1755 replies to this topic

[researchist]

What is the relationship between AGAG and AEDG? Same? Different sequences? I see the sequence of epitalon as AGAG.

[sciwalk]

The true scientific code is AEDG but people have used AGAG just so as not to confuse others because the sequence is Ala-Glu-Asp-Gly. But in the scientific world, of course we cannot make it simple such as AGAG, because other amino acids would share the same letters so instead it is AEDG with E and D being true acids so having different lettering.

[researchist]

Thanks. I did not know if I was missing something. l-ALA l-GLU L-ASP GLY. AGAG has 2 a's and 2g's which could be any one of several in any order and the AEDG expresses that somehow. I have been concerned that the "L" is excluded from the description. Is there something that tells a chemist which of the aminos are L or D in ALA-GLU-ASP-GLY?

[Dreamer]

Here is a table of Common Amino Acids with their 3 letter symbols and 1 letter symbols.

Attached Thumbnails

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[solarfingers]

just wanted to know if it could be an interesting offer/product, and let now that it was also available there, as everyone including me seems hard to find a simple and reliable way to see what epithalone can do for them.

The product is interesting. Tablet format represents a big improvement in convenience. The pricing is problematic, though.

Yes, I agree and definitely the product of a middle man company which is obviouse because of the steep price. How can they survive patent infringements?

Administrative Contact:
Name : XU
Organization : XU FENGPENG
Address : GUANG ZHOU
City : GUANG ZHOU
Province/State : Guangdong
Country : China

That's how. This is definitely not a French website. After examining the website it is not an affiliate website but a loyalty website. Your price gets better with order frequency. I think I'll pass...

[blood]

Yes, I agree and definitely the product of a middle man company which is obviouse because of the steep price.

I get the impression that steep prices are par for the course for supplements sold in Europe.

The sublingual epitalon is apparently made by this company:
http://www.supersmart.com/

They do have some interesting products, like acetylated glutathione, cycloastrogenol, oxaloacetate, a "telomere maintenance formula", an "anti-glycation formula" with aminoguanidine & pyridoxamine, apple polyphenols, carb blockers,etc.

The prices on some of their items are insane.

Complete (A-z) product listing:
http://www.supersmar...es.pl?page=tous

For some reason they don't seem to be selling the epitalon on the supersmart.com site itself.

Edited by blood, 20 July 2013 - 08:12 AM.

[Fred_CALICO]

I order some supplements home. The price is high but the advantage is that the package arrives from Luxembourg to France without customs problem. Recurrent problems in France.

[solarfingers]

I get the impression that steep prices are par for the course for supplements sold in Europe.

The sublingual epitalon is apparently made by this company:
http://www.supersmart.com/

That's was my point. If you do a whois on supersmart.com you get information about the company in China not in Europe. They may be selling internationally but their home is in China. I can understand the high prices going into France but the US price is almost three times the going rate for supps on their site.

I really don't get sell58. Firstly, his name, "sell58." Yet he says he isn't a vendor trying to sell us something even though his first post is pointing us to a vendor. Secondly, I mention patent infringements and he puts up an avatar that says, "No copy right?" I'm not offended by people trying to sell and market things but isn't this kindof against forum rules? It could be that sell58 is actually a Frenchman who is just trying to be informative yet perception says otherwise. I would be really happy with supersmart.com if they had supersmart prices. They are three times more expensive than the current going market on all of their supps. Their loyalty based discounts are stupid if the base price is more than what people would ordinarilly pay. IMHO

Jarrow Formulas Acetyl L-Carnitine 500mg 120 Count $22.63

Supersmart Acetyl L-Carnitine 500mg 120 Count $64.30

in France: Jarrow Formulas Acetyl L-Carnitine 500mg 120 Count EUR 36,39

Converted to US = $47.80 which makes Supersmart a third more expensive in France.

Edited by solarfingers, 20 July 2013 - 10:57 AM.

[Amesz]

To Sciwalk:

The product is available in France, i could have posted the french link,
https://www.super-nu...--AntiAge--H644
I knew i was adressing to english people, so i clicked on the american/english sign before to post, nothing more.
First time i heard fo this product was in the june paper newsletter from smartcity/supersmart.com
(see attached picture) that i receive everytime since i've bought some products there, even if i had a paper price list too, i found strange that epitalon was'nt featured on the website, so i decided to give a phone call to know if the product had been forbidden or something else, i was told that the product would be available very soon on the affiliate site super-nutrition, and when i looked, it already was, i instantly remembered that there was a separate site for all hormonal products, where i bought melatonine (wich makes me sick by the way) stupid of me !
But you're right, there's some kind of legal issue in France concerning these products, i don't know how putting them on a different site solve it and i'm not interested to know as long as i can obtain anything i think is good for me.
Now in order not to spend to much time on a "you're wrong, i'm right" type conversation and as there's nothing i can do to prove that i'm not a shill and there's nothing you can do to prove i am, what if we just leave it like that ?
Everyone here is clever enough to make it's own opinion and it's boring for every one to read these kinds of neverending virtual battles you can find in every f....n forum of the web.
In fact, the the first interesting opinion on this product i was expecting was yours, so would you like to tell what you think about sublingual absorption for epitalon, is solid form a good idea for conservation, what do you think of the dosage/price ratio and maybe more important, do you think this company is reliable ?
Sometimes i feel big companies are good because of standardized fabrications, experience but maybe for such upfront products, it's better to adress to specialized labs ?
By the way, thanks for the info related to my condition and to have cleared the AEDG /AGAG difference issue.



To Researchist and Blood
In Euros, the price seems a little harder to swallow, i you add the easiness of use, that's what made me interested by this retail product, but you're true, in dollars, price change the deal a little i guess.
It seems that you can buy from the US too.

To Solarfingers:
Can you clear the term "middle man company" for me, does it mean we should avoid to buy there ?
Thanks for the investigation on this company.

[solarfingers]

Amesz, "middle man company" simply means that this is a reseller or someone who purchases from the source and repackages it. You would expect a middle man company to up the price by 50% since this is standard practice but to charge three times the source is generally a form of price gouging. Price gouging is a pejorative term referring to a situation in which a seller prices goods or commodities much higher than is considered reasonable or fair. Who you buy from is a matter of choice but there is nothing about Supersmart that appeals to me as a vendor of choice. What appeals to me would generally appeal to most people. Reliability, purity, low cost are all things that make a supplement company noteworthy. IMHO.

[hav]

To Sciwalk:

The product is available in France, i could have posted the french link,
https://www.super-nu...--AntiAge--H644
...

I think there's an error in their literature. It says that in a study:

Professor Vladimir Dilman noted that the biopeptide epithalamine could increase the lifespan of rats by 25%.

and later says that:

Epitalon is this same biopeptide, synthesised from four gero-protective amino acids (tetrapeptide : L-alanyl-l-glutamyl-l-asparagyl-glycine)

Not true. Here's the abstract of the actual 1979 study by Dilman & Khavinson:
Increase in lifespan of rats following polypeptide pineal extract treatment

The abstract above doesn't tell us exactly what epithalamine consists of but in a later paper by Klavinson, it is described in detail:

An officinal preparation - epithalamin - contains a complex of biologically active peptides isolated from cattle pineal glands... it was found that the above substances were complexes of peptides in three main fractions... 74:16:10 (in percent) with molecular weights of 250, 11000, and 1200 respectively...

Obviously, synthetic epithalon could only be one of the 3 components actually tested. Oddly, the little COA affixed to my bottle of {ALA}{GLU}{ASP}{GLY} from Genscript specifies:

MW: 390.25

Suggesting that not only is epithalon definitely not the same as epithalamine, it is not even one of the three main fractions.

Howard

Edited by hav, 21 July 2013 - 04:07 PM.

[researchist]

Effect of Melatonin and Tetrapeptide
on Gene Expression in Mouse Brain
S. V. Anisimov*,**, V. Kh. Khavinson**, and V. N. Anisimov**,***
Bulletin of Experimental Biology and Medicine, 2004, 138 (11): 570-576.
"Melatonin is a major mediator of endocrine function in the pineal gland. It should be emphasized that activity of the pineal gland is realized via secretion of epiphyseal peptides [4]. Epithalamin, a complex peptide bioregulator of the pineal gland, decelerates aging, increases lifespan in drosophilae, mice and rats, and inhibits spontaneous and induced carcinogenesis in rodents [4]. The study of the amino acid composition in Epithalamin allowed us to synthesize Epithalon (Ala-Glu-Asp-Gly) with a molecular weight of 390.35 Da [4] ". Chem24h lists MW as 390.35284. Moravek biochemicals sells it and the molecular weight according to them is M.W. 390.4. What is the level of purity that you ordered from genscript? Yours seems to be a bit lighter than all the references to it I list. I ordered from GenScript and have some time to wait yet. I think I ordered 98%. I will see what the MW is of what I get. I don't know what are other reasons that the MW could legitimately vary or the amount of error that is reasonable. I recognize the inconsistency you point out though and it leaves me wondering. It definitely does not seem logically consistent but if you notice the sentence I quoted maybe it doesn't have to be any of those 3 fractions in that he sayd "Epithalamin allowed us to synthesize Epithalon". The variation of all these molecular weights concerns me but I'm a little new to peptide synthesis.

[solarfingers]

The variation of all these molecular weights concerns me but I'm a little new to peptide synthesis.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the molecular weight. The weight can simply boil down to the method of synthesis and the nature of the final form. Did VK freez dry it in the end or use some other method to get it to a solid form. Perhapse he kept it in a liquid form. Synthesis is an advancing science andI would bet that things have changes dramatically over the last few years. If freeze dried, how much moisture remained in the final product? There has to be some range based upon the amount of time that the substance is allowed to freeze dry. I would also guess that Genscript's batches could very from time to time.

Edited by solarfingers, 22 July 2013 - 10:43 AM.

[hav]

Effect of Melatonin and Tetrapeptide
on Gene Expression in Mouse Brain
S. V. Anisimov*,**, V. Kh. Khavinson**, and V. N. Anisimov**,***
Bulletin of Experimental Biology and Medicine, 2004, 138 (11): 570-576.
"Melatonin is a major mediator of endocrine function in the pineal gland. It should be emphasized that activity of the pineal gland is realized via secretion of epiphyseal peptides [4]. Epithalamin, a complex peptide bioregulator of the pineal gland, decelerates aging, increases lifespan in drosophilae, mice and rats, and inhibits spontaneous and induced carcinogenesis in rodents [4]. The study of the amino acid composition in Epithalamin allowed us to synthesize Epithalon (Ala-Glu-Asp-Gly) with a molecular weight of 390.35 Da [4] ". Chem24h lists MW as 390.35284. Moravek biochemicals sells it and the molecular weight according to them is M.W. 390.4. What is the level of purity that you ordered from genscript? Yours seems to be a bit lighter than all the references to it I list.

Just double checked my most recent order and I typed it wrong. It's actually MW: 390.35. My apologies. Purity is listed as 98.2%. I did take a photo of the sticker on my only other order last year and it showed MW: 390.35 also.

I noticed in the Epithalamin study I read that they mentioned something about lipidizing their extract. I wonder if that might be why none of the molecular weights they cited match Epithalon.

Howard

[researchist]

390.35 sounds closer to the average but at lease we a concensus that there are reasons for the variance and that it is likely not significant. Have you noticed any results from epitalon. What dosage are you working with? Are you doing anything else to supplement it? I got some milk-thistle which is cheap, some product b, which is expensive and some other stuff. Maybe they will be synergistic, probably won't hurt. I might stop other related supps. when I get my epitalon.

[solarfingers]

This article, "Aging Cells Lose Their Grip On DNA Rogues" provides a significant understanding of why chromatin expression ( hence via the use of Epitalon) helps prevent cells from degrading due to DNA fragments left over from cellular division... Very interesting. Chromatin is lacking as we get older.

[researchist]

Is it necessary to mix epitalon with a liquid before administering?. I understand that once mixed as a liquid it does not have a long shelf life. Can a few mg's of it be measured out and then administered sublngually?

[blood]

The abstract above doesn't tell us exactly what epithalamine consists of but in a later paper by Klavinson, it is described in detail:

An officinal preparation - epithalamin - contains a complex of biologically active peptides isolated from cattle pineal glands... it was found that the above substances were complexes of peptides in three main fractions... 74:16:10 (in percent) with molecular weights of 250, 11000, and 1200 respectively...

Obviously, synthetic epithalon could only be one of the 3 components actually tested. Oddly, the little COA affixed to my bottle of {ALA}{GLU}{ASP}{GLY} from Genscript specifies:

MW: 390.25

Suggesting that not only is epithalon definitely not the same as epithalamine, it is not even one of the three main fractions.

Howard

Is epithalon "bioidentical" to a hormone in the human body, or is the {ALA}{GLU}{ASP}{GLY} string a substring (or other patentable modification) of an endogenous peptide? That could explain why epitalon has a different molecular weight to the fractions in epithalamine. Maybe the inventors took the shortest fraction (MW 250) and added an extra amino acid (or some similar manipulation)?

Edited by blood, 23 July 2013 - 07:17 AM.

[Methos000]

Is it necessary to mix epitalon with a liquid before administering?. I understand that once mixed as a liquid it does not have a long shelf life. Can a few mg's of it be measured out and then administered sublngually?

If you're capable of working with such small amounts of powder, you could do this. However, I read that once the powder is exposed to air, it soon turns into a gummy mess so as not to be usable. I would also be concerned that my breath might disperse my several mg dose before it reaches my tongue.

I mixed mine with distilled water and wine, and put it in a spray bottle. As it degrades over several months, I expect that more sprays will be required to obtain the same dose of Epithalon. Sciwalk says he measured 87% potency at the 90-day mark after mixing.

Edited by Methos000, 23 July 2013 - 04:21 PM.

[jabowery]

Retarding the cellular senescence by Epithalon and changes of telomere length and telomerase activity in the retarding process
GAO Wen-juan...

Effect of Epithalon on celluar telomere and tlomerase
GAO Wen-juan...

Has anyone provided an explanation for why the M-Prize hasn't included a winner using epithalon?

[sciwalk]

You can take it in its powder form. However, there will be a substantial amount left behind in the containing vessel.
Because of its small size, it is easy to absorb moisture and will become glue like. However, as we have done, it is possible to modify its PH level and thereby make it stable even in the open air. In fact, as such, we no longer have to add Mannitol.

AEDG is a substrate of the full hormone (actually not considered a true hormone but rather referred to as a "substance" LOL).

Epithalamine is extremely unstable and has a very short 1/2 life, about 1 to 2 hours. Epitalon was found to promote the same, desired, effects and as a chemically produced peptide, is far more stable with a much longer 1/2 life. That is not to say that the true extraction would not have greater and additional affects on the body but for our purposes, Logevity, Epitalon does what is needed.

[researchist]

Thanks Methos. I'm glad I asked. Its being shipped as we speak I have a milligram scale which is accurate. I've been using it to measure sunifiram and noopept and everything Is fine with that. So epitalon gets clumpy, It is probably absorbing moisture out of the air. Since according to sciwalk it loses some potency toward the end of 3 months. I will make an amount for 1 month, maybe 5*30 = 150 mg (wow my 500mg wont last long like that) and mix with maybe X-ml of water. I was thinking bacteriostatic water. So I have to figure out X so that my dose will be .1 ml which is the main graduation on the oral syringe and easy to measure. What was the wine for then?

[solarfingers]

Has anyone provided an explanation for why the M-Prize hasn't included a winner using epithalon?

The rules may have made it difficult and they may have not been aware of the prize at the time:

The only absolute requirement for eligibility for the Longevity or the Rejuvenation Prize is that you deliver your claimed winner to us, to arrive within a week of its death, in a condition that leaves no possibility that it has been dead for appreciably longer than you claim...

Tag the mice in a manner that prevents any accidental switching of younger mice with older ones...

The treated mice must have been assessed for at least five different markers that change significantly with age in the controls, and there must be a statistically significant reversal in the trajectory of those five markers in the treated mice at some time after treatment began versus some time before it began...

Since they conducted tests on all of their mice it may have been impossible to deliver a live one under the conditions mandated by the prize rules.

Good question though...

You can take it in its powder form. However, there will be a substantial amount left behind in the containing vessel.
Because of its small size, it is easy to absorb moisture and will become glue like. However, as we have done, it is possible to modify its PH level and thereby make it stable even in the open air. In fact, as such, we no longer have to add Mannitol.

AEDG is a substrate of the full hormone (actually not considered a true hormone but rather referred to as a "substance" LOL).

Epithalamine is extremely unstable and has a very short 1/2 life, about 1 to 2 hours. Epitalon was found to promote the same, desired, effects and as a chemically produced peptide, is far more stable with a much longer 1/2 life. That is not to say that the true extraction would not have greater and additional affects on the body but for our purposes, Logevity, Epitalon does what is needed.

Can you open the vile, seal it and put it back in the freezer without it turning to unusable paste?

[pleb]

Depending on the size of the vial it's in peptides can be frozen after reconstitution and wont degrade, BB'rs do this with some of their peptides and they will last frozen for about 2 years but freezing then de-freezing will effect it if done to often

[researchist]

Its in the mail. They sent it yesterday. The anticipation is... I don't know how it will be but I think the advice of sciwalk and methos000 is good. I should take my time and do it right. Should I use the wine also? Apparently this is one of many small molecules which the Russians have been working on for quite a few years. Some others I came across were

Vilon
Livagen
Prostamax
Thymosins
Thymalin
CORTAGEN
LIVAGEN
DELTARAN
Thymosins There are some more that are being marketed at a European site. I don't know whether Dr Khavinson was involved with them.

I had thought I would freeze it. Take it out and scrape out a few mgs and put it back. The container will probably be very small. It is probably an unsound idea and would not have a good outcome. I only have 500mg.

[solarfingers]

So, I could take a 50mg vile and mix the contents into 12.5ml of distilled water and 12.5ml of 14 proof wine coming to 2mg/ml... If I take 2mg/ml a day this will last for 25 days... just under a month... So one would not have to worry about the Epitalon losing it's potency as long as it is kept in the fridge. Is this a sound methodology?

Mine will arrive today... Four 50mg viles

Edited by solarfingers, 23 July 2013 - 05:26 PM.

[pleb]

it can be kept as is in the freezer, the problem arises when you open it to remove the small amount you need for say one month moist air enters and causes it to clog and become useless,
although you think of it as a powder its actually stuck together like a lump of cotton wool so you cannot tip out the amount you need,

you can buy empty vials on ebay get enough that you have a vial for each month that you have an amount for, work out with a bit of maths how much bac water or sterile water and wine you will need for each and mix some in the original vial until it reconstitutes as you have half a gram take out 50 mlg with a syringe and put this in each vial then fill each vial up with the correct amount of bac water or water and wine, the one you intend using can be put in the fridge and the others the freezer until you have used the first then take one out of the freezer for the second month ,

Edited by pleb, 23 July 2013 - 05:24 PM.

[researchist]

I looked at the tracking number and it is on the truck for delivery to my research lab. Will wine help stabilize the mixture? Is bacteriostatic water good? I'm not sure about distilled. I

[solarfingers]

I looked at the tracking number and it is on the truck for delivery to my research lab. Will wine help stabilize the mixture? Is bacteriostatic water good? I'm not sure about distilled. I

I would think you could just boil your water for 10 minutes... That will kill any presence of bacteria.

[pleb]

sterile water just boil some tap water in a small pan and let it cool, use wine the amount is about 2 water to one wine, yes back water is just as good,
the hardest part is working out the amount as the vial it is in wont be large enough ? to take all the water needed,so you need two lots of water adding to reconstitute it to the correct amount,

Edited by pleb, 23 July 2013 - 05:28 PM.