of the package, if not that big, I wont have any problem being the organizer/dispatcher (again, ive ordered research peptides like GHRP, thymosin beta 4 and IGF-1 in qtties of a dozen vials multiple times before without any issues, slipped right through customs)

Edited by daouda, 02 June 2013 - 07:01 PM.

[Dreamer]

Perhaps they would be agreeable to shipping the proportionate share to each of the buyers? Even if at an extra charge, it could well be workable. there will be extra charges to divide and sip the second time no matter how it's done.