139 replies to this topic

[Rior]

I'd like to possibly suggest: Afobazole? I haven't used it personally, but from what I read it seems like a very good candidate considering it's perceived MoA. (It's been found to alleviate GABA faults following cerebral ischema)

I'd suggest to those of you looking for treatment to look it up.

[thegron]

I'm trying to get my hands on some but I'm having trouble finding a supplier. Any thoughts?

[inw]

Yea any sort of relif would help in benzo withdrawal, I have windows of a few hours where I am normal and can walk for an hour or do pushups, my mood will be night and day for the better, but then I go back into the w/d. Also have really bad agoraphobia from it, can't even sit in a car ride for too long, I will start getting very panicky. Then other times I am able to go places and I'm in good spirits. It's so tough dealing with the polar opposites, going from reality back to hell.

[Kompota]

I have pretty bad protracted withdrawal(really bad working memory, sleep issues, lack of emotions) and I'm going to be taking a round of flumazenil by IV in about 3 weeks. I'll tell you how it goes.

Please report in about how it goes, I would be extremely grateful. I am considering it myself, but still gathering information as results seem a bit inconclusive, a quote I remember (maybe from someone on this forum): "results vary from full success to total meltdown". Although I suspect the latter relates mainly to rapid detoxes and not to cases of protracted withdrawal. The only issue I see is a possible glutamate excitotoxicity when antagonizing GABA receptors. A NMDA antagonist would be helpful I guess, but Magnesium may be too weak for the purpose, and NMDA are not the only type glutamate receptors, there are others as well.

About Afobazole - it seems to help with anxiety and at the same is not a GABA receptor agonist, which is a good thing. But how is it supposed to help the few of us here (me, c60tester, thegron) achieve our long-term goal of bringing our cognitive function back to normal by restoring the original GABA receptor functionality ?

[c60tester]

I'm sorry to hear it. Benzo PAWS is horrible...

I am also thinking about Flumazenil treatment. How did you go about getting permission to do it? It is not a common occurrence and I'm assuming you had to go through a Psychiatrist and Neurologist. Could you explain the process to me so that I might start treatment as well?

I look forward to hearing good news from you in the near future. Please post as soon as you can after your first round of treatment.

I didn't get permission to do it lol. I simply bought it off the internet and I just injected it myself.

I just injected about 1.5 mg into my veins, I've never injected anything before.

and honestly it doesn't seem that impressive, maybe I didn't do enough. It just made me drowsy and maybe gave me subtle anti-anxiety effect. but could be placebo, maybe it's too early to tell.

I plan on injecting another 3.5 mg tomorrow or the next day when I get some bigger syringes.

Honestly I need to stop drinking entirely which is my real problem, I'm pretty sure that's why my receptors aren't healing.

I'm determined to fix this, I will buy those benzo inverse agonists if I have to.

Edited by c60tester, 13 October 2012 - 05:10 AM.

[c60tester]

You know what, I just realized that you can get very cheap flumazenil from alibaba.
http://www.alibaba.c...roduct_en&fsb=y

It's not an injection though it's just the powder. People make it into an injectable form mostly because it's needed in hospitals and because it has a low oral bio-availability.

But they're selling it for like 1-2 dollars a gram it looks like.

This article says that it's oral bio-availability is 16%:

http://www.thesotos..../flumazenil.pdf

Couldn't I just eat a bunch of it or something?

If this is true then why the hell am I injecting this shit?

I paid over 200 bucks for 5 vials of 1mg/10ml.

I only injected 1.5 mg and I feel a slight effect, I wish to do more of this substance.

[thegron]

Hey firstly, to give you background, I'm currently a Pharmacy student here in the US of A.

I definitely recommend that you buy the powder if you're going to try this. As you probably know, injecting it yourself is pretty risky even though I'm sure you are being super careful.

You are in correct in the reason that Flumazenil is only IV used these days. Hoffmann-La Roche used to sell an oral formulation but they discontinued it due to Flumazenil's low bioavailability. I'm sure there were other reasons as well. And now like you said, it is only used IV because it is mostly used for overdoses where they need to dose patients quickly.

I'm going to look in to flumazenil treatment as well. I'm going to try and convince my neurologist to let me do it IV in a hospital setting or a nurse's office but I might go the oral route if I have to.

Stay safe and keep us posted on how you are doing!

[golden1]

you can buy flumazenil, interesting. watch out for scams though and who knows how pure it is. Just a warning when something is so cheap and available when you'd not expect it to be.

Edited by golden1, 13 October 2012 - 02:30 PM.

[inw]

Feedback on L-Theanine , 5-HTP , Inositol , Bacopa
When I started all of these supplements I noticed that a few days later I had consistent really bad days of even more extreme fatigue, crazy anxiety/agoraphobia, dizziness, I couldn't even walk across the street without being winded and anxiety stricken.

I think 5-HTP and/or L-Theanine definitely increased anxiety and restlessness a lot, I took 400mg 5-HTP one day instead of 200mg that I normally take and I could tell the increase right away so I stopped all of the aformentioned supplements.

The only things I still take are Magnesuim Malate and Fish Oil.

I stopped a few days ago and now I had a few windows of feeling really good and normal, very different from 3 weeks ago. I noticed that taking nothing and doing nothing was the only thing that helped. Again, this is my case, I know these can be helpful for some people, I tried a lot of supplements and found that TIME is really the only healer in this which sucks. I'm almost 6 months off so I hope to turn a corner soon with more consistent normal days.

Edited by inw, 13 October 2012 - 04:19 PM.

[protoject]

I believe I've seen studies stating that intranasal flumazenil is effective, though I'm not sure if it was just straight powder or some kind of nasal spray formulation.

[WannaBeBenzoFree]

I'm late to this and hope that someone knows the answer to my questions. I didn't know I was supposed to switch from long-acting to short-acting benzos when tapering and am now down to 1/8 of 0.5mg Clonazepam (Klonopin). I was going to stop with 1/8 of a pill. Is that a good idea or at least OK? Also, my anxiety was always worse around my period, so my gyn put me on Lo Loestrin Fe. Should I stop that immediately since it has progesterone? Can I never have a drink again? I was going to wait a year - I was never a heavy drinker - usually just a glass of wine every once in awhile.

Edited by WannaBeBenzoFree, 04 August 2013 - 10:12 PM.

[inw]

WannaBe: I would taper as slow as you can, but talk to the dr. The benzo withdrawal is do different for everyone. I'm fn 15 months out and still really SHOT. The fatigue is indescribeable along with agoraphobia, anxiety, bloating, throat tightness. Some small stuff went away in the 15 months but the big stuff goes back and forth. Been out of work for 1.5 years

[WannaBeBenzoFree]

Thanks for your reply, inw. I am really sorry to hear about your ongoing symptoms.

My psychiatrist said I was on a placebo dose on my last taper of 1/4 of 0.5 mg Clonazepam, but I started having terrible anxiety 3 days after my taper that would last all day and went on for about 8 days before letting up. 2 weeks after that taper I decided to taper down to 1/8 of a pill. Now, I just wake up with some anxiety that goes away after I get out of bed.

I also have hypothyroidism which apparently can cause anxiety just like hyperthyroidism and my TSH level is higher than it was a couple of months ago.The doctors just blow me off when I ask about getting off of birth control because of the progesterone causing protracted withdrawals. I was told estrogen only birth control can cause anxiety too. I went to a hormone clinic that checks more than just TSH and they wanted to take me off b/c and put me on progesterone cream. I told the nurse practitioner that I didn't want to take progesterone cream and she said that I have "a lot" of receptors in my brain and the cream would be fine to use. I'm not going to use the cream.

[dylesid]

Two quick questions:

1. Is Lemon balm (Melissa officinalis) a GABA agonist?
1. Is Humulus lupulus (common hop or hop) a GABA agonist?

[inw]

Thanks for your reply, inw. I am really sorry to hear about your ongoing symptoms.

My psychiatrist said I was on a placebo dose on my last taper of 1/4 of 0.5 mg Clonazepam, but I started having terrible anxiety 3 days after my taper that would last all day and went on for about 8 days before letting up. 2 weeks after that taper I decided to taper down to 1/8 of a pill. Now, I just wake up with some anxiety that goes away after I get out of bed.

I also have hypothyroidism which apparently can cause anxiety just like hyperthyroidism and my TSH level is higher than it was a couple of months ago.The doctors just blow me off when I ask about getting off of birth control because of the progesterone causing protracted withdrawals. I was told estrogen only birth control can cause anxiety too. I went to a hormone clinic that checks more than just TSH and they wanted to take me off b/c and put me on progesterone cream. I told the nurse practitioner that I didn't want to take progesterone cream and she said that I have "a lot" of receptors in my brain and the cream would be fine to use. I'm not going to use the cream.

I'm sorry about the trouble you are having, I've seen it 1000 times on the support forum. It seems like these dr's are reading from a scripts, to the "T" I've seen others say it is a 'pediatric' dose or other playful terms that are BS. Yes get the T3,T4 and other hormones checked too. The birth control of course is hormones but the benzos can also throw things out of wack too

[Fletch]

This is for Scienceguy,

You recommend avoiding taurine as it's a GABA agonist, yet it looks like Afobazole (according to the following abstract): "activates endogenous taurine-dependent system of neuroprotection." Do you still consider it to be safe to use during benzo tapering/withdrawal? Are you still confident that it doesn't effect GABA indirectly, by boosting taurine endogenously?

Effects of afobazole on the content of neurotransmitter amino acids in the striatum in global transient ischemia.

Baykova VS, Kadnikov IA, Voronin MV, Ganshina TS, Gnezdilova AV, Gorbunov AA, Mirzoyan PC, Seredenin SB.

Author information


Abstract


Anxiolytic agent afobazole (10 mg/kg intraperitoneally) 24 h after ischemia restores impaired balance of excitatory and inhibitory amino acids in the striatum of mongrel rats, normalizes their content to control levels, and activates endogenous taurine-dependent system of neuroprotection. PMID: 22462053 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Fletch]

Also bumping this question for SCIENCEGUY because I'm really curious!

Hey scienceguy. Some questions.

- Kava is clearly a GABAergic, but a lot of people report sensitization from repeated use, instead of the tolerance and withdrawals you would expect from an agonist. It's supposed to potentiate GABA A signals somewhere downstream, rather than (or possibly as well as) through classical agonism. Have you really looked to get the full story down on this one?

An (admittedly old) study reporting upregulation of GABA A receptors in response to Kava extract:

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7701051

Quote


Abstract

Regional differences in the modulation of [3H] muscimol binding to GABAA receptor complexes by kavapyrones, compounds of the rhizome of the plant Piper methysticum which possess sedative activity, were demonstrated using membrane fractions obtained from target brain centers of kavapyrone action: hippocampus (HIP), amygdala (AMY) and medulla oblongata (MED), and from brain centers outside the main kavapyrone effects as frontal cortex (FC) and cerebellum (CER). The kava extract enhanced the binding of [3H] muscimol in a concentration-dependent manner with maximal potentiation of 358% over control in HIP followed by AMY and MED (main target brain centers). Minimal stimulation was observed in CER followed by FC. In contrast, apart from CER, the potency of kavapyrones was similar in the brain areas investigated with EC50 values ranging between 200 and 300 microM kavapyrones. Scatchard analysis revealed that the observed effects of kavapyrones were due to an increase in the number of binding sites (Bmax), rather than to a change in affinity. At a kavapyrone concentration of 500 microM the order of enhancement in Bmax was HIP = AMY > MED > FC > CER. When kavapyrones are included together with pentobarbital or HPO the two classes of compounds produced a more than additive, i.e., synergetic effect on [3H] muscimol binding. Our findings suggest that one way kavapyrones might mediate sedative effects in vivo is through effects on GABAA receptor binding.

And a reference to another one:

Quote

Kavalactones increase GABA receptor density in specific areas of rodent brain (especially hippocampus and amygdala) suggesting GABA-a receptor mediation of the sedative effects of kava, although earlier studies did not find GABA or benzodiazepine receptor binding. German EEG studies have confirmed the limbic structures, especially the amygdylar complex, mediate the sedative effects of kava
(Holm E, et al. Arzneimittelforschung 1991 Jul;41(7):673-683.)

If Kava does in fact upregulate GABA receptors, it would not only facilitate a quicker recovery, but also provide anxiety relief.

[xeon]

Gotu Kola is good idea for anxiety, you might also try out some adaptogens such as rhodiola rosea, siberian ginseng, ... They might relief the stress and restore chemical balance in your brain.

 

ScienceGuy has reported that Gotu Kola is a GABA agonist, and OP also reported it provided profound relief, and afterwards his withdrawal symptoms worsened. 

 

Do you still think it's a good idea? Is there some type of GABA-upregulation that Gotu Kola does that I don't know about?

 

I have mild anxiety and I am considering taking some of my Gotu Kola but I really don't want my symptoms to get worse than they already are. Bacopa flattens my mood and makes me demotivated and I wish there was something I could take for anxiety that didn't cause the mood-flattening effects of Bacopa - such as Gotu Kola. I just don't want to end up with down-regulation and/or withdrawal effects. I have GNC L-Theanine (Suntheanine) but I'm pretty hesitant to take it because my girlfriend tried it and it made her super irritable and depressed for a couple of days (or it could have been a coincidence, but the only thing she took was L-Theanine). 

 

Thoughts?

[aarniek]

After reading for hours ,can anyone say what one should do when protracted and having had. a 4 day detox from 9 years on Up to 8 mg of lorazapam My two main issues are muscles so overexcited that when i stand my skeletal muscles contract to where i cant walk or function. The other issues are tinnitus and benzo belly. Anything please as its been 27 monthes of horror with not a hint of a letup or window.!!!aarniek@aol.com.

[onemanatatime]

After reading for hours ,can anyone say what one should do when protracted and having had. a 4 day detox from 9 years on Up to 8 mg of lorazapam My two main issues are muscles so overexcited that when i stand my skeletal muscles contract to where i cant walk or function. The other issues are tinnitus and benzo belly. Anything please as its been 27 monthes of horror with not a hint of a letup or window.!!!aarniek@aol.com.

i know i'm late but to the thread, but that seems insane.

 

Anyways, to all other people in this thread that are still active on the forum you should check out DHM Dihydromyricetin 

 

http://link.springer...1064-014-1291-5

 

This should be up to Flumazenil standards only without the negative side effects IMHO. Im not yet a doctor of any kind, so i wouldn't know exactly. But definitely worth looking into for quitting anything from booze to benzo¨s etc. 

 

Please if you find this interesting come visit my other thread on upregulation of GABA receptors naturally from low occurrence or PAWS or quitting benzo or whatever have you. I think there is a lot left to be said for this sad condition