809 replies to this topic

[mycotheologist]

EDIT: Wrong tread.

Edited by mycotheologist, 20 July 2012 - 08:55 AM.

[renfr]

That's a very good thread but I don't think taurine should be avoided. Studies shows that chronic admnistration causes GABA-A downregulation but look at the dosage given to the mice, it's enormous and doesn't mean that lower doses (therapeuthic dosages used by humans) downregulates GABA-A as well.
For instance GHB doesn't downregulate GABA-B at natural levels but it does when higher dosage is used.
Unless you overdose constantly on taurine, it won't damage your GABA receptor concentration. Taurine has helped me a lot for tinnitus and even anxiety or social confidence. Cycling taurine might be a good idea and remember that taurine is just an amino-acid and everyday we eat food with taurine content. (about 300mg)
Besides a difference should be made between fat-soluble GABA agonists and water soluble ones. Benzos which are fat-soluble are pure hell when it comes to withdrawal and that lasts for months or even years, compared with a GHB or alcohol withdrawal that only lasts for some weeks.

By the way, has anyone investigated the properties and mode of action of hawthorn (crataegus)? I use it as a sedative and as a drug for hypertension, I didn't see any study linking it to GABA but its sedative properties are worth of being known. Is it antihistamine, serotonergic...

I'm also interested in L-theanine studies, it doesn't activate GABA yet is antidepressant and cures anxiety. Is it upregulating GABA? I'm interested in all substances upregulating GABA as I feel that my GABA system is screwed up and my tinnitus seems to confirm that.

As for Bacopa, that one sure seems to upregulate GABA, but at which dosages? Besides the active components of Bacopa are Bacosides A and B, bacoside A seems to be the key to GABA upregulation but I didn't read anything about dosages.

Also caffeine shouldn't be excluded, chronic use of caffeine leads to adenosine, GABA-A upregulation, take a look : http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8242688
Of course on short-term use caffeine is anxiogenic but it might be worth the use if used long-term, it's a blessing in disguise. Some hospitals who take care of people under benzo withdrawal sometimes use GABA antagonists such as Flumazenil and it seems to be very beneficial and helps to recover faster.

As for piracetam, it increases density of NMDA, is that really good? Maybe it is because to activate NMDA a molecule of glutamate is needed, increasing NMDA density can help containing glutamate surge and avoid excitotoxicity and hyperexcitability. If someone can confirm me that. Should it be used to cure tinnitus and anxiety on long term use?

Edited by renfr, 23 July 2012 - 01:51 PM.

[Nootr]

L-Theanine is waste of money. I bought 5 cans and i have hardly finished the first one after 6 months. So if you want 100% working solution you should buy Turmeric in food store and take 2 tea spoons per day. Also find how to get Magnesium Acetate in this forum. These two are quite enough. They allowed me to refuse from any other drugs. And also have a solution for stress situations like phenibut or benzos to fix your mood immediately. But they are not for long-term coz turmeric alone will be quite enough. Save money. One cup of coffee per day is good for health. Actually two cups per day are good. If you take more your vessels will contract instead of swelling so the third cup is bad for health and for anxiety too.
By the way turmeric works so well that it helped me to refuse from using mental techniques like meditation and TDCS. I feel energy the whole day and good mood.

[magta39]

I agree with the above posts about taurine, it can be beneficial. Also found there are better things than theanine: bacopa is way better than theanine.

[noos]

Dan which is the lowest dose for turmeric to make such effect? Two teaspoons like you mention or less?. I read high doses are bad and one tsp is safe. Also, I do not tolerate spices well.

[Nootr]

Turmeric is not spicy at all as compared to pepper, for example. You can easily take full mouth of it without any consequences - it has a rather weak taste. The optimum dose is one tea-spoon two times per day. It is recommended to dissolve it in oil for better absorption. Turmeric is considered good for ingestion system. It helps to restore good natural bacteria like probiotics. I sometimes dissolve it in linen oil or just add it to food. I find that its taste allows to add it to practically any food. Of course the strongest effect is observed when you take it on empty stomach dissolved in oil but the difference is not too much as compared with taking with food. Japanese drink it with water like tea and live over 100 years. Since it makes cell membranes stronger it restores cell metabolism and acts as protector against ageing. My subjective experiences were like this: 1 week - felt like 14 year-old boy (20 years younger),
2 week - like 16 year-old guy, other two weeks - like 22 and other weeks like 25. So its effect diminishes with time but is still preseved to a good degree. And two tea-spoons per day is not the maximum dose, you can take more. What is good with turmeric unlike artificial drugs like extracted L-theanine, for example, turmeric makes you feel like you are you. Like you are just you in the best mood you can have. It does not cause psychedelic effects like fog or mental fatigue or decrease of mental abilities.
I have a break from selegiline now. When i took turmeric and was on selegiline I had complete blockage of depressive thoughts. However I can refer it to that it were the very first weeks of taking turmeric. On the other side selegiline has always helped me to become more energetic. I suppose there is lack of dopamine is in my genes coz my ancestors were smokers plus I grew in the smoking environment. So you should study your own history to find out what you need. The negative side of selegiline is that is causes one negative side effect that you look at the page for example and cannot find the information you need. You become like blind. It also has much more other bad effects. So it should be taken only in intervals and with precauciousness or better substituted by safe MAO-inhibitor. Why I am saying this is because I think that turmeric and selegiline act together as full-feature antidepressant as i have read that turmeric is seratonergic. Turmeric also contains vitamins of B-group. So it helps to protect your budget against expenditures also.

[hippocampus]

"warning": turmeric should be cycled because psychological effects diminish over time.

[noos]

I am trying turmeric in oil with no noticeable effect.

[renfr]

Anyone heard of pyritinol? it's a GABA antagonist : http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2851848
It seems to be helping with hangovers as well : http://www.annals.or...g&pmid=10836917
it shows that it effects GABA system and that could be a good idea to upregulate GABA, might be worth a try

[renfr]

there's something sold in France and has hypotensive, sedative and calming properties, it's called hawthorn (crataegus) however only crataegus flowers have the calming properties, the leaves are stimulant.
I tried investigating its mode of action and I didn't find any conclusive scientifical study, it's more analog to a betablocker such as propanolol but certainly not as strong.
Dosages are between 100-400mg, however long-term studies with high dosages (900mg) didn't showed any side effect or complication. The only possible reversible side effects are hypotension and some dumbness due to sedative.
Therefore it might be used as a mild anxiolytic and might help with panic attacks safely.

[hippocampus]

I am trying turmeric in oil with no noticeable effect.

Medievil once said that turmeric/curcumin works best on low glutathione levels. That may explain it's diminishing of effects - it raises glutathione. Also you may already have high glutathione and you don't feel anything.

[renfr]

EWWWWWW turmeric is awful to take, even with food I cannot bear it. I just took nearly 2 teaspoons, let's see how it goes.

[BioFreak]

I've not not read through the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been covered:
While serotonin might be effective(more or less..) for anxiety, it can also have the opposite effect. I've seen serotonin covered in the initial thread.
If serotonin is high, but dopamine is low, the result can be massive panic attacks. I speak from personal experience, and I normally did not have panic attacks.
And that will eventually happen if one takes 5-htp long term(esp higher dosages of 400mg+/day) without supporting dopamine as well.
I have however, only felt mild anti anxiety effects if any - I never had major anxiety issues though, I took it for depression, but I have a strong avoidance behaviour which in my opinion is kind of subconscious anxiety. raising serotonin did not help at all with it...
However, taking care that serotonin and dopamine are balanced and high enough might be the way to go to get rid of panic attacks.

anyways, might be off topic, just saw serotonin in the first post.

[BioFreak]

Just wondering: Would the effects of gaba not be the first choice for treating anxiety, IF gaba receptors were not so sensible to downregulation(and if the person taking it does not have severe sideffects, i.e. because gaba could be already high and not the root of the problem)? Ever since I started experimenting with beta alanine I've found its effects on my mind to be exactly what I was missing. So the only thing I am concerned with is that the receptors might downregulate.

Also I am missing lithium orotate in the first post. If I remember it right lithium acts as gaba reuptake inhibitor amongst other things.

[Nootr]

If serotonin is high, but dopamine is low, the result can be massive panic attacks. I speak from personal experience, and I normally did not have panic attacks.

That's why i take selegiline occasionally to support turmeric. They both complement each other. But i would look for a safer dopamine MAO inhibitor than selegiline

Gaba chemicals alone make you too passive and relaxed. So while they are good soothers and relaxants they are not mood enhancers or energizers. I mean that they help against bad mood but do not make the mood elevated thus not increasing productivity and creativity. Tolerance is very high and finally you will have no effect against anxiety. Alongside with anxyolitics it is advisable to take some kind of antidepressant including mental techniques.

5-htp causes sexual disfunction and does not help much against anxiety - so wasting of money.

Edited by Dan Brown, 30 July 2012 - 07:08 PM.

[BioFreak]

The main reason 5-htp can cause impotence is because high serotonin levels depletes dopamine, and once dopamine is down, well, everything stays down. lol. That can easily reversed by pushing the dopamine system up, so they are in balance with serotonin (and the panic attacks will be gone, if they were started by this imbalance like they were for me). But I agree, its not of much use for anxiety. Used right however(meaning with cofactors, while addressing the dopamine->noradrenaline->adrenaline system at the same time with tyrosine and cofactors, AND making sure that the sulfur levels stay normal in the process), 5-htp is the way to go against depression. At least for me. 5-Htp alone is not the way to go.

I guess enhancing gaba would be a good addition if it is too low, when the other neurotransmitters are in an effective range. I've been experimenting with beta alanine to enhance gaba, and while it does give me personally the "missing piece" of my personality that was still not alright after normalizing the serotonin and dopamine->noradrenaline->adrenaline systems, I need high amounts of it, it needs to be supported by taurine so body taurine levels don't drop which further puts stress on the gaba receptors and I am not sure but I think I am developing tolerance. Its no biggie though, I know addressing gaba next is the way to go for me, and at the same time I know that doing this with high doses of beta alanine and taurine are most probably the wrong way. The question for me remains, how to increase gaba without developing a tolerance? I'll be testing lithium orotate and theanine next, and Bacopa Monniera thats supposed to reverse gaba receptor sensitivity loss.

Also iodine is said to increase overall receptor sensitivity.

I didn't see lysine on the list yet - there are some studies about lysine and anxiety.

[protoject]

Just thought I'd throw in here that I'm pretty sure Pregnenolone has some Gaba antagonistic properties, so a possible upregulator in the long run...

Edited by protoject, 30 July 2012 - 09:26 PM.

[Nootr]

I would stay off anything that has the possibility to degrade sexual function. I came across the livejournal topic where the guy professional therapist says that all the so called "folk anxyolitics" are placebo. Eveything which is sold without prescribption or belongs to food additives is placebo and waste of money coz it will not simply help. It produces some change of consciousness and the person assures him/her-self that it helps but the problem remains in the subconsciousness. I was studying my night dreams and found the repeated plots which i see almost every night and they are connected with humiliaion, shame or terror. So none of those folk anxyolitics have helped me. I spent much money on the staff that does not help. I am going to try some other stuff like pirazidol which does not cause sexual disfunction and belongs to old chemicals proven by time. Other sex-safe drugs are tianeptine and bupropion but they are too expensive. Phenazepam is the good benzo drug. People claim it creates positive and vivid night dreams. SO it increases the chance to get a lucid dream where you can change the repeated negative plot by a good one via accessing the subconsciousness and thus solve your psychological problems forever.
So it seems the better way is to take strong drugs requiring prescription and cycle them with others to prevent tolerance like memantine + adderall than to buy tons of weak placebo drugs which do not help. Each day should be lived with joy. If it is not like that the medicine does not work. I also wrote in other thread that people should check if their nootropics are working by regularly doing dual n-back in brain workshop and that actually nootropics are not working at all. I got the answer that dual n-back is not the indicator of nootropics effectiveness. OK. What is the indicator of effectiveness than? No one could answer. The only claim that they work is the members' statements that they change their state of mind or improve their mood but none of them reported the increase of IQ or making an invention under any nootropic. So are nootropics a fake also? All of my life's breaktroughs are connected not with any drugs but just with the fact that i suddenly had inspiration to do something, good mood and energy and what is the most paradoxal none of those productuve states were induced by any "folk drugs".

[CIMN]

Just thought I'd throw in here that I'm pretty sure Pregnenolone has some Gaba antagonistic properties, so a possible upregulator in the long run...

thats interesting, i was thinking about phenibut and its tolerance/withdrawal,
i wonder if using these gaba upregulators would reduce tolerance, withdrawal im not too sure on what is its causation.

phenibut is really cool, but if only there was a way to reduce tolerance and withdrawal issue

[nupi]

I would stay off anything that has the possibility to degrade sexual function. I came across the livejournal topic where the guy professional therapist says that all the so called "folk anxyolitics" are placebo.

Which is why several of them have RCTs and tests on mice and rat to support their efficacy. They are obviously not as bazooka like as benzos but on the upside most of them are much less likely to create dependence and even tolerance is less of an issue. Even if it was all placebo, why care? Anxiety is a psychological phenomenon, treating it with another psychological phenomenon would seem fair game.

Eveything which is sold without prescribption or belongs to food additives is placebo and waste of money coz it will not simply help. It produces some change of consciousness and the person assures him/her-self that it helps but the problem remains in the subconsciousness.

Which is different from prescription drugs exactly how? Not that I have a problem with RX drugs, but that claim certainly is not unique to OTC stuff.

I was studying my night dreams and found the repeated plots which i see almost every night and they are connected with humiliaion, shame or terror. So none of those folk anxyolitics have helped me.

Anxiolitics generally do not adjust thinking patterns much - if at all. Even adaptogens are unlikely to do much of that. They may lower the incidence of negative spirals by lowering anxiety while they are active, but I really doubt they would affect ingrained thought patterns over the long term (Propanolol might be the exception and has some support as being effective at allevating PTSD)

I spent much money on the staff that does not help. I am going to try some other stuff like pirazidol which does not cause sexual disfunction and belongs to old chemicals proven by time. Other sex-safe drugs are tianeptine and bupropion but they are too expensive.

Bupropion (even the GSK original) is not that expensive but also not generally considered an anxiolitic (if anything, it can be anxiogenic because it has a tendency to make you hyper in higher doses). Tianeptine I am not familiar with enough (its not marketed where I live, in any case).

Phenazepam is the good benzo drug. People claim it creates positive and vivid night dreams. SO it increases the chance to get a lucid dream where you can change the repeated negative plot by a good one via accessing the subconsciousness and thus solve your psychological problems forever.

Citation please. No really, if true I would be intrigued (not that I am particularly fond of the whole need to change dreams idea, but a non conventional benzo would be interesting in its own right).

So it seems the better way is to take strong drugs requiring prescription and cycle them with others to prevent tolerance like memantine + adderall than to buy tons of weak placebo drugs which do not help.

There is some indication that dopaminergics might help SA but AFAIK they do little if anything for GAD.

As for the rest, yes ideally each day should be full of joy. But if that was the case, we probably would not be on this forum..

[Nootr]

"Anxiety is a psychological phenomenon, treating it with another psychological phenomenon would seem fair game."
Another psychological phenomenon as folk drugs is not quite adequate to eliminate the cause of depression. So we must admit that it is useless. it can only elliviate symptoms and makes you dependant on constant consumption throughout the life without being cured. The effect is so weak and not worth the price. For example, recommended dose of L-Theanine is 200 mg but the actual effective dose is at least 1 gram to feel a bit better. So when i buy L-theanine I expect it to work at 200 mg dose but it won't. So why do sellers not write "the effective dose is 1 gram" - Surely to fool the consumer and take money from him. And imagine that a pill that cures the depression finally is created. What will become with the drug market when everyone is happy and healthy? It will go down of course. So the aim of food additives is not to cure but just to make profit on poor people who look for a pill to alleviate their suffering.
And you are right that psychological phenomenon should be treated with psychological phenomenon. I studied psychology to be a practitioner in this field and I assure you in order to be cured you should have reconstruction of your EGO system which of course has material base as "strong memoires" stored in your brain as memory molecules. The areas with these memories are accessed via hypnosis or in night dreams - the place where the person meets his own subconsciosness and if he/she is able to get control in his dream the person may act as a psychotherapist for himself. This is just a theory but based on much knowledge that i have in the field and proven by experience of meditators and lucid dreamers. To switch on the control in a night dream you should have strongly developed left hemisphere. Depression blocks left himesphere and activates passive route of behaving by actuating other brain paths.
So to reach the lucid dream by activating left hemisphere one must try the following:
1. Use TDCS (there is a topic in this forum)
2. Practice meditation (I cannot say i am experienced in that but some people claim it works better than TDCS). It requires time. Some people recommend life-flow meditation music, others hemi-sync.
3. Read the books about lucid dreaming by Stephen Laberge how to invoke this phenomenon

LSD-therapy got its way back in Switzerland. So there are drugs activating state of consciousnes where mind meets the subconsiousness and that is the only way to treat depression as far as i know. That's why i think food additives are of no use. I am going to visit a doctor and get prescription for the stuff that really works! We cannot access subconsiousness via food additives. If you cannot have pleasant dreams this is the first sign that the drugs you use do not work!!!!! That also means that your organism is not capable to restore its psychological homeostasis in the night dream. The healthy people see dreams where they are the winners coz their mind is flexible to find a solution while those having depression may see one and the same dream or one plot based on one or several negative experience from their past. The brain usually takes the information from your recent days memories and spins it around such negative stressful experience of the past which serves as the magnetic stem. These bad stems also act in everyday consciouss life by slowing you down. Imagine that you got rid of the burden that you had been bearing for many years. That is what people feel after successful psychotherapy. But not all of us have the desire to share our pain with others like doctors or other patients and that is good coz one negative side of psychotherapy is that sometimes people lose good illusions that could be the drive in the their life but after the therapy they become shallow and materialistically-oriented and just boring. They get the protective shield by losing their peculiarities. That's why I stand for self-therapy.

In another forum guy reported to be cured from depression by amitriptilin - the tricyclic drug which is avoided by doctors by all means. What a magnificent finding. It would be my first choice if it were not bad for libido. But women could be lucky with that.

[protoject]

Just thought I'd throw in here that I'm pretty sure Pregnenolone has some Gaba antagonistic properties, so a possible upregulator in the long run...

thats interesting, i was thinking about phenibut and its tolerance/withdrawal,
i wonder if using these gaba upregulators would reduce tolerance, withdrawal im not too sure on what is its causation.

phenibut is really cool, but if only there was a way to reduce tolerance and withdrawal issue

The thing about pregnenolone though is that the tradeoff for gaba receptor upregulation through antagonism may not be worth its other effects, I have nothing to back up its use actually

[Thorsten3]

I found the acute effects of DHEA (also a GABA antagonist) to produce severe anxiety. Probably the worst I've ever had. I know it's bad when I can't look people in the eye. Perhaps it would be better with chronic use as upregulation might occur but it would still be battling against the acute antagonist source which would be the pregnenolone. Wouldn't it just result in homeostasis? But I suppose it's also a sigma1 agonist which would produce nice neuroprotective, antidepressant and anxiolytic effects. So perhaps it could be anxiolytic with chronic use? Who knows. Certainly not me!

Looking past that though, I can't see how playing around with hormone precursers is going to be healthy long term unless you have a deficiency.

It's probably been mentioned already but modafinil is also a GABA antagonist and if you keep the dose sensible it's effects can actually be anxiolytic (reduces fear response through the amygdala) and with the same theory above might produce GABA upregulation with chronic use.

Edited by Thorsten2, 06 August 2012 - 05:48 PM.

[Steve_86]

Phenazepam is the good benzo drug. People claim it creates positive and vivid night dreams. SO it increases the chance to get a lucid dream where you can change the repeated negative plot by a good one via accessing the subconsciousness and thus solve your psychological problems forever.

Citation please. No really, if true I would be intrigued (not that I am particularly fond of the whole need to change dreams idea, but a non conventional benzo would be interesting in its own right).

+1. Im very interested in this.

[medievil]

Strange as the thing about phenazepam read is mostly ppl waking up in prison or in a wrecked car without memory what happened.

[Nootr]

I knew a girl. She lost her father and her confidence in life with this. She was taking phenazepam when i met her and she said the colleagues on her job called her a robot because she was working quickly amd unemotionally. So probably phenozepam does not have sedative effect or even if it has it helps to sustain self-control.

[madamshome]

I would not describe phenazepam as an unconventional benzo, it attaches to the same recepeptors as xanax and seems to have a short half, so no advantage. One anectodal report does not change the biochemistry.
I have just finished a 2 year taper off prescription valium & have found bacopa, inositol, inosine & clonidine to be most helpful.
IMO, due to the receptor tolerance factor, there are no safe benzos currently available. The more subtle chemicals that work onGABA via other mechanisms are a better bet.

[canz]

For example, recommended dose of L-Theanine is 200 mg but the actual effective dose is at least 1 gram to feel a bit better. So when i buy L-theanine I expect it to work at 200 mg dose but it won't. So why do sellers not write "the effective dose is 1 gram"

I suffer from bouts of depression and anxiety and have had success with l-theanine at 200mg twice to three times daily. Prior to l-theanine I experienced random feelings of sadness, anxiousness, irritability and apathy. I noticed results hours after my first dose, but waited a few days to judge effects in order to rule out placebo. Since taking it I have noticed that I am more patient and generally in a more positive mood. I am more agreeable and have had less instances of irritability or anxiety. There has been some instances that thoughts of anxiousness begin to develop but doesn't follow through. I experience a more relaxed state of mind without feeling sedated. There were times; however, when I would "space out" but those were after days that I did not sleep well so I can't attribute that to the theanine. After a few days by itself I experimented with 50mg of caffeine along with the 200mg dose with positive effects. I am sensitive to stimulants and normally experience the negative effects more so than the positive. While on theanine and caffeine I experienced increase focus and motivation without the jitters, anxiety or crash that typically comes with stimulant use. This was a basic experiment to test how I handle stimulants while on theanine. My next will be to add the CILTEP stack.

So comparing your experience and opinion on l-theanine against mine, I shall say YMMV.

[Nootr]

Do you mean this stack?

• Forskolin 10-20mg - Once Daily
• Artichoke Extract 500mg - Once Daily
• Stimulant or Precursor (Amino Acid)

10-20 mg of forkolin 100% extract or 20% extract?

Edited by Dan Brown, 16 August 2012 - 09:44 AM.

[gizmobrain]

Do you mean this stack?

• Forskolin 10-20mg - Once Daily
• Artichoke Extract 500mg - Once Daily
• Stimulant or Precursor (Amino Acid)

How does this stack work and what are the mechanisms?

That question has a long answer: CILTEP Thread