809 replies to this topic

[nowayout]

I hear good things regarding pregabalin.

From Wikipedia:

Its therapeutic effect appears after 1 week of use and is similar in effectiveness to lorazepam, alprazolam and venlafaxine but pregabalin has demonstrated superiority by producing more consistent therapeutic effects for psychic and somatic anxiety symptoms. Long-term trials have shown continued effectiveness without the development of tolerance and additionally unlike benzodiazepines it does not disrupt sleep architecture and produces less severe cognitive and psychomotor impairment; it also has a low potential for abuse and dependence and may be preferred over the benzodiazepines for these reasons.^[9][11]

Regarding withdrawal after long term use: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17940637

A long-term, 26-week, open-label study showed that pregabalin's anxiolytic effects were maintained, although the fixeddose design may have contributed to a high attrition rate. Pregabalin showed less cognitive and psychomotor impairment than alprazolam, and it showed different effects on sleep architecture to the latter in terms of REM sleep latency and slow wave stage 3/4 sleep. The most frequently reported adverse events were dizziness and somnolence, although tolerance to these developed within a few weeks. Withdrawal symptoms during a one-week taper phase were mild and were similar after both acute and chronic administration.

Edited by nowayout, 04 June 2013 - 03:47 PM.

[Braindeadjoe]

Ive heard Relora can cause down regulatikn of Gaba. Is this true?

[Galaxyshock]

I've heard Pregabalin withdrawals worse than benzos or opiates. And benzos don't help with the wds.

http://www.bluelight...rica-Withdrawal

[nowayout]

I've heard Pregabalin withdrawals worse than benzos or opiates. And benzos don't help with the wds.

http://www.bluelight...rica-Withdrawal

Haha, I wouldn't pay to much attention to that anecdote. The person was taking enormous doses of 1,500-3,000 mg per day. No wonder.

[Galaxyshock]

I've heard Pregabalin withdrawals worse than benzos or opiates. And benzos don't help with the wds.

http://www.bluelight...rica-Withdrawal

Haha, I wouldn't pay to much attention to that anecdote. The person was taking enormous doses of 1,500-3,000 mg per day. No wonder.

Yes because a lower dose can't possibly produce withdrawals altough perhaps not as horrible.. yeah.. right..
You can find more anecdotes (from lower doses, and a lot shorter time of use) easily I just picked that up quickly.

Also, from the same wikipedia page you quoted:

Pregabalin may also cause withdrawal effects after long-term use if discontinued abruptly. When prescribed for seizures, quitting "cold turkey" can increase the strength of the seizures and possibly cause the seizures to reoccur. Withdrawal symptoms include restlessness, insomnia, and anxiety. Pregabalin should be reduced gradually when finishing treatment. Because of complication risk associated with certain common side-effects in patients affected by other health issues, Pregabalin should not be used without regular medical supervision and any side effect should immediately be reported.

And the idea of demonizing anything that has GABA-affinity even if it's enormously safe (Gotu Kola, which actually has many different anxiolytic mechanisms like CCK-modulation too) seems retarded when discussing drugs like Pregabalin and SSRIs in the same thread. Should we in fact stop eating vegetables and fruits because some of the flavonoids have GABA modulation or agonism.. and lead to DOWNREGULATION and WITHDRAWALS and who knows WHAT ELSE....

Edited by Galaxyshock, 05 June 2013 - 03:07 PM.

[nowayout]

Longer studies of pregabalin (24 weeks) at therapeutic doses for anxiety showed no significant tolerance and no bad withdrawal problems after a week taper. Pregabalin is not a direct GABA agonist like benzos, and its mode of action is quite different, so you cannot discuss it as if it were a benzo, even though even benzos are probably also getting a lot of unjustified hysteria directed at them.

Anecdotes are always suspect because these people all either (1) abused the stuff, or (2) abused a bunch of other stuff too, (3) have a history of possibly harmful recreational drug use that may have messed up their brains already, (3) are on a whole cocktail of other drugs or medications, (4) have a history of psychoactive medication use (SSRIs, antipsychotics, etc.) that made who knows what alterations to their brains, (4) have alcoholism, etc., etc.

But in any case I think a percentage of horrible withdrawals are going to occur in a minority no matter what psychoactive drug you use. There is no drug that will help anxiety that won't give someone withdrawal. SSRIs are particularly toxic this way, for example, but pretty much anything that suppresses anxiety is going to have a rebound effect upon cessation. If something does not have any withdrawal, it is most likely doing nothing for anxiety. There is no free lunch.

Edited by nowayout, 05 June 2013 - 05:20 PM.

[Sunwind]

Have you guys heard of Afobazole and Bromantane?

I purchased 1 pack of each on ebay here and here. Has anyone tried them before?

I'm currently writing a log of my nootropic usage and how it is (positively) affecting my mood and anxiety in great ways, so once I start trying one of those I will add that to my log and tell you how I fare with it. Would like to hear from people that have tried either of them howerever.

[Atropy]

Wow,this thread is gold.

Just 3 questions please...(Science guy or anyone who can answer)

1) Do any or all of the safe Anxiolytics mentioned require cycling?

2) Can all/any of the Anxiolitics be safety used with a low dose of Imipramine 75mg (for someone with depression and anxiety)?

3) Will any of these Anxiolitics interact with each other if used in a stack?



Thanks very much!

[Sholrak]

I want to know if there is some special reason to explain why Picamilon is in the red list.

Assuming it's a Niacin + GABA compound which breaks after crossing BBB, is the GABA a real danger? Have not seen studies on the Picamilon section by ScienceGuy saying anything.

Any light on this?

[hooter]

I've heard Pregabalin withdrawals worse than benzos or opiates. And benzos don't help with the wds.

http://www.bluelight...rica-Withdrawal

Haha, I wouldn't pay to much attention to that anecdote. The person was taking enormous doses of 1,500-3,000 mg per day. No wonder.

I confirm that pregabalin withdrawal is quite awful, not worse than benzos though. Perhaps more confusing?

[nowayout]

Agomelatine (Valdoxan) has shown promise in studies as an anxiolytic. The mechanism is likely 5HT-2C antagonism causing 5GHt-2C downregulation. The effect is not immediate like benzos, but takes a few weeks. It doesn't have the sexual side effects of SSRIs. I'm starting it this week and will report if it helps me for this.

Edited by nowayout, 07 July 2013 - 06:40 AM.

[BlueCloud]

I had ( and still have ) severe anxiety for more than a decade, and probably tried a good chunk of what's mentionned in the first page, including benzos, ssri's, all kinds of herbs, amino-acids, nootropics, etc... Benzos are what worked the best, but my cognition took a serious hit on them, plus the fact that they are a bad medium-long term option ,so they were out.

Listing everything I've tried and failed would be way too long , but here's what semi-worked so far ( and the list is unfortunately not very long..):

- Magnesium, especially the glycinate form, at doses of at least 400mg each. Unfortunately, while it does work pretty well, the effect is quite short-lived ( see my thread here ) lasting only half-an hour to an hour , and I never found a way to extend its effect.

- Saint-John's Wort, but the only hyperforin/hypericin ratio that worked for me is the one in the Kira formulation. Other's made my anxiety worse. Unfortunately, while reducing my anxiety pretty well at first, it paradoxally worsened my insomnia much more.. I was also very concerned about some of the potential side-effects ( especially the ocular ones ), and decided the risk wasn't worth it.

- Buspirone. Unless i've skipped it, I haven't seen anyone on this thread discussing it. When it worked, it worked remarkably well, with very little cognition impairment. But it gave me serious nausea and vertigo that lasted for a good half-hour, especially on the first dose of the day. And the other problem is that...well, it was just completely unpredictable, like throwing a dice. I just never knew what will happen after dosing. Most of the times, it would have zero effect apart for the usual nausea and some sleepiness, and on some days it would magically work for a few hours, completely relieve my anxiety, and then completely fail to work again for the next few days. I tried all possible combinations in dosing, time, cycling on and off , etc, and I've never been able to have a predictable effect from it. Anyone here has experience with it ?

- Beer . Yes , beer , and only beer. I very rarely drink any alcohol, and it usually just makes me sleepy and ill if I have more than one glass. But beer ( and only certain brands, lol..) has an unusual anxiolytic effect, if I don't exceed one glass. And I don't think it's because ( or only because ) of the alcohol, wich leads me to the following list of things I have yet to try :

Things I haven't tried yet:
- Hops. Contained in beer, and I wonder if that's what really works on my anxiety rather than the alcohol . But Hops is known to have oestrogenic effects, and the idea of killing my libido and developping breasts isn't particularly exciting. But I think I'll still give it a short try.
- Lysine
- Other forms of Kava. Kava was one of the very few herbs to have any sort of substantial anxiety reduction, but it still made me too sleepy even at small doses. Still willing to try it again, under other brands.

Edited by BlueCloud, 29 July 2013 - 05:50 PM.

[branks]

What would a gaba-a antagonist like thujone do withdrawl symptoms/ to the gaba system in general? I don't understand its pharmacology well.

Edited by branks, 06 August 2013 - 12:28 AM.

[nupi]

Make them worse I would assume

[addx]

All this is focused on GABA which, with NDMA and AMPA forms infrastructure.

Anxiety stems from kappa opioid system and thus antagonists will kill anxiety immediately and agonists will downregulate it (although while often causing acute fear and terror).

The most clean and effective way to lower anxiety AND depression AND anhedonia is permanent kappa opioid antagonism or periodical kappa opioid agonism to facilitate downregulation over time.

Currently available chemicals in this respect are salvia divinorum, ibogaine and ketamine of the more known drugs, all of them agonists. There are also experimental antagonists, hard to get like JDTic.

All three, salvia, ibogaine and ketamine feature an afterglow of antidepression/antianxiety meaning you feel better AFTER intoxication is over. ibogaine and ketamine hit a bunch of receptors so this confuses the issue about them, but salvia hits only one receptor - kappa opioid and there's no doubt about its effects. Ketamine does too much other stuff to be useful. ibogaine seems quite usefull in a flood setting and low dose usage. but salvia really makes it obvious as it's very precise for the kappa opioid receptor.

Stemming from this, periodical salvia(not sure of dosage) will be able to reverse tolerance. Ibogaine is known and used for rapid and robust tolerance reversal to all known drugs and many mental disorders. Ketamine is a kappa opioid agonist amongst other and it does provide an afterglow of wellbeing in many instances and I think people have toyed and managed to reduce tolerance with it. They have been researching how ketamine achieves this afterglow, starting from its NDMA antagonism, from its immune system effects, but they're not sure yet I think.

Low dose naltrexone mentioned already is also a method to manipulate the opioid receptors. Antagonism of opioid receptors does not work the same for all varieties of the opioid receptors. Antagonism of mu opioid receptors causes their upregulation. And subsequent injections of morphine are more effective after natrexone. Kappa opioid networks do not upregulate due to antagonism. This is why naltrexone works - it pushes/upregulates the mu opioid system, balancing it out against the (presumably already upregulated due to drug use/stress) kappa opioid system which can not upregulate from antagonism. I have seen this distinction clearly noted and tested in a study of naltrexone or naloxone, forgot which.

Although I think that it is wiser to balance the mu and and kappa opioid systems by downregulating the upregulated one.

Kappa opioid system does upregulate using a different mechanism: by excess dopamine in mesolimbic/reward circuits. This establishes the kappa opioid system as the main tolerance/withdrawal mechanism for ALL drugs of abuse. Kappa opiod receptors in the mesolimbic/reward circuits inhibit dopamine. So kappa opioid receptors upregulate to stop neurotoxicity of excess reward dopamine by increasing their number and inhibiting dopamine that way.

Kappa opioid sysem is downregulated directly through agonism. This is not just a chemical push process IMO. Kappa opioid system is responsible for storing, recalling fear memories. Among the fear memories are also memories of successfull fear avoidance thus the kappa opioid system facilitates fear extincition by storing/associating memories of fears being avoided. Fear exctinction process doesn't work if you antagonize kappa opioids. So flooding kappa opioid receptors with agonists doesn't just chemically overload them but produces a state of mind that can facilitate massive fear exctinction. And voila, both salvia and ibogaine trips function exactly like that - people recall/relive their repressed fears in a disconnected manner allowing them to resolve them with an adult mindset and storing the "solutions" while flooded with agonists causes the solutions to be stored as fear extinction memories.

Edited by addx, 12 August 2013 - 12:30 PM.

[machete234]

So in short you would have to trip on these substances and the long term effect would be less anxiety?

I tried MXE and DXM before, as dissociatives but it did not give me much.
The normal psychedelics that work on the 5HT receptors gave me much more.

I think my brother tried salvia and it worked (its not very easy to get it to work depending on the material I guess), from what I was told its
kind of terrifying and throws you out of our normal world in an instant.

Edited by machete234, 12 August 2013 - 02:21 PM.

[addx]

Kappa agonists can often provide uncomfortable trips so the idea would be to periodically "suffer" them in order to downregulate the kappa opioid system. I have seen good reports with Salvia weekly or biweekly use. I have seen some good reports even with daily below-trip dosing. Most of the reports intended on Salvia use for antidepression and worked.

The intense kappa opioid flood(fear, terror) usually causes dissociation making the trips not that bad for a lot of people. I have seen a report from a guy who did 7-8 trips in a row. The trips started with fear and terror and as he progressed they became more and more euphoric.

Salvia, being a kappa opioid agonist does not cause normal tolerance/withdrawal. It's acute effects may lessen(as it downregulates the KOR system it surely must lessen in acute effect) but you will never develop a craving for Salvia, it seems to be an impossibility.

Ibogaine on the other hand is a lot more complex. It hits a bunch of receptors including the psychedelic serotonin receptor, it hits mu opioids as well. It's metabolite noribogaine also hits a bunch of receptors even stronger and I think it switches, ibogaine is amonst other things a kappa opioid agonist, but its metabolite noribogaine is AFAIK a kappa opioid antagonist. So it's hard to say what all the effects are, but as far as opioids are concerned ibogaine is a therapy in itself. The metabolizing of ibogaine to noribogaine seems like someone planned it as a part of therapy and not an accidental fluke of nature. So Ibogaine has proven great as a single trip experience but has also proven great microdosing. It seems the best combination is to do the single flood trip and the microdose when necessary. Ibogaine boost BNDF in the most important brain regions and is simply like turbo-CBT. It should really be used to facilitate better therapy like they tried with MDMA.

I found a person on another forum that managed to merge his two dissociative identities through a period of 14 days by microdosing ibogaine. Imagine that. Being a split personality and finding a cure that works better than anyone can imagine.

Normal psychedelics allow you to reach your subconscious thoughts. But if you push kappa opioids you're targeting not just any thoughts but fears. And getting the ability to extinct them.

Ketamine has been used in case studies for antidepression and it has fixed the most difficult to treat major depressions. Treatment consisted of SUBPSYCHEDELIC doses delivered weekly or biweekly. A treatment of 40 minutes would provide days of antidepression. The treatment could be spaced further apart as time progressed meaning the treatment does infact work to bring your baseline to normalcy and it stays there without any drugs in your system for days, weeks or more. They're not sure how ketamine does this. I can bet on kappa opiod agonism, but it might be also ketamines inhibition of the immune system.

Depression is very akin to brain inflammation in so many aspects and agents that influence inflammation also influence depression immediately. I think even diclofenac can do it immediately(in injection form, not pills they're too weak) The most obvious example though are steroids. Corticosteroids are able to stop depression immediately. They sometimes cause psychotic mania even.

kappa opioids function is to also to regulate the immune response.

this is why cannabinoids interact with opioids. cannabinoids are more of a "gestation"/"trance" or something infrastructure. for example, they cause immune system shutdown in bowel in response to food ingestion(if this fails your immune system attacks food - how the fuk do scientists dont get this fact or use it?). i would bet they inhibit bowel KORs to do this. and therein lies the generation of "munchies" dopamine load. you inhibit KOR and that must cause a release of dopamine somewhere in the reward structure and this dopamine causes hunger, even though that doesn't sound quite right from stimulant use(wrong, while now being in a very messed up mental state I have often got hunger pangs from ritaln/concerta/meth and even cocaine. infact concerta made me eat like a normal person). while the cannabinoid gestation period is active, if you start to feel sick your body will memorize that this is a result of what you ate. i think the cannabinoid networks also facilitate trancelike states like runners high or winter hibernation - they detect these situation and ellicit appropriate functions such as the passing of time and causing endoprhin release via connection with opioids. blah blah. i got carried away. blah, im making a lot jumping to conclusions but fuk me science is slow

Edited by addx, 12 August 2013 - 03:33 PM.

[FocusPocus]

Damn i just read the first post, and i realised ive been using both Clonazepam and Ashwagandha. No wonder i feel so tired and sleepy throughout the day.

And i have my board exams in 2 months time. I'm seriously screwing things up as far as studying is concerned. the excess GABA is screwing up my memory too.

I think i'l try some Bacopa. But wasnt there a study about bacopa reducing sperm counts, and testicular size?

I think ill try some Rhodiola. Cant find any cheap brands though.

[milex]

I'm taking St John's Wort, Theanine and Magnesium for anxiety (especially social phobia) atm. Now I would like to start taking the substances below as well to increase the effectiveness. Is it safe? Is it beneficial?

1) GARUM ARMORICUM (brands: STABILIUM; ADAPTON)
4) RHODIOLA ROSEA
5) RELORA (MAGNOLIA OFFICINALIS and PHELLODENDRON AMURENSE)

Edited by milex, 17 August 2013 - 08:34 PM.

[formergenius]

So here's what I've tried from this thread so far, and my evaluation of them:

Unsafe or questionably unsafe/unsustainable:
BENZODIAZEPINES (Diazepam, Prazepam, Oxazepam) Tried these a few times.. Diazepam is effective, yet memory loss and very addictive. Prazepam is way too sedating and zombifying for my taste; I didn't like it. Oxazepam is the best out of all benzo's I've tried. Not too addictive I find, though I've only used it once. Still anti-nootropic though. I don't like benzo's altogether, and only keep Oxazepam "in case of fire", the rest I've thrown out. Actually, I might throw this one out as well, for I have better options now.
iii) VALERIAN (VALERIANA OFFICINALIS) Absolutely ineffective at various doses/frequencies/qualities
iv) KAVA KAVA (PIPER METHYSTICUM) Very effective, moreover inducing a state of contentedness. No adverse effects except for perhaps a little sedation in higher doses. An enjoyable ritual, an acquired yet pleasurable taste, but definitely well worth it. No tolerance after 2 weeks of daily use, nor withdrawal. Felt like there was a cool breeze flowing through my mind. For me, definitely a keeper to recommend.
v) PHENIBUT Effective, especially socially. However, side-effects make it not worth it. Can produce a hangover, loss of motor control, tolerance, sedation, and overall feeling of unwell. Moreover rapid tolerance. I threw away the bottle.
vi) PICAMILON Absolutely ineffective at various doses and frequencies. Ditched it.
x) ASHWAGHANDHA (WITHANIA SOMNIFERA) Effective. However, best used at night for it can make me drowsy or tired, as such pretty useless for daytime anxiety.
xiii) CHAMOMILE (MATRICARIA CHAMOMILLA) Slightly effective. Works better when you're already relaxed, or right before bed, or in conjunction with another anxiolytic. The tea is nice.
xiv) ALCOHOL Effective, but stupidifying. I needn't say the rest, however alcohol for me in particular makes me feel uncomfortable. Definitely not worth it, and inferior to other things I've tried.
i) PASSION FLOWER (PASSIFLORA INCARNATA) Unexpectedly effective! Best enjoyed smoked, as the tea can make me particularly tired or zoned out. Higher doses of smoking can be sedating, so be careful. Best smoked through a vaporizer or a bong/pipe of sorts, for dosage control. Best dosages for me are 125, 250, and 500 milligrams of carefully dried, crushed, and repeatedly refined/sieved leaf material. Slight tolerance occurred after several days, however no withdrawal. Best used sparingly. I use this for when I'm highly anxious and want acute relief. Definitely a keeper for me.
3) CANNABIS Anxiogenic for me. Especially considering here in the Netherlands they don't even label the cannabinioid ratio's! So it's really just a gamble, and most strains are grown for high THC content anyway. I've yet to try pure CBD which I'm eager to do. Possibly slightly psychosis inducing, as I've experienced hallucinations of shadows and a paranoia of some sorts. Not full-blown psychosis, just a very morbid anxious perceptual alteration with severe cognitive decline. In my younger years I smoked a lot of weed with no such issues and it was absolutely anxiolytic for me, though in retrospect chronic use really fogged me up. I wouldn't recommend, as the best anxiolysis is that without clouding of the mind.

"Safe and effective":
1) GARUM ARMORICUM (brand: STABILIUM) Absolutely ineffective. Tried 1 box of Stabilium as directed. Nothing.
2) MAGNESIUM (Malate) Effective, albeit slightly. Serves as a good 'basis' to build on. Good for foot care in Sulphate form.
3) BACOPA MONNIERI Ineffective, though improper trial. Tried this for a month as it was in the AlphaBrain product.
4) RHODIOLA ROSEA Ineffective. Though improper trial for quality was questionable.
5) RELORA (MAGNOLIA OFFICINALIS and PHELLODENDRON AMURENSE) Ineffective. Though improper trial for quality was questionable.
6) THEANINE Not sure on this one. Particularly mitigates caffeine jitters, however used by itself I feel more stimulation rather than anxiolysis.
9) TIANEPTINE Questionably effective. My trial was not long (maybe 3 weeks IIRC). After a few days I noticed anxiolysis, particularly socially. However this disappeared after another few days, and never returned. Can't explain this.
11) PIRACETAM Ineffective in all regards, nootropic and otherwise. Tried different dosages, different frequencies, all at several weeks, some in combination with different choline sources. Absolutely zilch.
15) INOSITOL (MYO-INOSITOL) Ineffective, however concluded after 2 weeks of use.
DAMIANA (Turnera Diffusa var. Aphrodisiaca) Not on this list, however I've found it very effective as an anxiolytic. No adverse effects apart from perhaps a little sedation in higher doses. Cannot conclude anything for I've only tried twice now. However, I've experienced acute effects among which anxiolysis and anti-depressant.

Yet to try (from the list):

xi) CALIFORNIA POPPY (ESCHSCHOLZIA CALIFORNICA)
xii) SKULLCAP (SCUTELLARIA LATERIFLORA) Especially this one I'd like to try.

Some other notes:

There's rather little information available about Yarrow. Though the Erowid reports, plus that it appears to be rather safe, have sparked my interest, so I've bought some Yarrow extract which I've yet to try some more. I'd also like to try Mulungu. If anything, I'd say if you're looking for herbal alternatives, herbal smokes vendors generally have an index worth looking in to. That doesn't mean it's safe or sustainable, but they can provide some ideas worth further investigation. Mugwort may be worth further investigation.. As well as Holy Basil/Tulsi. I haven't really looked into them that much; just put them aside as things to investigate. Other than that I should note that I'm in no regards your average healthy person, as I currently have HPPD. Also these are just my personal experiences, obvious to which you should do your own research should you consider using any of these.

Lastly, though this thread has been a good reference in my search for a decent anxiolytic, though most of the substances labelled to be "safe and effective" haven't exactly been effective as you can see. The best anxiolytics I've encountered so far are, in no particular order: Kava Kava, Passiflora, Damiana, tDCS, Yoga/Stretches/Meditation, and noise-cancelling headphones. Ha when I list it like that, I see only herbs and non-invasive devices. Interesting.. no hippie-agenda here though, haha!

[nupi]

I have tried almost all of the ones you have tried (exceptions are Phenibut and Picamilon)

In order of effectiveness I would say Benzo, SSRI (safer than both Benzos and booze, for sure), Alcohol, Kava, Bacopa/Ashwagadha. With Relora and Theanine I am on the fence. Remainder of the list does nothing.

If you want to stay away from Pharmaceuticals, Bacopa and a glass of wine is an interesting combination.


Ultimately only a somewhat long half life SSRI gives me consistent relief at the price of making me complacent. Not necessarily a good thing but sure beats the alternative.

Edited by nupi, 24 August 2013 - 09:23 AM.

[nowayout]

Low dose mirtazapine is quite effective IME.

[Sasha_]

I'm taking St John's Wort, Theanine and Magnesium for anxiety (especially social phobia) atm. Now I would like to start taking the substances below as well to increase the effectiveness. Is it safe? Is it beneficial?

1) GARUM ARMORICUM (brands: STABILIUM; ADAPTON)
4) RHODIOLA ROSEA
5) RELORA (MAGNOLIA OFFICINALIS and PHELLODENDRON AMURENSE)

Good you mention Rhodiola since I have found it to be very synergistic when taken simultaneously with St John's Wort, only thing is you really need to cycle this stack, like one week on, one week off. I eventually ditch that stack, although it really helped me in stressfull times. Today I find the ciltep stack (forskolin/artichoke) to help me a lot with self confidence, sometimes I even just take forskolin on its own, with B vitamins, cold shower,
work out , and a meat rich diet (kinda slow carb).works for me.

[machete234]

i would bet they inhibit bowel KORs to do this. and therein lies the generation of "munchies" dopamine load. you inhibit KOR and that must cause a release of dopamine somewhere in the reward structure and this dopamine causes hunger, even though that doesn't sound quite right from stimulant use(wrong, while now being in a very messed up mental state I have often got hunger pangs from ritaln/concerta/meth and even cocaine. infact concerta made me eat like a normal person). while the cannabinoid gestation period is active, if you start to feel sick your body will memorize that this is a result of what you ate. i think the cannabinoid networks also facilitate trancelike states like runners high or winter hibernation - they detect these situation and ellicit appropriate functions such as the passing of time and causing endoprhin release via connection with opioids. blah blah. i got carried away. blah, im making a lot jumping to conclusions but fuk me science is slow

The funny thing with cannabis is, I eat the same as usual or even more and I will be more lean, say after 1 or 2 months of moderate cannabis consumtion.

They used to say you get the munchies because your blood sugar levels drop but I am almost certain thats not the reason.

The reason you dont get hungry on stimulants is Noradrenaline or NE and the reuptake of that is not inhibited a lot with ritaline so you might get hungry earlier when taking that. Its more dopamine reptake, same with coke probably.
Regular amph and meth should make you a lot less hungry because of more NE

x) ASHWAGHANDHA (WITHANIA SOMNIFERA) Effective. However, best used at night for it can make me drowsy or tired, as such pretty useless for daytime anxiety.
..................



3) CANNABIS Anxiogenic for me. Especially considering here in the Netherlands they don't even label the cannabinioid ratio's! So it's really just a gamble, and most strains are grown for high THC content anyway. I've yet to try pure CBD which I'm eager to do. Possibly slightly psychosis inducing, as I've experienced hallucinations of shadows and a paranoia of some sorts. Not full-blown psychosis, just a very morbid anxious perceptual alteration with severe cognitive decline. In my younger years I smoked a lot of weed with no such issues and it was absolutely anxiolytic for me, though in retrospect chronic use really fogged me up. I wouldn't recommend, as the best anxiolysis is that without clouding of the mind.

I found combining these two really good, if cannabis is anxiogenic for you, I took the AWG like 30min one hour before and let it settle in.

Also: Drowsy from awg, take less and paranoia from weed take less too.
Especially with weed there are so many idiots that you shoudnt take as role models, just take 50% of what everybody else takes

Edited by machete234, 24 August 2013 - 12:08 PM.

[formergenius]

Hmm I might try that.. Though I rather wait until I can get my hands on pure CBD. Besides, I already take ridiculously little amounts (1-2 drags tops from a half and half joint), and I get those effects. Wouldn't be surprised if it's psychosomatic. I might smoke some AWG though.. for now Damiana seems to be doing the trick.

[nupi]

It's not just Dopamine that surpresses hunger - even plain old Bupropion (primarily an NRI) does that.

[machete234]

Wouldn't be surprised if it's psychosomatic. I might smoke some AWG though.. for now Damiana seems to be doing the trick.

Not smoking, I meant taking two caps by himalaya or cook yourself some AWG in milk and drink that before you want to get high.

[formergenius]

Yes I know, but I'd be interested in smoking AWG.
I'm not looking to get high, I'm looking to get lucid
But thanks.

[rogerthat]

Kappa agonists can often provide uncomfortable trips so the idea would be to periodically "suffer" them in order to downregulate the kappa opioid system. I have seen good reports with Salvia weekly or biweekly use. I have seen some good reports even with daily below-trip dosing. Most of the reports intended on Salvia use for antidepression and worked.
...
...

It's been around 2 years (can't remember exactly tbh) since my last Phenibut dose. I am on 20mg Cipralex just to get through and still have heavy ups and downs. Magnesium, Zinc and B Vitamins all aggravate my symptoms significantly - and I'm roughly 10x more sensitive to stimulants than before my Phenibut dosing. One night of drinking and I'm seriously depressed for a month afterwards (as a result I don't drink anymore obv.). Is Salvia something you would recommend trying in order to up regulate my serotonogenic and more importantly GABA-B system? If so, could I get away with a very low dose quid method?

Thanks!

[milex]

I'm taking St John's Wort, Theanine and Magnesium for anxiety (especially social phobia) atm. Now I would like to start taking the substances below as well to increase the effectiveness. Is it safe? Is it beneficial?

1) GARUM ARMORICUM (brands: STABILIUM; ADAPTON)
4) RHODIOLA ROSEA
5) RELORA (MAGNOLIA OFFICINALIS and PHELLODENDRON AMURENSE)

Good you mention Rhodiola since I have found it to be very synergistic when taken simultaneously with St John's Wort, only thing is you really need to cycle this stack, like one week on, one week off. I eventually ditch that stack, although it really helped me in stressfull times. Today I find the ciltep stack (forskolin/artichoke) to help me a lot with self confidence, sometimes I even just take forskolin on its own, with B vitamins, cold shower,
work out , and a meat rich diet (kinda slow carb).works for me.

I decided not to purchase Garum Armoricum as it was both expensive and not many reviews could be found. Most importantly though, why you need to cycle this stack??? I thought they were supposed to be used long term without cycling. This should be the case at least with St. John's Wort, Theanine, Magnesium and Rhodiola Rosea. I don't know about Relora.

Edited by milex, 25 August 2013 - 08:24 PM.