182 replies to this topic

[shadowhawk]

This topic is not about whether God exists or not. That topic is in “Is God Possible?” and “The Theist Atheist debates in the UK.”

If you are a Theist and believe in God, why? What is God like? What are some unanswered questions and problems? What are your religious authorities? Why do you believe your view is best and what if anything, has been its benefits to you? How did you come to believe this way? What is your religious experience?

Treat each other with respect and learn. Have fun.

[F.L.U.]

Whatever one says or writes about God is not God but just one's understanding of this concept which is wrong from the very beginning. It's like trying to write a novel using just one letter or depicting whole universe using one-color paint. Though it would be interesting to know how people understand it.

[F.L.U.]

I found an interesting definition that may be applied to God. It's called energy-plasma:

Energy-Plasma is the state of the Cosmic reality around us, the state of Everything that is at all ranges of all possible variants of Existence for all Forms of Intelligences whose Creativity structures entire Cosmic Creation. Everything in the Universe consists of This United Superintelligent Substance, Which is absolutely synthesized and energy-informationally organized in various ways. It is impossible to particularly define It in any way, either as an Entity (Form), Energy, or Information, because It represents “ALL-IN-ALL” — all the three, and infinitely many other phenomena of which we are completely unaware.
Absolutely EVERYTHING in This Substance is living and Self-Conscious, and is specifically manifested in Energy-Plasma on its own Level of subjective Self-perception. There can be nothing “dead” by definition, because it reflects a certain dynamic state of this Substance’s Intelligence. There is only This Energy, One Whole Energy, which we define as Life in all its innumerable manifestations and stages of development. There is only Energy, Which people call “God”. Everything that we define by the term “infinite multidimensionality” is the structural element of Energy-Plasma that represents simultaneously the incessant, inexhaustible Source and the infinite basis, the Depository of absolutely all Information, all Knowledge, Thoughts, Feelings, Impressions, Conceptions and Experience. Each of Its quality Levels has its own realizational Principles and mechanisms that exactly correspond to the decoding systems of Perception of Forms involved in the dynamics of Creative Activity on these Levels.
Each Level is organized by its own Forms, and, vice versa, psychic and mechanical activities of each type of Forms activate only a very limited (in frequency) Level of Energy-Plasma. Everything in Life is Energy-Plasma. All our Conceptions of Life and God, which we are used to separate From each other due to our ignorance, are formed on the basis of Information that we receive with the help of six sense organs (plus Intuition). But even one million special “organs” of perception will be insufficient to express the true Essence of Energy-Plasma.
Energy-Plasma is Information of different qualities, plus Energy that realizes the Information. Information penetrates absolutely all structures and Time Flows of all types and kinds of Universes. Moreover, Energy-Plasma ALWAYS “was”, “is” and “will be” in the same “quantities and qualities”. Which means that It is absolutely stable and constant in all its vibration manifestations of different qualities. One thing differs from another thing only because there is difference in possibilities and ways of functioning of Self-Consciousness’ wave structures in each Form created by one and the same Energy-Plasma. Energy-Plasma infinitely surpasses all our limited conceptions of Matter.
At any time, It is accessible to each type of Self-Consciousness and can be “individually” and creatively applied in any possible direction of creativity. This is the main and only Universal Element of organization of entire Creation, for all visible and invisible Universes, in their entire infinity and multidimensionality. Speed of light is a very rough parameter to measure the dynamics of deep information processes that are constantly carried out in Energy-Plasma.

[shadowhawk]

Whatever one says or writes about God is not God but just one's understanding of this concept which is wrong from the very beginning. It's like trying to write a novel using just one letter or depicting whole universe using one-color paint. Though it would be interesting to know how people understand it.

How, given what you say, would you know it wasn't about God?

[Googoltarian]

God is like perpetuum mobile.

[shadowhawk]

God is like perpetuum mobile.

It can be a song that never ends.

[F.L.U.]

Here’s an example. You stand with your eyes closed and kick something with your right foot. Can you describe this something as much in detail as you would do it with your eyes open and touching the object with your hands? What I mean is that our system of perception is too limited to describe the immensity of this concept. It’s like trying to explain infinity by showing space between your spread hands. The above quote that defines energy-plasma (or God if you like) seems to me the most laconic explanation of inexplicability of Life or grandeur of the Universe.
All we have to do is to eternally study it and enjoy with all its gradually revealing mysteries.

[shadowhawk]

Here’s an example. You stand with your eyes closed and kick something with your right foot. Can you describe this something as much in detail as you would do it with your eyes open and touching the object with your hands? What I mean is that our system of perception is too limited to describe the immensity of this concept. It’s like trying to explain infinity by showing space between your spread hands. The above quote that defines energy-plasma (or God if you like) seems to me the most laconic explanation of inexplicability of Life or grandeur of the Universe.
All we have to do is to eternally study it and enjoy with all its gradually revealing mysteries.

Excellent point. You, being finite could never understand the infinite. It would be beyond our ability! Your point is true. Could you know you kicked something with your right foot? Could you experience whether it gave way when kicked, or estimate whether it is heavy or not? Would it make a sound as you kicked it? Hollow or solid? Does it sound like it bounced? Suppose you took off the blindfold and still couldn’t see it. Eyes are the wrong organs to sense this infinite, invisible, object? What are you seeing anyway? What is God supposed to look like?

Are your spread hands a part of infinity? Are they someway beyond infinity or within it. While not infinite, are they within it? Can we know part of infinity? If so, what possibilities could this raise? Could you know an infinite God?

[F.L.U.]

So many questions! We perceive things and name them according to our obtained understanding (we were taught to call them so) and to our system of perception. Most people have a very narrow range of "visual" perception and don't "see" anything past this range (that is, the infrared and ultraviolet spectrum). A part of infinity cannot provide you with true information, as it will be false for every next higher level of perception when our understanding and abilities become wider. It's like trying to describe Earth with all its inhabitants and elements by studying only a grain of sand.
I found some interesting facts about the illusion of vision:

"Any “image” perceived by you is modeled in your Self-Consciousness not only on the basis of a photon emission but also on the basis of your existing knowledge and conceptions, using the projections of which the functional elements of the brain reconstruct holographic images in each particular case. We don’t “see” real objects, but automatically reproduce in our Imagination only subjective images diffracted (deformed, distorted) by various functional elements of the brain, not perceiving them really — as a direct display on the retina.
These particularities of our system of Perception are not revealed by ophthalmologists, or they simply don’t understand that “the lens” of the eyes (crystalline lens) project “an image” not onto the sensitive elements of the retina (ends of rods and cones that allegedly form “a photoplate-screen”), but to their reverse side, and that signals DON’T pass from them to the brain via the optic nerve (a bundle of nerve fibers, the quantity of which is many times less than the quantity of rods and cones (as it is stated without any evidence by many scientists). Vision is just illusion, the ends of the rods and cones cannot “see” (perceive) anything, because they rest on a dark opaque pigmentary layer. By analogy with technical devices, light falls on the retina not like on photodiods, but like on a technological “board” (located behind them), onto which they are “soldered”. Textbooks and scientific articles don’t tell anything about it, just as, by the way, about the fact that diameters of the ends of the rods and cones are about ten times larger than the smallest point of “an image” perceived by the eye (therefore, according to the laws of physics, a human being must see small details worse in a bright light, however, everything happens just to the contrary in reality)."

So, eyes are the wrong organs not only to see an infinite, or invisible object but also to have a true image of anything around us.
Recently, I’ve watched a documentary that tells how humans perceive other people’s emotions. These people have one blind eye. During tests, two different pictures were simultaneously shown to each eye. For the good eye they showed a picture of a person with neutral facial gestures, and the blind eye was exposed to a picture with the same person with some vivid emotions on the face. The testees reacted accordingly, that is their facial gestures repeated those of the shown people.

[xEva]

God is exactly like us. God is the creator of our Universe. For God, our Universe is what internet is to us. The internet is still young and evolving, but we can be certain that it will exist --uninterrupted!-- for as long as humanity exists, and who knows, maybe even longer. It will continue to grow and evolve. It already constitutes an evolving Universe with its own laws.

See, the evolution of life is not about new species arising, it's about an intelligent species creating a brand new world with its own laws and its own life based on those laws (of nature, not commandments). We have recently fulfilled our godlike mission by creating ours. And we live in one created by "Gods". So, yeah, God is actually Gods, just like us.

This place was made for entertainment (mostly) ... oh I could go on, but... don't know if you wanna know the whole story..

Edited by xEva, 13 January 2012 - 09:10 AM.

[Googoltarian]

God is like perpetuum mobile.

It can be a song that never ends.

... perpetuum mobile does not exist.

[shadowhawk]

God is like perpetuum mobile.

It can be a song that never ends.

... perpetuum mobile does not exist.

May be off topic bit Ill bite... How do you know?

[hooter]

Law of thermodynamics

[shadowhawk]

Law of thermodynamics

One very good evidence for material world. But is God like this?

Edited by shadowhawk, 16 January 2012 - 08:42 PM.

[xEva]

shadowhawk, why did not you take my bate? God is exactly like us, and this world, us including, was made for entertainment (mostly). See, Garden of Delights, translated into the modern parlance is the Amusement Park (the 20th century talk). Nowadays, of course, all the amusements are on the net. Which constitutes the new Universe in the making.

That was just for starters. I can point out several key parallels between the Cyber World, which is still evolving, and the old world in which we live.

Like above you question the materiality of God. God ain't material in the material sense of the of this world. Exactly like us with the computers. They are us in the sense that our essence is expressed in them, but none of us can actually enter the Cyber World physically. God is the same in the sense that His essence is expressed in all creation, yet he is not actually, physically, materially, in it. He can't be.

[shadowhawk]

shadowhawk, why did not you take my bate? God is exactly like us, and this world, us including, was made for entertainment (mostly). See, Garden of Delights, translated into the modern parlance is the Amusement Park (the 20th century talk). Nowadays, of course, all the amusements are on the net. Which constitutes the new Universe in the making.

That was just for starters. I can point out several key parallels between the Cyber World, which is still evolving, and the old world in which we live.

Like above you question the materiality of God. God ain't material in the material sense of the of this world. Exactly like us with the computers. They are us in the sense that our essence is expressed in them, but none of us can actually enter the Cyber World physically. God is the same in the sense that His essence is expressed in all creation, yet he is not actually, physically, materially, in it. He can't be.

I didn’t take it as bate but your expression of your own faith. I answer the question of what God is like as a Christian but am very interested in the answers to the question following an affirmative answer to, Is There a God?

I can see entertainment as being one reason for God creating us and the cosmos. I see nothing anti-theistic about amusement parks by what ever name you want to call them. I suppose we can always turn the good to evil. It is so in every universe I know about.

Computers are made up of the material world. There is something non material about them and that is they are ordered to perform a intelligent purpose. There is a non material aspect to them and a purpose by a designer which is not material..see http://www.longecity...post__p__496211

Christians believe we have both a material body and a non material spirit which is conscious. Mind orders the computer by design, to carry out the purpose of spirit. Because man has both a body and spirit, I would differ with you, God could enter into the material world just like our non material spirit does.

[Googoltarian]

Your need for god is made of the material world.

[shadowhawk]

Your need for god is made of the material world.

How would you know this?

[Googoltarian]

Your brain is wired for survival, and every god promises some kind of afterlife/eternal existence -> survival.

One question comes to mind - why people that believe in god seek life extension?

[xEva]

I didn’t take it as bate but your expression of your own faith. I answer the question of what God is like as a Christian but am very interested in the answers to the question following an affirmative answer to, Is There a God?

Of course there must have been a God. I don't say it lightly, born and raised atheist in the former Soviet Union. I see the proof of it in life, which to me looks very much like a programmed thing, starting with DNA, which clearly is a code. And the more I study biology, the more I become convinced that it is all designed. By somebody.

My mom, who too was born and raised an atheist, had the same thoughts. Her epiphany came when she was snorkeling in Hawaii. She said she was stunned by the beauty of a coral reef, and then she saw a pretty fish with a print of a fancy bow on its tail. So funny it was that my mom at that moment was convinced that someone had designed that fish, someone with a good sense of humor. Me too, when I see the beauty of fish, insects, flowers, I am convinced that someone designed all that. And some fish are so funny

My former education was in computers. I know how they work and what makes them work, that a complex machine, after a while, with all that programming put into it by various teams at various times, after a while acquires a mind of its own. With time it becomes difficult to predict its behavior or try to change or fix it. And that is being said about machines that were not programmed to act out on their own accord, but to follow concrete instructions.

Of course, you can also program a machine to act out, to grow, learn and develop. But even if you don't do it purposefully, given enough time and complexity that inevitably arises with all those fixes by various teams and then fixes of fixes, lol, like it usually goes, the thing eventually evolves into something else, seemingly acting of its own accord.

And so I have been studying biology and physiology in the last several years, and with my background in computers it's very hard for me to see life other than a program. In fact the more I study it the more I become convinced that it is a program.

I can see entertainment as being one reason for God creating us and the cosmos. I see nothing anti-theistic about amusement parks by what ever name you want to call them. I suppose we can always turn the good to evil. It is so in every universe I know about.

Evil I do not see. I know that Christians believe that Satan is the fallen angel, the embodiment of perfection turned into the embodiment of evil. But I don't see anything evil about him and his team. I rather see them as testers, you know, the ones who test the new software for bugs. It may seem from the side that they have "evil intentions" and all they want is to break the code, but in fact they are only testing the new software looking for bugs so that they could be fixed. What's evil about that?

Computers are made up of the material world. There is something non material about them and that is they are ordered to perform a intelligent purpose. There is a non material aspect to them and a purpose by a designer which is not material..see http://www.longecity...post__p__496211

that link has a bit too many letters for me at the moment. Maybe later. But talking about computers, even though they are made up of worldly materials that will undoubtedly continue to change, their organizational principle is already defined and will stay in the future as it is now. And, perhaps unbeknownst to you, it already defines organization of "space" that houses the evolving Cyber World. I put space in quotes, because its organizational principles are clearly different from the space that houses our Universe, even though at the moment it seems just a part of it. But it is organized differently, and the thing is, the organizational principles of any space define the properties of the world it contains.

Christians believe we have both a material body and a non material spirit which is conscious. Mind orders the computer by design, to carry out the purpose of spirit. Because man has both a body and spirit, I would differ with you, God could enter into the material world just like our non material spirit does.

I don't see where we differ. According to your statement that I put in bold, God is immaterial. Just like I said. Similarly, it is only our immaterial part that can enter the Cyber World, no?

[hooter]

Your brain is wired for survival, and every god promises some kind of afterlife/eternal existence -> survival.

One question comes to mind - why people that believe in god seek life extension?

They want to post-pone meeting Jesus. He and his utopian celestial kingdom of eternal rewards can wait. As comedian Doug Stanhope said, they wouldn't be wearing a seat belt if they really believed it.

[shadowhawk]

I didn’t take it as bate but your expression of your own faith. I answer the question of what God is like as a Christian but am very interested in the answers to the question following an affirmative answer to, Is There a God?

Of course there must have been a God. I don't say it lightly, born and raised atheist in the former Soviet Union. I see the proof of it in life, which to me looks very much like a programmed thing, starting with DNA, which clearly is a code. And the more I study biology, the more I become convinced that it is all designed. By somebody.

My mom, who too was born and raised an atheist, had the same thoughts. Her epiphany came when she was snorkeling in Hawaii. She said she was stunned by the beauty of a coral reef, and then she saw a pretty fish with a print of a fancy bow on its tail. So funny it was that my mom at that moment was convinced that someone had designed that fish, someone with a good sense of humor. Me too, when I see the beauty of fish, insects, flowers, I am convinced that someone designed all that. And some fish are so funny

My former education was in computers. I know how they work and what makes them work, that a complex machine, after a while, with all that programming put into it by various teams at various times, after a while acquires a mind of its own. With time it becomes difficult to predict its behavior or try to change or fix it. And that is being said about machines that were not programmed to act out on their own accord, but to follow concrete instructions.

Of course, you can also program a machine to act out, to grow, learn and develop. But even if you don't do it purposefully, given enough time and complexity that inevitably arises with all those fixes by various teams and then fixes of fixes, lol, like it usually goes, the thing eventually evolves into something else, seemingly acting of its own accord.

And so I have been studying biology and physiology in the last several years, and with my background in computers it's very hard for me to see life other than a program. In fact the more I study it the more I become convinced that it is a program.

I can see entertainment as being one reason for God creating us and the cosmos. I see nothing anti-theistic about amusement parks by what ever name you want to call them. I suppose we can always turn the good to evil. It is so in every universe I know about.

Evil I do not see. I know that Christians believe that Satan is the fallen angel, the embodiment of perfection turned into the embodiment of evil. But I don't see anything evil about him and his team. I rather see them as testers, you know, the ones who test the new software for bugs. It may seem from the side that they have "evil intentions" and all they want is to break the code, but in fact they are only testing the new software looking for bugs so that they could be fixed. What's evil about that?

Computers are made up of the material world. There is something non material about them and that is they are ordered to perform a intelligent purpose. There is a non material aspect to them and a purpose by a designer which is not material..see http://www.longecity...post__p__496211

that link has a bit too many letters for me at the moment. Maybe later. But talking about computers, even though they are made up of worldly materials that will undoubtedly continue to change, their organizational principle is already defined and will stay in the future as it is now. And, perhaps unbeknownst to you, it already defines organization of "space" that houses the evolving Cyber World. I put space in quotes, because its organizational principles are clearly different from the space that houses our Universe, even though at the moment it seems just a part of it. But it is organized differently, and the thing is, the organizational principles of any space define the properties of the world it contains.

Christians believe we have both a material body and a non material spirit which is conscious. Mind orders the computer by design, to carry out the purpose of spirit. Because man has both a body and spirit, I would differ with you, God could enter into the material world just like our non material spirit does.

I don't see where we differ. According to your statement that I put in bold, God is immaterial. Just like I said. Similarly, it is only our immaterial part that can enter the Cyber World, no?

We differ in some things, but I enjoyed your post immensely. Thanks. Are you familar with Perry Marshall?

[shadowhawk]

Your brain is wired for survival, and every god promises some kind of afterlife/eternal existence -> survival.

One question comes to mind - why people that believe in god seek life extension?

Just like LONGECITY?

Now to the question: Life is a Gift from God. What part of a gift would you turn down especially life? Life is good! Just like health or a thousand other gifts, theists enjoy them all while looking forward to the future. It is so obvious I must be misunderstanding you.

[shadowhawk]

[mikeinnaples]

God is like a fantasy created to escape from the reality of existence. Much like a book, movie, or recreational drug.

[shadowhawk]

God is like a fantasy created to escape from the reality of existence. Much like a book, movie, or recreational drug.

BRILLIANT!!! (Atheists are so clever)

As a Theist. "Why? What is God like? What are some unanswered questions and problems? What are your religious authorities? Why do you believe your view is best and what if anything, has been its benefits to you? How did you come to believe this way? What is your religious experience?"

Edited by shadowhawk, 19 January 2012 - 11:59 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

Far more brilliant than allowing yourself to be brainwashed by fiction.

On a side note, What is up with all the bold text and upper case letters? Is it really needed?

[shadowhawk]

Far more brilliant than allowing yourself to be brainwashed by fiction.

On a side note, What is up with all the bold text and upper case letters? Is it really needed?

"FAR MORE BRILLIANT," NAME CALLING!!!

Can't answer the questions of this thread? Thought so. Why don't you be rude and crude in an Atheist topic somewhere? "Is God possible," may be a good suggestion where you can insult Theists all you want, as you have This thread is about God and the various ways God is experienced by us. It is about Theism in its various forms.

As a Theist. "Why? What is God like? What are some unanswered questions and problems? What are your religious authorities? Why do you believe your view is best and what if anything, has been its benefits to you? How did you come to believe this way? What is your religious experience?"

http://www.longecity...post__p__494877

Edited by shadowhawk, 19 January 2012 - 11:48 PM.

[PWAIN]

God is like

[shadowhawk]

God is like

Good! Called "Devine Darkness," in Christianity.