1755 replies to this topic

[hav]

...
I would like to know from the experienced people on here about others who are trialing both epitalon+c60 and there recommendations?
Like taking both daily and the dosage of both for a female 60kg? Also about giving a break of one and why? How long to use both together? Like I said I have been trying to follow the posts on here and what they are doing but there's alot of different info...So just thought I'd ask? Especially if your girlfriend's or wife's have been taking it and their benefits. Dosages they are on for success and I know everyone is different...
...

My wife and I take them both but not together. Mainly because we've always cycled our antioxidants and telomerase activators on alternate weeks. Back in the early days of this thread, before it was split off, a pretty well informed product vendor recommended cycling their astragalus-based telomerase activation product to avoid it diminishing in effect over time as the body adjusted to and resisted the activation. There was also some thought at the time that antioxidants might be telomerase inhibitors... though I don't think that idea is as widely accepted anymore. But there seems to be a growing belief that cycling antioxidants might be a good idea anyway, if only to not always resist natural oxidation processes that might be beneficial. Anyway, cycling both antioxidants and possible telomerase activators like epithalon and astragalus does cut the cost of taking each in half...

The only negative I've noticed taking c60/oo is that my triglyceride levels are up a slight bit. Probably due to the olive oil. But my levels were just below borderline high to start with, in spite of my being on statin medication. My wife has not had that or any other issue.

Howard

[Jule]

Thanks so much Howard for your really informative information. That now makes sense the cycling the supplements. I need to work out my own system for doing this and do a bit more research on the topic but I suppose it's all trial and error process of what works for you..
Can I ask your wife's dosage of C60 and has it been the same from the beginning or has been reduced now....How long have you both been on it.... Also have you had any improvement with eyesight? My most desired goal is to improve my eyesight whereby once again I don't need reading glasses. Or even if you know of any other supplements with regard helping eyesight? Most appreciated...

Thanks again for replying, Jule

[Authentic]

My reaction to Epitalon was too strong for me to continue daily. I kept weakening the dosage but found that I had to use such a weak dose that I wasn't sure if it was worth it. The side effect was truly wild dreams, waking me up several times each night. Then during the daytime I felt very fuzzy and out of it.

I was using Epitalon subcutaneous which is a sure-fire way to dose. My concern about sub-lingual is perhaps a mistaken belief that when you Sub-lingual a portion gets aborted, and a portion goes into your stomach. If you "drool" a bit too much one day you might weaken the dose or miss-proportion it, or maybe I'm completely wrong. Also with subQ I was able to use a LOT less than oral, which would make my Epitalon last for a year+.

So I stopped Epitalon for now, waited a couple days and moved on to C60. Interestingly C60 gives me a similar reaction but not as strong. I'm on day 4 of C60 and am having incredibly vivid dreams and wake a couple times each night. The vivid-dream effect and subsequent fuzziness is around 60% weaker than Epitalon (which is a good thing). I would blame myself and say it must just be me but I also give C60 to my dog, and now she is having dreams where she's barking and whining in her sleep. That hasn't happened with her before.

My C60 cycle is going to be 1 week on and then 1 week off. In the off-week I will try Epitalon again. I am hoping that Epitalon will de-calcify the Pineal gland like GHRH and GHRP do to the Pituitary gland.

Edited by Authentic, 26 August 2013 - 12:21 AM.

[solarfingers]

My reaction to Epitalon was too strong for me to continue daily. I kept weakening the dosage but found that I had to use such a weak dose that I wasn't sure if it was worth it. The side effect was truly wild dreams, waking me up several times each night. Then during the daytime I felt very fuzzy and out of it.

I was using Epitalon subcutaneous which is a sure-fire way to dose. My concern about sub-lingual is perhaps a mistaken belief that when you Sub-lingual a portion gets aborted, and a portion goes into your stomach. If you "drool" a bit too much one day you might weaken the dose or miss-proportion it, or maybe I'm completely wrong. Also with subQ I was able to use a LOT less than oral, which would make my Epitalon last for a year+.

So I stopped Epitalon for now, waited a couple days and moved on to C60. Interestingly C60 gives me a similar reaction but not as strong. I'm on day 4 of C60 and am having incredibly vivid dreams and wake a couple times each night. The vivid-dream effect and subsequent fuzziness is around 60% weaker than Epitalon (which is a good thing). I would blame myself and say it must just be me but I also give C60 to my dog, and now she is having dreams where she's barking and whining in her sleep. That hasn't happened with her before.

My C60 cycle is going to be 1 week on and then 1 week off. In the off-week I will try Epitalon again. I am hoping that Epitalon will de-calcify the Pineal gland like GHRH and GHRP do to the Pituitary gland.

You're sure allot braver than I. No way could I shoot myself up with Epitalon. I've never heard of anyone having vivid dreams from c60. I only take c60 once every two weeks and it's a pretty large dosage and I've never had any dreams. I did start dreaming more on my small dosage of Epitalion but nothing to interrupt my sleep. Did you experience the dreams up to the time you started c60?

Thanks...

[pleb]

Thanks so much Howard for your really informative information. That now makes sense the cycling the supplements. I need to work out my own system for doing this and do a bit more research on the topic but I suppose it's all trial and error process of what works for you..
Can I ask your wife's dosage of C60 and has it been the same from the beginning or has been reduced now....How long have you both been on it.... Also have you had any improvement with eyesight? My most desired goal is to improve my eyesight whereby once again I don't need reading glasses. Or even if you know of any other supplements with regard helping eyesight? Most appreciated...

Thanks again for replying, Jule

I've been on C60 for almost 12 months now and haven't found any improvement with my sight, also Epitalon for 3 months last year and no difference regarding vision,,nor any adverse reactions from taking both at that time,

but prior to that i took resveratrol for a month and did notice quite an improvement i only stopped as at that time there was some discussion and references that it was a down regulator of telomerase,

john,

[niner]

My most desired goal is to improve my eyesight whereby once again I don't need reading glasses. Or even if you know of any other supplements with regard helping eyesight? Most appreciated...

The only supplement that I've heard any consistent reports on as far as eyesight improvement goes is TA-65. Some people have actually reported that they needed to drop back a notch or two in the strength of their eyeglass prescription. Maybe acetyl carnosine (not acetyl CARNITINE) would help if you have the beginnings of cataracts, but that's unlikely given your (apparent) age. TA-65 isn't cheap and you'd probably need a pretty healthy dose.

[Authentic]

I'll share everything I can think of in the hopes someone might have a theory that fits the circumstance.

I've been using GHRH/GHRP injections nightly for about 18 months straight. I decided to quit them for 30 days just to cycle. When I stopped, I experienced a similar very disrupted sleep pattern with vivid dreams (but nothing like when I was on Epitalon). It went away slowly over about a week until I had normalized. After 30 days I first started with just Epitalon and experienced the wild vivid dreams and fuzzy daytimes. I then stopped Epitalon (I was losing too many days to the fog), and everything went back to normal the following night. Then, I re-started the GHRH/GHRP nightly injections in small doses. I'm still using 1/2 of the normal dose on those because I don't know how they will interact with Epitalon or C60.

It really could be that the GHRH/GHRP is causing an interaction with C60 or my prior use of these peptides caused the effect with Epitalon. The normal effects of my peptide combo is that I sleep like a log, straight through. My close friend that had a sleep disorder was "cured" by using Ipamorelin with CJC1295 every night at bedtime. Her life was vastly improved by these peptides.

Just to be clear, I am using nightly small dose GHRH/GHRP injections. I take C60 in the morning at low dose; 1.0 mg/day. I nap in the afternoon and also have abnormally vivid dreams while napping.

[JASOG888]

I'll share everything I can think of in the hopes someone might have a theory that fits the circumstance.

I've been using GHRH/GHRP injections nightly for about 18 months straight. I decided to quit them for 30 days just to cycle. When I stopped, I experienced a similar very disrupted sleep pattern with vivid dreams (but nothing like when I was on Epitalon). It went away slowly over about a week until I had normalized. After 30 days I first started with just Epitalon and experienced the wild vivid dreams and fuzzy daytimes. I then stopped Epitalon (I was losing too many days to the fog), and everything went back to normal the following night. Then, I re-started the GHRH/GHRP nightly injections in small doses. I'm still using 1/2 of the normal dose on those because I don't know how they will interact with Epitalon or C60.

It really could be that the GHRH/GHRP is causing an interaction with C60 or my prior use of these peptides caused the effect with Epitalon. The normal effects of my peptide combo is that I sleep like a log, straight through. My close friend that had a sleep disorder was "cured" by using Ipamorelin with CJC1295 every night at bedtime. Her life was vastly improved by these peptides.

Just to be clear, I am using nightly small dose GHRH/GHRP injections. I take C60 in the morning at low dose; 1.0 mg/day. I nap in the afternoon and also have abnormally vivid dreams while napping.

Are you taking any melatonin?

[Authentic]

Yes, I've been taking a 5mg sublingual melatonin for ten years at bedtime.

[JASOG888]

Melatonin tends to give me intense dreams. Maybe you have some potentiation happening.

[Authentic]

I'll try 2.5mg of Melatonin tonight instead of 5mg. Thank you for that Jasog888

[hav]

...
Can I ask your wife's dosage of C60 and has it been the same from the beginning or has been reduced now....How long have you both been on it.... Also have you had any improvement with eyesight? My most desired goal is to improve my eyesight whereby once again I don't need reading glasses.

We take a jigger that measures 45 ml of c60/oo mixed at .8 mg/ml for 36 mg of c60 once every 2 weeks. Probably one of the higher doses around here. Started with a loading period of taking it every day of on-weeks over a 6-week period in May 2012. Might go to once a month one of these days.

I've noticed an eyesight improvement but my wife has not. But my improvement began before starting c60. We were doing our resveratrol/astragalus cycling about a year and a half before that when it started. I'm approaching the end of my 2nd year on epithalon so that might have played a role too. But my doctor said its not unusual for vision to improve in near sighted persons as they age... the tendency as you age being towards far sightedness. I think I had a one-step improvement in the near sighted part of the eyeglass lens before starting c60 or epithalon followed by a 2-step improvement in June of 2012. But I don't think the reading glass, lower portion of my eyeglass lens has changed. I'll probably go for new glasses again next summer which should be interesting.

Also, had to get retested at DMV after I moved back East about six months ago and the peripheral vision part of the test was allot more trivial to pass than I previously recall it ever being. I don't think peripheral vision is supposed to improve as you age so there might be something there. I was well along on c60 at that point. Developed a number of floaters in one eye about 10 years ago and there's been no change in that.

The only eye-related supplements I take are lutein and C... based on ingredients I liked in the AREDS2 formulation recommended to me by my opthamologist after my dad was diagnosed with macular degeneration.

Howard

Edited by hav, 26 August 2013 - 05:24 AM.

[pleb]

i have MD and i'm registered partially sighted, i saw the resveratrol improvement after reading an article by a biochemist who was touting a specific brand as being able to improve MD although the consensus was that he was being paid by that particular company, i obtained the normal cheap Resveratrol at that time,
i also mentioned the improvement to Logic in a PM he also posts on here,

another article in the news a couple of years ago was a Biochemist who researched his own cure after almost going blind from MD it was a hormone found in the petals of the common marigold flower, he spent quite a lot of money having these grown on a farm in china and then the extract from that purified there was a mention at that time that it cost a lot of money he sold his house to pay for the growing and extraction of the particular peptide,? i didn't bother going into that at the time as the cost was way out of my price range,
but like many things in the news i haven't been able to find any reference since to this online, but i did find the following which may help

,,http://www.maculardegenerationguide.co.uk/marigold-extract-for-macular-degeneration/

Edited by pleb, 26 August 2013 - 08:33 AM.

[blood]

i have MD and i'm registered partially sighted, i saw the resveratrol improvement... another article in the news a couple of years ago was a Biochemist who researched his own cure after almost going blind from MD it was a hormone found in the petals of the common marigold flower

I recall a few studies indicating a promising role for melatonin (3 mg/day) in stopping progression of macular degeneration.

I suppose most people on this forum would be taking melatonin?

[pleb]

I'm not, although i will look into this much more now, as from everything i had been told by my MD and the consultant there was nothing that would help although that was about 20 years ago,when it was first diagnosed, at that time i was told the particular form i had wouldn't get better but also wouldn't get worse, as it was due to an accident where the supply of blood to the eyes was cut off for a time,

[hav]

My reaction to Epitalon was too strong for me to continue daily. I kept weakening the dosage but found that I had to use such a weak dose that I wasn't sure if it was worth it. The side effect was truly wild dreams, waking me up several times each night. Then during the daytime I felt very fuzzy and out of it.

I was using Epitalon subcutaneous which is a sure-fire way to dose. My concern about sub-lingual is perhaps a mistaken belief that when you Sub-lingual a portion gets aborted, and a portion goes into your stomach. If you "drool" a bit too much one day you might weaken the dose or miss-proportion it, or maybe I'm completely wrong. Also with subQ I was able to use a LOT less than oral, which would make my Epitalon last for a year+.

So I stopped Epitalon for now, waited a couple days and moved on to C60. Interestingly C60 gives me a similar reaction but not as strong. I'm on day 4 of C60 and am having incredibly vivid dreams and wake a couple times each night. The vivid-dream effect and subsequent fuzziness is around 60% weaker than Epitalon (which is a good thing). I would blame myself and say it must just be me but I also give C60 to my dog, and now she is having dreams where she's barking and whining in her sleep. That hasn't happened with her before.

My C60 cycle is going to be 1 week on and then 1 week off. In the off-week I will try Epitalon again. I am hoping that Epitalon will de-calcify the Pineal gland like GHRH and GHRP do to the Pituitary gland.

Curious what subcutaneous doses you tried. I get mild vivid dreaming when I take 5 mg sub-lingual but rarely anything so real I forget I'm asleep.

Also, does your epithalon source supply it the way other peptides intended for injection are supplied... lyophilized or vacuum freeze dried in a little rubber stoppered metal capped bottle? That form usually looks a little fluffed up rather than as crystals but tends to melt down a bit if it encounters any moist air.

Howard

Edited by hav, 26 August 2013 - 01:48 PM.

[Authentic]

Hi Howard,

I weigh 70kg. The Epitalon is definitely the proper lyophilized type prepared for injection. I posted a photo earlier of one of my vials (reposted below).

I reconstituted the 5mg Epitalon using 1cc of Bac water for injection, following normal sterile procedures. I've tried the following doses

0.1cc Felt so tired it was as if I had taken a sleeping pill - sides lasted a full day
0.05cc Still felt incredibly tired 20 minutes after injection and long fuzzy sides
0.02cc More tolerable but still had incredibly vivid dreams etc..
0.01cc This is about all I can handle - still have very vivid dreams and next day feel somewhat out of it but nowhere near the amount on the higher doses.

On a separate note, still working with the C60 and took 2.5mg instead of 5mg melatonin last night. Dreams were not as vivid but still quite wild. I also slept somewhat better. I'm going to stick with cutting back on the melatonin for a while to see how that goes. I won't be using the Epitalon until 7 days of C60 is over.

Attached Thumbnails

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[solarfingers]

i have MD and i'm registered partially sighted, i saw the resveratrol improvement... another article in the news a couple of years ago was a Biochemist who researched his own cure after almost going blind from MD it was a hormone found in the petals of the common marigold flower

I recall a few studies indicating a promising role for melatonin (3 mg/day) in stopping progression of macular degeneration.

I suppose most people on this forum would be taking melatonin?

I sure am glad I take it nitely before sleep...

[hav]

I reconstituted the 5mg Epitalon using 1cc of Bac water for injection, following normal sterile procedures. I've tried the following doses

0.1cc Felt so tired it was as if I had taken a sleeping pill - sides lasted a full day
0.05cc Still felt incredibly tired 20 minutes after injection and long fuzzy sides
0.02cc More tolerable but still had incredibly vivid dreams etc..
0.01cc This is about all I can handle - still have very vivid dreams and next day feel somewhat out of it but nowhere near the amount on the higher doses.

Wow, sounds like subq might have around 200x to 500x the effect. Unless you're more susceptible to the vivid dreaming because of other things you take like the melatonin. Or it could just be your nature... my wife reports no increase in her vivid dreaming because she says she's always gotten them all the time.

At those rates, you might be hard pressed to use up the mixed epithalon before it degrades.

Howard

[Dreamer]

Wow, sounds like subq might have around 200x to 500x the effect. Unless you're more susceptible to the vivid dreaming because of other things you take like the melatonin. Or it could just be your nature... my wife reports no increase in her vivid dreaming because she says she's always gotten them all the time.

At those rates, you might be hard pressed to use up the mixed epithalon before it degrades.

Howard

In all the reading and research I have done on Epitalon, I have never heard of such an effect(s), especially at such low doses, sub q or sub l. I would be checking the quality of the peptide for purity, conformance and any contamination.

Also, I have never heard of such an increase in effect between sub q and sub l. Something is fishy, IMHO.

[Authentic]

I already tested the peptide and it's over 99% pure and definitely is Epitalon. It could just be my reaction to it and also keep in mind there are zero studies on Epitalon administered sublingual. It could be that most of it doesn't pass through or gets broken down by saliva (just guessing?)

[Authentic]

I just spent some time messaging with some people on a different forum and reading many posts about Sublingual delivery of peptides. In this case we were talking about GHRH and GHRP peptides. In their experience sublingual simply didn't work for these peptides, it would not cross the membrane. "Sublingual won't work, CJC-1295 is a polypeptide consisting of 29 amino acids*) and, therefore, won't cross any membrane. That's the reason why injection is the only way to go here." Epitalon is a much smaller chain peptide but has anyone done any research to see how much of it actually crosses the membrane when administered sublingual or oral? I'd really like to understand it better.

Also, I think Dreamer is saying there are other people who have injected it subcutaneous and not had any of the side effects that I experienced. Could you please post a couple links to their posts so that I can read up. It really could just be my reaction, or it could be that subcutaneous is much much stronger than sublingual. I'd like to find out more please help and thanks!

[Jule]

Just a quick update and thank you for the replies, such a informative interesting forum!

I have just changed my epitalon from morning rushed sublingual all 12 drops under tongue before racing around with my day. Had no effect at all throughout day. Changed to evenings an hour or two before sleep and did slower more careful sublingual of only 4 drops at a time... Well must say had the best sleep I have had in a long time...Slept really well, usually wake with shoulder pain, with thirst or to go to the loo but nothing....No vivid dreams from what I can remember and feel really refreshed this morning...
So worth reading this forum and learn!

I am also trying resveratrol currently, only been 10 days so haven't noticed anything yet. I would think for eyesight improvement will happen over many months...

[Dreamer]

We both take our melatonin and peptide drops immediately before bedtime. Fall asleep quickly and sleep well. Best in years.

That has to be good for the body in rebuilding things and I need that for sure.

In addition, I do not get the saliva formation with fewer drops.

I've also noticed better results when taking fewer drops sublingually than all at once.

How much peptide in your 12 drops, Jule?

Edited by Dreamer, 27 August 2013 - 12:56 AM.

[hav]

12 drops sounds like allot not to swallow. I do my 5 mg in 2 drops.

Howard

[hav]

I just spent some time messaging with some people on a different forum and reading many posts about Sublingual delivery of peptides. In this case we were talking about GHRH and GHRP peptides. In their experience sublingual simply didn't work for these peptides, it would not cross the membrane. "Sublingual won't work, CJC-1295 is a polypeptide consisting of 29 amino acids*) and, therefore, won't cross any membrane. That's the reason why injection is the only way to go here." Epitalon is a much smaller chain peptide but has anyone done any research to see how much of it actually crosses the membrane when administered sublingual or oral? I'd really like to understand it better.

Also, I think Dreamer is saying there are other people who have injected it subcutaneous and not had any of the side effects that I experienced. Could you please post a couple links to their posts so that I can read up. It really could just be my reaction, or it could be that subcutaneous is much much stronger than sublingual. I'd like to find out more please help and thanks!

Well here's come comparative numbers on peptide length and size:

epithalon: 4 aa, 390 da
ghrp-2: 6 aa, 747 da
ghrp-6 H55: 6 aa, 818 da
ghrp-6 H56: 6 aa, 873 da
ghrelin (natural GHRP): 28 aa, 3,314 da
cjc-1295: 29 aa, 3,367 da
cjc-1296 dac: 30 aa, 3,647 da
ghrh: 44 aa, 12,447 da

Fwiw, my wife gave her 1st report this morning of a major dream effect after a 5 mg sub-l epithalon dose last night which was our 1st dose this week after a week off. But I cooked a dinner last night which might have bumped up oral absorption: 10 mg of piperine with a dash of naga bhut jolokia in a glutino breading mix of each turkey cutlet serving previously marinated with Walker's Wood jamacian jerk spice. Epithalon dosage was about 3 hours after dinner.

Howard

[Jule]

Dreamer,
Just mixed according to instructions on bottle, so 3mg in 12 drops.

I must say a much more heavier sleep last night and very drowsy this morning with it, so I'm going to try deviding it throughout my day to see what happens....Cannot be drowsy for this weekend as have big work event so have to have it sorted before then.

[mikela]

I take 1.5 mg of Epitalon daily (from Sciwalk) and occasionaly experience vivid dreams. Nothing that gives me great consternation. That is in addition to 6 mg of melatonin. I dose C60 every 30 days largely based on some of the assumptions niner has made.

Edited by mikela, 28 August 2013 - 01:14 AM.

[Gurdjieff]

I just spent some time messaging with some people on a different forum and reading many posts about Sublingual delivery of peptides. In this case we were talking about GHRH and GHRP peptides. In their experience sublingual simply didn't work for these peptides, it would not cross the membrane. "Sublingual won't work, CJC-1295 is a polypeptide consisting of 29 amino acids*) and, therefore, won't cross any membrane. That's the reason why injection is the only way to go here." Epitalon is a much smaller chain peptide but has anyone done any research to see how much of it actually crosses the membrane when administered sublingual or oral? I'd really like to understand it better.

Also, I think Dreamer is saying there are other people who have injected it subcutaneous and not had any of the side effects that I experienced. Could you please post a couple links to their posts so that I can read up. It really could just be my reaction, or it could be that subcutaneous is much much stronger than sublingual. I'd like to find out more please help and thanks!

I injected Epitalon subcutaneously for a month using the dosage regime on the Clinical Grade Peptides site (150 mcg twice a day). After a two week break I then commenced taking 3 mg per day of the 'group buy' Epitalon sublingually. I have now been doing this for nearly two weeks. The key short term effects I noted with the subcutaneous injections were smoother and apparently healthier skin on my face, healthier feeling hair (less wispy), and a burst of clarity of mind soon after injection. I didn't pay attention to sleep quality, and didn't get more vivid dreams. With the sublingual approach, the smoother and healthier skin on my face has returned (in the two weeks during which I stopped subcutaneous and started sublingual administration, it returned to 'normal'), my hair is similarly healthier, but I don't get the burst of mental clarity. Instead, now that I have given attention to the effects on sleep, I have noticed that I feel more tired after taking the sublingual dose (I take it before bed), and sleep more soundly, at least for six or seven hours straight through, which is better than previously). I haven't noticed any effect on dreams. It could be that the burst of mental clarity that followed subcutaneous injection came from the 'mind stilling' effects of the injection ritual, not from the Epitalon.

So the short-term observable qualitative effects seem similar between the injection of 150 mcg twice a day, and 3 mg taken once a day sublingually. But it is impossible to tell accurately from self-observation whether the effects are similar quantitatively. Furthermore, I am not aware of any precise experimental evidence that identifies how much of the sublingual dose actually gets into the blood stream, or any evidence that establishes 3 mg or anything like that as an optimal sublingual dose.

Furthermore, I can't find any precise information on this site or anywhere else about the actual injection regime used by Khavison when administering Epitalon to humans such as members of the Russian Academy of Science. The limited information available seems to suggest that his regime involved injecting Epitalon for only a limited period during any year, and that there may be detrimental side effects if it is used continuously. But I don't really know. So if anyone has any more accurate information about Khavison's original regime, or about any side effects of continuous dosing, it would be greatly appreciated.

[solarfingers]

I have noticed that my Epitalion mix is starting to get small white particulates. Is this clumping due to too high of an alcohol content?