1755 replies to this topic

[hav]

Thanks for the info Howard. The price is starting to get reasonable- that's nice. Although you only dosed for 3 months, given the six month time span, I'm curious- Are you noticing anything that you could ascribe to the use of epitalon? What's your take on it, at this point?

I think I recall more vivid dreaming and I definitely recall feeling I had to exercise care not to increase my eating. I also noticed an uptick in my endurance which might explain why I only noticed a slight further increase in endurance when I started taking c60 when I was running out of epithalon. I'm curious whether I get a further uptick in endurance when I restart. I'll report what I notice this time around. A possible telomere effect is my main motivation for restarting epithalon.

Howard

[pleb]

i'm also taking C60 and Epitalon
i don't know if this may be relevant ,I have a slightly underactive thyroid, slightly raised BP and enlarged prostate, and i had missed taking my tablets for about 6 days, i had lost my repeat prescription, a few days before, and had to see my doc for a new one,
because of that he suggested BP and blood tests which i would have every 6 months normally, after getting the results at my request the nurse compared them with all previous tests for the last 2 years apart from a slightly high BP everything was normal

)

Edited by pleb, 20 December 2012 - 09:00 AM.

[smithx]

Off topic, but it sounds like your doctor is trying to get more money out of you. Why didn't he just phone in a new prescription rather than making you come in and then pay for extra tests?

[pleb]

NHS we don't pay this side of the pond, for tests or medicine, or seeing the doctor,
my prescription covers 3 months and he wanted me to have the tests first to see if the prescription needed changing from what i was already on, but thanks for the concern,

Edited by pleb, 20 December 2012 - 09:36 PM.

[mikey]

I've been taking roughly a 6 month time-out from epithalon and will resume with the new year. I only took it around 3 months at a 5 mg dose between March and June cycled 3 weeks on followed by 1 week off. I think this time I'll do it every other week taking it on weeks I take astragalus extract. Btw, I just reordered 1 gram from Genscript and the cost was around 1/2 what they charged me last February. COA indicates purity of 98.2% this time.

Howard

I was just on the Genscript site and searched for epithalon, the peptide order number and ALA-GLU-ASP-GLY and none of the search terms found it.

Will you please provide the URL of the page where you can order it from Genscript, Howard?

Thank you.

[hav]

Hi, Mikey. It's not a Genscript stock product. It's a custom synthesis product. By menu, you can get to it by navigating: Services, Peptide Services, Peptide Synthesis, the clicking on "Secure Instant Online Quotation". Or try this URL which I sleuth off the browser after navigating their menus: https://www.genscrip...eptide_chemical

When you get to the form, enter the sequence in this format in the peptide sequence field and validate it: {ALA}{GLU}{ASP}{GLY}

I also typed in "Epithalon" in the name field, selected 1 vial, 1000 mg quantity, and >98% purity but no other modifiers or check boxes. Which I hope is all appropriate.

Howard

[Logic]

I am considering injecting epitalon.
How would I go about preparing Epitalon from Sciwalk for injection and what dosage and schedule should be followed?

[mikey]

You need to get a .02 micron filter syringe to run it through to make sure you don't inject any bugs.
A Whatman Anotop 25 Plus 0.02 um would do.

[niner]

I am considering injecting epitalon.
How would I go about preparing Epitalon from Sciwalk for injection and what dosage and schedule should be followed?

My primary advice is "don't". Bugs can be filtered out, but you'd still want to know what small molecules were in there besides the tetrapeptide. You would want it to be at least reasonably isotonic. Do you have the training and equipment to do injections properly? Are you thinking i.v., i.m., or s.q? In principle, epitalon could be injected, but I don't recommend it.

[Logic]

My primary advice is "don't". Bugs can be filtered out, but you'd still want to know what small molecules were in there besides the tetrapeptide. You would want it to be at least reasonably isotonic. Do you have the training and equipment to do injections properly? Are you thinking i.v., i.m., or s.q? In principle, epitalon could be injected, but I don't recommend it.

From this
http://www.longecity...dpost__p__14411
is seems that approximately 30-40 microg/kg subcutaneously injected on 5 consecutive days every month with normal saline solution may be a good starting point.

Wouldnt the small molecules in there besides the tetrapeptide also be adsorbed by the other means of administration anyway?

[sciwalk]

I am considering injecting epitalon.
How would I go about preparing Epitalon from Sciwalk for injection and what dosage and schedule should be followed?

As I had stated previously, I have tried this, and a couple of others have also. I did it for a little over a month but I switched back to oral and unless you are very will versed in taking Sub-q injections, I would also advise against it. The AGAG is >98% purity and the vial that it comes in can be used for loading syringes but you have a lot of other things to worry about from getting a supply of syringes to making sure that everything is clean. It is just a lot of hassle and things to concern about when in reality, the AGAG is only a 4mer tetrapeptide that can pass through the membrane under your tongue really easily so there just is no good reason to take it Sub-q.

If, on the other hand, you are going to try this any how, I will give you these suggestions:

1. Mix with bacteriostatic water.
2. Load your syringes with the amount you will take per injection, put the cap back on the needles, put inside a ziplock bag and put the bag inside of a lock tight tupperware and put that into the freezer.
3. Make sure to wipe the location where you will take the injection with a disinfectant wipe and then let it dry before the injection.

In this way you can just take out 1 syringe at a time for use, wait about 5 minutes for it to completely thaw before use, and the rest will remain in the freezer (Freezer, not fridge like would normally be the case if just mixing for oral use in the vial).

But, I would once again like to stress the point that this really is not necessary, in my view.

[niner]

Wouldnt the small molecules in there besides the tetrapeptide also be adsorbed by the other means of administration anyway?

If taken orally, (as opposed to sublingually) they would first have to get past a lot of xenobiotic defenses in the gut, which contains a lot of enzymes for that purpose, as well as efflux pumps designed to pump certain compounds back into the gut lumen. They'd also be diluted and exposed to various hydrolases and acid in the stomach. By the sublingual route, there would be dilution, exposure to saliva enzymes, and any compounds that got in would have to be capable of diffusion through the gum tissues. Probably the majority of the sublingual dose winds up being an oral dose anyway.

If the tetrapeptide solution was prepared in such a way that it was sterile and appropriate for injection, and you have the right kind of needle and know how to do it (sub-q is easy), then yeah, this would undoubtedly work. Would it be substantially better than Hugo's method? If it let you get by with an order of magnitude less drug, then it would at least be cheaper, although it sounds like the prices are falling, which changes that equation.

[sciwalk]

Wouldnt the small molecules in there besides the tetrapeptide also be adsorbed by the other means of administration anyway?

If taken orally, (as opposed to sublingually) they would first have............

Sorry, I did not mean orally, I meant Sublingual.

[niner]

Sorry, I did not mean orally, I meant Sublingual.

Oh, no problem. Your post showed up while I was editing mine, and I didn't even see it until now. I knew you were using it sublingually though, which I agree with you seems like a fine way to do it.

[mikey]

Hi, Mikey. It's not a Genscript stock product. It's a custom synthesis product. By menu, you can get to it by navigating: Services, Peptide Services, Peptide Synthesis, the clicking on "Secure Instant Online Quotation". Or try this URL which I sleuth off the browser after navigating their menus: https://www.genscrip...eptide_chemical

When you get to the form, enter the sequence in this format in the peptide sequence field and validate it: {ALA}{GLU}{ASP}{GLY}

I also typed in "Epithalon" in the name field, selected 1 vial, 1000 mg quantity, and >98% purity but no other modifiers or check boxes. Which I hope is all appropriate.

Howard

Thanks, Howard, but I'm not sure that I'm going to continue taking it. One reason I am trying it is because of the report of it lowering blood pressure.

It hasn't seemed to have had any effect on mine - after several weeks - and I don't really notice anything else, like better sleep and some of the other benefits I've read people experiencing.

[mikela]

Should AGAG be cycled similarly to C60 or maintained at a steady dose rate?

[Logic]

thx Sciwalk & Niner.

I need to think on this. If its as effective sublingually; it becomes a question of cost. It does look cheaper
@ 30-40 microg/kg X 112kg = 3360 to 4480 microgram (µg or mcg)
= 0.004g X 5 days per month
=0.02 grams per month.

It would help a lot if I knew someone in the nursing/ doctoring field.

[AdamI]

Should AGAG be cycled similarly to C60 or maintained at a steady dose rate?

I think at least one is on a cycle with AGAG. Personally I take it every day for a couple of months then I have been off it for a mont or two and then start up again...
I think steady dose is the best

[sciwalk]

I just wanted to mention again, hate to beat a dead horse, but, WATER-WATER-WATER-WATER. Anyone trialing AGAG, or anything for that matter, always stay hydrated. Even if you are not trialing anything, stay hydrated. Your intestines will love you, your skin will love you, your kidneys will love you, well you get the picture. I personally drink 3 liters a day and anytime that I forget some, I can tell the next morning or even in the evening of the same day.

[zorba990]

I just wanted to mention again, hate to beat a dead horse, but, WATER-WATER-WATER-WATER. Anyone trialing AGAG, or anything for that matter, always stay hydrated. Even if you are not trialing anything, stay hydrated. Your intestines will love you, your skin will love you, your kidneys will love you, well you get the picture. I personally drink 3 liters a day and anytime that I forget some, I can tell the next morning or even in the evening of the same day.

Yes! You can also use hot water in the winter. An interesting book:
http://www.amazon.co...r/dp/0962994251

Edited by zorba990, 07 January 2013 - 07:06 PM.

[mikey]

I just wanted to mention again, hate to beat a dead horse, but, WATER-WATER-WATER-WATER. Anyone trialing AGAG, or anything for that matter, always stay hydrated. Even if you are not trialing anything, stay hydrated. Your intestines will love you, your skin will love you, your kidneys will love you, well you get the picture. I personally drink 3 liters a day and anytime that I forget some, I can tell the next morning or even in the evening of the same day.

Yes! You can also use hot water in the winter. An interesting book:
http://www.amazon.co...r/dp/0962994251

And consider adding "Ultimate Willard Water" to your water so that it works better.

Check it out on YOUTUBE -

[James Phillip Turpin]

Interesting information. I hadn't heard of Epitalon until I saw this thread. I know this study was already mentioned, but it gives me an idea. Just to quote the abstract, "The results of this study show that treatment with Epitalon did not influence food consumption, body weight or mean life span of mice. However, it slowed down the age-related switching-off of estrous function and decreased the frequency of chromosome aberrations in bone marrow cells (by 17.1%, P<0.05). It also increased by 13.3% the life span of the last 10% of the survivors (P<0.01) and by 12.3% the maximum life span in comparison with the control group."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/14501183
I'm thinking that if this was combined with C60/EVOO, perhaps both used episodically, you might make the 10% of survivors mark (or whatever human analog there might be) just from the C60/EVOO episodic dosing, thus getting the full bennefit of the Epitalon treatment.
I'm thinking of perhaps combining Epitalon with this cocktail of telomerase supplements (plus vitamin D):
http://www.terratern...rd/616/155.aspx
and also Astragaloside IV and Cycloastragenol, alternating with Resveritol. I figure that by using cyclic or even episodic methods and changing up the telomere reverse transcriptase stimulators, I might increase effectiveness and lower the financial cost at the same time. My tentative goal is to live long enough, in good health, that I, as I exist now, cease to exist from memory overwriting rather than physical death - however long that takes. If I can still remember my childhood, I haven't lived long enough yet.

[Logic]

Interesting information. I hadn't heard of Epitalon until I saw this thread. I know this study was already mentioned, but it gives me an idea. Just to quote the abstract, "The results of this study show that treatment with Epitalon did not influence food consumption, body weight or mean life span of mice. However, it slowed down the age-related switching-off of estrous function and decreased the frequency of chromosome aberrations in bone marrow cells (by 17.1%, P<0.05). It also increased by 13.3% the life span of the last 10% of the survivors (P<0.01) and by 12.3% the maximum life span in comparison with the control group."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/14501183
I'm thinking that if this was combined with C60/EVOO, perhaps both used episodically, you might make the 10% of survivors mark (or whatever human analog there might be) just from the C60/EVOO episodic dosing, thus getting the full bennefit of the Epitalon treatment.
I'm thinking of perhaps combining Epitalon with this cocktail of telomerase supplements (plus vitamin D):
http://www.terratern...rd/616/155.aspx
and also Astragaloside IV and Cycloastragenol, alternating with Resveritol. I figure that by using cyclic or even episodic methods and changing up the telomere reverse transcriptase stimulators, I might increase effectiveness and lower the financial cost at the same time. My tentative goal is to live long enough, in good health, that I, as I exist now, cease to exist from memory overwriting rather than physical death - however long that takes. If I can still remember my childhood, I haven't lived long enough yet.

Welcome to the club James.

http://www.longecity...60oo-log-logic/

and thx for the link; interisting studies there.

Edited by Logic, 10 January 2013 - 07:58 AM.

[hav]

Interesting information. I hadn't heard of Epitalon until I saw this thread. I know this study was already mentioned, but it gives me an idea. Just to quote the abstract, "The results of this study show that treatment with Epitalon did not influence food consumption, body weight or mean life span of mice. However, it slowed down the age-related switching-off of estrous function and decreased the frequency of chromosome aberrations in bone marrow cells (by 17.1%, P<0.05). It also increased by 13.3% the life span of the last 10% of the survivors (P<0.01) and by 12.3% the maximum life span in comparison with the control group."
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/14501183

I find the lack of increased food consumption in the study interesting... because I and a number of other users here noticed an increase in appetite along with what seems like a rise in workout performance resulting in no net weight gain. I wonder if the difference might be a gender thing. The mice in this study were all female. Just asked my wife what her reaction is and she thinks she had the urge to eat a little more when taking it.

I'm thinking that if this was combined with C60/EVOO, perhaps both used episodically, you might make the 10% of survivors mark (or whatever human analog there might be) just from the C60/EVOO episodic dosing, thus getting the full bennefit of the Epitalon treatment.
I'm thinking of perhaps combining Epitalon with this cocktail of telomerase supplements (plus vitamin D):
http://www.terratern...rd/616/155.aspx
and also Astragaloside IV and Cycloastragenol, alternating with Resveritol. I figure that by using cyclic or even episodic methods and changing up the telomere reverse transcriptase stimulators, I might increase effectiveness and lower the financial cost at the same time. My tentative goal is to live long enough, in good health, that I, as I exist now, cease to exist from memory overwriting rather than physical death - however long that takes. If I can still remember my childhood, I haven't lived long enough yet.

That's the approach I'm going with. Cycling astragalus extract together with epithalon weekly. WIth resveratrol and other antioxidants in the off week. Been taking c60/oo once a week but I'm thinking of changing it to once every 2 weeks synched to the antioxidant week. But if the c60 effect lasts allot longer than 2 weeks, which I think it does, not sure if that really counts as cycling that. But my motivation is merely to reduce my triglyceride intake.

It seems that many of the ingredients in the Terraternal telomere support mix are telomere protectors with antioxidant qualities. I see that Terraternal has 2 of the ingredients classified as telomerase activators (and 1 as both), but I'm not sure that any in vivo study has confirmed that. In any event, I take most of them in my antioxidant stack. Ginkgo I take all the time but for a different purpose... cognitive health.

I don't take Tocotrienol, myself. Although they demonstrated its antioxidant qualities rather nicely, not sure if they really proved it was a telomerase activator. In any event, its toxicity at higher dosages is troubling.

Howard

Edited by hav, 12 January 2013 - 07:51 PM.

[mikey]

I don't take Tocotrienol, myself. Although they demonstrated its antioxidant qualities rather nicely, not sure if they really proved it was a telomerase activator. In any event, its toxicity at higher dosages is troubling.

Howard

Where do you see data showing tocotrienols are toxic and at what dosages?
Thank you.

[Kevnzworld]

I don't take Tocotrienol, myself. Although they demonstrated its antioxidant qualities rather nicely, not sure if they really proved it was a telomerase activator. In any event, its toxicity at higher dosages is troubling.

Howard

Where do you see data showing tocotrienols are toxic and at what dosages?

Thank you.

I haven't found anything that indicates tocotrionol toxicity at doses we are talking about. ( < 1200mg ). I would be interested to see it if it exists.
Quote:
" evidence for toxicity of a specific form of tocopherol in excess may not be used to conclude that high-dosage "vitamin E" supplementation may increase all-cause mortality. Such conclusion incorrectly implies that tocotrienols are toxic as well under conditions where tocotrienols were not even considered."
http://www.mendeley....-tocopherols-2/

[mikey]

Well, any statement about tocotrienols being toxic needs solid support - and a clear notation of what dosage we are talking about

The doses that tocotrienols in Tocomin SupraBio increased hair count on my head and then later allowed a return of some color in my hair amount to only a few hundred millgrams a day, certainly nowhere near any dosage of concern.

[hav]

Well, any statement about tocotrienols being toxic needs solid support - and a clear notation of what dosage we are talking about

The doses that tocotrienols in Tocomin SupraBio increased hair count on my head and then later allowed a return of some color in my hair amount to only a few hundred millgrams a day, certainly nowhere near any dosage of concern.

Sorry I left mention of the source out, It was buried in one of the research papers cited on the Terraternal page that James linked. They were discussing the survival of fiboblast cells taken from human donors in 3 different ages groups following in vitro treatment at varying concentrations with γ-tocotrienol. As with most in vitro evidence, its probably unlikely that their test-tube concentrations can achieved anywhere inside a human body for very long but I suppose it might be considered a possible indicator of long term usage...

γ-Tocotrienol prevents oxidative stress-induced telomere shortening in human fibroblasts derived from different aged individuals

The data showed that at low concentration, γ-tocotrienol increased the number of viable cell. At γ-tocotrienol concentration of 80 µM the number of cell viable is maximum for young fibroblasts and 40 µM for middle and old fibroblasts. However, high concentration of γ-tocotrienol is cytotoxic.

Also, Figure #2 (attached) in the same paper graphs the cell survival rate at different concentrations. Here's the graph description:

Cytotoxic effects of γ-tocotrienol on fibroblast cell lines as assessed by MTS assay. Percent MTS reduction corresponds to the viable cell number. Fibroblasts were incubated with increasing concentrations of γ-tocotrienol for 24 hours at 37°C. Incubation with γ-tocotrienol caused a significant increase in the number of cell viable. The percentage of the viable cell is highest at γ-tocotrienol concentration of 80 µM for fibroblast cells derived from young (YF) age human and 40 µM for fibroblast cells derived from middle (MF) and old (OF) age humans. Cell viability decreased by 50% (IC₅₀) with γ-tocotrienol incubation at 230 µM, 280 µM and 110 µM for fibroblast cells derived from young, middle and old age humans respectively. Almost all cells were dead at γ-tocotrienol more than 500 µM for fibroblast cells derived from young and middle age humans and 150 µM for fibroblast cells derived from old age human. ^aDenotes p < 0.05 compared to fibroblast cells derived from young age human, ^bp < 0.05 compared to fibroblast cells derived from middle age human. Data is presented as means ± SD, n = 3.

Howard

Attached Thumbnails

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Edited by hav, 17 January 2013 - 11:34 PM.

[niner]

The data showed that at low concentration, γ-tocotrienol increased the number of viable cell. At γ-tocotrienol concentration of 80 µM the number of cell viable is maximum for young fibroblasts and 40 µM for middle and old fibroblasts. However, high concentration of γ-tocotrienol is cytotoxic.

Well, this is just the usual U-shaped curve. This paper basically says γ-tocotrienol is good for you at reasonable doses, and bad at a massive overdose. When they say "high concentration", they really mean it, like taking tens of grams orally.

[James Phillip Turpin]

OK, I figured out how to (supposedly) buy AGAG (although I haven't yet purchased it), and I gather that if one doesn't like using needles, sublingual is the way to go - and that after openning a vial I will want to mix it with 95% sterile water, 5% ethanol solution, keeping track of how many mg per mL. I already have a magnetic stirrer. Is that necessary, or does this stuff readily dissolve?

Could anybody suggest a dosage of AGAG roughly equivalent to 40 mg Astragaloside IV in terms of some effect or another (e.g. telomerase activation, longevity increase, etc)?

Failing that, what would be a good serving size of AGAG for a longevity experiment on a 100 kg male primate?

Failing that, what would be a good serving size of AGAG for a longevity experiment on a 1 kg rat? (I'm familiar with non-linear scaling, so I would guess the 100 kg ape should get about 30 times the dose as a 1 kg rat.)


Thanks ahead of time for your help.