71 replies to this topic

[empedocles]

Three weeks of use now , no discernible effect at all.

[genesis187]

I started taking PQQ again, and I do believe that it has improved my energy and alertness. I reduced my dosage to about 2.5mg per day, but I plan to take 2.5mg twice daily, starting next week. Also, I have noticed a metallic taste in my mouth as of late. It could be the PQQ, but I am still investigating.

Currently I am taking the following supplements and vitamins:--everything at 1x per day--Vitafusion multivites, 250mg CDP choline, fish oil (same kind as in last post), 2.5mg PQQ, magnesium oxide (I just ordered some magnesium orotate), 2 cups of green tea

[RJ23_1989]

Three weeks of use now , no discernible effect at all.

I tried it off an on over the course of a year or so and unfortunately no noticeable difference for me. I used LEF's Bio-PQQ

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2

[axonopathy]

PQQ does not cross the blood brain barrier. Why waste money on supplements that are not lipophilic enough to cross cell membranes? Even if you received a megadose of PQQ intravenously it would never get into the brain due to the charge of the molecule. For the same reason, taking a GABA is useless because it never enters the CNS. Hence, drug companies synthesized more lipophilic analogues (e.g., gabapentin) which do exhibit brain penetration without sacrificing too much of the activity of the original species.

[Nattzor]

PQQ does not cross the blood brain barrier. Why waste money on supplements that are not lipophilic enough to cross cell membranes? Even if you received a megadose of PQQ intravenously it would never get into the brain due to the charge of the molecule. For the same reason, taking a GABA is useless because it never enters the CNS. Hence, drug companies synthesized more lipophilic analogues (e.g., gabapentin) which do exhibit brain penetration without sacrificing too much of the activity of the original species.

Most take it for getting new mitochondrias afaik and then we have the fact that orally supplements has been shown to be effective in studies.

[Marty D]

This article says PQQ "has to be bound to glycine to penetrate and exert this effect in whole brain." How would one go about binding PQQ to glycine?

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9810806

Furthermore, it increases nerve growth factor (NGF) synthesis in mouse astroglial cells, but has to be bound to glycine to penetrate and exert this effect in whole brain.

[polarbears]

Tried this compound, barely discernible effects its expensive and not even worth it. As a previous poster said- PQQ is relatively zwitterionic, thus poor BBB penetration, and the logp is unpreferable as well

[pedr0vsky]

PQQ does not cross the blood brain barrier. Why waste money on supplements that are not lipophilic enough to cross cell membranes? Even if you received a megadose of PQQ intravenously it would never get into the brain due to the charge of the molecule. For the same reason, taking a GABA is useless because it never enters the CNS. Hence, drug companies synthesized more lipophilic analogues (e.g., gabapentin) which do exhibit brain penetration without sacrificing too much of the activity of the original species.

PQQ does not passes the blood brain barrier, but BioPQQ does. http://www.nutraingr...-Brain-Function

Tried this compound, barely discernible effects its expensive and not even worth it. As a previous poster said- PQQ is relatively zwitterionic, thus poor BBB penetration, and the logp is unpreferable as well

I don't feel anything after taking it, neither. But, i am already noticing the long term effects of it, it works slowly and unnoticeable, but increases general vitality and sleep quality.
In my opinion this stuff is powerful.

http://www.nutraingr...Quality-of-Life

Edited by pedr0vsky, 13 December 2013 - 05:19 PM.

[sinbad1]

did anybody tried a higher dosage such as 100 mg PQQ ?

[Strelok]

I recently started learning about PQQ, and I'm considering trying it out.  This thread is a bit old, but I figured I'd bump it to see if anybody else has additional input.

 

I'm also trying to figure out the difference between PQQ and BioPQQ.  Supplements sold as either one simply list the ingredient as "Pyrroloquinoline quinone disodium salt."

[Turnbuckle]

One possible concern about PQQ--it's been found to be an inhibitor of glutathione reductase, which is the enzyme responsible for converting GSSG to GSH.

[Godof Smallthings]

The plastic lid on my glass PQQ bottle broke. I then put it in the same ziploc bag as my son's vitamin C lozenges, to try to stop them from oxidizing. Hanging out in the same ziploc bag appears to have caused a chemical reaction: the PQQ pills now taste like slightly sour candy. Hmm. I wonder if they are useless now?

Edited by Godof Smallthings, 11 April 2014 - 02:37 AM.

[pamojja]

One possible concern about PQQ--it's been found to be an inhibitor of glutathione reductase, which is the enzyme responsible for converting GSSG to GSH.

 

Too bad I have no second data point, but the only time I tested GSH-Px it came back 42,7 U/gHb (range 27.5 - 73.6) after 2 years of about 9 mg PQQ per day (along a high dose Orthomolecular stack against my PAD).

 

The interpretation from the lab:

 

 MEDICAL - SCIENTIFIC COMMENTS ON OXIDATIVE STRESS / DETOXIFICATION
 
Glutathione peroxidase (GPX): GPX is one of the most important antioxidant enzymes in the detoxification of peroxides in living cells. The highly toxic hydrogen peroxide is converted under the influence of the enzyme glutathione peroxidase in a glutathione-dependent reaction into water. Lipid peroxides can also be detoxified in this way. Glutathione peroxidases contain in the catalytic center a L-selenocysteine, so that these enzymes are selenium-dependent. Glutathione peroxidases play an important role in tumor diseases, and possibly in tumor development.

Glutathione peroxidase shown here is settled in a normal range concentration, so a priori no diminished Peroxide detoxification can be assumed.

[Mr.No]

I didn't feel any positive or negative effect from 10mg daily. It seems (?) that pqq is abundant in food http://www.vegsource...you-thrive.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm....j00065-0028.pdf

Edited by Mr.No, 16 June 2014 - 11:16 AM.

[Dalamar]

Not that abudant, to get 10mg you need 100s of kgs of veggies....

[scitris]

easy thing. lower dosage. most ppq products are overdosed. 10mg is more than enough.

I take:

 

UMP

CDP-Choline

Phoshatidylserine

EPA/DHA

 

ALCAR

ALA

Q10

Creatine(-MH)

PQQ

 

I take all of them because every one of them works and they synergists. First Part ist directly for biomembrane formation/synthesis 

and the second for mitochondrial optimization. In other words more Energy.

Incredible combo. ALCAR for transportation of fatty acids into the mitochondria, where beta oxidation breaks fatty acid first into acyl-CoA and then to Acetyl-Coa.

Acetyl-Coa gets introduced to the krebs-cycle. NADH and FADH2 products of the krebs-cycle goes to the innermembran of the mitochondria. Releasing their Energy (Electrons) to the chain where Q10 (Ubiquinone/ (reduced) Ubiquinol) receives the energy (electron) and moves it through the ETC and between the enzymes(pumps) to create an Gradient which turns the ATP-Synthase on. One of that enzymes is the cytochrome c oxidase, which reduces oxygene to form water with the protons. More it creates NO under hypoxic conditions, which leads to disruption of mitochondrial functioning (in excessive amount).

So there is another opportunity to enhance this fuckin bastard through photobiomodulation. Photons of the NIR-Light get absorbed by Cytochrome c oxydase. Theory says (and it makes sense) that the Photons change the conformation of that enzyme (protein) which allows for higher H2O output and lower NO output. Generally increased turnover rate which means more water, what means more oxygene (which is the electronacceptor), which means a higher electronrate. A higher electronrate means more ENERGY. So the next thing for me is LLLT ala lostfalco.

 

Creatine itself is not for the aerobic part of energy production, but functions in the anaerobic to create energy without oxygene. It will helps in hypoxic or demanding states. (Covering the alternative part to create energy)

 

PQQ is a cofactor for at least 4 enzymes in the human body. It accelarates their kinetic (higher turnover of substrate to product), activates some metabolic mitochondrial pathways and through them increases the efficiency and quantity of mitochondria.

 

So with this i have covered all atp production pathways of the mitochondria, but glycolysis. Why? Im not interested in glucose as my main energy substrate.

Its fat. And that for many many good reasons, besaides of Nrf2 activvation and therefor increasing gluthatione that recycles my PQQ again.

But for additional support for this purpose i would recommend bacopa.

 

So this should be a simple overview for the people to see the synergists and connections between these substances and how tulip works.

I hope its enough for people that doesnt want to learn all this in detail. Simpler and it would be wrong.

 

The only thing where im not sure about using is ALA. Seems to promote some positive effects on mitochondria partially through antioxidant properties.

But Antioxidants i have enough and too much Antioxidants isnt really good (reactive oxygene species work as signal-molecules).

And the property of chelating is shitty for me! Im already deficient in minerals :/

 

Besides this i would also include menaquinone.

 

I cant recommend to supplement other redox molecules like nadh. 

 

Sorry for my shitty english.

 

So yeah PQQ works for me

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by scitris, 16 June 2014 - 07:42 PM.

[Strelok]

I've been taking 10mg of BioPQQ daily at about 5 days per week, for the past 2-3 weeks.  I can't say I've really noticed anything.  I am taking other supplements which may obfuscate any slight effects, though.  I also have a bottle of 20mg capsules that I'll start whenever this 10mg bottle is finished. 

[Luxflux]

I respond very well to NMDA enhancers/glutathione enhancers (sarcosine, NAC, pregnenolone) and respond *horribly* to PQQ. I heard that it effects glutathione synthesis in some way, which probably effects the redox aspect of NMDA receptors. For me, it gave me significant brain fog about an hour after ingesting, without fail, no matter what other things I had been taking. So if you have hypoglutamatergic function(or suspect you do), be careful with this one.

[sylvan-k]

I can't say for sure of any positive effects, from my understanding it would be cumulative and over time.

 

I can say I haven't noticed anything detrimental.

[CryptoMan]

Has anyone here tried or heard of the "special" PQQ dave asprey has been selling recently? He claims its the most amazing stuff he has taken in a while. He says that his PQQ is synthesized in a new way, which makes it much more bio available:

 

 

 

Commercially available PQQ supplements are made of a disodium salt that mixes with your stomach acid to become less bioavailable. Unfair Advantage™ gives your body a source of ActivePQQ that isn’t blocked by stomach acid, so your mitochondria will use it. 

Even when you have the right form of PQQ, it isn’t very useful until you can get it into your cells. Unlike commodity PQQ supplements, Unfair Advantage uses a proprietary pre-colloidal and colloidal delivery technology to create ultra-fine particles of ActivePQQ™. This means that instead of the supplement being damaged by your stomach before it’s absorbed, it’s absorbed quickly to go straight into your cells. 

 

[sylvan-k]

 

Has anyone here tried or heard of the "special" PQQ dave asprey has been selling recently? He claims its the most amazing stuff he has taken in a while. He says that his PQQ is synthesized in a new way, which makes it much more bio available:

 

 

 

Commercially available PQQ supplements are made of a disodium salt that mixes with your stomach acid to become less bioavailable. Unfair Advantage™ gives your body a source of ActivePQQ that isn’t blocked by stomach acid, so your mitochondria will use it. 

Even when you have the right form of PQQ, it isn’t very useful until you can get it into your cells. Unlike commodity PQQ supplements, Unfair Advantage uses a proprietary pre-colloidal and colloidal delivery technology to create ultra-fine particles of ActivePQQ™. This means that instead of the supplement being damaged by your stomach before it’s absorbed, it’s absorbed quickly to go straight into your cells. 

 

 

That guy.

 

I've really gotten skeptical of him lately. I'd like to see some research instead of him just arm waving about his next awesome thing.

[CryptoMan]

 

 

Has anyone here tried or heard of the "special" PQQ dave asprey has been selling recently? He claims its the most amazing stuff he has taken in a while. He says that his PQQ is synthesized in a new way, which makes it much more bio available:

 

 

 

Commercially available PQQ supplements are made of a disodium salt that mixes with your stomach acid to become less bioavailable. Unfair Advantage™ gives your body a source of ActivePQQ that isn’t blocked by stomach acid, so your mitochondria will use it. 

Even when you have the right form of PQQ, it isn’t very useful until you can get it into your cells. Unlike commodity PQQ supplements, Unfair Advantage uses a proprietary pre-colloidal and colloidal delivery technology to create ultra-fine particles of ActivePQQ™. This means that instead of the supplement being damaged by your stomach before it’s absorbed, it’s absorbed quickly to go straight into your cells. 

 

 

That guy.

 

I've really gotten skeptical of him lately. I'd like to see some research instead of him just arm waving about his next awesome thing.

 

 

yep, same here... I went from "this guy is great" to "he's most likely full of shit". However, the truth is probably somewhere in between, so I am really curious if his PQQ lives up to his claims.

[HappyShoe]

I've only ever taken Life Extension's PQQ, since they were the first to bring it to market as far as I'm aware. I took it for a month, and I didn't notice an energy increase, however, I also have severe fatigue all the time, and often don't sleep enough/regularly, so nothing makes a dent in my fatigue except amphetamines(which I have not taken for years now). I can say, that if I took it after 4pm, I couldn't stay asleep, because my brain was so active I kept waking up with racing thoughts, and feeling like I had way too much physical energy. Wouldn't have been that unpleasant except for the fact that I was unable to sleep that night. This leads me to believe there is a significant enhancement in energy production, and just that it wasn't noticeable to me personally due to my abnormal state.

[Ark]

I personally feel that it must be mega dosed for effect.

[UKLAD]

im taking jarrows pqq but because i take so many other things hard to tell if pqq is making a difference

Edited by UKLAD, 03 January 2015 - 11:36 AM.

[beboppa]

I respond very well to NMDA enhancers/glutathione enhancers (sarcosine, NAC, pregnenolone) and respond *horribly* to PQQ. I heard that it effects glutathione synthesis in some way, which probably effects the redox aspect of NMDA receptors. For me, it gave me significant brain fog about an hour after ingesting, without fail, no matter what other things I had been taking. So if you have hypoglutamatergic function(or suspect you do), be careful with this one.

 

@Luxflux: I am very interested in your response to PQQ and how you've tied that to NMDA function.  I also have had really awful experiences with PQQ, very shortly after taking it.  I have taken two different brands, 2 small doses and one half-dose on three separate occasions without changing anything else and taken separate from any other supplements.  

 

I would say "brain fog" was part of it, but the experience was more like something I imagine diabetics in severe hypoglycemia experience:  Couldn't think/concentrate, irritable, weak/fatigued, super-depressed or "down" mood.  The worst of this lasted for hours and didn't really get better for another day.  About an hour or two after taking, each time, there was also this unusual craving for carbs and sweets, which is not at all normal for me.

 

Until I saw your post,  all my research just turned up that PQQ gave results for everyone falling on spectrum somewhere between "wonderful and energy-boosting" and "did nothing."  So, I had been thinking perhaps it was a clue to some metabolic weirdness with me.  

 

How did you arrive at glutamatergic hypofunction as the cause?  Interestingly enough, I am beginning to (cautiously) experiment with pregnenolone with very positive results.  NAC is also a staple of mine.

[Luxflux]

 

I respond very well to NMDA enhancers/glutathione enhancers (sarcosine, NAC, pregnenolone) and respond *horribly* to PQQ. I heard that it effects glutathione synthesis in some way, which probably effects the redox aspect of NMDA receptors. For me, it gave me significant brain fog about an hour after ingesting, without fail, no matter what other things I had been taking. So if you have hypoglutamatergic function(or suspect you do), be careful with this one.

 

@Luxflux: I am very interested in your response to PQQ and how you've tied that to NMDA function.  I also have had really awful experiences with PQQ, very shortly after taking it.  I have taken two different brands, 2 small doses and one half-dose on three separate occasions without changing anything else and taken separate from any other supplements.  

 

I would say "brain fog" was part of it, but the experience was more like something I imagine diabetics in severe hypoglycemia experience:  Couldn't think/concentrate, irritable, weak/fatigued, super-depressed or "down" mood.  The worst of this lasted for hours and didn't really get better for another day.  About an hour or two after taking, each time, there was also this unusual craving for carbs and sweets, which is not at all normal for me.

 

Until I saw your post,  all my research just turned up that PQQ gave results for everyone falling on spectrum somewhere between "wonderful and energy-boosting" and "did nothing."  So, I had been thinking perhaps it was a clue to some metabolic weirdness with me.  

 

How did you arrive at glutamatergic hypofunction as the cause?  Interestingly enough, I am beginning to (cautiously) experiment with pregnenolone with very positive results.  NAC is also a staple of mine.

 

 

I wish I could say it way a scientific conclusion, but it's mostly just by correlating the results of PQQ ingestion with other substances I've taken that alter Glutathione/Glutamate functioning in the brain. For instance, vinpocetine antagonizes glutamatergic function, as does ashwaganda. When I tried both of these supplements, they effected me like PQQ did. I am not versed in chemistry, but I do know that PQQ has *some* effect on the redox sites involving Glutathione/Glutamate/NMDA. What that effect is I don't know. I can also say cautiously that I don't understand the chemistry behind anything I take, so it is possible that the information I offer is partially or totally innaccurate (thought I'm not just making it up =P ).

 

Beyond that, I take CoQ10 and Lipoic acid(which as far as I know effect mitochondrial function, among other things) with only positive results. In light of these two pieces of information, I concluded as best I could that it was probably due to the relationship with the glutamate system.

 

Short of brain fog, I don't remember specific symptoms. I may or may not have experienced the things you are saying. I still have some PQQ left, I may try one capsule this weekend and see what happens. If I do I'll report back.

 

Regardless of the actual causes behind my poor experiences, at least there is an n = 1 case where someone with low NMDA function had a bad experience with PQQ. Hope this helps you find some answers.

[beboppa]

I respond very well to NMDA enhancers/glutathione enhancers (sarcosine, NAC, pregnenolone) and respond *horribly* to PQQ. I heard that it effects glutathione synthesis in some way, which probably effects the redox aspect of NMDA receptors. For me, it gave me significant brain fog about an hour after ingesting, without fail, no matter what other things I had been taking. So if you have hypoglutamatergic function(or suspect you do), be careful with this one.

@Luxflux: I am very interested in your response to PQQ and how you've tied that to NMDA function. I also have had really awful experiences with PQQ, very shortly after taking it. I have taken two different brands, 2 small doses and one half-dose on three separate occasions without changing anything else and taken separate from any other supplements.

I would say "brain fog" was part of it, but the experience was more like something I imagine diabetics in severe hypoglycemia experience: Couldn't think/concentrate, irritable, weak/fatigued, super-depressed or "down" mood. The worst of this lasted for hours and didn't really get better for another day. About an hour or two after taking, each time, there was also this unusual craving for carbs and sweets, which is not at all normal for me.

Until I saw your post, all my research just turned up that PQQ gave results for everyone falling on spectrum somewhere between "wonderful and energy-boosting" and "did nothing." So, I had been thinking perhaps it was a clue to some metabolic weirdness with me.

How did you arrive at glutamatergic hypofunction as the cause? Interestingly enough, I am beginning to (cautiously) experiment with pregnenolone with very positive results. NAC is also a staple of mine.

I wish I could say it way a scientific conclusion, but it's mostly just by correlating the results of PQQ ingestion with other substances I've taken that alter Glutathione/Glutamate functioning in the brain. For instance, vinpocetine antagonizes glutamatergic function, as does ashwaganda. When I tried both of these supplements, they effected me like PQQ did. I am not versed in chemistry, but I do know that PQQ has *some* effect on the redox sites involving Glutathione/Glutamate/NMDA. What that effect is I don't know. I can also say cautiously that I don't understand the chemistry behind anything I take, so it is possible that the information I offer is partially or totally innaccurate (thought I'm not just making it up =P ).

Beyond that, I take CoQ10 and Lipoic acid(which as far as I know effect mitochondrial function, among other things) with only positive results. In light of these two pieces of information, I concluded as best I could that it was probably due to the relationship with the glutamate system.

Short of brain fog, I don't remember specific symptoms. I may or may not have experienced the things you are saying. I still have some PQQ left, I may try one capsule this weekend and see what happens. If I do I'll report back.

Regardless of the actual causes behind my poor experiences, at least there is an n = 1 case where someone with low NMDA function had a bad experience with PQQ. Hope this helps you find some answers.

That's very interesting. I got brain fog and sluggishness from trials of ashwaganda as well... but I don't recall those being as profoundly unpleasant as PQQ. Have not tried Vinpocetine. ALA is a daily staple that I feel is required to keep my attention/energy levels up.

This may be a segue to a new thread or PM, but have you ever taken any of the commercial genetics tests (e.g., 23andMe?) I have a small number of fairly rare results for which it would be interesting to see if any match up. My curiousity is particularly focused on some SNPs on the CRF, HPD (homozygous for "Hawkinsinuria,") also CYP2D6*6.

Any family history of schizophrenia? I believe glutamatergic hypofunction is a part of one of the models for underlying causes. I have close family members on both sides with SCZ.

[BasicBiO]

Haven't really gotten any noticeable effect from PQQ or "BioPQQ" and I've taken several bottles.

 

I also agree about Dave Aspey...he's a great marketer of mundane supplement concepts that many of us have been privvy to for years. I'm not buying your $45/bottle MCT oil, Dave. lol

 

 

[pbandy1]

Haven't really gotten any noticeable effect from PQQ or "BioPQQ" and I've taken several bottles.

 

I also agree about Dave Aspey...he's a great marketer of mundane supplement concepts that many of us have been privvy to for years. I'm not buying your $45/bottle MCT oil, Dave. lol

same here, have taken BioPQQ from LEF (20mg) for awhile, haven't noticed a thing. I've cut that and CoQ10 out from my supplement regimen.