809 replies to this topic

[Strelok]

However, non CS-4 formulations are utterly useless and avoid all and any Chinese vendors for this product.

Do you know if a product will for sure state that it's from the CS-4 strain? I'm currently using this cordyceps product:

http://www.newchapte...hield-cordyceps

I just got it a couple days ago, and I'm wondering if it'll be worth a damn.

[triffid113]

When I tried theanine it made me irrationally angry. Positively furious. Like, punching a stranger in the face for chewing too loudly. I was breaking shit, throwing objects against walls, etc. I've never acted like this even on adderall or alcohol, so I don't know what that is supposed to be? I'm 100% sure it's theanine because I was dumb enough to try this a second time, thankfully with a lower dosage.

idk anything about this except that someone told me her doctor told her to take B2 for anger issues. So it would be interesting to see if you took theanine with an extra B2 supplement if that helped.

Edited by triffid113, 27 February 2013 - 03:34 PM.

[Agomelatinehope]

Thanks for the thread

I stopped taking benzos 1 week ago and the last thing I want to do is to mess with my GABA receptors.

I've just bought a bottle of Relora and another of L-Theanine.

(Now Foods and Source Naturals)

[quantumcipher]

Awesome compilation. I see a lot of info I had already heard/read of.. A few I had not.. And some new (to me) data on others I found rather fascinating, in particular regarding the up-regulation of GABA receptors with Bacopa & the up-regulation of 5-HT receptors with Inositol. . I had known for some time Inositol was serotonergic, but was unsure via what mechanism exactly. This makes sense as it does not appear to be an agonist nor re-uptake inhibitor.

There's another novel pharmaceutical antidepressant & anxiolytic you may want to add to your list.. Mirtazapine.

I've found Mirtazapine to be one of the most effective prescription anxiolytics thus far, benzodiazapines aside. The addition of the SNRI Venlafaxine (Effexor) has proven even more useful, or vice versa as I began taking Effexor prior, after trying three SSRI's with minimal benefit/efficacy. While the SNRI was moderately more effective, as an anxiolytic, as well as coping with chronic fatigue due to its noradranergic effects. Mirtazapine & Venlafaxine have an interesting synergy, to say the least.. I've noticed the two tend to counteract the side-effects of one another while maximizing efficacy.

Mirtazapine can increase CNS levels of serotonin & epinephrine to a modest extent via pre-synaptic alpha2-adrenergic receptor antagonism (that receptor normally inhibiting the release of 5-HT & NOR, hence causing an 'indirect agonist' or rather modest disinhibition of noradranergic & serotonergic transmission, respectively). This was at first, thought to be responsible for its antidepressant & anxiolytic effects. It is now known that in addition to the aforementioned mechanism of action, it functions as an antagonist/inverse agonist at various 5-HT receptors, notably 5-HT2A, 5-HT2B, 5-HT2C & 5-HT3, all of which can produce a mild to moderate anxiolytic effect when blocked.. Mirtazapine is also a fairly potent H1 receptor agonist, causing sedation, so it best to dose at night. The drowsiness likely contributes to anxiolytic effects. I have personally noticed an often profound anxiolytic (both for panic & generalized in particular) effect, as well as a fairly potent anti-depressant/mildly mood elevating effect upon dosing, even with only 1 dose and having not taken it prior.. It does however, cause one to have an often voracious appetite ~1 hour after dosing, and hence, cause weight gain. I would not recommend this for anyone who is overweight or hypoglycemic. Venlafaxine, on the other hand, tends to cause a sharp decrease in appetite. I've found the Mirtazapine's increase in appetite slightly stronger than Venlafaxine's decrease, either of which being much more potent if taken alone however.

You may also want to look into L-Lysine. It has another novel mechanism of action: a 5-HT4 antagonist, in particular in the Amygdala. It has also been found to interact with GABA receptors, possibly via up-regulation:

"Fortification of grains with lysine was shown to reduce markers of anxiety, including Cortisol levels, and also led to potentiation of benzodiazepine receptors (common targets of anxiolytic drugs such as Xanax and Ativan)."

Source:

Lysine fortification reduces anxiety and lessens stress in family members in economically weak communities in Northwest Syria

→ source (external link)

Additional resources:

L-lysine And Amygdala

L-Lysine and Anxiety

L-lysine is a barbiturate-like anticonvulsant and modulator of the benzodiazepine receptor

L-Lysine acts like a partial serotonin receptor 4 antagonist and inhibits serotonin-mediated intestinal pathologies and anxiety in rats

Thanks for the thread

I stopped taking benzos 1 week ago and the last thing I want to do is to mess with my GABA receptors.

I've just bought a bottle of Relora and another of L-Theanine.

(Now Foods and Source Naturals)

As mentioned above, Bacopa has the ability to up-regulate GABA receptors, mitigating memory-related side effects of GABAergics, benzodiazapines to be speific..

Adding Bacopa to your stack may prove beneficial, perhaps extremely beneficial, due to this novel mechanism of action. It should not cause any additional down-regulation as most GABAergic, and will, in fact, have the opposite effect. As an anxiolytic, it may prove useful for coping with benzodiazepine withdrawal, or when tapering off one gradually, or in countering anxiety in general.

I recently picked up a bottle of Bacopa to try for myself.. I've found a mild-to-modest anxiolytic effect and rather mild effect on memory and cognition (so far). This is after about a week of administration, gradually increasing my dosage for this initial period. I began with 500mg twice a day, now up about 1.5g per day divided into three doses.. I may keep this as my target dosage and monitor any futher progress or lack thereof from here. If I don't find any additional benefit after a week or two, I may increase the dosage by another 1/3q or 500mg to 2g daily and see what happens from there..

You can read more about Bacopa starting with OP's analysis, as well as here:

http://examine.com/s...acopa Monnieri/

http://altmedicine.a...fits_bacopa.htm

http://www.bacopin.c...lyticeffect.htm

http://www.raysahelian.com/bacopa.html

Edited by quantumcipher, 02 April 2013 - 12:26 AM.

[Agomelatinehope]

What the hell. Wasn't relora supposed to be safe?

Magnolol, a major bioactive constituent of the bark of Magnolia officinalis, exerts antiepileptic effects via the GABA/benzodiazepine receptor complex in mice.


http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21518336

[Redux]

As mentioned above, Bacopa has the ability to up-regulate GABA receptors, mitigating memory-related side effects of GABAergics, benzodiazapines to be speific..

Adding Bacopa to your stack may prove beneficial, perhaps extremely beneficial, due to this novel mechanism of action. It should not cause any additional down-regulation as most GABAergic, and will, in fact, have the opposite effect. As an anxiolytic, it may prove useful for coping with benzodiazepine withdrawal, or when tapering off one gradually, or in countering anxiety in general.

I recently picked up a bottle of Bacopa to try for myself.. I've found a mild-to-modest anxiolytic effect and rather mild effect on memory and cognition (so far). This is after about a week of administration, gradually increasing my dosage for this initial period. I began with 500mg twice a day, now up about 1.5g per day divided into three doses.. I may keep this as my target dosage and monitor any futher progress or lack thereof from here. If I don't find any additional benefit after a week or two, I may increase the dosage by another 1/3q or 500mg to 2g daily and see what happens from there..

You can read more about Bacopa starting with OP's analysis, as well as here:

http://examine.com/s...acopa Monnieri/

http://altmedicine.a...fits_bacopa.htm

http://www.bacopin.c...lyticeffect.htm

http://www.raysahelian.com/bacopa.html

I have tried Bacopa hoping to upregulate my GABA levels, althought came to find that its effects are somewhat psychedelic! I get really sleepy taken at night, but effects remain for next day with this really strange attention level on a pair with psychedelic level... Anyone had the same?

[machete234]

It feels serotonergic maybe a bit like 5HTP without the drowsiness that I got from 5HTP so Bacopa can make me feel a bit different or strange but nothing serious.

When you get real psychedelic effects from bacopa thats not normal


Regarding the the guide in the first posting:

Is science guy not a bit over cautios with these GABA agonists?
I mean through that mechanism is how anxyolosis works and something like california poppy probably wont mess you up.
When I tried it years ago I couldnt really tell if I had consumed lawn cuttings and the sedation is a minor allergic reaction or if this is actually sedating.
Just to give you an idea how mild the GABA agonism should be if there is anything at all.

Valerian also wont make you withdraw when you stop taking it, the same with taurine where people dont get a strange anxiety when they dont drink their red bull.

Edited by machete234, 06 April 2013 - 12:42 PM.

[norepinephrine]

Anyone have experience with SN Theanine Serene for anxiety/sleep? Going by ScienceGuy's original post, it looks to be a mixed bag; magnesium, relora and theanine are non-GABA agonists (and theanine shows evidence of upregulating brain levels of GABA), whereas taurine and GABA are both agonists (though it's doubtful what level of exogenously-dosed GABA actually crosses the BBB). So far I'm having pretty good luck using it as a sleep aid, and the effect almost feels narcotic when it hits, but there's a considerable amount of morning grogginess lasting in the absence of my tried/true altertness-enhancing methods (e.g., running, cold showers, espresso - preferably all in respective combination).

[nupi]

It did do nothing much for me... In theory, the combo is sound enough though.

I think ScienceGuy is being a bit overcautious when it comes to the weaker gabaergics but that might just be me.

Edited by nupi, 07 April 2013 - 01:57 PM.

[vtrader]

The best treatment for my anxiety attacks have been self-therapy. As reported in another thread, I started getting anxiety/panic attacks as a by product of my depression. The best treatment I found has been to accept what is happening to you and embrace it, let the feeling pass through, enjoy the ride. Become aware of what is happening to your body and just let it play out. Practice everyday and within a two weeks I never got another major panic attack. I stll get some symptoms, but nothing major that makes me feel like i am dying.
The only other issue now is that I have to be careful of what supps I take and at what dosage, for example I use to take l-tyrosine for energy, but now I only take it in the morning at minimal dose now and then, anything regular just speeds up my symptoms latter in the day.

[magta39]

If you are anxiety prone, any l-tyrosine just makes things worse.

[quantumcipher]

It feels serotonergic maybe a bit like 5HTP without the drowsiness that I got from 5HTP so Bacopa can make me feel a bit different or strange but nothing serious.

When you get real psychedelic effects from bacopa thats not normal


Regarding the the guide in the first posting:

Is science guy not a bit over cautios with these GABA agonists?
I mean through that mechanism is how anxyolosis works and something like california poppy probably wont mess you up.
When I tried it years ago I couldnt really tell if I had consumed lawn cuttings and the sedation is a minor allergic reaction or if this is actually sedating.
Just to give you an idea how mild the GABA agonism should be if there is anything at all.

Valerian also wont make you withdraw when you stop taking it, the same with taurine where people dont get a strange anxiety when they dont drink their red bull.

I agree that not all GABAergics are created equal. The herbal vs. pharmaceutical varieties aren't nearly as potent, nor as prone to causing withdrawal in general.

As for Bacopa, I haven't experienced any psychedelic effect with that, nor would anticipate to necessarily.. So far I've observed a modest improvement in cognition (entirely subjective), perhaps a little more "energy" and mild to moderate anxiolysis, primarily. The only oddity I've noticed with Bacopa (from my perspective) is vivid dreams, which seems to be fading away the longer I take it. I've observed that effect prior with certain antidepressants (SSRIs, an SNRI & the 5-HT antagonist Mirtazapine), however not so much with GABAergics.. I suppose that may be attributed to it up-regulating the GABA receptor rather functioning as a typical GABAergic would, in that regard.

If you are anxiety prone, any l-tyrosine just makes things worse.

With L-Tyrosine, I experienced a subtle anxiolytic effect, but only at high doses. As with any supplement, or prescription, your mileage may & likely will vary. What may work out well for some, can produce paradoxical effects in others. I would conject it may be due to your CNS individuality or psyche not being as receptive to 5-HT4 antagonism as others may be. Then again, it could be another factor all together..

[nupi]

The dreams on Bacopa are due to the serotonergic component (which is why it is similar to SSRIs) but I have found that the serotonergic upside fades and leaves you with mostly lethargy (at least with SSRIs, the upside stays, too)

[Galaxyshock]

Bacopa agonizes 5HT2A that many psychedelics target aswell. It can induce a mild psychedelic-like altered state in high doses or with 5-htp / other serotonin increaser but no hallucinations or anything just experiencing everything very vividly and feel like you have this "aura".

Edited by Galaxyshock, 08 April 2013 - 11:54 AM.

[protoject]

The best treatment for my anxiety attacks have been self-therapy. As reported in another thread, I started getting anxiety/panic attacks as a by product of my depression. The best treatment I found has been to accept what is happening to you and embrace it, let the feeling pass through, enjoy the ride. Become aware of what is happening to your body and just let it play out. Practice everyday and within a two weeks I never got another major panic attack. I stll get some symptoms, but nothing major that makes me feel like i am dying.
The only other issue now is that I have to be careful of what supps I take and at what dosage, for example I use to take l-tyrosine for energy, but now I only take it in the morning at minimal dose now and then, anything regular just speeds up my symptoms latter in the day.

I find this works only for coping with the problem and not actually helping all that much. Like my body just goes into an automatic fight or flight mode and i experience pretty bad garbling of the mind and i feel like i need to lay down because it's so overwhelming. But the source of it isn't my mind or some "personal" issue, it's my body and brain that is actually going haywire on me.

But what you say still makes sense, it's better not to make it worse than it already is... you really do have to just live with it rather than add an extra layer of panic. It is only natural to have that extra layer of panic though , I mean it practically disables a person from living their life or doing anything they want to do and you have to live life on a totally different level.

loss of power over your own life.

[vtrader]

I know the feeling well, when I first had my anxiety attack, I initially thought that I had OD on a supplement and was having a bad reaction, I felt I was going to throw up, my heart started to race, my body temperature shot up, I had diarriah every 20 minutes, I could not think, every time I did I thought I was going crazy. For the next two days I would get multiple attacks all day, I thought I could never get to sleep, luckly I was on my day off.
when I told my threapist he just smilled and said don't worry about, it ain't going to kill you, learn to have fun with it.
I then just started accepting it, when it starts up I just tell my self "oh just another panic attack I am having now", I would just sit there and feel it happen, by accepting it and not trying to get rid of it, it went away a lot quicker. After a few minutes I then started doing deep breathing exercises, followed by doing something fun.
Like I said I still get some of the symptoms now and then, but I can stop it from being a full blown attack by doing the above.

The best treatment for my anxiety attacks have been self-therapy. As reported in another thread, I started getting anxiety/panic attacks as a by product of my depression. The best treatment I found has been to accept what is happening to you and embrace it, let the feeling pass through, enjoy the ride. Become aware of what is happening to your body and just let it play out. Practice everyday and within a two weeks I never got another major panic attack. I stll get some symptoms, but nothing major that makes me feel like i am dying.
The only other issue now is that I have to be careful of what supps I take and at what dosage, for example I use to take l-tyrosine for energy, but now I only take it in the morning at minimal dose now and then, anything regular just speeds up my symptoms latter in the day.

I find this works only for coping with the problem and not actually helping all that much. Like my body just goes into an automatic fight or flight mode and i experience pretty bad garbling of the mind and i feel like i need to lay down because it's so overwhelming. But the source of it isn't my mind or some "personal" issue, it's my body and brain that is actually going haywire on me.

But what you say still makes sense, it's better not to make it worse than it already is... you really do have to just live with it rather than add an extra layer of panic. It is only natural to have that extra layer of panic though , I mean it practically disables a person from living their life or doing anything they want to do and you have to live life on a totally different level.

loss of power over your own life.

[quantumcipher]

The dreams on Bacopa are due to the serotonergic component (which is why it is similar to SSRIs) but I have found that the serotonergic upside fades and leaves you with mostly lethargy (at least with SSRIs, the upside stays, too)

Ah yes. I recall now reading of the serotonergic properties of Bacopa prior to purchasing it. I had nearly forgotten about that. Suppose I should take more Bacopa! No actually, I'm content with my current dosage of that, spefically. Though, I may up my dose of methyl-b12 as needed, to counteract any additional lethargy or fatigue I may encounter.

Bacopa agonizes 5HT2A that many psychedelics target aswell. It can induce a mild psychedelic-like altered state in high doses or with 5-htp / other serotonin increaser but no hallucinations or anything just experiencing everything very vividly and feel like you have this "aura".

Yes, I recall reading about that as well, the 5-HT2A potentiation and what not. That would definitely account for the anecdotal report above of mild hallucinatory effects. I suppose if you're 5-HT2A receptor is more sensitive than normal, or already taking up enough 5-HT in general, or if your dose of Bacopa were in excess, it would make sense it would have that sort of effect on certain individuals. As for me, I'm currently taking Remeron/Mirtazapine, a 5-HT2A (among other receptor) antagonist, something l I've found rather helpful as an anxiolytic and antidepressant, likely due to its numerous novel mechanism(s) of action, as well as being helpful in negating some of the negative side effects or potential worsening of anxiety in certain individuals taking other serotonergics (i.e. SSRI's, or in my case, an SNRI).

[medievil]

With regards to self therapy, its crucial for those that get remission of it but ALSO for those that need meds, cant say this enough.

[magta39]

anyone here try Zembrin?

[therein]

anyone here try Zembrin?

Came here to ask the same. Anyone?

[jakord]

Anyone here knows something about Tofisopam?

The atypical anxiolytic drug, tofisopam, selectively blocks phosphodiesterase isoenzymes and is active in the mouse model of negative symptoms of psychosis.


Abstract


Tofisopam is a member of the 2,3-benzodiazepine compound family which is marketed for the treatment of anxiety in some European countries. In contrast to classical 1,4-benzodiazepines, the compound does not bind to the benzodiazepine binding site of the γ-aminobutyric acid receptor and its psychopharmacological profile differs from such compounds. In addition to anxiolytic properties, antipsychotic effects are reported. We now show that tofisopam, 50 mg/kg intraperitoneally (i.p.), administered in parallel to repeated doses of dizocilpine 0.2 mg/kg i.p. can ameliorate dizocilpine-induced prolongation of immobility, which is considered to be a model of negative symptoms of psychosis. We further show that tofisopam acts as an isoenzyme-selective inhibitor of phosphodiesterases (PDEs) with highest affinity to PDE-4A1 (0.42 μM) followed by PDE-10A1 (0.92 μM), PDE-3 (1.98 μM) and PDE-2A3 (2.11 μM). The data indicate that tofisopam is an interesting candidate for the adjuvant treatment of psychosis with focus on negative symptoms. Combined partial inhibition of PDE-4 and PDE-10 as well as PDE-2 may be the underlying mechanism to this activity. Due to the good safety profile of tofisopam as evident from long-term use of this agent in patients, it may be concluded that dual or triple inhibition of PDE isoenzymes with additive or synergistic effects may be an interesting approach to pharmacological activity, resulting in active compounds with beneficial safety profile. Dose-limiting side effects such as emesis induced by selective inhibition of PDE-4 may be prevented by such strategies.

[jakord]

I think relora shouldn't be on the safe & effective list, as MAGNOLIA OFFICINALIS's main active ingredient Honokiol seems to cause gaba-downregulation.

Honokiol and Magnolol Selectively Interact with GABA_A Receptor Subtypes in vitro LINK: http://www.karger.co.../FullText/56110

Edited by morpheus1990, 26 April 2013 - 03:29 PM.

[Agomelatinehope]

Just a simple question:

Is it safe to use L-Theanine for my benzo withdrawal?

If not, which other supplement could be useful? I'm very concerned about the GABA receptors

Thank you!

[choqueiro]

I recently started a thread about treating anxiety with Lysine (see: http://www.longecity...ne-for-anxiety/). The more I read, the more I get confused about the correct supplements to fight against anxiety.

In the open post of this thread ("TREATING ANXIETY SAFELY & EFFECTIVELY) ScienceGuy talked about some "GABA RECEPTORS AGONISTS which by definition should be AVOIDED if seeking to treat or prevent ANXIETY related disorders". One of the supplements included in the long list was kava kava. He also recommend avoid "GABA REUPTAKE INHIBITORS" such as passion flower.

It´s curious because some studies recommend these supplements as effective treatments (see for example: http://www.nutrition.../content/9/1/42). Curiosly magnesium, a classical supplement for anxiety (also recommended in the OP) seems to be ineffective (see: http://www.biomedcen...eases/20101005b).

I´m realluy confused. Any opinion about this contradictory information??

What are the best supplements to fight against anxiety (I was thinking in L-Lysine + L-Arginine; Fish oil and Magnesium taurate)????

Thanks in advance

[BioInfinite]

I'm sorry to report Relora is positively GABA-ergic. It is the Magnolia Officinalis bark.

Read more here: http://examine.com/s...lis/#summary5-0

This set back my recovery a couple of days and had all the hallmarks of GABA activity. Felt like phenibut to me. Such a shame, in every other way this seemed perfect.

[Sunwind]

Why is Escitalopram on the list and not any other SSRI / SNRI? What I mean is, what's so special about it? Is it related to Citalopram in some way? Because I was on Citalopram for about 2 years and it didn't do anything for me. I'm on Venlafaxine 225mg now and while it helps for my anxiety-induced depression, it doesnt' seem to help much for the anxiety itself. If Escitalopram is different than Citalopram and it's got some special property that helps against anxiety I'll ask my doctor to switch me to it.

[Arata]

Tried lots of things for anxiety, nothing worked, some meds and supps made worse.
E-EPA works for me for anxiety. It's fish oil ethylated to remove DHA, the EPA is then able to cross the blood brain barrier quickly, without having to compete with DHA for absorption.
Very nice relief from anxiety when the E-EPA hits. Need to cycle it, so my body keeps producing EPA.
Lots of info and clinical refs on vegepa dot com website, also on PUBmed. Several brands of E-EPA available, too.
I also find Noopept has a very nice anti-anxiety, anti-depression effect. Need to use choline with Noopept, to avoid headaches.
Works for me!

Would've liked to try Tianeptine, not on Schedule of drugs in Oz, too expensive, E-EPA and Noopept cheaper and do other things for me as well.

Edited by Quedin, 03 June 2013 - 01:13 PM.

[Braindeadjoe]

Could you take a combo of bacopa monnieri, garum amoricum, rhodiola? What about DHM antagonist to upregulate receptors

[vtrader]

Two things that have helped my anxiety a lot is daily meditation is learning not to fight anxiety and emotions, just being present with it helps. By fighting it it makes it worse, pain is part of emotions, just let it be.

[Arata]

Braindeadjoe Thanks, will check these out in more detail, had a quick look, very interesting :D


vtrader Thanks, your tips are like some of the cognitive behavioural therapies, which I like alot, an important part of any treatment regime. Glad these helped you, too :D