22 replies to this topic

[sentrysnipe]

Hey guys we're trying to help out our friend who's been having some unusual symptoms since last year.

• She took D-Ribose and most likely OD'd a little bit because she felt very sick. She said she didn't eat much that time and was on low-carb diet.
• We suspect her sugar got so low because I found out that D-Ribose actually lowers blood glucose.
• Since then she's been having ketosis breath (bad breath and sign of either low carb or diabetes) nonstop despite eating > 150g carbs and stopping D-Ribose.
• Her fasting glucose is normal, her doctors don't know what to do.
• Now she's been leaking protein and her tummy's getting bloated. Could this be something like gluconeogenesis but without diabetes? Has she been *TOO TOLERANT* of eating sugar that her insulin became so active?
• Creatinine, EGF normal, 24hr urine protein too much
• If so what can we make her take or do? She said it's hard for her to eat >250g carbs (SAD diet) to check if that's what's causing it.

Thanks for all the help

[zorba990]

I am not a doctor. Best to talk to a medical professional who is used to dealing with supplements and unusual cases.

How about some numbers? (How much Ribose, urine protein numbers, etc). Any other supplements she was taking like arginine or other amino acids?
Seems like there is kidney damage but I would doubt it was the Ribose. Check enzyme blood markers for pancreatitis, check for kidney (and adrenal) infection/stones/tumors/etc. Could be lots of things. Gorging on carbs is unlikely to correct the issue. Arginase supplement may help if kidney protein buildup is the issue -- but what is the cause?

[Lufega]

Thiamin comes to mind for kidney protection. The toxicity studies for D-ribose find no alterations of any kind. What else was she on ? Does she have any pre-existing condidions ?

http://news.bbc.co.u...lth/7796073.stm

[xEva]

Since then she's been having ketosis breath (bad breath and sign of either low carb or diabetes) nonstop despite eating > 150g carbs and stopping D-Ribose.

Her bad breath is the only symptom on which you hang your ketosis diagnosis. But ketones do not stink, they smell of slightly rotted apples or peaches. Maybe not roses, but this fruity smell is not that bad.

IMO what she got is bacteria overgrowth in her small intestine, due to, possibly, some pH problems. She ,may crave sour foods, like sauerkraut, or even coke due to its high acid content -? If so, let her have it.

In any rate, your " low carb or diabetes" guess does not sound right.

Edited by xEva, 17 January 2012 - 02:35 AM.

[Luminosity]

I think that either a acupuncturist or an MD should deal with this. It sounds related to the kidneys. She might try a endocrinologist. You usually need a referral from another doctor to see one. She might also try a nephrologist. Personally I would go to an acupuncturist. On this thread you can find information on how to find a good one:

http://www.longecity...inese-medicine/

If I were her I would seek help right away and not do any extreme things, or follow any fad diets.

Edited by Luminosity, 17 January 2012 - 02:52 AM.

[Lufega]

Found this interesting. Maybe some SOD/glisodin might be useful to protect heparan sulfate.

http://coolinginflam...start-same.html

Inflammation Reduces Heparan Sulfate Production
Pathogen-generated inflammation of the intestines reduces heparan sulfate production and increases immune response to food antigens. NFkB activation by inflammation turns off the production of some genes needed for heparan sulfate proteoglycan (HSPG) synthesis. Since HSPG is a major component of the basement membrane that holds tissues together, the reduction of HSPG results in protein loss (proteinuria) from kidneys, leaking of intestines, and disruption of the blood/brain barrier.

[MrHappy]

Sounds like kidney issues.

Perhaps she had contaminated supplements or some other exposure? Is her weight/diet/general health normally OK?

[niner]

I'd want to hear a nephrologist say that her kidneys are ok, but that might not be the end of it. How long has it been since the onset? Any idea of the brand of the d-ribose, and how much she took? If there's any left, I'd hang on to it for possible analysis. Or, it might be a red herring, and have nothing to do with it, as zorba990 suggests. The kwashiorkor-like symptom is pretty weird. When you say her doctors don't know what to do, what kind of doctors are we talking about?

[sentrysnipe]

Her bad breath is the only symptom on which you hang your ketosis diagnosis. In any rate, your " low carb or diabetes" guess does not sound right.

I did not mean to suggest that her bad breath was due to the ketones but if you do a low-carb diet or even undergo bariatric surgery, you will experience this unique bad odor that is at the back of your mouth when you breathe: http://www.webmd.com...ause-bad-breath

I'd want to hear a nephrologist say that her kidneys are ok, but that might not be the end of it. How long has it been since the onset? Any idea of the brand of the d-ribose, and how much she took? If there's any left, I'd hang on to it for possible analysis. Or, it might be a red herring, and have nothing to do with it, as zorba990 suggests. The kwashiorkor-like symptom is pretty weird. When you say her doctors don't know what to do, what kind of doctors are we talking about?

Hi she does not have health insurance so she simply went to the local health clinic. I was not implying that d-Ribose caused her illness. She used to experience ketosis with the shiny urine and bad breath before taking d-ribose but while on low-carb diet, it goes away in days after she adds more carb to her diet, but after she took that d-ribose while still on the same diet, she never stopped experiencing the distinct low-carb breath smell

Thank you Lufega.

I'll ask her more later about her symptoms

[hamishm00]

Proteinuria is often a clear indication of something wrong with the nephrons. First port of call is a nephrologist, as a matter of urgency.

Edited by hamishm00, 17 January 2012 - 04:49 PM.

[Ark]

Any Thyroid tests?

Also; Check for Heavy Metals

Good luck hope your friend feels better with rest and time.

[xEva]

I did not mean to suggest that her bad breath was due to the ketones but if you do a low-carb diet or even undergo bariatric surgery, you will experience this unique bad odor that is at the back of your mouth when you breathe: http://www.webmd.com...ause-bad-breath

That site is wrong. It's NOT ketones that stink but some bacteria metabolites. The smell of ketones was always described as fruity, and that's how ketoacidosis was traditionally diagnosed way back when, before proper tests became available. Google ketones fruity.

Not everyone fasting or eating low-carb develops bad breath. And it goes away, on the same diet, after a course of antibiotics.

[Luminosity]

<sub>If she doesn't have insurance, Chinese medicine is the most cost effective way of dealing with this. They can fix this but she better go in now. She'll have to go for as many visits as necessary and take whatever herbs they recommend. Don't delay.

Keep the unused supplements in case they were contaminated. Put them in a bag with a big label so no one will take them.

Unless there was a medical reason for it, low or no carb diets are the last thing she needs right now. Any other extreme regimens should stop right now.</sub>

Edited by Luminosity, 19 January 2012 - 01:47 AM.

[Danail Bulgaria]

do not waste time and money for non traditional medicine. go to a real doctor - nephrologist was suggested - as soon as possible.

[renfr]

Hey guys we're trying to help out our friend who's been having some unusual symptoms since last year.

• She took D-Ribose and most likely OD'd a little bit because she felt very sick. She said she didn't eat much that time and was on low-carb diet.
• We suspect her sugar got so low because I found out that D-Ribose actually lowers blood glucose.
• Since then she's been having ketosis breath (bad breath and sign of either low carb or diabetes) nonstop despite eating > 150g carbs and stopping D-Ribose.
• Her fasting glucose is normal, her doctors don't know what to do.
• Now she's been leaking protein and her tummy's getting bloated. Could this be something like gluconeogenesis but without diabetes? Has she been *TOO TOLERANT* of eating sugar that her insulin became so active?
• Creatinine, EGF normal, 24hr urine protein too much
• If so what can we make her take or do? She said it's hard for her to eat >250g carbs (SAD diet) to check if that's what's causing it.

Thanks for all the help

That's really scary.
Did she recover? I hope so. I just ordered last week a free D-Ribose sample from Iherb, guess I will be very careful with this stuff.
D-ribose can increase significantly uric acid and those are the symptoms of high uric acid : http://en.wikipedia....#High_uric_acid
Kidney failure can also likely cause that too.

[zorba990]

I just bought a bottle of NOW ribose powder and it absolutely reeks of acetone. I can't imagine anyone consuming it. I've taken it previously and it was fine -- so someone is screwing up the manufacturing process. They had better get this sorted or we'll have another tryptophan like issue.

I reported the issue to the manufacturer. If I don't hear from them in a day or so I'll report it to the FDA

Edited by zorba990, 02 May 2013 - 01:51 AM.

[GetOutOfBox]

Acetone actually has a pretty low toxicity, it takes 1.159 g/kg ingested to reach the lethal dose (and at much lower levels like you'd get from a 500mg scoop there shouldn't be any chronic issues or damage beyond mild stomache upset perhaps).

[zorba990]

They already issued a refund - would still like to see it tested.

[Guardian4981]

I don't think you are stating enough daily symptoms outside "ketosis breath" which is a bit vague.

What is her lifestyle like, does she excercise extensively?

Carb depletion and metabolic damage can take time to recover from if that is the issue.

I almost tried D ribose myself and didn't, I tend to be prone to hypoglycemia.

[Luminosity]

In my experience, NOW supplements often don't contain what they say they do. I never buy NOW products.

[zorba990]

Well they definately lost one more customer. The retailer is taking the product back but NOWs response was that the product was fine. I really cannot imagine anyone consuming it.

[rongqiaohe]

Her bad breath is the only symptom on which you hang your ketosis diagnosis. In any rate, your " low carb or diabetes" guess does not sound right.

I did not mean to suggest that her bad breath was due to the ketones but if you do a low-carb diet or even undergo bariatric surgery, you will experience this unique bad odor that is at the back of your mouth when you breathe: http://www.webmd.com...ause-bad-breath

I'd want to hear a nephrologist say that her kidneys are ok, but that might not be the end of it. How long has it been since the onset? Any idea of the brand of the d-ribose, and how much she took? If there's any left, I'd hang on to it for possible analysis. Or, it might be a red herring, and have nothing to do with it, as zorba990 suggests. The kwashiorkor-like symptom is pretty weird. When you say her doctors don't know what to do, what kind of doctors are we talking about?

Hi she does not have health insurance so she simply went to the local health clinic. I was not implying that d-Ribose caused her illness. She used to experience ketosis with the shiny urine and bad breath before taking d-ribose but while on low-carb diet, it goes away in days after she adds more carb to her diet, but after she took that d-ribose while still on the same diet, she never stopped experiencing the distinct low-carb breath smell

Thank you Lufega.

I'll ask her more later about her symptoms

Dear friend,
Our research results may explain your friend's problem. Please see: http://www.pibb.ac.c...20130341&flag=1
With the best regards,
Rongqiao He

<sub>If she doesn't have insurance, Chinese medicine is the most cost effective way of dealing with this. They can fix this but she better go in now. She'll have to go for as many visits as necessary and take whatever herbs they recommend. Don't delay.

Keep the unused supplements in case they were contaminated. Put them in a bag with a big label so no one will take them.

Unless there was a medical reason for it, low or no carb diets are the last thing she needs right now. Any other extreme regimens should stop right now.</sub>

Yes, you are right.
Please see: http://www.pibb.ac.c...20130341&flag=1

RQ He

[Luminosity]

Thank you for your contribution.

We have found that the concentration of D-ribose is abnormally high in the urine of type 2 diabetics. This suggests that type 2 diabetics suffer from not only disorders in D-glucose metabolism, but also in D-ribose metabolism. -- rongqiaohe [from another thread]

The English information on your link is not that easy to see. I've reposted it here. I hope that's o.k.? From:

http://www.pibb.ac.c...20130341&flag=1

In 1815, the French chemist Michel Eug?ne Chevreul (1786-1889) discovered that the sweetness in the urine of diabetics comes from grape sugar or D-glucose. Diabetes mellitus (DM) is considered as a group of metabolic diseases characterized by hyperglycemia (high concentration of blood D-glucose) resulting from defects in insulin secretion, insulin action, or both. On the other hand, D-ribose as an energetic enhancer was found to decrease the concentration of blood D-glucose, and thus "Oral administration of D-ribose in diabetes mellitus" was ever described by Steinberg and colleagues (1970). As described previously in this laboratory, D-ribose rapidly glycates proteins, such as BSA, neuronal Tau and α-synuclein, producing advanced glycation end products (AGEs) with severe cytotoxicity, leading to dysfunction and cell death, in vitro and in vivo. Intraperitoneal injection of D-ribose into mice significantly increases their glycated serum protein and blood AGEs though the concentration of D-glucose became slightly decreased, suggesting that D-ribose is much easier to produce AGEs than D-glucose in vivo. Here, using 4-(3-Methyl-5-oxo-2-pyrazolin-1-yl) benzoic acid (MOPBA) coupled with HPLC, we determined the concentration of uric D-ribose of type 2 diabetic patients (n=30) and the age-matched healthy controls (n=30). The results show that the yield of the derivative of MOPBA-ribose is linearly correlated with the concentration of D-ribose (r²=0.999) with a recovery of 99%. The isolated fractions of D-ribose and D-glucose from urine of type 2 diabetic patients through HPLC were analyzed by mass spectrometry, and the results showed that the fractions contained 569.19 u compound (C₂₇H₂₉N₄O₁₀, D-ribose), and 599.20 u compound (C₂₈H₃₁N₄O₁₁, D-glucose) respectively. The concentration of uric D-ribose of Type 2 diabetics (male (134.28±35.09) μmol/L, female (97.33±23.68) μmol/L) was significantly (P < 0.001) higher than that of the age-matched healthy control (male (35.99±5.64) μmol/L, female (33.72±6.27) μmol/L). Under the experimental conditions, the uric D-glucose level of the patients was also markedly (P < 0.001) higher than the control. Further analyses showed a marked increase in the level of uric D-ribose from either male (P < 0.001) or female (P < 0.001), but a significant difference of the uric levels between male and female could not be observed (P > 0.05). The high levels of uric D-ribose and D-glucose of the patients suggest that type 2 diabetic patients are not only suffered from D-glucose metabolism disorders, but also from D-ribose metabolism disorders.

Edited by Luminosity, 05 October 2013 - 05:55 AM.