60 replies to this topic

[hooter]

The problem with Mother Theresa is that somehow she made millions of donations vanish and spent the rest on building churches and 'houses for the dying'. The houses for the dying are extraordinarily dark damp hellholes full of sick people stacked in row after row of disgusting unwashed beds. The staff there has little to no medical access or training and they don't even bother sterilizing their needles. She seemed ok with this, walking around smiling and waving. The benefactors thought she would be building hospitals. She was given money to build hospitals and instead she built churches and told women that their place is to be quiet and obey.

She was building breeding grounds for illness and misery which significantly contributed to the deteriorating health of her 'patients'.

As long as they find god before they die she couldn't care less. You can see from her behavior and language patterns that she gets off on it. As a embittered celibate nun the only pleasure she can get is from seeing other people suffer. She was a misogynistic theocrat that squandered hospital funds to build churches and dens of suffering.

I find this absolutely disgusting on the level of despots, the difference being that her cult of personality is still alive. I honestly wish she had been assassinated. Thank all that is holy that she's dead, one less demon to haunt this planet.

Of course if you're convinced of her sanctity you won't do independent research and just dismiss my post. I've supplied the information and voiced my ethical disagreement with her actions. Whether you personally buy it is irrelevant. You looked at a page of the book and decided without merit that it's more likely that the author is mentally ill. Good for you.

Who is to say Christopher Hitchens isn't mentally ill? Excuse me? He was one of the foremost literary intellectuals on the planet, critically acclaimed author and luminary. He is #27 on the world's list of top public intellectuals and was a personal friend of evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins and professional skeptic James Randi. His work is expertly written and the bibliographies stretch over several pages. He has literally won every single debate he's been on.

I get it, she's a religious little grandmother. How could she possibly be evil?
Either way this is completely irrelevant to the discussion and I'm done arguing my position.

I love how people who have done DMT-containing brews know for a fact that it has extremely positive effects and start doing Formal Studies on it talking about how it "makes seretonin receptors more sensitive" and increases "self-reported measures of social adjustment" in relation to individuals who do not consume DMT/harmine mixtures. The individuals drinking it say "Look. I took a trip. I saw things from a different perspective. I got over it. This is medicine. Meet the plant spirits." A Westerner legitimizing this type of self-therapy says "Look at the seretonin sensitivity on this person!"

I take and respect these substances but understand that their effects are purely neurological and try to understand them from a perspective of behavioural neuroscience, philosophy and biology. I have great disdain for anything 'supernatural'.

PS: Guess what, Ayahuasca/Daime is fully legal in Austria!

Edited by hooter, 16 January 2012 - 03:53 PM.

[LeonardElijah]

I take and respect these substances but understand that their effects are purely neurological and try to understand them from a perspective of behavioural neuroscience, philosophy and biology. I have great disdain for anything 'supernatural'.

PS: Guess what, Ayahuasca/Daime is fully legal in Austria!

Well, it's not "supernatural" because we can induce it. And, yet, escaping the confines of the body for a dimension where you honestly can only say "Only God knows if I was in my body or out of my body" is a distinctly religious experience.

A word I heard proposed was "theoneurology." I like it a lot. It doesn't accept traditional theology on face, and it acknowledges that consciousness as experienced seems to escape reduction to simple biology.

I am on board with mysticism. I might even be a witch in the forest burned during the Inquisition for having knowledge of the Divine Eros and mystical states, rejecting the Son of God himself.

But, given the limits of human comprehension and communication, the mystical experience is beyond the limits of a scientific method. "I dose, then I experience something that cannot be explained and come back healthier somehow" is the limit of science on the issue. Certainly, as some people are doing, you can measure the impact on serotonin and social adjustment, which is scientific. But the reason you're better adjusted certainly has nothing to do with science like prescriptions from a psychiatrist purport to be scientific.

BTW, Thank you thank you thank you universe that Daime is legal.

[hooter]

Well, it's not "supernatural" because we can induce it. And, yet, escaping the confines of the body for a dimension where you honestly can only say "Only God knows if I was in my body or out of my body" is a distinctly religious experience.

A word I heard proposed was "theoneurology." I like it a lot. It doesn't accept traditional theology on face, and it acknowledges that consciousness as experienced seems to escape reduction to simple biology.

I am on board with mysticism. I might even be a witch in the forest burned during the Inquisition for having knowledge of the Divine Eros and mystical states, rejecting the Son of God himself.

But, given the limits of human comprehension and communication, the mystical experience is beyond the limits of a scientific method. "I dose, then I experience something that cannot be explained and come back healthier somehow" is the limit of science on the issue. Certainly, as some people are doing, you can measure the impact on serotonin and social adjustment, which is scientific. But the reason you're better adjusted certainly has nothing to do with science like prescriptions from a psychiatrist purport to be scientific.

There is no evidence that consciousness escapes reduction to simple biology. Ocham's Razor dictates that there is no reason to over-complicate when the simple explanation is more plausible. Mind-body duality is generally an antiquated concept.

There is no discernible reason or ration to why it should not be fully explainable and reducible to biology, however complex. A small body of evidence suggests the possibility that sentience may be the result of quantum or electromagnetic processes, yet again these ultimately result from biology.

You argue that it's not supernatural because we can induce it. We can also induce people to believe that they are talking to people who aren't there and reading books that don't exist, this doesn't mean that there is any magic behind it. It's a perceptual experience. Arguably entheogens are an important catalyst of evolution , but to claim that the experience exists outside the scope of your head is the very definition of supernatural. One has to suspend the natural corporeal order in favor of some parallel ethereal space where minds are stored. The consciousness of every human being would have to be contained within this space. It is redundant to say that a phenomenon has to be in the realm of goblins and spirits just because it defies contemporary science.

Where is this exocosmological closet where all the 'souls' are harbored? Why go the extra step?

Edited by hooter, 16 January 2012 - 05:32 PM.

[LeonardElijah]

Where is this exocosmological closet where all the 'souls' are harbored? Why go the extra step?

I agree, and yet it is my belief that our thought on this topic is nothing but language and the assumptions inherent in that language being used to address a domain of experience in which those assumptions do not hold.

I prefer mystical agnosticism. Or, if I were to make it very religious, "hallowed be thy name" and "Enter the Kingdom of God as children."

There is something very very convincing about the experience, and I see no reason to talk about "faith vs. rationalism" When someone uses language that reminds me of the experience, there is a quiet moment of reflection where you ponder the existence of something beyond comprehension.

Occham's Razor presupposes I'm offering an explanation of something. I'm saying I've experienced something that defies explanation. I don't even care to discuss it. I simply know its real. The right person at the right time showing me a piece of artwork that's inspired can make me reflect on that experience without labeling it. That's all the further I'm willing to take "mystical agnosticism." On a phenomenological level, it's real beyond doubt. At the level of "truth" and "thought," it's beyond the limits of knowledge, both affirmation or denial.

[hooter]

I don't even care to discuss it. I simply know its real.

My point exactly.

[bacopacabana]

WRT Piracetam and Psilocybin, I heartily agree!!! I just discovered this combination recently and it's a great way IMO to enhance psychedelics. Really seems to kick things up a notch without a lot of body load and greatly enhances the visual experience.

Psychedelics can clearly move people along the old Theravada Progress of Insight immediately to a big Arising and Passing experience if you're reasonably lucky. And I think luck can be improved with a bit of meditation, and knowledge of set and setting (eyes closed, lights out, safe environment). Beyond the level of Arising and Passing, I feel like psychedelics might help a little, they seem to have helped me a bit, but probably more in psychological areas. As far as actually getting Paths or proceeding to "real" enlightenment, I kind of doubt it. But for an initial awakening, no question.

[hooter]

The definition of enlightenment comes from religious cultures, which are in turn using myth to describe entheogenic rituals. Remember that such experiences are hard to rationalize when there is no concept of biology. The shamen saw enlightenment as the result of an extremely arduous process assisted by hallucinogenic plants. When these became scarce due to climate change and overconsumption, the traditions adapted accordingly.

The loss of the plants in the spiritual journey is deeply regrettable. I agree with the basic shamanic idea that they are the key to absolute control of ones own mind, to transcendent understanding.Hence I think it would seem relatively futile to try and replicate those experiences without entheogens. While possible, it's not necessarily simple or short. In fact it's awfully difficult and life-consuming.

---

Using functional magnetic resonance imaging during a closed-eyes imagery task, we found that Ayahuasca produces a robust increase in the activation of several occipital, temporal, and frontal areas. In the primary visual area, the effect was comparable in magnitude to the activation levels of natural image with the eyes open.

Piracetam allows you higher control and 'maneuverability' of your own mind. Entheogens elevate inner experiences, monologues and thoughts to the detail and vividness of reality.

This is of profound significance. It has been shown that associating memory and thinking with imagination can lead to amazing feats of thought. You may have heard of the method of loci, which consists of constructing a mind palace of a familiar place and using it to store memory more effectively. You pick a place that you know extremely well and a predestined path that you walk through it, then you associate imagery, sounds and emotions with the memories and leave them at specific locations. Now when you go through the mind palace again, you will be able to remember it with extreme clarity.

By making the experiences as vivid as reality, anything imagined could be immediately imprinted into long term memory. This effectively makes it an exceedingly powerful nootropic. To use entheogens as a learning tool, use a far smaller dosage. Their method of action has been identified as having significant language stimulating properties. Piracetam has been shown to improve verbal learning in healthy college students. Together this should facilitate deep and swift natural learning of languages with the ability to eschew accents. Any system based on memory can be encoded this way.

The method of loci on its own has allowed people to memorize thousands of digits of pi and count cards. Their visual imagery could with neurologically provable certainty never be as strong as that of an entheogen experience. Now imagine they would, what could they do now? What if their anchors become elevated from brief scraps imagination to full vibrant mind-shredding visuals? Memories are encoded quickly this way and generally do not disappear. They are anchored to the being and the brilliance of the ritual. Imagine the method of loci used by an experienced shaman.

It should dawn on you that this is how shamen managed to memorize thousands of plants and their individual features. They associated them with mythological beings that had emotions, relatives and life stories because it was easier to remember. Stories and emotions are more vivid than raw biological data.

Since entheogens amplify inner thoughts to be identical in strength to reality, these people become as real as our own friends and acquaintances. Plant spirits and deities are easier to remember than obscure names and classifications. Remember that entheogens are named for a reason. Whether one thinks that they support enlightenment or not, they are obviously a powerful tool and nootropic for anyone interested in creativity and intelligence enhancement.

Edited by hooter, 18 January 2012 - 06:46 PM.

[bacopacabana]

Enlightenment is basically permanently turning down the volume on the whole "self" idea. Glimpses of this are actually pretty easy, but the more permanent solution seems to take a lot of contemplation of the here and now and a desire for ultimate freedom.

Plant entheogens are not at all necessary for this, but they may have helped to clue a few people in here and there.

[hooter]

Plant entheogens are not at all necessary for this, but they may have helped to clue a few people in here and there.

Understatement. Thousands of years of shamanic tribes

[Animal]

Personally I prefer mescaline for a transcendental experience rather then psilocybin, it's less visual, but has a far greater capacity to enhance insight in my experience. I remember once while under the influence I was considering the nature of higher dimensional space; when for one terrifying instant I experienced the entirety of reality as a potentiality expansion cascading down from a non-gravitational singularity in the 10th dimension (11th if you believe more recent conjecture).

It was like I didn't exist, except as the transitory dream of a 'god' particle, and while terror was one element of my immediate reaction, it was also one of the most beautiful experiences of my life.

I haven't had a 'trip' in over 2 years, reading this thread has reminded me why I ever did it in the first place.

[Geovicsha]

Enlightenment from my understanding is paradoxical: to chase enlightenment, you will never be enlightened. Enlightenment can be as simple or as complex as you want. But when you reach it, you'll realise you were always there. You realise there was nothing to realise!

I've only had 2CI and JWC-018 (synthetic weed which causes horrible anxiety/psychosis) that come close to psychedelics, but I'm very interested in trying psilocybin or LSD (perhaps combined with piracetam, aniracetam or pramiracetam). I have no doubt that the experience would be unprecedented, but if it brings me any form of enlightenment, I anticipate it would just make me realise that I, like all of us, are God.

[hooter]

Do not combine piracetam with phenyletylamines (2CI) or stimulant psychedelics (LSD, mescaline). I'm worried about some dopa toxicity there. Even in the best case you'll get awful headaches. Smoked DMT, psilocybin and psilacetin can be safetly combined with piracetam. I don't know about the rest, so proceed with caution.

God is just the meta-control interface of one's own consciousness. God does not extend past the brain of a human being. It's the mechanism that governs selective focus and consciousness. In the dial between animal and pure mind, god is just the substrate through which we perceive. It's an idea and an ideal to be reached. This is enlightenment, the true realization of how much conscious control of our own generated reality we have. Meditation is exercise for the homonunculus. Transcending means no more cognitive biases, no more fallacies and no more filters. We automatically and unconsciously ignore 95% of what is around us. To become enlightened is to make that number approach 0 while remaining functional. This is so extraordinarily difficult that there is no conceivable end in sight.

Entheogens are access keys to the mental interface, the building blocks towards a more evolved way of thought.

Edited by hooter, 24 January 2012 - 01:20 PM.

[Geovicsha]

I agree. Although, I didn't mean God in the Westernised, omnipotent version at all. The word God probably being synonymous with enlightenment.

[hooter]

I agree. Although, I didn't mean God in the Westernised, omnipotent version at all. The word God probably being synonymous with enlightenment.

It should be obvious that I do not believe in deities, ghosts, fairies, and other irrational apparitions. I meant the same as you

[hooter]

Yes! We finally have enough biomedical evidence for the fact that magic mushrooms dissolve perceptual filters, cultural norms, memetic loop behaviour and cognitive distortion:

Psychedelic drugs have a long history of use in healing ceremonies, but despite renewed interest in their therapeutic potential, we continue to know very little about how they work in the brain. Here we used psilocybin, a classic psychedelic found in magic mushrooms, and a task-free functional MRI (fMRI) protocol designed to capture the transition from normal waking consciousness to the psychedelic state. Arterial spin labeling perfusion and blood-oxygen level-dependent (BOLD) fMRI were used to map cerebral blood flow and changes in venous oxygenation before and after intravenous infusions of placebo and psilocybin.

Fifteen healthy volunteers were scanned with arterial spin labeling and a separate 15 with BOLD. As predicted, profound changes in consciousness were observed after psilocybin, but surprisingly, only decreases in cerebral blood flow and BOLD signal were seen, and these were maximal in hub regions, such as the thalamus and anterior and posterior cingulate cortex (ACC and PCC).

Decreased activity in the ACC/medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC) was a consistent finding and the magnitude of this decrease predicted the intensity of the subjective effects. Based on these results, a seed-based pharmaco-physiological interaction/functional connectivity analysis was performed using a medial prefrontal seed. Psilocybin caused a significant decrease in the positive coupling between the mPFC and PCC. These results strongly imply that the subjective effects of psychedelic drugs are caused by decreased activity and connectivity in the brain's key connector hubs, enabling a state of unconstrained cognition.

Edited by hooter, 24 January 2012 - 05:16 PM.

[Philosopher]

Yes! We finally have enough biomedical evidence for the fact that magic mushrooms dissolve perceptual filters, cultural norms, memetic loop behaviour and cognitive distortion:

Psychedelic drugs have a long history of use in healing ceremonies, but despite renewed interest in their therapeutic potential, we continue to know very little about how they work in the brain. Here we used psilocybin, a classic psychedelic found in magic mushrooms, and a task-free functional MRI (fMRI) protocol designed to capture the transition from normal waking consciousness to the psychedelic state. Arterial spin labeling perfusion and blood-oxygen level-dependent (BOLD) fMRI were used to map cerebral blood flow and changes in venous oxygenation before and after intravenous infusions of placebo and psilocybin.

Fifteen healthy volunteers were scanned with arterial spin labeling and a separate 15 with BOLD. As predicted, profound changes in consciousness were observed after psilocybin, but surprisingly, only decreases in cerebral blood flow and BOLD signal were seen, and these were maximal in hub regions, such as the thalamus and anterior and posterior cingulate cortex (ACC and PCC).

Decreased activity in the ACC/medial prefrontal cortex (mPFC) was a consistent finding and the magnitude of this decrease predicted the intensity of the subjective effects. Based on these results, a seed-based pharmaco-physiological interaction/functional connectivity analysis was performed using a medial prefrontal seed. Psilocybin caused a significant decrease in the positive coupling between the mPFC and PCC. These results strongly imply that the subjective effects of psychedelic drugs are caused by decreased activity and connectivity in the brain's key connector hubs, enabling a state of unconstrained cognition.

That is beautiful. It just makes me frustrated that I have yet to find ANY psilocybin!

[quamquam91]

If you read my post you will see that I didn't say you will get addicted to shrooms. I said if you are an addict, psychedelics can open up the gates to other drugs. I'm talking about someone who quit using hard drugs. It can lead you back to them. I know they arn't addicting in themselves.

About a year ago, I took acid, and within a week I was back to smoking weed (which I had quit, and to which I have always reacted very poorly). So there is truth in your statement.

[hooter]

This is why I also state that it is absolutely pointless to smoke cannabis during a psilocybin+piracetam experience. That's recreational, not for transcendence.

[Connor MacLeod]

It's life changing, ego shattering and really put you in your place.

Marriage is an option for those looking for a legal alternative.

[Hebbeh]

It's life changing, ego shattering and really put you in your place.

Marriage is an option for those looking for a legal alternative.

Most profound statement of reality that I've read for a long time!
Kudos to your inner insight!

[gamesguru]

Entheogens are access keys to the mental interface, the building blocks towards a more evolved way of thought.

I think this is still controversial. Some who disagree with you might even say people who advocate these psychedelics, such as yourself, are only defending their (crazy) personal bias. That's quite harsh, and I tend to take a softer view that people are driven to experiment out of boredom and creativity, and that certain drug users are a great deal saner than certain abstainers.

We can't know for sure, but I don't think psychedelics give people a broader perspective. Huxley would say psychedelic drugs open doors of perceptions, and I would say only a scant few doors. If shamans have been having their minds blown for thousands of years, then why haven't they come up with an unbelievable quantity of original teachings? The progress just isn't there to back up the purported enhancing properties of the drugs. You might say the kind of "revelations/epiphanies" revealed during these trips are not something which can be recorded, let alone communicated or taught, and if this is the case, then I personally don't attach a huge utility to them. Perhaps they confer some sort of subtle benefit in the form of a greater self-mastery or self-understanding, but I find that almost far-fetched (I admittedly didn't read everything you wrote, so point me to a post if you already established and elaborated on this "subtle benefit", which I do not presently perceive). Another point worth asking is if these benefits can be reached through mediation, or if it is absolutely impossible to attain this experience w/o psychedelics.

With things like piracetam, however, which are much more recent, and specific to the cholinergic/dopaminergic system, I might be willing to bet they will be useful to thinkers, since I believe it presents them with an unnatural ability to focus. Unfortunately, experience dictates that intellectual growth is a slow process, indeed lasting the whole life, and to attempt to ascertain a subtle improvement in it based upon only a few months of experimentation with nootropics or psychedelics isn't going to be easy. So time will reveal to the brave whether their experiment was helpful or harmful. If I had to guess, I'd say piracetam is something all intellectuals deserve to try. Sorry, but I just think psychedelics and nootropics aren't exactly the same thing, though admittedly, I have a much poorer grasp on how 5-HT2A receptors influence cognition than on how specific dopamine or acetylcholine receptors influence it. Luckily I'm not alone, and psychedelics are a great mystery to others as well.

Edited by dasheenster, 29 June 2012 - 08:51 PM.

[The Immortalist]

What's the point of using these shroom things to obtain a sort of "enlightened" state? I don't see the benefit unless of course they increase your productivity somehow.

[The Immortalist]

Yes! We finally have enough biomedical evidence for the fact that magic mushrooms dissolve perceptual filters, cultural norms, memetic loop behaviour and cognitive distortion:

What if you don't have any of these or barely any of these traits in the first place?

[csrpj]

What's the point of using these shroom things to obtain a sort of "enlightened" state? I don't see the benefit unless of course they increase your productivity somehow.

why mainly focus on increasing productivity if can discover you're being productive in the wrong endeavors?

[gamesguru]

why mainly focus on increasing productivity if can discover you're being productive in the wrong endeavors?

A very clever argument against being dutiful. Is pure philosophical contemplation (the type we might desire to enhance through psychedelics) even valuable though, or is it merely innocent but useless trifling concerning matters where exact knowledge is eternally impossible? The world may never know. Spread your stocks. Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

Edited by dasheenster, 30 June 2012 - 03:00 AM.

[abelard lindsay]

I think the main thing modulating brain chemistry can teach is that mental states are just chemical reactions in the brain. They are real physical things that are not caused by the failing of personal character or mental ability. This is not to say that there's no such thing as personal responsibility. In fact, it can make exercising personal responsibility work better because the person who understands the biochemical makeup of their person can be able to better separate that from the reality of the current situation.

I think the most workable guide for this is Dr. Eric Braverman's "The Edge Effect". It provides tests for measuring brain chemical levels and for modulating those levels using diet, supplements, medicines and certain exercises. Yes, it's speculative, but I've gotten good use out of it. After taking the tests in the book enough times, I can readily tell whether my serotonin, gaba, choline or dopamine levels are too low or too high and can adjust my stack accordingly. Being able to tune these neurochemical levers in my brain and get feedback as my mental state measurably changes along the four dimensional neurochemical axis has provided me with some interesting insight into my own personality and largely replaced pop psychology and self-help conventional wisdom.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 30 June 2012 - 05:28 PM.

[Adaptogen]

this topic should not die here. any more insight to share?

Edited by Adaptogen, 17 December 2012 - 07:16 AM.

[8bitmore]

I think the most workable guide for this is Dr. Eric Braverman's "The Edge Effect". It provides tests for measuring brain chemical levels and for modulating those levels using diet, supplements, medicines and certain exercises. Yes, it's speculative, but I've gotten good use out of it. After taking the tests in the book enough times, I can readily tell whether my serotonin, gaba, choline or dopamine levels are too low or too high and can adjust my stack accordingly. Being able to tune these neurochemical levers in my brain and get feedback as my mental state measurably changes along the four dimensional neurochemical axis has provided me with some interesting insight into my own personality and largely replaced pop psychology and self-help conventional wisdom.

@Adaptogen, thanks for the post resurrection

I recently bought a copy of Braverman's work and was not very impressed at all; I think it boils down to a sense that brain chemistry (incl the guy's 'axis' system between the 4 big ones) is simply a part of the building blocks of our body/mind-complex state. Feeling x y or z basically means that that is what you're feeling; if it was beneficial to react to complex emotional states by "bio-regulating" (through diet/drugs..etc.) one out of four different parameters (serotonin, gaba, choline, dopamine) then I doubt we would have evolved into having those complex states to begin with.

[Raza]

It's not a drug, it's a tool. Once again psilocybin is not a drug, it's a tool for transcendence. I will say this and I will say it a billion times: it's not a toy.

I liked most of your first post on this subject, but I'm getting really tired of people insisting that their pet favorite substances are 'not drugs' by sheer virtue of their wholesomeness.

An ingested substance that alters the functioning of the body by means other than nutrition is a drug. Caffeine is a drug. Alcohol is a drug. Piracetam is a drug. Psilocybin is a drug.

The irrational negative impact of the word 'drug' is never going to subside if fans of all the good ones keep claiming that they're special exceptions to the definition. Something can be simultaneously a drug and a tool for transcendence, as well as a whole bunch of other useful and valuable things, so please stop beating around the bush about it.

[nupi]

I recently bought a copy of Braverman's work and was not very impressed at all; I think it boils down to a sense that brain chemistry (incl the guy's 'axis' system between the 4 big ones) is simply a part of the building blocks of our body/mind-complex state. Feeling x y or z basically means that that is what you're feeling; if it was beneficial to react to complex emotional states by "bio-regulating" (through diet/drugs..etc.) one out of four different parameters (serotonin, gaba, choline, dopamine) then I doubt we would have evolved into having those complex states to begin with.

Yes. And besides, even if diet changes can temporarily boost/reduce some neurotransmitters, receptor up/downregulation is likely to bring you back to where you started. I have the suspicion that this is ultimately also the case for most pharmaceuticals, even if they may work slightly longer - the stories of SSRIs pooping out are legion...