809 replies to this topic

[Reformed-Redan]

God atleast i dont have that weird typing issue here anymore.

What i said was that amphetamine with certain things like memantine and small regular breaks can be made sustainable; look up nmda antagonists and tolerance its been discussed on plenty of fora.

Seriously, there cant be anything behaviorally and physically worse than using amph for anxiety.

Edited by redan, 07 May 2012 - 04:41 AM.

[ta5]

Seriously, there cant be anything behaviorally and physically worse than using amph for anxiety.

Not if your anxiety stems from ADHD.

Atten' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='nofollow external'>http://pmid.us/21432593']Atten Defic Hyperact Disord. 2010 Jun;2(2):87-92. Epub 2010 May 4.
The mixed amphetamine salt extended release (Adderall XR, Max-XR) as an adjunctive to SSRIS or SNRIS in the treatment of adult ADHD patients with comorbid partially responsive generalized anxiety: an open-label study.

To examine the changes in partially responsive anxiety symptoms utilizing adjunctive treatment with the mixed amphetamine salt extended release (Adderall XR, MAX-XR) in the treatment of adult ADHD patients, with comorbid refractory anxiety. Consenting adult patients (n = 32) with confirmed diagnosis of generalized anxiety (GA) and comorbid (ADHD) participated in this open-label study. All patients had significant comorbid anxiety symptoms (HAM-A > 7) and failed to respond to 8-week trials of Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRIs) or Norepinephrine Reuptake inhibitors (SNRIs). All patients were treated with the "Mixed Amphetamine salts Extended Release Adderall XR, (MAS-XR), as adjunctive to SSRIs or to SNRIs and were followed for at least 12 weeks. The primary effectiveness measure was the Clinical Global Impression severity subscale (CGI-S). Other scales included the Hamilton Anxiety Scale (HAM-A), the adult ADHD Self-Report Scale (ASRS-v1.1) symptom checklist, and Sheehan's disability scale. Baseline measures prior to the treatment with MAS-XR were compared to those at 4, 8, and at 12 weeks of treatment. Monitoring for pulse, blood pressure, and weight changes was carried out at baseline and at end point. All patients completed this open-label trial. There was significant and robust resolution of symptoms of all effectiveness measures, including the symptoms of anxiety, as shown by changes from baseline in HAM-A, ASRS-v1.1, and CGI at 8 weeks. Also there was significant reduction in the disability score at 12 weeks. Patients tolerated the treatment, and there were no significant cardiovascular changes at 12 weeks. There was decrease in mean weight at 12 weeks by 2.2 kg (P < .001). Mixed amphetamine salts MAS-XR can be used in adult patients with ADHD and comorbid anxiety symptoms. Larger controlled studies are needed to support the effectiveness of mixed amphetamine salts in patients with comorbid anxiety symptoms. Treatments need to include the targeting of the ADHD symptoms effectively in order to achieve better resolution of anxiety symptoms.

→ source (external link)

[medievil]

There's a difference between AVPD and social anxiety; for AVPD reward related issues are at the core and anxiolytics wont help much; its true however that they are often overlapping.
http://libres.uncg.e...%20AUTHORS).pdf
This paper also goes in debt btw the big difference with social anhedonia (avpd) or sa.

Edited by medievil, 07 May 2012 - 06:35 AM.

[sam7777]

To stop the negative loop you should get to (reach) the certain zones of your brain and open the energy sources which mostly consists in experiencing supervivid images (hallucinations, image of God, out of body experience, etc.) That's why the best (effective) way to treat anxiety is taking psychedelic drugs like LSD (better under guidance of a therapist) which allow to see your own EGO and its constituent parts from outside and release negative gestalts through visualizing.

I believe one safer way to do this or at least equally alternative (and often combined with hallucinagens) is water fasting or similar intense fasting for a set period of time. Preferably a week to two. It is an extreme method, and you need to have the body mass initially to do it- I am not encouraging people with weight issues already to do something even more unhealthy. Look at it this way- and in the past when I posted on here I always mentioned this- your depression is likely caused by endocrine disruptors, plastics, and pollution. Your lymph system is congested, your liver is full of crap, this aggravates and creates an imbalanced over active sympathetic nervous system, alters blood pressure, creates bad circulation, incomplete digestion- and incomplete digestion causes this to spiral into a vicious cycle- because it creates more waste and problems... Solution - deal with these concurrent along with the brain itself. The brain is fed by the rest of the body- it is not in isolation, all the crap and gunk in the body interferes with its functions heavily. But during the fasting, some of these aggravating substances will come out of the body. And, the body recuperates much better.

If you do a very hard fast, you basically recalibrate a lot of your system, your immune system increases, your cardiovascular system and GI system calm down and heal, inflammation drastically diminishes. I liken it to a broke leg. You do not walk on a broke leg, well when you have a broke nervous system- you need to stop screwing with it. Sitting around and resting and fasting for a week, is pretty similar to rebooting a computer or turning it off. Your body has fat- you wont starve. You wont feel well during the fast or afterwards, but as you begin to eat again, you will realize you feel much better.

Personally I found out many of my psychological problems were caused by Celiac's. But the issues of environmental causes of depression and anxiety are much more broad- of course.

Another thing about fasting, and it being combined with hallucinagens, is that fasting opens up enzymatic pathways and recalibrates them. This allows the liver to metabolize things like ayuhuasca and peyote. This saves your reserves of hormones and neurotransmitters. This is why abstaining from sex also heightens the effectiveness. Consequently, herbs that heal the nervous system, particularly, Bacopa, Ashwaghanda, Gotu Kolu, Vervain, Valerian, Lion's Mane, Ginsing, work much better in a fasting state. These herbs are meant to heal, not to be used on a day to day basis to prop up bad chemistry- so to speak. They fix the underlying broken mechanisms often. However, I will be experimenting with a combination of not one or two herbs, but a classic ayurvedic and chinese formula- so that I avoid all the discussions in this thread about unwanted effects of the gabaergic tendencies etc etc. These formulas will consist of about a 100 herbs.

Fasting and using correct herbal formulas or even hallucinogens is meant to allow the body to rest, to give it the energy to rest, which is ironically actually needed, and to balance the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system. You cannot take, take, take, add, add, add and expect your system to handle all these stimulant neurotransmitters. You need to rebuild the train tracks, put them under maintenance, so to speak, and not keep scheduling more runs on a bad line. The human nervous system is too delicate, it cannot be man handled or overclocked. Your not a graphics card nor are you a diesel engine.

Ironically, treating anxiety and depression in a manner that promotes solid sleep at a early time, improves sleep, reduces agitation, essentially a bi polar like treatment, something to level you out, is more appropriate than adderall, etc. You would only be afraid of sedating herbs, if you only took one, and used it in a symptom removal mentality. Using multiple herbs and fasting together, allows the nervous system to readjust, the body to sleep, and you wake up more relaxed and balanced and productive.

[Nootr]

Fasting is too extreme to try, especially for people with weak or ill heart. It may cause heart attack or other permanent damage to body. There also no evidence that starving is good for health and if we take all the logic we may conclude the opposite, i.e that it is bad for health. Our body need proteins. What fasting does it starts ketone state when the body starts to take energy from ketones (produced from fat) as you said. I have been for 3-4 months on ketone diet and the only positive thing that i got was that my urine began to smell like French perfume and i became slender. But it had no effect on nervous system, neither it added health to immune or other systems. On the contrary I felt that my heart was in stress and body lacked energy and i was sleepy all the time. Finally i realized that it is better to use glucose and carbonates as energy source than ketones. It gives much more energy. Paleolithic diet turned out to be a myth. Of course it can't be proved that people in stone age ate only mammoths and nothing else. I am sure they ate mostly fruits and vegetables in hot season and dried ones in cold season. Of course they ate meat but it was not their main diet. Carbonates turn out to be the better source of energy. That's why in the process of evolution people started to use them as the main source of energy. Probably, they are not the only source which can be used by our bodies. It may turn our that our body can metabolize other chemical substances as energy sources which we don't know yet. However i may say that paleo diet is pure placebo and that it is better and healthier to be a vegetarian (not vegan). Vegetarians live longer. Many famous people were vegetarians.
Also i tried fasting one day per week some years ago - I just felt it was bad for heart and actually it does not help you to lose weight coz when you start to eat again your body begins to produce fat in even larger quantities than before fasting coz the body begins to be afraid of next fasting. So the best way to lose fat is ketone (paleo) diet. Now I just eat everything except bread and this is the best diet in the world (and no placebo illusions). Bread (and carbons) is the main ingredient which makes people fat and it contains smth that changes your metabolism. You should avoid bread from shops. Better to make own bread from flour and water as the only ingredients and even more better to avoid any meals from flour.
One of the promising ways to fight against depression is lucid dreaming. Does anyone have any experience in that? What chemical drugs do they create a schield around your perception, so you start to see the reality through this shield. The simplest are nicotine and alcohol (the worst). The good shields that i found are created by phenibut and to some degree by bacopa and l-theanine. MB is also good at that. Nootropics also act as anxyolitics. Actually any chemical capable to change your perception create a shield. The main thing is to create a good shield (without bad consequences for health as the name of the topic). Mental techniques can be as effective as chemistry. If you realize that the world around you is a dream (which we see during sleeping not the imagined dream) you can create a kind of shield. Also if you lie down and close your eyes you automatically start to plunge into alpha brainwave which relaxes your body. I suppose if you repeat mantra or just plunge into hypnagogic state when sitting or again found yourself in alpha state. This is not the shield of course but during this state you can make self-hypnosis and create a kind of mental shield around you. Your reactions to the stimuli of outer world are conditioned by your presettings. In alpha state you can change these presettings and it creates a mental shield around you (so you just do not notice bad people around you - they just disappear like shadows), moreover you start to produce more influence on other people. You can get rid of any chemicals because you already have a shield now.
Why I think lucid dreaming can be a great thing to treat depression is because you plunge into theta state which is more powerful than alpha. Here you should be able to deal with own EGO and subconsciousness (in addition to multiple non-wet orgasms). There is the lucid dreaming herb Calea zacatechichi which i am going to try. However I will get it no sooner than in a month. Finally there are only two things which create happiness - one - the material well-being (richness) and everything which comes out from it (like respect, entertainment etc.) and the other way is the traditional eastern way (and probably american indian) to find happiness in yourself by appealing to own soul (or to feel as part of humanity). So mental techniques are the only way to change mental patterns and to change your mind to such a degree that it blocks all the negative thoughts which means it completely blocks the depression. Hallucinogens (traditional or LSD) act like lucid dreaming (or even stronger) and have stronger curing power. Ancient shamanistic rituals existing with different tribes have mechanisms to cure EGO and these people don't know what is depression. They create inner journeys where the patient deals with the world of spirits (images) curing his body and soul. Just to realize the fact that inner world can be so rich and fantastic can be a strong weapon against evil realities and negative thoughts. Of course we may not deny that in a healthy body lives the healthy spirit but presence of healthy body is not the guarantee that spirit is healthy. Many famous people have ill bodies (awful diseases) but bright minds and no depression. They have much energy and bright minds which cannot be attributed to bodily health. So this is mostly the brain and its software, i.e. chemical schields (programs) (including food diets) are wasting of time and won't cure your mind (except as some short time placebo). (mental techniques may be a kind of placebo too but they deal with memory storage areas of brain and are longer lasting and do save money (not time)). The best way to start self-curing is to combine chemical anxyolitics (or maybe diet (fasting) and its placebo environment consisting in other state of mind) and mental techniques with gradual complete refusal from chemicals leaving only those which serve as nootropics (like phenibut, bacopa, calea, noopept) and mental techniques (these will become more and more stronger and effective with time).

[Nootr]

Hi, i have tried to listen to "First digital drug" binaural beats (lasts for 1 hour) and had a light marijuana smoking effect. It still lasts after two hours. Mood increase is noticeable. No side effects. I recommend trying it and report your experiences here.

Edited by Dan Brown, 11 May 2012 - 02:20 PM.

[sam7777]

I strongly recommend binaural beats. It works extremely well.

@Dan Brown

I agree with what you say. I strongly promote the use of eastern philosophy, reality altering use of SAFE herbs, and meditation techniques. Particularly, the emphasized goal is to deal with ego and subconsciousness - to deal with separating one's self identity from the imposed expectations and judgments (i.e the material western world) and find a sense of inner peace and happiness. The want and desire of a material modern life often invoke anxiety and feelings of inadequacy. This is from a lifetime of built in subconscious cues influencing you to believe a certain reality and life (house, car, family, tv, boat, high paying job, suits, vacations, etc) is the only way to be happy, and that falling short of this will result in judgement of your character. This is a very standard definition of the ego, in that it is not what the world expects of you or imposes upon you- it IS what you perceive, distort, and occlude to be what you THINK you must do in order to gain their acceptance. Because of this many forms of neurosis take place in society. People react to what they perceive they must perform to obtain, and this can lead to stealing, lying, cheating, murder, depression, hostility, envy, vindication, negativity, and bitterness because of the conflict between the ego, self, subconcious, and outside material world. However, some people react to the material world and prosper in it, finding ways to display all the opposite traits, i.e. leadership, benevolence, selflessness, success, productivity, creativity, examples being famous scientists , etc. How can such a dichotomy exist. It is purely because of the individuals PERCEPTION and REACTION to dealing with the outside reality. Thus the ego is a neutral entity. However, the ego can represent the way the outside world perceives you and remembers you, i.e. famous people in history. Problems arise when the ego is sought to be preserved in a manner that is at conflict with the self identity and with the greater society in which a person is involved. In this sense, most depression and anxiety has a strong root in confusion and irrationality. This is why fasting, meditation, and herbs and philosophy and religion are so strongly needed to keep people looking inward. Without both a strong connection to self identity and a strong connection to the outside world many problems are open to occur.

However,

On the contrary I felt that my heart was in stress and body lacked energy and i was sleepy all the time. Finally i realized that it is better to use glucose and carbonates as energy source than ketones

Fasting is not meant to be a long term thing, and it is contraindicated for those with dangerous conditions. However, I also must emphasize that diets ARE important. Simply put, in this modern world, there are too many harmful chemicals in the food and water that affect your mental and cognitive powers. They are so strong they are capable of disturbing mental functioning and making meditation, mental, and spiritual development impossible. If you look at many average americans, irrationality, anger, pettiness, are rife. Look at how people behave in crisis like Hurricane Katrina. Conversely, look at how people behave in Japan during the Fukushima Earthquake. Many societies contain people who are much more controlled in their demeanor and temper. Foreign people see Americans as being extremely direct and quick tempered. The diet and culture are a strong reason for this behavior.

Worse yet, perhaps the worst. Heavy metals are a grave concern for mental health. The autism rate is sky-rocketing, and though the research is very divisive and entrenched against a root cause- there are still strong peer reviewed studies and particularly clinical studies showing that metal toxicity causes these problems. And of course, dental work, root canals, crowns, and fillings are a tremendous source of mercury. Of course the dentists, vehemently denies this, sound Environmental and Public Health Toxicology proves it strongly. You really owe what little security you have to the scientists who work for the EPA, NIH, CDC, etc.

A high carbohydrate, low fat diet, with very large amounts of vegetables and produce is essentially the baseline human diet, particularly in a traditional diet such as the Indian and Chinese diets. However, because of the severity of Western diseases and chronic conditions, water fasting is something that really must be considered as an option of last resort. And for some it can work, for others it cannot.

While a water fast does not promise much, a fruit fast is extremely powerful. Ultimately, if you have an autoimmune condition or cancer, and still have some reasonable digestion, a fruit fast offers you the most help. In my case I not only have Celiac's disease, I also cannot tolerate fruit very well, as I have blood sugar issues, and colitis. However, I am a few pounds overweight, and do have a healthy cardiovascular system, and experience fasting. For me a few initial water fasts are preferable, and future fasts would be with broth or fruit.

[Raza]

Question to the OP.

You seem to take as implicit that all kinds of GABA agonists, GABA reuptake inhibitors and GABA transaminase inhibitors cause GABA receptor downregulation, but allow various GABA production upregulators on your SAFE & EFFECTIVE ANXIOLYTICS list, on account of their tolerance/withdrawal remaining inductively unproven.

What's the logic behind that? Wouldn't all drugs that increase GABA receptor stimulation have this same effect? Unless the effects of GABA production upregulators are somehow permanent, I don't see the difference between upregulating GABA production and decreasing its breakdown with regards to receptor downregulation.

Also, with various anxiety/insomnia related disorders including chronically low GABA levels, doesn't it seem likely that there are levels of GABA receptor stimulation that would be more helpful than detrimental with chronic use despite receptor downregulation, so long as you didn't go off them?

[nito]

Hi, i have tried to listen to "First digital drug" binaural beats (lasts for 1 hour) and had a light marijuana smoking effect. It still lasts after two hours. Mood increase is noticeable. No side effects. I recommend trying it and report your experiences here.

You got a link for this please?
cheers in advance.

[Nootr]

Second day of testing FDG (first digital drug). Used lower volume to have less stress for ears. The result - it still works. It increases mood but does not improve focus. So it acts like any drug - you feel good but your mental abilities remain the same or become lower because you feel happy without no reason under it. I would recommend to use it in the morning when you prepare for a job that you hate and that does not require clear mental efforts on learning new material. Also will be great in sharp occurrences of depression or after stress situations. Probably does not improve hemi-spheres coherence, that's why does not restructure your EGO nor provide help in long term periods (like any drug). What you definitely feel is release of euphoric hormones. You feel it by skin on your face. You feel like it is being kissed and warmth. Also people say you start to look younger. Probably provides anti-aging effect. Should be good for health.
I have a theory that because depression causes release of bad hormones like adrenaline and other, in long term depression causes your EGO structure to accommodate its mental processes to these bad hormones and if this process was started in childhood or teenage then these bad hormones become required for mental processes. So when you feel good you become sillier because your mental processes and the knowledge obtained with them was based on bad hormones. Adrenaline is now a required element for thinking and being awake and for focue. That's why caffeine helps so much and extreme sports. On the other side there are good hormones. But if your mind was developing on adrenaline (anxiety) good hormones can turn you into a mindless body. You need to change your EGO (the bearer of mental processes, the software) to allow it to work on good hormones. This means going into alpha, theta and delta states via hemi-sync, holosync or lifeflow which should help you to deal with EGO structure. That's why use of anxyolitics only without psycho treatment is not effective. First, you feel good hormones circulating in your body and euphoria and you say that is the way i should always feel and now i can become successful. But they are not strong enough to change pattern of behavior resting deep in subconsciousness and with time they lose their force (protective shield) and you find yourself in a situation of withdrawal (physical or psychological). Any of substances mentioned here will involve psychological withdrawal coz they provide protection shield for perception and once you lose the shield you start to feel anxious again. Moreover with time tolerance to all of them increases because the EGO structure tries to protect itself. EGO is afraid of changing. It is afraid to change those old bad patterns of behavior by new ones. That's why it fights against your own efforts to make yourself feel good. No matter how much safe chemicals you take finally you will have psychological (and neurological) tolerance and your patterns of behavior will remain as they were - ineffective and failure provoking. You need very strong cathartic peak experiences to change EGO and these weak safe substances are not likely to provide them. They can only alleviate you pain a little as far as you take them. They should be the background for psychological treatment.

Edited by Dan Brown, 12 May 2012 - 04:19 PM.

[medievil]

What's the logic behind that?

no offence to the op but he's just overly cautious; most gaba increases/agonists are fine and arent differend from drugs acting on other shit.

[Nootr]

8 hours after first digital drug - noticed appearance of amazing focus. Pleasure to read, to see letters, letters seem bigger in size. That is amazing experience never induced by chemicals alone. Had taken noopept 2-3 hours before noticed focus increase. Had taken cup of coffee, L-theanine, Bacopa moneira and centrophenoxine some hours before noopept. The same substances without digital drug have not produced such amazing focus increase. Have an unusual feeling in back part of the head - like it has become warm and brain part in this part - more active. The feeling resembles how i felt at 14 years old. Mood is sustainably positive. Performance increased.

[Raza]

What's the logic behind that?

no offence to the op but he's just overly cautious; most gaba increases/agonists are fine and arent differend from drugs acting on other shit.

Thanks for your response, but I'm not sure that I believe that GABA agonists differ among themselves in tolerance/withdrawal potential other than proportionally to their potency; the pattern makes sense and holds up on many counts. There might be a threshold for actual and/or noticeable effects from receptor downregulation, and if there is it'd be very useful to know, but even then it would only help us choose our dosages safely - marking whole substances as safe would probably be deceptive.

[sam7777]

Yes strong cathartic experiences are the only way to change behavioral patterns, however long consistently held routine and written planning is quite important as well. What allowed me to have a strong shift in personality and outlook was a combination of school training and books/new ideas I was reading, combined with a variety of nootropics, caffeine, and some very powerful nootropic chinese herbs, namely schizandra.

However, I have also had negative cathartic situations that have produced PTSD like situations. And ultimately 12 years ago I was struck with some sort of derealization syndrome combined with adrenal fatigue and depression. That is the psychological diagnosis arguably, however physically what probably happened was severe food allergies and immune dysfunction. Which brings us back to the above arguments for fasting and nutritional changes.

For what it was worth I stopped only buying nootropic herbal formulas and began to buy immune formulas, heart, nerve, kidney, liver, lymph, gastrointestinal, etc formulas from many native american, european, indian ayurvedic, and traditional chinese herbal formulas. I believe this along with things like chiropractors, massage therapy, martial arts, meditation, etc are very very effective at changing quote on quote EGO structure.

[Questy]

Hey ScienceGuy,

Not sure if you'll read this anytime soon but, thanks for making this thread, it has been very useful to me.
I'm still learning a lot about anxyolitics so i hope you can answer a few of my questions.

1st - Have you considered adding L-lysine to the safe and effective list? This amino acid's anxiolytic effect is apparently derived from:
- 5HT-4 receptor antagonism. PMID: 14676321
- Lowering cortisol levels (and other hormonal stress responses). PMID: 17510493 PMID: 16117182
- Might play a role in the biosynthesis of GABA? Also might have read GABA receptor potentiating, but fiction until proven.
In most studies its combined with L-arginine, both usually 3 grams /day and is seen as quite effective.

2nd - I agree that benzodiazepines have no place in treating chronic/severe anxiety, but imo that should not justify putting anything GABAergic in such a bat spot. As someone above me posted, think about re-uptake inhibitors, transaminase inhibitors etc..

PS: "Baclofen" GABA B agonist, has/is being tested for anxiety. Another one for the bad list

Edited by Questy, 01 June 2012 - 03:57 PM.

[Nootr]

Yesterday I got calea zakatechichi and my experience was the following. One cigarette was smoked in the afternoon and i noticed increase of focus soon. I began to notice the details around me and my vision became quick and clear. People around start to look slow and unhappy as compared to myself. Definitely it creates a kind of protective wall around you acting as a strong anxyolitic. I also noticed some lightness in the body and that it became easier to walk and generally move. The anxyolitic effect can be compared to some degree to marijuana in that sense that it changes perception and blocks negative memories from coming to the surface of the mind. At the same time you feel some kind of energy in the body. Before going to bed I smoked the second cigarette in the same room to increase the effect and save the herb and took one little glass of water where i kept 3 grams of calea during the day. It was bitter but quite tolerable. I needed no sugar. Soon I felt the effect of it which consisted in the strong desire to fall asleep like from melatonin. So i fell asleep and saw some dreams but could not remember them - so I did not have lucid dreaming this night. When I got up i felt very sleepy, it was harder to get up than usually. The effect of the herb is still noticeable in the same degree as yesterday. Negative thoughts are blocked, i feel energy, change of perception, the feeling that i am 20 years younger and lightness in the body. Probably it is better to just eat the leaves instead of smoking coz smoking is bad for lungs and causes difficulties in breathing which may decrease calea effect. I do not feel any desire to take any other anxyolitics - calea works very well. I took some selegiline three days ago and it increased my mood highly (it acts during 4 days) and calea removes fears and anxiousness. A good combination for improving life. Selegiline is also claimed to increase human growth hormone production. I also noticed that under effect of calea I am not tired while doing mental work, so it works also like nootropic.

[GreenMan76]

I see there has been a lot of work and discussion on this post. The title "Treating Anxiety Safely & Effectively" caught me right away so I checked it out. Unfortunately I don't think that is the actual theme of this post. Really it's about things that cause GABA Recepter Agnoism which will then in turn cause down-regulation of the GABA Receptors. The information on supplements that do this is very good and thorough. However I did not find what I believe to be the most important piece of information on is why GABA Recepter Agonists are bad for Anxiety. I did not see a single medical study produced that supported this. I'm not saying it isn't true but the only two things I saw from ScienceGuy as proof were

1. He's a proffesional and
2. BENZODIAZEPINE addiction and withdrawl are bad.

I figured he is basing this off something so I tried finding it on my own, but to no avail. If anything I found articles stating that partial Agnoists would not cause down-regulation. I'm not sure if ScienceGuy is still reading this, but can someone post information, not just opinion, on this?

It would seem to me that down-regulation of the GABA Receptors would be a bad thing for everyone not just people with Anxiety and his advice to cycle these suppmlemts is a good idea. I just don't like taking anything on faith no matter how much of an expert someone is.

Sorry if this is old and buried, I'm just surprised no one has asked for this yet.

[nupi]

Basically, you got the gist of the argument to the point: Since GABA receptor down-regulation can result in nasty (potentially even deadly) withdrawal and/or rebound anxiety and GABA agonists cause GABA receptor agonists cause down-regulation over the medium to long-term they are not recommended for the long term. It's that simple and so well known that I am really too lazy to go look for sources.

Though to be honest, I think it's a much bigger problem with Benzos and potentially z-drugs (no personal experience there) than any supplement I have ever tried - no supplement ever even remotely came close to the feeling of low much less medium to high benzo dose.

[nickygstar]

How about Siberian Ginseng, I find that very helpful with anxiety, not sure on the mechanism of action though

[rogerthat]

Basically, you got the gist of the argument to the point: Since GABA receptor down-regulation can result in nasty (potentially even deadly) withdrawal and/or rebound anxiety and GABA agonists cause GABA receptor agonists cause down-regulation over the medium to long-term they are not recommended for the long term. It's that simple and so well known that I am really too lazy to go look for sources.

Though to be honest, I think it's a much bigger problem with Benzos and potentially z-drugs (no personal experience there) than any supplement I have ever tried - no supplement ever even remotely came close to the feeling of low much less medium to high benzo dose.

I'm a little confused by Kava Kava. Supposedly a GABA agonist yet most people experience reverse tolerance to it.

Any-one have any theories as to why?

Thanks

[Raza]

I'm a little confused by Kava Kava. Supposedly a GABA agonist yet most people experience reverse tolerance to it.

Any-one have any theories as to why?

Thanks

It's got multiple mechanisms of action, so both might be true. But IIRC it's not a typical GABA agonist, instead potentiating GABA-a signals somewhere downstream. If tolerance to the GABA-typical relaxant, anxiolytic and anticulvulsant effects of kava consistently does not built or builts in reverse, that might have something to do with it.

Would be a good find, a sustainable GABA-potentiator. Have you got any sources on this reverse tolerance?

Edited by Raza, 11 June 2012 - 08:12 AM.

[choqueiro]

Anxiety is destroying me. Many years sufferinfg it. Deep brain fog, irritability and continuous headaches. In addition, I´m going to get married in 2 week (haha).

I have tried with no results many of the compounds recommended by ScienceGuy: Bacopa, Magnesium, L-theanine (few days). Every compound I tried without mixing with anothers and I give them enough time to kick in (following the recommendations of this forum and from experts and studies). No results in any case.

The last substances that I have tried: Piracetam + Centrophenoxine. After weeks trying this stack I didn´t improve my mental situation. Anxiety and brain fog are not better. Maybe my anxiety raises a little. It seems that with all susbtances my mind reacts with hedaches and a little bit more anxiety and irritability.

In my last experiments I tried Inositol powder from Source Naturals and Sumoreishi from Banzai. With inositol I suffered horrible diarrheas. I avoid it after 2 weeks. No improvements during this time. This last week I am with Reishi. No benefit (maybe more time is needed). Sumoreishi from Banzai is directly imported from Japan and it seems to be a superb quality brand. No improvements. After taking the suggested dose my mind get a little bit alert. I suffer a little headache. After hours the effects tend to dissapear. No improvements in anxiety or brain fog. At leats, my anxiety and irritability (maybe) get a little bit worse.

Any suggestion?? Any product to fight effectively against anxiety??

Thanks

[hippocampus]

lysine, zinc, omega-3 (if you don't eat fish every day), b-complex. you also have to change lifestyle (meditation, friends, healthy nutrition), do not expect much from taking supplements alone.

[magta39]

Instead of taking huge amounts of inositol and getting diarrhea, try taking half teaspoon sublingually...that helps me. Every 3 or 4 hours. Also try alpha GPC sublingually about 150- 200 mgs...that gives me a calm clear head.

[GreenMan76]

Interestingly enough I found this site while researching stuff to take for ADHD/Anxiety. Some of the supplements being sold include GABA and I had read many reports saying it helps. Looking into to finiding sources of GABA I found Picamilon which of course GABA and Niacin. While researching that I found someone on another site who had done his own testing on a variety of substances to help with deppresion/anxiety. Of all the things he tried he said that Picamilon + Piractem + Choline gave him the most stable moods. Which then led me to here. After looking around here a bit I orderd those three. I started with the Piracetam yesterday, then added Choline today and so far so good.

Then I find this thread claiming that GABA and GABA Agnonists are not good for Anxiety, which as I stated before there is no information on why it isn't good for anxiety. So I'm curious if, like a few people have mentioned, ADHD Anxiety is diffrent from GAD. There is definitely social anxiety involved, but a lot of that stems from the ADHD itself. Does anyone with ADHD have any experience with GABA and GABA Agoniests?

[magta39]

I take piracetam also, although not every single day, about half or 1 teaspoon. I also take alot of choline (dihydrogen citrate) about 2 grams a day...one study showed as you get older it gets harder for choline to cross the blood brain barrier, that's why I started taking so much recently.

[choqueiro]

Thanks for the suggestions hippocampus. I´m already doing meditation. I do sports and my nutrition is very healthy (I cook everyday and basically I eat fish and vegetables). I practice sports and I don´t drink alcohol. I´m waiting to monitor my sleep (my sleep is not restful even though I sleep the whole night).

Yes, magta39 I also tried low doses of Inositol (not sublingually). I will try sublingually. I tried Alpha GPC in the past and it only worses my anxiety.

My problem is that in general any compound (I tried many during these years) makes my symptoms worse. Substances that are usually used as a treatment for anxiety, deteriorate my anxiety. When I take any compound (in general) my brain fog gets worse and I suffer little headaches. Also irritability seems to increase.

An example: Rhodiola. Taking only one capsule (360 mg) my symptoms get worse.

I´m really lost. Thanks for all the suggestions.

[gizmobrain]

I feel like this might be a great thread to pose this question. Let's do a thought experiment here. What if you wanted to increase anxiety? Which GABA antagonist would you shoot for without causing other side effects? (like caffeine's indirect GABA antagonism causing shaky hands by increasing dopamine peripherally)

Or would a better strategy be to use GABA receptor agonists at night, with the end goal of upregulation during the day?

(Sorry if my technical wording is wrong... hopefully I conveyed the message I was intending.)

[noos]

Anxiety without side effects? I don't get it.

I read flumazenil is used for benzo overdose.

[gizmobrain]

I'm curious to see if I have some sort of overactive or overly sensitive gaba system. I am a very even keeled, laidback fellow. It takes very extreme conditions to invoke anxiety in me, far beyond the norm.

Sounds great, doesn't it? Except for the fact that I have very low motivation. Having zero sense of urgency to do things causes problems.

So far, I've been using stimulants. This would increase dopamine, and indirectly inhibit gaba. However, stimulants create a host of issues.

Anyway, I don't have insurance now, so internet purchased supps and herbs are my main source.