809 replies to this topic

[noos]

I am sorry but most of the supplements the OP list are hard to find, expensive, unreliable.
What is your real life experience with these and anxiety? And I mean real anxiety, not something that can be treated with a cup of linden tea or chamomile.

Bacopa can be bought at beyond-a-century, 50 grams for $6.50. A daily dose is 250-600mg. That's under 10 cents a day.

If you have an international credit card, pay shipping, pass customs and pay taxes, etc.

I have severe panic disorder and bipolar anxiety. On several occasions I've found myself in the emergency for no reason, because I thought I was dying and freaked out.

I take piracetam with 600mg bacopa monnieri 20%, with this I get the equivalent result of one to two miligrams of Xanax. Combined with meditation and cardio, I don't feel susceptible to stress whatsoever. Stablon alone is almost that effective. Magnesium didn't help whatsoever. Haven't tried the rest.

Good that it works for you. 1 or 2 mg Xanax will knock me out.

[nupi]

60 Thorne Bacopa caps are like 10 or 11USD at iHerb and their international shipping is dirt cheap...

[ScienceGuy]

What about inderal scienceguy?

Does Propranolo fall under "what not to take"?

PROPRANOLOL (INDERAL) information now added

FYI - I am currently doing my best to fill in the various omissions that I initially didn't have time to include as and when I have a free moment to add the relevant information... Thank you for your patience

[ScienceGuy]

FYI - I have now fleshed out the details, adding additional items, information details and published studies; and including a number of omissions that I did not have time to include originally. This includes additions to BOTH lists. Enjoy!

[health_nutty]

The toxicity of ASHWAGANDHA, whilst interesting, is not in fact relevant to the particular topic of whether or not it is a GABA RECEPTOR AGONIST.

How much does it antagonize the GABA receptor at normal doses? Is this something to be concerned about? I'm taking it to stimulate NGF not for anti-anxiety. Should I just ditch it or make sure the dose is moderate?

[ScienceGuy]

The toxicity of ASHWAGANDHA, whilst interesting, is not in fact relevant to the particular topic of whether or not it is a GABA RECEPTOR AGONIST.

How much does it antagonize the GABA receptor at normal doses? Is this something to be concerned about? I'm taking it to stimulate NGF not for anti-anxiety. Should I just ditch it or make sure the dose is moderate?

ASHWAGANDHA is a proven GABA RECEPTOR AGONIST with a high affinity for both GABAA and GABAB receptors.

Therefore, I personally would avoid it entirely and opt to use something else for stimulating NGF, like ACETYL-L-CARNITINE for example

[nupi]

Two more, fairly obviously bad ideas: opioids and the z-drugs (both effective to varying degrees depending on the actual substance but all far from safe)

[hippocampus]

how to avoid tolerance to theanine? and does theanine have some long-term effects beside short-term relaxation and other effects?

[health_nutty]

The toxicity of ASHWAGANDHA, whilst interesting, is not in fact relevant to the particular topic of whether or not it is a GABA RECEPTOR AGONIST.

How much does it antagonize the GABA receptor at normal doses? Is this something to be concerned about? I'm taking it to stimulate NGF not for anti-anxiety. Should I just ditch it or make sure the dose is moderate?

ASHWAGANDHA is a proven GABA RECEPTOR AGONIST with a high affinity for both GABAA and GABAB receptors.

Therefore, I personally would avoid it entirely and opt to use something else for stimulating NGF, like ACETYL-L-CARNITINE for example

Does it stimulate NGF or just make NGF more potent in the presence of ALCAR? How much alcar do you take?

[Nealio]

I'm curious about what Chrono and/or devinthayer's opinions on this subject are.

[ScienceGuy]

I'm taking [ASHWAGANDHA] to stimulate NGF not for anti-anxiety. Should I just ditch it or make sure the dose is moderate?

ASHWAGANDHA is a proven GABA RECEPTOR AGONIST with a high affinity for both GABAA and GABAB receptors.

Therefore, I personally would avoid it entirely and opt to use something else for stimulating NGF, like ACETYL-L-CARNITINE for example

Does it stimulate NGF or just make NGF more potent in the presence of ALCAR? How much alcar do you take?

OK we are getting a little bit OFF TOPIC here so I will attempt to nip this in the bud so to speak...

To clarify, ACETYL-L-CARNITINE both stimulates the growth of NGF receptors and reduces the loss of NGF thereby increasing its levels within the brain; as well as enhancing sensitivity to NGF, thereby increasing its ‘potency’.

I personally don't take ALCAR (currently) due to suffering an abnormal reaction to it (likely due to my residual Encephalitis), but that is not to say you cannot do so.

Furthermore, there are also other alternative substances in addition to ACETYL-L-CARNITINE that are positively NGF related in one way or another which you could take as an alternative to ASHWAHANDHA, such as CEREBROLYSIN, which has an NGF-MIMICKING mechanism of action.

See the following:

Biochem Pharmacol. 1992 Aug 4;44(3):577-85.

Stimulation of nerve growth factor receptors in PC12 by acetyl-L-carnitine.

Taglialatela G, Angelucci L, Ramacci MT, Werrbach-Perez K, Jackson GR, Perez-Polo JR.

Source
Department of Human Biological Chemistry and Genetics, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston 77550.

Abstract
Acetyl-L-carnitine (ALCAR) prevents some deficits associated with aging in the central nervous system (CNS), such as the aged-related reduction of nerve growth factor (NGF) binding. The aim of this study was to ascertain whether ALCAR could affect the expression of an NGF receptor (p75NGFR). Treatment of PC12 cells with ALCAR increased equilibrium binding of 125I-NGF. ALCAR treatment also increased the amount of immunoprecipitable p75NGFR from PC12 cells. Lastly, the level of p75NGFR messenger RNA (mRNA) in PC12 was increased following ALCAR treatment. These results are in agreement with the hypothesis that there is a direct action of ALCAR on p75NGFR expression in aged rodent CNS.
PMID: 1324679

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brain Res Dev Brain Res. 1991 Apr 24;59(2):221-30.

Acetyl-L-carnitine enhances the response of PC12 cells to nerve growth factor.

Taglialatela G, Angelucci L, Ramacci MT, Werrbach-Perez K, Jackson GR, Perez-Polo JR

Source
Department of Human Biological Chemistry and Genetics, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston 77550.

Abstract
We have demonstrated that treatment of rat pheochromocytoma (PC12) cells with acetyl-L-carnitine (ALCAR) stimulates the synthesis of nerve growth factor receptors (NGFR). ALCAR has also been reported to prevent some age-related impairments of the central nervous system (CNS). In particular, ALCAR reduces the loss of NGFR in the hippocampus and basal forebrain of aged rodents. On these bases, a study on the effect of NGF on the PC12 cells was carried out to ascertain whether ALCAR induction of NGFR resulted in an enhancement of NGF action. Treatment of PC12 cells for 6 days with ALCAR (10 mM) stimulated [125I]NGF PC12 cell uptake, consistent with increased NGFR levels. Also, neurite outgrowth elicited in PC12 cells by NGF (100 ng/ml) was greatly augmented by ALCAR pretreatment. When PC12 cells were treated with 10 mM ALCAR and then exposed to NGF (1 ng/ml), an NGF concentration that is insufficient to elicit neurite outgrowth under these conditions, there was an ALCAR effect on neurite outgrowth. The concentration of NGF necessary for survival of serum-deprived PC12 cells was 100-fold lower for ALCAR-treated cells as compared to controls. The minimal effective dose of ALCAR here was between 0.1 and 0.5 mM. This is similar to the reported minimal concentration of ALCAR that stimulates the synthesis of NGFR in these cells. The data here presented indicate that one mechanism by which ALCAR rescues aged neurons may be by increasing their responsiveness to neuronotrophic factors in the CNS.
PMID: 1655307

Edited by ScienceGuy, 02 February 2012 - 09:31 AM.

[ScienceGuy]

Two more, fairly obviously bad ideas: opioids and the z-drugs (both effective to varying degrees depending on the actual substance but all far from safe)

Nice one NUPI!

[nito]

Two more, fairly obviously bad ideas: opioids and the z-drugs (both effective to varying degrees depending on the actual substance but all far from safe)

Nice one NUPI!

Ur pic is quite funny, i dont know why. Im gonna get high tonight and look at it. You and Mr happy are quite funny. I like the way you add faces everywhere. Mr happy is consistent though, he'll never forget the lmao.

[ScienceGuy]

Ur pic is quite funny, i dont know why. Im gonna get high tonight and look at it. You and Mr happy are quite funny. I like the way you add faces everywhere. Mr happy is consistent though, he'll never forget the lmao.

Are you sure you aren't already high?

[health_nutty]

To clarify, ACETYL-L-CARNITINE both stimulates the growth of NGF receptors and reduces the loss of NGF thereby increasing its levels within the brain; as well as enhancing sensitivity to NGF, thereby increasing its ‘potency’.

Sorry to derail the thread!

Thanks for taking the time to set me straight, I appreciate it (and the the referenced studies). I'm going to dump my bottle of ashwagandha. I think it was making me a bit lethargic (even the next day when taking at night).

I already take ALCAR so I should be good. I've always been curious to try Lion's Main mushroom because I've heard the NGF effects are very noticable. Any negative effects there (only thing scaring me off is the price). Celebrosyn effects sounds interesting, but I'm not willing to inject myself.

[ScienceGuy]

Sorry to derail the thread!

Thanks for taking the time to set me straight, I appreciate it (and the the referenced studies). I'm going to dump my bottle of ashwagandha. I think it was making me a bit lethargic (even the next day when taking at night).

I already take ALCAR so I should be good. I've always been curious to try Lion's Main mushroom because I've heard the NGF effects are very noticable. Any negative effects there (only thing scaring me off is the price). Celebrosyn effects sounds interesting, but I'm not willing to inject myself.

You could always CYCLE the ASHWAGHANDHA ON AND OFF; such that each 'ON' period is limited to the short-term use only, and an appropriate 'OFF' washout time period is employed that allows status to fully return to baseline.

It's the prolonged (i.e. medium to long-term) usage of GABA RECEPTOR AGONISTS that you want to avoid.

Also, regarding the CEREBROLYSIN there is now an ORAL version available. If you use the SEARCH function you should be able to track down the details within the various CEREBROLYSIN threads.

[health_nutty]

You could always CYCLE the ASHWAGHANDHA ON AND OFF; such that each 'ON' period is limited to the short-term use only, and an appropriate 'OFF' washout time period is employed that allows status to fully return to baseline.

It's the prolonged (i.e. medium to long-term) usage of GABA RECEPTOR AGONISTS that you want to avoid.

Also, regarding the CEREBROLYSIN there is now an ORAL version available. If you use the SEARCH function you should be able to track down the details within the various CEREBROLYSIN threads.

Interesting idea with the cycling of ashwa. Oral CEREBROLYSIN eh? Have you given it a go yet?

[ScienceGuy]

Oral CEREBROLYSIN eh? Have you given it a go yet?

No, but there are individuals on this forum who have, and have posted feedback (sunshinefrost for example).

I have ordered the INJECTABLE version since I am quite happy being a HUMAN PIN-CUSHION

[Reformed-Redan]

Just got some Ashwagandha. Will see soon how it works out.

Edited by redan, 03 February 2012 - 12:55 AM.

[Reformed-Redan]

Worth noting, that nowhere in the text is it clearly stated that Ashwaganda is a gaba agonist.

unique beta-alaninergic neurons with no GABAergic properties remain unidentified, and it is impossible to discriminate between beta-alaninergic and GABAergic properties in the CNS

[nito]

Ur pic is quite funny, i dont know why. Im gonna get high tonight and look at it. You and Mr happy are quite funny. I like the way you add faces everywhere. Mr happy is consistent though, he'll never forget the lmao.

Are you sure you aren't already high?

Maybe post highness is still there i dont know. i have not smoked for a while lol. But thanks for the inderal shout out. Gonna order some now

[bkmk]

is it true that

gotu kola increases GABA levels in the brain by stimulating glutamic acid decarboxylase ?

[Steve_86]

What about Clonidine for anxiety? I find it works as well as propanolol

[ScienceGuy]

What about Clonidine for anxiety? I find it works as well as propanolol

Nice one Steve_86!

[ScienceGuy]

Just got some Ashwagandha. Will see soon how it works out.

Please kindly note that I am NOT suggesting that you do NOT take ASHWAGANDHA.

I am simply pointing out that since it is a substantiated GABA RECEPTOR AGONIST prolonged use for the medium to long-term could be UNHELPFUL, due to to it inevitably to an extent DOWN-REGULATING the GABA RECEPTORS; and for the same reason, individuals who are currently recovering from OVERUSE of GABA RECEPTOR AGONISTS (e.g. BENZODIAZEPINE WITHDRAWAL) would be best advised to avoid it.

However, you CAN take ASHWAGANDHA and safely avoid DOWN-REGULATING the GABA RECEPTORS by simply CYCLING it ON and OFF, such that each 'ON' period is limited to the short-term use only, and an appropriate 'OFF' washout time period is employed that allows status to fully return to baseline.

[Introspecta]

I will say that the anti anxiety effects of ashwagandha for me decrease rather fast. Also after a week of use it doesn't cause me to be tired during the day. I would typically take it at night at 1-4 capsules but i've been told 4 capsules is too much considering the potency of the product. I use it more for the energy boost I receive after taking it for a few weeks. Also there are studies that promote the growth of dendrites. Jarrows brand 8% is the product Ive been using the past few years. Its the highest percentage withanolide product i've ever found.

Jarrow Formulas - Ashwagandha 225 mg. - 120 Vegetarian Capsules
Jarrow Formulas presents Ashwagandha. Jarrow Formulas Ashwagandha contains 225 mg. of Ashwagandha extract. Jarrow Formulas Ashwagandha supports resistance to fatigue. Sensoril™ Ashwagandha is a patented Ashwangandha extract obtained from roots and leaves and is standardized to contain a minimum of 8% withanolide glycosides, a minimum of 32% oligosaccharides and a maximum of 2% withaferin A.

[Reformed-Redan]

Regarding, Afobazol. If you look at the details it looks more like a semi-antipsychotic than something for anxiety... thouhts?

Mild tranquilizer afobazol is a selective anxiolytic, not related to the class of receptor agonists benzodiazepin. Prevents the development of membranozavisimyh changes in GABA-receptor.

[ScienceGuy]

I will say that the anti anxiety effects of ashwagandha for me decrease rather fast.

TOLERANCE perhaps?

[ScienceGuy]

Since this is really relevant to the topic of this thread (and not the one it is from) I think it might be helpul and of interest to the followers of this particular thread if I were to post this here:

you never see anyone posting saying they have withdrawals or rebound effects from things such as valerian or ashwagandha, goto kula. They are herbs, not drugs.

Show me ashwagandha withdrawal reports?

...you ever hear anyone say they were addicted to valerian root, or ashwagandha. .

In addition to the numerous instances where I have within clinical practice treated individuals for VALERIAN ADDICTION, and REBOUND and WITHDRAWAL symptoms, here is a clinically documented case of VALERIAN WITHDRAWAL:

JAMA. 1998;280(18):1566-1567. doi: 10.1001/jama.280.18.1566-a

Cardiac Complications and Delirium Associated With Valerian Root Withdrawal

Harmony P. Garges, MD; Indu Varia, MD; P. Murali Doraiswamy MD

Source
Duke University Medical Center, Durham, NC

EXTRACT FROM FULL TEXT:

Valerian (Valeriana officinalis) root is a widely used herbal product with putative sedative, hypnotic, and anxiolytic benefits similar to the benzodiazepines. Preparations recommend dosages ranging from 200 mg to several grams per day taken at bedtime or in divided doses. The optimal duration of use is not well established, although some preparations advise against long-term use. We report a case of serious cardiac complications and delirium associated with withdrawal of valerian root.

Furthermore, although RARE there are in fact reported instances of ADDICTION to and WITHDRAWAL from ASHWAGANDHA.

Further to this, in my clinical practice I have come across instances where patients have reported TOLERANCE as well as REBOUND and WITHDRAWAL effects from taking ASHWAGANDHA.

I should stress that this IS RARE since ASHWAGANDHA is very much towards the LOWER end of the spectrum regards potency of GABA RECEPTOR AGONISTS; however, it does demonstrate that even ASHWAGANDHA will DOWN-REGULATE the GABA RECEPTORS with prolonged usage without breaks; and as such it is advisable to CYCLE ON and OFF such that each 'ON' period is limited to the short-term use only, and an appropriate 'OFF' washout time period is employed that allows status to fully return to baseline. And in instances where the GABA RECEPTORS are already down-regulated (e.g. BENZODIAZEPINE WITHDRAWAL) it would be advised to avoid it altogether.

See the following POST from CUREZONE FORUM (The Truth in Medicine) for example:

Stopping Ashwagandha, need suggestions

Date: 7/23/2009 2:15:14 PM ( 31 mon ago )
Hits: 3325 Size: 1223 char. Replies: 19
URL: http://curezone.com/...m.asp?i=1461079

I tried this stuff [ASHWAGANDHA] and initially it seemed to be a miracle in helping me feel better, but after a few days it seemed more like a drug. And now I feel like I'm going through withdrawals in trying to get off of it - just like a drug. I feel worse than before I tried it in the first place.

I quit taking it a over a week ago. I feel extremely irritable, have aching legs and arms, swollen glands and no motivation. I was determined to get through it and took some ibuprofen, some 5htp, but gave in yesterday and today and took 1 tablet each day of the Ashwagandha, yesterday and today, (compared to the 3 I was previously taking per day).

I so hate this dependant feeling (having gone through Zoloft and Xanax withdrawals cold turkey years ago).

What I am asking for is some advice to help me get off of the Ashwagandha or some information if you know how long it takes for the body to normalize and these symptoms to pass. I'm afraid to continue taking a lot of ibuprofen for the apparent 'rebound inflammation'. Is there anything else that helps that does not have the same effect as these 'ginseng' type herbs?

Or if you could at least tell me if you know how long it takes to get past the 'withdrawal' symptoms?

Stopping Ashwagandha, need suggestions

Date: 7/24/2009 9:54:45 AM ( 31 mon ago )
Hits: 3369 Size: 1835 char.
URL: http://curezone.com/...m.asp?i=1461538

I know, at first I thought I was coming down with something too, but here's the thing... When I would resume taking the ashwagandha the symptoms would go away within an hour or two - ALL OF THEM and when I would quit they would come back. I did this several times over the weeks, take it- feel relaxed and no achiness, some energy, though along with some heart palpitations, not take it and get very irritable, achy legs and arms, a swollen gland under my chin, tired - over and over again.
I do think my neuron receptors are messed up, even though it was 5-6 years ago and I only took the Xanax for 2 months. It took over a year for me to feel more like a normal person after quiting the meds cold turkey (horrific).
No I don't have any autoimmune disease that I know of. Everytime I have gone to the doctor all blood tests come back 'normal.' And I felt very well before taking the ashwagandha.
I even bought a little book on Ashwagandha and have read whatever I could find searching the internet. I was prepared to take it long term, but when I missed a dose and then put it together, I became alarmed that it would have such an effect on me...

Edited by ScienceGuy, 03 February 2012 - 09:13 PM.

[ScienceGuy]

how to avoid tolerance to theanine?

With regards to THEANINE and TOLERANCE there appears to inconsistency in this regards, in that some anecdotal user reports mention TOLERANCE developing to some of its effects, however others report no occurrence of TOLERANCE.

Therefore, my recommendation would be to firstly try THEANINE to ascertain whether YOU personally experience TOLERANCE after prolonged repeated usage; if you do, then the solution would be to CYCLE it ON and OFF, with the duration of the OFF period being sufficient such that the TOLERANCE resets to baseline.

and does theanine have some long-term effects beside short-term relaxation and other effects?

There exists very little research studying what are the potential positive long-term effects of THEANINE administration; however, I was able to locate this study, which may be of interest as it seems to support THEANINE's efficacy in TREATING ANXIETY SAFELY & EFFECTIVELY:

J Clin Psychiatry. 2011 Jan;72(1):34-42. Epub 2010 Nov 30.

L-theanine relieves positive, activation, and anxiety symptoms in patients with schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder: an 8-week, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, 2-center study.

Ritsner MS, Miodownik C, Ratner Y, Shleifer T, Mar M, Pintov L, Lerner V.

Source
Department of Psychiatry, The Rappaport Faculty of Medicine, Technion, Israel Institute of Technology, Haifa, Israel.

Abstract

OBJECTIVE:
L-theanine is a unique amino acid present almost exclusively in the tea plant. It possesses neuroprotective, mood-enhancing, and relaxation properties. This is a first study designed to evaluate the efficacy and tolerability of L-theanine augmentation of antipsychotic treatment of patients with chronic schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder.

METHOD:
60 patients with DSM-IV schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder participated in an 8-week, double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled study. 400 mg/d of L-theanine was added to ongoing antipsychotic treatment from February 2006 until October 2008. The outcome measures were the Positive and Negative Syndrome Scale (PANSS), the Hamilton Anxiety Rating Scale (HARS), the Cambridge Neuropsychological Test Automated Battery (CANTAB) for neurocognitive functioning, and additional measures of general functioning, side effects, and quality of life.

RESULTS:
40 patients completed the study protocol. Compared with placebo, L-theanine augmentation was associated with reduction of anxiety (P = .015; measured by the HARS scale) and positive (P = .009) and general psychopathology (P < .001) scores (measured by the PANSS 3-dimensional model). According to the 5-dimension model of psychopathology, L-theanine produced significant reductions on PANSS positive (P = .004) and activation factor (P = .006) scores compared to placebo. The effect sizes (Cohen d) for these differences ranged from modest to moderate (0.09-0.39). PANSS negative and CANTAB task scores, general functioning, side effect, and quality of life measures were not affected by L-theanine augmentation. L-theanine was found to be a safe and well-tolerated medication.

CONCLUSIONS:
L-theanine augmentation of antipsychotic therapy can ameliorate positive, activation, and anxiety symptoms in schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorder patients. Further long-term studies of L-theanine are needed to substantiate the clinically significant benefits of L-theanine augmentation.

PMID: 21208586

Edited by ScienceGuy, 05 February 2012 - 02:20 PM.