19 replies to this topic

[malbecman]

Just saw this on the NY Times website, have not had too much time to delve into it:

http://www.nytimes.c...c=me&ref=health


I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts on it. I know there are plenty of people supplementing to > 21 ng/ml blood levels....

[JChief]

wow bump!

[niner]

Here's the abstract. There's not a huge signal here- in the region above 21ng/dl 25oh-d, a 10ng/dl increase in d raised crp .06 from a median of .21. Since CRP and 25-OH-D3 are both easy to measure, and are both things that we ought to be following, we can see what our D supplementation is doing to us in that regard. My CRP has stayed low despite a substantial increase in D levels.

All substances have inverted u-shaped or half u-shaped curves when you plot goodness versus dose. The tricky part is figuring out the dimensions of the curve, for each outcome or marker, and for our particular genome and habits. I think that a lot of the association of D with good outcomes is due to the correction of deficiency.

[stephen_b]

Dr Cannell of the Vitamin D council's response.

[hav]

Here's another way to lower CRP: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15514725

Howard

[malbecman]

Ok, good to read the other perspectives and think this one over a little. It really does come across as a bit of hand waving now. Thanks for the replys.....

[poolboy]

Personally I had my blood levels of both D and CRP taken in November, My D level was 82 while my crp was 0.4 -- about 80% lower than the level they said they found in people who had D at 50.

Obviously, D is not pushing up my CRP level.

[BDon]

I hear up to 50,000 IU of Vit. D3 per day have shown no harmful effects? I know a guy supplementing 10,000 IU of D3 daily and every 3rd day he takes 25,000 iu and he lives in Portugal where its SUNNY! Is this detrimental?

[niner]

I hear up to 50,000 IU of Vit. D3 per day have shown no harmful effects? I know a guy supplementing 10,000 IU of D3 daily and every 3rd day he takes 25,000 iu and he lives in Portugal where its SUNNY! Is this detrimental?

Yes, it probably is. 50K IU is ok for a short period, but your risk is determined by your blood level of 25-OH-D3, and that guy's level is probably sky high. He might end up with calcification in his arteries and soft tissues. Vitamin D, like everything else, is not a matter of "more's better and too much is just right". If you look at the epidemiology on it, all-cause mortality starts to increase beyond 35ng/ml, at least according to figure 1 in this paper.

[DbCooper]

I hear up to 50,000 IU of Vit. D3 per day have shown no harmful effects? I know a guy supplementing 10,000 IU of D3 daily and every 3rd day he takes 25,000 iu and he lives in Portugal where its SUNNY! Is this detrimental?

Yes, it probably is. 50K IU is ok for a short period, but your risk is determined by your blood level of 25-OH-D3, and that guy's level is probably sky high. He might end up with calcification in his arteries and soft tissues. Vitamin D, like everything else, is not a matter of "more's better and too much is just right". If you look at the epidemiology on it, all-cause mortality starts to increase beyond 35ng/ml, at least according to figure 1 in this paper.

You can't hang your hat on epidemiological studies there are simply too many other variables that are not being controlled for, diet being a major one. A person of caucasian decent who spends a summer day at a sunny beach, can easily produce 50,000 IU of Vit D3. There are people called lifeguards out here in San Diego that likely get a dose like this daily. They aren't falling over dead, do to calcification of there arterial walls.

In fact they seem to be some of the most robust people on the beach.

[nameless]

You can't hang your hat on epidemiological studies there are simply too many other variables that are not being controlled for, diet being a major one. A person of caucasian decent who spends a summer day at a sunny beach, can easily produce 50,000 IU of Vit D3. There are people called lifeguards out here in San Diego that likely get a dose like this daily. They aren't falling over dead, do to calcification of there arterial walls.

In fact they seem to be some of the most robust people on the beach.

Keep in mind it's not like they'll just fall over dead from calcification immediately. It would be interesting to look at larger groups of sunshine people and study long-term CVD risk.

Only study I am aware of is the Indian one --
Serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D3 levels are elevated in South Indian patients with ischemic heart disease.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11949730

[BDon]

Wow. So he's actually puttng himself into bad health in the future?

[maxwatt]

Wow. So he's actually puttng himself into bad health in the future?

Maybe, maybe not.

There is almost certainly a difference between endogenous vitamin D production and exogenous supplementation. I would expect the lifeguards will have little to worry about. It would be peculiar indeed if we hadn't evolved a mechanism to compensate for over-production of D due to sun exposure.Our not-too-distant ancestors ran around naked in the tropical sun.

Supplementation is another matter, and could bypass whatever mechanisms we've evolved to limit intake from sun exposure via the skin. And while epidemiological studies cannot predict an exact outcome for an individual, they can give a pretty good idea as to one's odds. All-cause mortality increases beyond a certain level. Niner inferred 35 ng from the study he cited above. I've seen 50 ng cited as the upper limit where mortality increases. I certainly would not want my level over 50. If you supplement, get your blood levels checked periodically.

Edited by maxwatt, 08 April 2012 - 03:11 AM.

[niner]

Wow. So he's actually puttng himself into bad health in the future?

Maybe, maybe not.

There is almost certainly a difference between endogenous vitamin D production and exogenous supplementation. I would expect the lifeguards will have little to worry about. It would be peculiar indeed if we hadn't evolved a mechanism to compensate for over-production of D due to sun exposure.Our not-too-distant ancestors ran around naked in the tropical sun.

We did evolve a mechanism to get an appropriate amount of D from sun exposure; built-in sunscreen in the form of melanin. Now that we move all over the world, we're subverting that mechanism, so dark skinned people from the tropics who move to the north are at risk of D deficiency, and light skinned people from the north who move to San Diego might be at risk for atherosclerosis down the road. I don't recall vitamin K coming up in this thread; K will counteract the calcium problem to some degree, and help to keep the calcium in your bones instead of in vasculature and soft tissue where you don't want it.

Supplementation is another matter, and could bypass whatever mechanisms we've evolved to limit intake from sun exposure via the skin. And while epidemiological studies cannot predict an exact outcome for an individual, they can give a pretty good idea as to one's odds. All-cause mortality increases beyond a certain level. Niner inferred 35 ng from the study he cited above. I've seen 50 ng cited as the upper limit where mortality increases. I certainly would not want my level over 50. If you supplement, get your blood levels checked periodically.

When we first discussed the Melamed paper here, a lot of people were citing 50 from the paper. I just mentioned 35 because it's the minimum in the mortality curve, but it's a very broad minimum, so I wouldn't make too much of it. There's also some prostate cancer data suggesting that things start looking worse above the 30's. I agree that we should check levels at least occasionally, or whenever supplementation or sun exposure changes significantly. Not everyone responds the same to supplementation or sun exposure, and not all supplements have the same bioavailability.

[BDon]

Would it be okay to supplement with Vitamin D-3 25,000iu every 2nd or 3rd day? as opposing to 5-10K everyday?

[niner]

Would it be okay to supplement with Vitamin D-3 25,000iu every 2nd or 3rd day? as opposing to 5-10K everyday?

Yes, that's fine, because the half life of vitamin D is extremely long. You could take it once a week if you wanted, but just be sure to do the math so you are getting the number of IU per day that you want. I take 6000 IU/week, but since I'm using 2000 IU softgels, I distribute them throughout the week. If I happened to be using 5000 IU pills, I'd take one a week.

[BDon]

Okay is Vit. D3 dose-dependent on weight, age?

For example I am 21 years old, bodyweight fluctuating around 166-170. I was thinking just 25,000 IU every 2-3rd days is enough however I'd be getting enough sun due to Summer time overseas. So I think this is enough

Thorne Research D-3 25000iu is the one I was considering.

Thanks 9er!

Would it be okay to supplement with Vitamin D-3 25,000iu every 2nd or 3rd day? as opposing to 5-10K everyday?

Yes, that's fine, because the half life of vitamin D is extremely long. You could take it once a week if you wanted, but just be sure to do the math so you are getting the number of IU per day that you want. I take 6000 IU/week, but since I'm using 2000 IU softgels, I distribute them throughout the week. If I happened to be using 5000 IU pills, I'd take one a week.

[maxwatt]

I suspect 25,000 is too much for most people, even once a week. But If you have had a long-term insufficiency, such an 'attack dose' for several weeks might bring your levels into a healthy range more quickly. You are also more likely to overshoot the mark into an undesirably high blood level of D25. Without blood testing, we are dancing in the dark.

[nameless]

Why choose a 25K dose over something smaller? As mentioned, a good chance you'll miss the mark and end up too high. You have to get blood tests to figure out what dose it optimal. You are guessing otherwise. I've been taking 2500IU, 6 day/week, and that takes me to a serum of 36. For some people, that may take them to 50+.

I do wonder if dosing every day is perhaps preferable to EOD, or once a week, etc. Although half-life is long and serum levels certainly will rise if taken once a week, perhaps specific organs may make use of D3 at a different rate, or there could be some benefit by not varying D3 levels so much. 25K every couple of days (or weekly) is sort of a big spike, then big drop off... over and over...

Any animal studies out there comparing daily dosing with high doses at intervals?

Edited by nameless, 09 April 2012 - 05:12 AM.

[Bron]

Thanks for this info, as I have been trying to determine what ideal D levels for me are.

I can just give you my CRP and D levels. Before this blood test, I was taking 8,000 IUs of D3 daily in the dead of winter. I tested at 34 ng/ml. I cannot give you my exact CRP since it tested at <0.10 mg/dl.

So for me, that additional vitamin D hasn't seemed to have raised my CRP levels. However, I am not sure if I could have a 0 CRP or not if i dropped my D levels 21 ng/ml. My doctor was unsure as well, he said he has never seen a test come back as 0.

http://www.lef.org/m...rt_blood_03.htm

Lef seems to include it in the laboratory reference range however, so I would assume there are times when people have absolutely no CRP in their blood (link may not show up as this is only my 3rd post).



Now, I also was not exercising at all for months prior to this blood test, as I was recovering from multiple fasciotomies. Anectdotally, I can only guess for why my levels were what my doctor claimed to be the lowest levels he has ever seen in his patients. My guess is my CR and ingestion of over 10 cloves of crushed garlic allowed to then sit for 10 minutes (daily).

Funny thing is we were expecting high levels, considering I have compartment syndrome in just about every muscle group in my body.

Edited by Bron, 01 March 2013 - 08:36 PM.