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Don't randomly mix so many supplements!

supplements maximum too many interaction

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#61 hooter

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 04:58 PM

SSRIs have been shown over and over NOT to do anything more than placebo for mild to moderate depression. They MAY help for severe depression only. There was a big exposé on this on 60 Minutes here in the U.S. last Sunday. Essentially, they were FDA approved based on misrepresentation, publication bias, and hidden and not so hidden monetary interests. The British Nation Health Service recently changed their guidelines based on the available evidence: Henceforth, the NHS will NOT treat mild to moderate depression with SSRIs, because they don't work.

This is not news. It has been known for years. I don't know how many more times this is going to have to be repeated before it sinks in.

Even worse, there is a lot of evidence showing that they make patients worse in the long run, compared to no treatment. Studies show SSRIs cause chronic depression, they make relapses more likely, and they can cause ordinary depression to turn into bipolar disorder.

Any doctor who would put a moderately depressed teenager on antidepressants for the duration of his formative years deserves to be shot.


This exactly. Looking at the way it affects the brain alone can show you that it isn't a reasonable idea. Taking such a risk for something that has no advantage over a placebo, and might make you worse in the long run isn't worth it.
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#62 karma02

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 03:32 AM

Hi Hooter.

How are you? Ive been browsing the forums for a while without signing up. However, after reading some of your post I felt the urge to get in touch with you.

I am particuliarly interested about getting more information about mushrooms.

Dosages, what enviornment I should set up, etc.

Where can I order some of the active chemical ?

Hope we can share knowledge soon.

K02

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#63 YanaRay

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Posted 22 April 2012 - 07:07 PM

I've tried two SSRIs and the whole experience can be summed up as:
1) causing total indifference - whatever made me nervous/happy/sad/excited lost its strength completely. Didn't help with getting motivation back at all or dealing with anhedonia. Helped with social anxiety, but just because I didn't care - someone could poke my arm all day long and I would just stand next to him/her like a robot. Some people may perceive this as being calmer, but it's a very bland, empty kind of calmness.

2) giving me nasty, nasty sexual side effects - from no libido to total anorgasmia, which was very frustrating. After discontinuation those effects persisted for about 2 months!
All that was on a lowest to low dose of citalopram or fluoxetine.
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#64 Orajel

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:08 AM

This is good :)

"Avoid SSRIs, they don't work and induce complacency."

haha this is also good and very true!

#65 deeptrance

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 04:47 PM

Do not believe I am troubled. I have learned to control my emotions. Time is utterly meaningless. We exist in consciousness, automatically proceeding. I've transcended dwelling on the past. Do not pity me or feel sad for me, while I sit here and laugh. :)


Ha! Nice to meet you. Can't personally relate to controlling emotions or to "I sit here and laugh" but the rest of it is way outside the Matrix.

A very good antidepressant for example is Stablon (tianeptine), it affects NMDA and AMPA instead of serotonin and increases NGF. It improves libido and elevates mood instead of dulling it. Initially it might cause some insomnia, but eventually it also improves sleep onset and quality. It's also neuroprotective and a respiratory stimulant.

It's been shown to have greater efficacy than SSRIs in both anxiety and depressive disorders, it's tolerable in bipolar depression and doesn't cause weight gain. It is also a mild anticonvulsant and an atypical analgesic. Tianeptine improves neuropathic pain, fibromyalgia and OCD.


Wow, I had not heard of this med yet. I've been put on 6 different SSRIs and had to stop them before I completed a week of the starter dose because I felt like I was on bad acid. The 6th and final time, I followed the urging of my temporary psych (in a recovery hospital after suicide attempt) who said my symptoms meant the celexa was "just about to work." A few days later, during which time I became increasingly incapable of functioning in physical, social and emotional realms, I had a grand mal seizure, slammed my head against the corner of a coffee table and was presumed dead by a friend who witnessed the whole thing. I came to a couple days later in a hospital. There were some interesting cosmic aspects to this experience which go beyond the scope of this thread and forum, but we can communicate privately if you're interested (hint: the psychiatrist in question was Hindu and had a devious smile when he said it was just about to work.)

The upshot of this is that even in the short run, some people are hyper-sensitive to SSRIs and/or other monoaminergic drugs.

The info about AMPA and NMDA receptors coincides with new info I was reading last night from the NIH website, which summarized recent trends away from monoaminergics and toward the glutame system. Prospects look very good for further research and development of treatment by these means. The studies suggest that SSRIs might even have their effect due to downstream impact on glutamate activity.

  • Piracetam (can worsen depression initially or at low doses when taken without fish oil, later a permanent improvement can be observed)
  • Hydergine (do not use in delusional bipolar or schizophrenia, NGF booster. works in refractory depression)
  • Bacopa Monnieri 20% bacosides (anxiolytic, regenerates the same parts of the brain as antidepressants)
  • Vitamin D (deficiencies can exacerbate depression)
  • Fish Oil (mood stabilizing, reduces suicidal behaviour)

I have read on many forums about combining piracetam with choline, but you don't mention choline and you suggest fish oil WITH the piracetam? Just checking to see what you've learned about these combinations.

I take all the above minus hydergine and plus about a dozen other things such as rhodiola, ginkgo, d,l-phenylalanine, acacia catechu, green tea extract, vinpocetine, and more. I know that I'm playing with fire and wasting money at the same time but it's a new form of addiction for me. I especially enjoy the research and online shopping for bulk sources (internet shopping addiction pertaining to only one product category!)

So, against the statement in the title of this thread, I am randomly mixing MANY supplements. It's not entirely random because I do research things thoroughly and I try to watch out for interaction effects, but I know I'm lacking a lot of information that is crucial to making better-informed choices about what to take and in what doses. I tend to take lower-than-suggested doses in order to play it safe, and this might simply render some supplements ineffective and a pointless expenditure. Who knows... my kidneys probably aren't too happy about all this. One way I justify the herbal use (along with root powders such as maca) is that they are essentially FOOD sources; we evolved eating much more bitter, nutrient-dense leaves and roots, not the watered-down hybridized stuff that we currently find in the produce section. Fortunately there are options like watercress, dandelion greens, arugula and several others that are increasingly showing up in higher-end grocery stores, and these are closer to their ancestral source, complete with the bitter and sometimes astringent flavors characteristic of antioxidants, catechins, tannins, psychoactives, and other bioactive compounds.

Edited by deeptrance, 27 April 2012 - 04:50 PM.


#66 NeverSayDie

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 11:20 PM

[*]Lots of popular herbal extracts affect thyroid function. Do not mix them or take them in excessive doses. Do not take if you have thyroid problems.


"poluar herbal extracts" is a rather broad category. Would you mention which specific herbs to which you are referring and supply references. Thanks.

#67 Orajel

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Posted 28 April 2012 - 04:04 AM

[*]Lots of popular herbal extracts affect thyroid function. Do not mix them or take them in excessive doses. Do not take if you have thyroid problems.


"poluar herbal extracts" is a rather broad category. Would you mention which specific herbs to which you are referring and supply references. Thanks.


Ashwagandha, bugleweed, and schizandra are 3 examples. There are more that affect the thyroid, some are helpful if you're hypothyroid, some if you're hyperthyroid. I won't include references because you can google "herbs that affect the thyroid" and come up with 10 million sites, its easy try it.

#68 smithx

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 10:06 AM

If you are lonely, my suggestion is that you find some groups on meetup.com or the equivalent.

In any city and most towns there are numerous meetings of people who share some common interest. Many of them are probably introverts like you, and they would welcome your company.

Think of them as online forums, but in person!

If you can't bring yourself to join a group or socialize at all, then psychotherapy is really indicated, starting with short-term therapy like CBT (cognitive behavioral).

Edited by smithx, 29 April 2012 - 10:07 AM.


#69 Capax

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 07:08 PM

Thank you for all this great information hooter, I thoroughly enjoy reading your threads!

#70 killshot

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 08:12 PM

Today, if I were to advise someone depressed, I would probably suggest to try Bacopa, Wellbutrin, Rhodiola, Tianeptine or Agomelatine first, followed by a selective MAOB inhibitor (think Selegiline)


You took Effexor-very very different than an SSRI like Zoloft or Lexapro. There are many people doing very well on low doses of Lexapro, Zoloft, and Prozac. I think one of the problems with the field of psychiatry is excessive dosing for many patients. If many people had tried a 25 mg dose of Zoloft or a 2.5 mg dose of Lexapro, and just stayed there, they may have done just fine without any of the issues they experienced on higher doses.

Do you have experience with Tianeptine? This site is behind the curve when it comes to people reporting experiences on drugs and properly evaluating them. From what I've read, most people have not done as well on Tianeptine as they have on a low dose of an SSRI like Lexapro. Tianeptine is way way overrated.

Wellbutrin over low dose Lexapro or Zoloft? Man, I don't know about that one. I personally know more people that have not been able to tolerate Wellbutrin, that were able to tolerate an SSRI.

Selegiline is another one of those overhyped drugs that just does not end up cutting it in the real world.


I have to agree with Logan, I take 12.5 mg Zoloft daily. I also have taken lexapro at 5 and 2.5 mg (but lexapro gives me a headache at any dose) At these doses my anxiety is under control. And I feel pretty good, no sexual disfunction. I would like to not take them but my quality of life life goes down the drain when I stop this low dose.

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Edited by killshot, 29 November 2012 - 08:14 PM.


#71 Spinlock

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 02:15 AM

SSRIs do work but tolerance builds up and they eventually stop being absorbed altogether. Google SSRI poopout.

Also the thread seems to have got derailed by the one controversial statement out of 10.

There should be a Supplement in Moderation warning pinned at the top of the forum. Too many people here are like kids at a candy store.

#72 anon2042

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:29 AM

While I agree with the general idea of this thread, it's frustrating not to have enough info from any source about the potential interactions between supplements, and then toss in prescription drugs and you have a mess.

I have severe treatment resistant depression and the only time I was ever somewhat stable was when I was stacking tons of different meds that worked across so many different systems. I don't expect just one supplement to do the trick either.

But often the only way to find out how things work is making an analogy to an RX drug and starting there. Things like, if you're taking a serotogenic supplement and one for dopamine it should be fine (SSRI + Wellbutrin), but stacking many serotogenic supps could lead to serotonin syndrome. And other things could cancel each other out, and so forth. I'm not a neurochemist by any means. I find myself often wanting to post here about random combos and not getting much in the way of answers.

That being said, I don't think this thread was targeted towards people towards me in any case - more like people who have insane stacks (outside of vitamins I'm really only taking a few things). But I can understand the frustration of wanting to know if two things or more could be combined without making things worse.

#73 nowayout

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:14 PM

Many men find depression going away when they get on testosterone replacement, assuming their testosterone is low or low normal to begin with. Others find great relief with thyroid hormone replacement, again assuming they need it.

#74 nupi

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 09:47 AM

You took Effexor-very very different than an SSRI like Zoloft or Lexapro. There are many people doing very well on low doses of Lexapro, Zoloft, and Prozac. I think one of the problems with the field of psychiatry is excessive dosing for many patients. If many people had tried a 25 mg dose of Zoloft or a 2.5 mg dose of Lexapro, and just stayed there, they may have done just fine without any of the issues they experienced on higher doses.


Wellbutrin over low dose Lexapro or Zoloft? Man, I don't know about that one. I personally know more people that have not been able to tolerate Wellbutrin, that were able to tolerate an SSRI.


Half a year and trials of a couple more AD's later I actually agree - with a qualification.
So yes, try Lexapro first ( I can actually feel the serotonin wave coming on after taking it it works that well - but also makes me unbearably tired). If that does not work, I would argue to either try Zoloft (I never tried) or Prozac. It is likely the most activating SSRI (there is some evidence that it is not as selective for serotonin as Lexapro so that maybe the reason) and it works rather well for me right now with almost zero side effects. In fact, it may be working a little too well as I am not entirely sure whether I am not on the verge of dipping into hypomania (I notice some signs, the more worrisome ones are still absent though) but if I am, it definitely is a welcome change from my usual dysthymic self.

However, If you have no anxiety or OCD tendencies, go for the Wellbutrin by all means (it's nicknamed the skinny happy horny pill for a reason). If you have them (and I was not quite aware I did, it seemed to be the normal state until it blew up in my face - big time), stay away from Wellbutrin, and arguably, stay away from the SNRIs as well (both Effexor and Cymbalta do a good job at controlling depression and Cymbalta definitely has a very noticeable activating Norepinephrine boost but both have much worse side effects than both the SSRI I tried).

#75 rasgyle

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:15 AM

"Hello, I'm a hypochondriac and the supplement police. Listen to me; my belief persistence has amassed large amounts of selective information! Stop taking your SSRI, even if it's Psychiatrist-prescribed; they cause complacency; on that note, listen to me, heavy metals! Gyah!"

I take almost 200 supplement pills daily and I know enough about what they do to know they make me feel better, and I'm on thyroid medication, and an SSRI, and amphetamine, and an antibiotic, and other medications, and they all work, oh no! I must not be real; find some reason I am not real!

If you find some reason I'm not real, I know you take an SSRI. There can't be any other explanation, because I believe it.

Find some reason my blood work is outstanding and all my conditions are treated! It can't be possible to mix so many things together and achieve efficacy; I heard it on the news and a ghost in a spooky halloween house told me!

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#76 nupi

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:45 AM

WTFFFFFFF 200 pills / day? Care to share that list?





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