809 replies to this topic

[DrSteveBrule]

I struggle with what I think is relatively mild, but persistent anxiety that heightens in social situations.  I've tried a number of things, including, but not limited to, the following:

 

Ashwagandha

Lemon Balm

Bacopa Monnieri

Phenibut

Lysine

Magnesium (in various forms and combinations)

Niacinamide (the anti-inflammatory properties improve my skin...I don't really notice an anxiolytic effect at standard doses)

Valerian/Chamomile/Hops

Various amino acids

St. John's Wort

 

I regularly take the following, more for other issues and general health than specifically for anxiety:

 

Zinc (Abion chelated zinc, to be specific)

Melatonin (for sleep)

B-complex

Multi-mineral complex

NAC + C (mostly for avoiding hangovers when drinking)

Fish oil

 

Here's my current regimen:

 

AM:

• 250mg standardized (0.3% hypericin) Swanson's St. John's Wort (I have tapered and decreased this due to sexual side effects)
• multi-mineral complex (including 500mg magnesium oxide/magnesium amino acid chelate and 50mg glutamic acid HCl)
• 500mg niacinamide
• 500mg non-standardized bacopa
• 1g fish oil

 

Before bed:

• 30mg Abion chelated zinc
• 3mg melatonin
• 600mg NAC
• 500mg vitamin C buffered with 50mg calcium
• B complex
• 10mg cetirizine (Zyrtec)
• 500mg niacinamide
• 500mg non-standardized bacopa
• 1g fish oil

 

As needed:

• ~ 500mg phenibut (never more than 2x/week and mostly far less often than that)
• 450mg non-standardized ashwagandha (typically in the late afternoon/early evening, maybe 2-4 days/week)
• 500mg free-form L-lysine (for anxiety-triggered digestive issues, though it doesn't really seem to help)
• Rhodiola rosea: 250mg standardized (5% rosavins/15% polyphenols) + 100mg whole root

 

For me, phenibut can be moderately effective for situational anxiety (when I can anticipate it) in the manner that I've used it.  I haven't felt the need to increase the dose or use it more frequently.  I can sense the potential for abuse, mind you, but I seem to be disciplined enough to avoid either abuse or significant tolerance.

 

Ashwagandha has similar but much weaker and shorter duration effects as compared to phenibut, in my experience.  For a time, I took this twice daily until I read more about GABA receptor downregulation.  Now I take it once daily a few times a week.

 

I take bacopa and niacinamide together, twice a day, and don't notice much in the way of anxiolytic effects from either.  Still, I believe they may have other benefits.  Niacinamide works nicely to reduce redness/inflammation in my face.  Whether or not bacopa can upregulate GABA receptors to any significant degree, I'm convinced that it does no harm.

 

I'm on the fence about St. John's Wort.  On the one hand, I feel like shit on the second day if I stop taking it.  On the other, I'm not sure to what extent it's helping and I don't appreciate the side effects.  I suspect it may be disrupting my sleep in addition to the aforementioned sexual side effects.  I believe I should try tapering off of it at some point.  I'm already at half dosage.  Disappointingly, I'm not entirely sure that the side effects are dose-dependent.  To be honest, I find the diminished libido to be a bit of a relief, though the other sexual side effects are anything but.  I don't believe I am or have ever been clinically depressed.  I do see a therapist who, I believe, would classify me as mildly dysthymic.  I can also be obsessive about certain things (can't you tell from this post?  ), but I don't think that's on the level of any kind of clinically diagnosable disorder.

 

I've been taking rhodiola as needed for fatigue with reasonable results.  I find that taking rhodiola after work and taking a 20-90 minute nap leaves me feeling more refreshed than simply taking a nap.  Also, there doesn't seem to be a "crash" as you might experience with caffeine or other stimulants.

 

I haven't really experimented with lemon balm or the valerian/chamomile/hops combo quite enough to form strong opinions.  Both seem to reduce anxiety, though perhaps not as effectively as ashwagandha and nowhere near as effectively as phenibut.  I'm intrigued by lemon balm, though I still fail to understand why a GABA transaminase inhibitor would be any less likely to downregulate GABA receptors (as ScienceGuy claims) than a substance that increases GABA by other means or increases sensitivity to GABA.  I think I'll try to use it in place of ashwagandha and try to get a better sense of its efficacy.

 

Things I would like to try:

 

Relora

Bupropion

Phenelzine (Nardil)

Baclofen

Low-dose naltrexone

Benzos (not kidding...if they are like phenibut, I would rather use such things with a doctor's supervision)

Afobazole

Theanine

 

Are there other things I should try with these goals in mind: decreased anxiety (particularly social anxiety), improved mood, and decreased fatigue?  I also have some relatively mild gastric reflux that is well controlled by 10mg famotidine 2x daily, but I'd love to find some other solution to that issue (and I'm fully convinced of the gut/brain neurotransmitter connection).  I have not seen a psychiatrist, but I intend to at some point.

 

Personally, I'm not convinced that there's no safe way to use GABAergics.  I feel better even 36 hours after taking phenibut.  The effect is marked and seems to be especially effective in the social situations that trigger my anxiety the most.  I'm not willing to give that up, nor have I experienced the downside that many people warn about.  That said, I appreciate the stern warnings since I'm sure that has helped me avoid abusing it.  I certainly want to avoid withdrawal and tolerance that can result from chronic GABAergic usage.  I think that goes without saying.  Pick your poison, though.  I can tolerate a reasonable level of risk in order to appreciably improve my quality of life.

[Duchykins]

I took the Relora last night... What a punch it packed! I ended up sleeping so hard between 1 300mg capsule of Relora and 7.5mg of mirtazapine that I woke up just enough to shut my alarm off this morning and didn't even take my Valium that was due at 8:15AM until 1:47PM just now when I realized it was still in the pill box!
 
This stuff is gold! I'm going to have to start taking it with each dose of Valium I take (I take two 3.75mg doses a day).
 
Fenobam had some interesting discussion on it before but it never really went anywhere so I don't know anyone who has taken it.

I'm so glad it helped you! Forgetting to take scheduled valium, that's really good.

This will be roughly the fourth week of taking 250mg twice daily. I haven't notice any loss of effectiveness yet but perhaps it's too early for that.

That being said, I'm still having serious problems. It's better than before the relora, and before switching to mag malate, but still bad enough to cripple my life. I'm starting to think no amount of drugs will 'cure' me, help me yes, but not enough on their own.

I'm seeing a psychiatrist this week, one my GP insisted I go to. I'm terrified of being misdiagnosed, and the thought of being misdiagnosed enrages me after all these years of bullshit, but I think I have Asperger's. It's the only one that makes sense and encompasses all other crap I've been diagnosed (or misdiagnosed?) with in the past.

[Ethrem]

You're on a really slippery slope DrSteveBrule... That's way too many things for someone that doesn't have a GABAergic dependency. For you, something as simple as exercise could kill your anxiety quite effectively. You're playing with fire right now. GABAergics are not the answer and you're mixing a lot of them...

 

 

I took the Relora last night... What a punch it packed! I ended up sleeping so hard between 1 300mg capsule of Relora and 7.5mg of mirtazapine that I woke up just enough to shut my alarm off this morning and didn't even take my Valium that was due at 8:15AM until 1:47PM just now when I realized it was still in the pill box!
 
This stuff is gold! I'm going to have to start taking it with each dose of Valium I take (I take two 3.75mg doses a day).
 
Fenobam had some interesting discussion on it before but it never really went anywhere so I don't know anyone who has taken it.

I'm so glad it helped you! Forgetting to take scheduled valium, that's really good.

This will be roughly the fourth week of taking 250mg twice daily. I haven't notice any loss of effectiveness yet but perhaps it's too early for that.

That being said, I'm still having serious problems. It's better than before the relora, and before switching to mag malate, but still bad enough to cripple my life. I'm starting to think no amount of drugs will 'cure' me, help me yes, but not enough on their own.

I'm seeing a psychiatrist this week, one my GP insisted I go to. I'm terrified of being misdiagnosed, and the thought of being misdiagnosed enrages me after all these years of bullshit, but I think I have Asperger's. It's the only one that makes sense and encompasses all other crap I've been diagnosed (or misdiagnosed?) with in the past.

 

 

Yeah usually when I miss my scheduled Valium, I'm miserable all day. This stuff is pretty remarkable.

 

I have been misdiagnosed so many times its not even funny. ADHD as a kid, Bipolar (I, II, cyclothymic), unipolar, major depressive disorder, adjustment disorder, panic disorder, agoraphobia, generalized anxiety disorder - the only ones I agree with are the last three although the panic isn't there as much as the other two lately. Either my coping skills have gotten much better or I've just become somewhat desensitized to full blown panic attacks as its very rare that I have them. The generalized anxiety disorder and agoraphobia are a bitch though.

 

Honestly, psychiatrists... its hard to find a good one. I have a decent one. I think I'm going to talk to her about switching from 3.75mg of Valium twice a day to switching to 5mg of Tranxene twice a day and see if I do better tapering down from that. I am starting to think that my problem is that Valium pooped out on me a long time ago (like Klonopin and Xanax before it) and that's why I'm so miserable. The fact that such a small amount of Relora helped me so much would seem to emphasize that probability. When I was in rapid detox, they gave me Tranxene and I had zero anxiety for the first time in years. For some reason, I have to cycle benzos. When Xanax stopped working (at a whopping 8mg a day between IR/XR) I went to Klonopin and when it stopped working (at 6mg a day), I went to Valium, but around a year later when I ran out of Valium and didn't have a prescription I was able to switch to Klonopin temporarily and it worked - at a much lower dose than I was taking when I hopped to Valium. I'm also going to look more into Trileptal. I verified that Medicare will pay for both of these in the amounts that I need them.... My cost would be $1.20 a month each, so I wasn't worried about that, but I was worried about hitting the quantity limit which it appears I would with both of them but I wouldn't be passing it so I'm good.

 

I just have to convince her to trust me with a prescription for Valium and a prescription for Tranxene at the same time in case the Tranxene doesn't work for me and I have to go back to Valium.

 

This whole thing just sucks. I honestly question why I even started this... On 9/13 it will be one year since I stopped drinking and smoking and started my taper yet I'm feeling significantly worse than when I was drinking and smoking and I went from having an active (drunk) social life to not leaving my room most days. :\

Edited by Ethrem, 13 July 2014 - 10:45 PM.

[DrSteveBrule]

You're on a really slippery slope DrSteveBrule... That's way too many things for someone that doesn't have a GABAergic dependency. For you, something as simple as exercise could kill your anxiety quite effectively. You're playing with fire right now. GABAergics are not the answer and you're mixing a lot of them...

 

I'll have to respectfully disagree.  The only GABAergic I take daily is niacinamide, and I don't believe 1g/day spread between two doses is even a psychoactive dose.  In any case, 7.5mg of Valium says perhaps you should get off your high horse.

 

BTW, I exercise 4-6 times/week.

[Ethrem]

 

You're on a really slippery slope DrSteveBrule... That's way too many things for someone that doesn't have a GABAergic dependency. For you, something as simple as exercise could kill your anxiety quite effectively. You're playing with fire right now. GABAergics are not the answer and you're mixing a lot of them...

 

I'll have to respectfully disagree.  The only GABAergic I take daily is niacinamide, and I don't believe 1g/day spread between two doses is even a psychoactive dose.  In any case, 7.5mg of Valium says perhaps you should get off your high horse.

 

BTW, I exercise 4-6 times/week.

 

 

GABAergic damage is cumulative, it doesn't happen overnight. Regardless of what you wish to believe, phenibut *will* catch up with you and Ashwaganda, Valerian, etc., all can do so eventually as well.

 

Do as you wish. I know I have a benzo dependency and it sucks, you think anxiety is bad now? See what happens when you hit that GABAergic wall. By the way, I was in your shoes once saying that I could and would use GABAergic substances responsibly so my comment about the slippery slope is from personal experience. Never once did I abuse any of them until well after I was already addicted to benzos and started abusing alcohol to make up for what the benzos were no longer doing.

 

Did you ever think that maybe your stack is making things worse? Its something to look at.

 

If you don't want anyone to make statements about the things you're doing, don't post about them on a public forum. Your tone in your reply about not believing that GABAergics can't be used safely/responsibly is dangerous thinking. There's a reason why everyone who has started on GABAergics recommends that everyone else not do them. You'll find out for yourself though just as I did, best of luck!

Edited by Ethrem, 13 July 2014 - 11:01 PM.

[Duchykins]

I struggle with what I think is relatively mild, but persistent anxiety that heightens in social situations.  I've tried a number of things, including, but not limited to, the following:
 

Ashwagandha

Lemon Balm

Bacopa Monnieri

Phenibut

Lysine

Magnesium (in various forms and combinations)

Niacinamide (the anti-inflammatory properties improve my skin...I don't really notice an anxiolytic effect at standard doses)

Valerian/Chamomile/Hops

Various amino acids

St. John's Wort

 
I regularly take the following, more for other issues and general health than specifically for anxiety:
 

Zinc (Abion chelated zinc, to be specific)

Melatonin (for sleep)

B-complex

Multi-mineral complex

NAC + C (mostly for avoiding hangovers when drinking)

Fish oil

 
Here's my current regimen:
 

AM:

• 250mg standardized (0.3% hypericin) Swanson's St. John's Wort (I have tapered and decreased this due to sexual side effects)
• multi-mineral complex (including 500mg magnesium oxide/magnesium amino acid chelate and 50mg glutamic acid HCl)
• 500mg niacinamide
• 500mg non-standardized bacopa
• 1g fish oil

 

Before bed:

• 30mg Abion chelated zinc
• 3mg melatonin
• 600mg NAC
• 500mg vitamin C buffered with 50mg calcium
• B complex
• 10mg cetirizine (Zyrtec)
• 500mg niacinamide
• 500mg non-standardized bacopa
• 1g fish oil

 

As needed:

• ~ 500mg phenibut (never more than 2x/week and mostly far less often than that)
• 450mg non-standardized ashwagandha (typically in the late afternoon/early evening, maybe 2-4 days/week)
• 500mg free-form L-lysine (for anxiety-triggered digestive issues, though it doesn't really seem to help)
• Rhodiola rosea: 250mg standardized (5% rosavins/15% polyphenols) + 100mg whole root

 
For me, phenibut can be moderately effective for situational anxiety (when I can anticipate it) in the manner that I've used it.  I haven't felt the need to increase the dose or use it more frequently.  I can sense the potential for abuse, mind you, but I seem to be disciplined enough to avoid either abuse or significant tolerance.
 
Ashwagandha has similar but much weaker and shorter duration effects as compared to phenibut, in my experience.  For a time, I took this twice daily until I read more about GABA receptor downregulation.  Now I take it once daily a few times a week.
 
I take bacopa and niacinamide together, twice a day, and don't notice much in the way of anxiolytic effects from either.  Still, I believe they may have other benefits.  Niacinamide works nicely to reduce redness/inflammation in my face.  Whether or not bacopa can upregulate GABA receptors to any significant degree, I'm convinced that it does no harm.
 
I'm on the fence about St. John's Wort.  On the one hand, I feel like shit on the second day if I stop taking it.  On the other, I'm not sure to what extent it's helping and I don't appreciate the side effects.  I suspect it may be disrupting my sleep in addition to the aforementioned sexual side effects.  I believe I should try tapering off of it at some point.  I'm already at half dosage.  Disappointingly, I'm not entirely sure that the side effects are dose-dependent.  To be honest, I find the diminished libido to be a bit of a relief, though the other sexual side effects are anything but.  I don't believe I am or have ever been clinically depressed.  I do see a therapist who, I believe, would classify me as mildly dysthymic.  I can also be obsessive about certain things (can't you tell from this post?  ), but I don't think that's on the level of any kind of clinically diagnosable disorder.
 
I've been taking rhodiola as needed for fatigue with reasonable results.  I find that taking rhodiola after work and taking a 20-90 minute nap leaves me feeling more refreshed than simply taking a nap.  Also, there doesn't seem to be a "crash" as you might experience with caffeine or other stimulants.
 
I haven't really experimented with lemon balm or the valerian/chamomile/hops combo quite enough to form strong opinions.  Both seem to reduce anxiety, though perhaps not as effectively as ashwagandha and nowhere near as effectively as phenibut.  I'm intrigued by lemon balm, though I still fail to understand why a GABA transaminase inhibitor would be any less likely to downregulate GABA receptors (as ScienceGuy claims) than a substance that increases GABA by other means or increases sensitivity to GABA.  I think I'll try to use it in place of ashwagandha and try to get a better sense of its efficacy.
 
Things I would like to try:
 

Relora

Bupropion

Phenelzine (Nardil)

Baclofen

Low-dose naltrexone

Benzos (not kidding...if they are like phenibut, I would rather use such things with a doctor's supervision)

Afobazole

Theanine

 
Are there other things I should try with these goals in mind: decreased anxiety (particularly social anxiety), improved mood, and decreased fatigue?  I also have some relatively mild gastric reflux that is well controlled by 10mg famotidine 2x daily, but I'd love to find some other solution to that issue (and I'm fully convinced of the gut/brain neurotransmitter connection).  I have not seen a psychiatrist, but I intend to at some point.
 
Personally, I'm not convinced that there's no safe way to use GABAergics.  I feel better even 36 hours after taking phenibut.  The effect is marked and seems to be especially effective in the social situations that trigger my anxiety the most.  I'm not willing to give that up, nor have I experienced the downside that many people warn about.  That said, I appreciate the stern warnings since I'm sure that has helped me avoid abusing it.  I certainly want to avoid withdrawal and tolerance that can result from chronic GABAergic usage.  I think that goes without saying.  Pick your poison, though.  I can tolerate a reasonable level of risk in order to appreciably improve my quality of life.

I stronly recommend you do not try bupropion or at least save it for last - for anxiety, anyway. Bupropion almost never helps anxiety in people with comorbid depression and has been to known to worsen or cause it. It is a mild stimulant and that is why it is unique among antidepressants in that it doesn't tend to cause weight gain or sexual dysfunction, it can do the opposite, make you lose weight. I've been on the stuff for more than 6 months, it helps prevent migraines and kills some of my anhedonia, improved sleep quality, but no effect on anxiety. In fact when I was switched around on some of the generics I had a very rough time of it, especially with the Watson. For the first time in my life I had full blown acute attacks with palpitations, and crashes of extreme lethargy. I later learned it was because some of the generics were releasing the drug too quickly, all generics are being re-evaulated right now and compared to Wellbutrin, so far two generics have beem pulled from the market. Only three generics passed equivalency so far.

If you're looking at bupropion for the dopamine support, perhaps give d-phenylalanine (not dl-) or mucuna 15% (no higher % l-dopa) at try first. During the bupropion crazy I tried to take myself off and used d-phenylalanine to bridge the gap, which it did very well until I got migraines (from increase in tyramine, something nonmigraineurs don't have to worry about). But if you still want to try bupropion, and you're getting a generic, make sure it is a Mylan.

I believe lysine needs to be used regularly and between 1 and 3 grams a day for optimal results. 500mg is not a lot, for example there is frequently several grams per dose of whey protein, it varies with brand but that should give you an idea of how much lysine we take in with our proteins.

Theanine has been kind to me. Maybe you'll like it.

Edited by Duchykins, 13 July 2014 - 11:29 PM.

[DrSteveBrule]

GABAergic damage is cumulative, it doesn't happen overnight. Regardless of what you wish to believe, phenibut *will* catch up with you and Ashwaganda, Valerian, etc., all can do so eventually as well.

Could you provide a citation on the cumulative damage that can occur with sporadic use of GABAergics?  I'm genuinely curious and want to take care of myself in the best way possible.

 

After ~ 6 months of careful and considered GABAergic usage (as well as non-GABAergic anxiolytics), I would not hesitate to recommend responsible self-medication for mild anxiety.  I feel healthier and better able to confront situations that trigger stress and anxiety whether or not I've taken anything to combat those feelings.  I attribute some of that to the sort of "exposure therapy" that I've been able to achieve by taking anxiolytics for such situations.

 

Anyway, based on my experience and what I've read on the subject, I think there can be a role for GABAergics in treating anxiety.  Responsible treatment, as I understand it, shouldn't lead to tolerance or withdrawal (though I hope you will point me towards further reading on cumulative effects).

 

I want to add that I have the utmost empathy for those that suffer with anxiety.  I know that what I deal with on a day-to-day basis is quite mild compared to many people.

[DrSteveBrule]

I found this recent meta-analysis of meta-analyses interesting:

 

 

Benzodiazepines vs antidepressants for anxiety disorders

 

http://www.psychiatr...xiety-disorders

A recent systematic review and meta-analysis that compared benzodiazepines with antidepressants for anxiety disorders has triggered a debate among clinicians about first-line treatments, efficacy for specific disorders, and adverse effects.

...

First-line treatment?

 

Fava and Roy-Byrne disagreed about using benzodiazepines as first-line treatment for anxiety disorders. "Benzodiazepines should be considered first-line pharmacological treatment for all anxiety disorders with the possible exception of obsessive-compulsive disorder," said Fava, adding that drugs generally should not be the first-line treatment for anxiety disorders, because psychotherapy is very effective.

 

"I don't think anybody anymore realistically thinks benzodiazepines should be used as first-line [pharmacological] treatments," Roy-Byrne countered. He also questioned the practice of using benzodiazepines to help reduce anxiety during the initial weeks of treatment with antidepressants when anxiolytic effects have yet to occur. (7) "In my experience, except in rare cases, using low doses of antidepressants and being in contact with patients frequently enough to answer their questions and provide them reassurance is usually sufficient to help them get used to the antidepressant over time. It introduces more logistic complications to put them on a benzodiazepine and then to take them off of it six or eight weeks later."

 

The most common use of benzodiazepines, Roy-Byrne said, is in combination with antidepressants for individuals who have had suboptimal responses to antidepressants. He uses benzodiazepines as "second-line" treatments for patients with anxiety disorders, but continues them for the long term only if he sees substantial clinical improvement. "Most of the time it is not worthwhile to use them to just take the edge off symptomatic distress," he said, noting that behavioral treatment might be a better alternative.

 

While he prescribes benzodiazepines for anxiety disorders in some of his patients, Roy-Byrne said GAD is "the absolute worst anxiety disorder" for which to use benzodiazepines, because GAD is a difficult diagnosis to make and is often comorbid with other disorders. "Using benzodiazepines for PTSD over the long term is also likely to produce more harm than good, though very short-term use in recently traumatized patients is a sound practice." He said that it is better to use benzodiazepines for panic disorder and social anxiety disorder, "because they are easier to diagnose and less likely to be confused with other disorders, such as personality disorder or a subacute alcohol problem."

 

Advantages and drawbacks

 

Both Fava and Roy-Byrne were asked about the advantages and drawbacks of benzodiazepines for anxiety disorders. "Benzodiazepines are fast-acting and very well-tolerated drugs with few side effects and interactions with other medications. Their drawbacks are cognitive effects and dependence," said Fava.

 

According to Roy-Byrne, the advantages of benzodiazepines "are that they are extremely potent and work very well. A disadvantage is that you can become physically dependent on them, although to be fair, there is also a withdrawal syndrome with antidepressants." Other disadvantages include cognitive and psychomotor impairments, abuse potential, and most importantly, the possibility, not yet conclusively demonstrated, of a reduced response to CBT. Benzodiazepines tend to be anti-CBT treatments.

 

"Whereas CBT is very good for anxiety because it toughens you up, improves your coping ability, and lets you become more resilient to stress, benzodiazepines do the exact opposite," he said. "It has not been extensively investigated, but it is probably true that benzodiazepines may sometimes interfere with CBT programs. CBT requires some anxiety that individuals need to experience upon exposure to desensitize themselves over time. But if they take a potent anti-anxiety drug, they just won't be anxious."

 

"I agree that in some investigations, notably the London-Toronto study [by Nardi and colleagues (5)], use of benzodiazepines decreased the efficacy of CBT," said Fava. The same effect is seen with antidepressants in panic disorder and social phobia. (8-10) Furthermore, "long-term outcome studies of panic disorder treated by behavioral methods disclosed a detrimental effect of antidepressants and not benzodiazepines." (11) Antidepressants also entail the risk of a switch into an undiagnosed bipolar course, particularly in younger patients.

 

With regard to the newer anti depressants for anxiety disorders, Roy-Byrne said "they are well-tolerated and they work more slowly than benzodiazepines, so they don't provide patients with a clear-cut signaling link between taking a pill and feeling an anti-anxiety affect." There aren't many drawbacks with the antidepressants, other than the sexual dysfunction associated with most of the agents.

 

Studies

 

The most common reason for using benzodiazepines is to add them to antidepressants when treating anxiety disorders that have not optimally responded to an initial antidepressant. According to Roy-Byrne, there is currently no published study comparing this strategy with switching the antidepressant, although a report of the study is in press, which may provide needed information in this debate.

 

Fava and Rickels call for further comparison studies, conducted, when possible, by non-industry sources. "A well-conducted comparison trial of a benzodiazepine and a newer antidepressant simply does not exist, neither for acute nor chronic treatment," Rickels said.

 

In an editorial on whether benzodiazepines still have a role in treating patients with anxiety disorders, Baldwin and Talat (12) said, "There is a persisting need for placebo-controlled combination studies in acute treatment; for placebo-controlled augmentation studies after nonresponse, for example, after unsuccessful treatment with a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor or cognitive behavior therapy; and for well-designed relapse prevention studies."

 

[Ethrem]

You would have to wait for someone more knowledgeable than me to shine the light on how GABA downregulates long term with even short term exposure, I'm no use for those things. My brain could probably wrap itself around the concept if I wasn't actively in withdrawal but its a bit too much right now. I am not a perfect model because of my drinking off and on since I was 17 so going by what happened with me would not be beneficial at all. I have heard of people using phenibut responsibly and still getting hooked on it - that one is particularly easy to get an addiction to. Benzodiazepines are great on an occasional basis but what happens is you start shortening your definition of "too much" anxiety over time. It can take weeks for some, months, or even years, but eventually everyone starts falling into the benzo trap. Its so easy to take a pill to remove the discomfort than to deal with it (most anxiety attacks are short lived and go away when you ride them out, in fact most of my severe panic attacks likely wore off before the benzos ever actually kicked in which meant I was taking the benzo for nothing). As long as you can avoid falling in that trap, you'll be fine. Its really hard to avoid that trap though and the rebound symptoms are pretty much impossible to ignore, especially with short half life benzos like Xanax.

 

Phenibut really is bad though. I don't know where they got the 5 hour half life from because the stuff can easily last 2 days or more - either it binds to GABA-B just that strongly or it has at least a 12 hour half life.

 

I second the warning on bupropion... that drug is horrible for anxiety, it made mine so much worse and I don't know anybody who took it with pre-existing anxiety and was successful with it by itself. It appears to do wonders in combination with citalopram though in lower doses. That might actually be worth investigating. Celexa was extremely effective for my anxiety - the problem that emerged though is that it made me hypomanic and resulted in me not only being taken off of it but misdiagnosed as bipolar and the discontinuation syndrome was hell.

Edited by Ethrem, 14 July 2014 - 01:13 AM.

[DrSteveBrule]

Thanks for sharing your experiences with bupropion, Duchykins and Ethrem. I haven't really considered whether I need dopamine support. I sort of don't feel like going down another neurotransmitter rabbit hole right now.

I actually already have protein shakes almost daily, so I'm pretty sure I'm getting a good supply of lysine. I have the supplement just to try to isolate the effects.

Do you take theanine daily, Duchykins? Have you noticed any tolerance or withdrawal? How marked are the effects? I'm somewhat skeptical that theanine is any safer than any other GABAergic drug. If someone can explain why upregulating GABA production is any safer than other GABAergic mechanisms, I'll happily revise that stance.

[DrSteveBrule]

I have heard of people using phenibut responsibly and still getting hooked on it - that one is particularly easy to get an addiction to. Benzodiazepines are great on an occasional basis but what happens is you start shortening your definition of "too much" anxiety over time. It can take weeks for some, months, or even years, but eventually everyone starts falling into the benzo trap. Its so easy to take a pill to remove the discomfort than to deal with it (most anxiety attacks are short lived and go away when you ride them out, in fact most of my severe panic attacks likely wore off before the benzos ever actually kicked in which meant I was taking the benzo for nothing). As long as you can avoid falling in that trap, you'll be fine. Its really hard to avoid that trap though and the rebound symptoms are pretty much impossible to ignore, especially with short half life benzos like Xanax.
 
Phenibut really is bad though. I don't know where they got the 5 hour half life from because the stuff can easily last 2 days or more - either it binds to GABA-B just that strongly or it has at least a 12 hour half life.

I've actually been using phenibut increasingly less often and at the same dose I started at, so I'm just not going to worry about what you're suggesting is inevitable. I bought a 40g tub of it in February and it's ~ 75% full. Yes, there are a lot of commonalities in the human brain across the population, but let's not discount differences.

Edited by DrSteveBrule, 14 July 2014 - 01:29 AM.

[Ethrem]

When it comes right down to it, there is so much that isn't known about how these systems actually function. Case in point being all the people who have success with Relora when I just found out that its not only GABAergic but it is a positive allosteric modulator at the BZD site just like a benzo.

 

Sometimes I am a little bit too safe with recommending things to people. That likely comes from my years as a Bluelight forum member trying to push harm reduction. If you're responsible, its possible to manage anything because you can monitor your own intake. I think benzos are more insidious than most things. Phenibut does not feel like a benzo to me and while I could see myself getting addicted to it, it doesn't have the immediate rebound that benzos do so the few times I used it, I didn't need to use more so I see your point there.

 

I think if you can avoid actually taking benzodiazepines, you're much better off than even using them occasionally but as you said, everyone's different and I have to remember this isn't Bluelight.

 

You have options that I didn't though. Back when I was put on benzos, I didn't know anything about GABAergic substances or what they can do. Had I known... I am 90% sure that I would have told the doc to shove that script and stuck with beer personally lol.

[Duchykins]

Thanks for sharing your experiences with bupropion, Duchykins and Ethrem. I haven't really considered whether I need dopamine support. I sort of don't feel like going down another neurotransmitter rabbit hole right now.

I actually already have protein shakes almost daily, so I'm pretty sure I'm getting a good supply of lysine. I have the supplement just to try to isolate the effects.

Do you take theanine daily, Duchykins? Have you noticed any tolerance or withdrawal? How marked are the effects? I'm somewhat skeptical that theanine is any safer than any other GABAergic drug. If someone can explain why upregulating GABA production is any safer than other GABAergic mechanisms, I'll happily revise that stance.

I've been taking theanine daily for roughly 4 months. I used to use 100mg at night only with ambien, and did that for a few months before I began to suspect theanine might be compromising my sleep quality. So I started using in the daytime, taking it with bupropion twice daily in the hopes that the theanine would mitigate the bupropion rage/panic, and it did a bit but it wasn't long lasting, that might be due to my tendency to low dose stuff until I'm more comfortable with its effects. I can attest to theanine positively enhancing ambien, I never drink so I can't speak to theanine's interactio with alcohol. I've noticed no tolerance and can't speak to withdrawal since I haven't been off of it for more than a week, and with gabaergics its common for the withdrawal horror to be delayed for several days, something I recently learned with ambien.

I have wondered at theanine's mechanisms, and tried to talk to my doc about it, talking about trying somethimg similar but with better understood mechanisms on serotonin, dopamine and gaba, but she is just a GP and doesn't know much about amino acids or supplements in general. I decided theanine was, at worst, a far lesser evil than true benzos or many supplemental gaba agonists, and at best, sorcery.

A major factor in my decision to keep it as a permanent member of my stack is the fact that theanine, as a glutamate analog, can help prevent glutamate excitoxicity induced migraines, which I'm very vulnerable to. I've tried untold numbers of things in my desperation to be free of migraine, and theanine is one of the few that has tangible and consistent results. Whenever I take a racetam I often take an extra dose of theanine because I know I'm playing with glutamate fire. But that is something that is not particularly compelling for people who don't have migraine, unless they have a specific interest in protecting themselves from excitotoxicty.

Edited by Duchykins, 14 July 2014 - 01:53 AM.

[Duchykins]

When it comes right down to it, there is so much that isn't known about how these systems actually function. Case in point being all the people who have success with Relora when I just found out that its not only GABAergic but it is a positive allosteric modulator at the BZD site just like a benzo.
 
Sometimes I am a little bit too safe with recommending things to people. That likely comes from my years as a Bluelight forum member trying to push harm reduction. If you're responsible, its possible to manage anything because you can monitor your own intake. I think benzos are more insidious than most things. Phenibut does not feel like a benzo to me and while I could see myself getting addicted to it, it doesn't have the immediate rebound that benzos do so the few times I used it, I didn't need to use more so I see your point there.
 
I think if you can avoid actually taking benzodiazepines, you're much better off than even using them occasionally but as you said, everyone's different and I have to remember this isn't Bluelight.
 
You have options that I didn't though. Back when I was put on benzos, I didn't know anything about GABAergic substances or what they can do. Had I known... I am 90% sure that I would have told the doc to shove that script and stuck with beer personally lol.

Hell yes.


The first time I had benzos was years and years ago, it was klonopin and I think ativan, and I think my intolerance of being stupefied is what protected me from dependence. I would have almost certainly began walking an uglier road back then. Knowing what I know now, I am so grateful I only took them a couple of times before selling the rest and telling the doc not to renew the prescriptions.


I had a doc get frustrated on me once because I was being 'combative' and noncompliant by refusing to fill the benzo prescriptions he kept sending to the pharmacy. I told him ambien was bad enough and I was not going to add true benzo to the mix, especially when there were so many other options left to explore. He eventually told me he couldn't be my doctor anymore if I didn't at least try it for a week... so I found the doc I have now, and she tried to give me a benzo once and left me alone after that, except insisting I see a pdoc which I was more than ready for at that point. I kept saying I would look for a pdoc and make an appointment but I dunno, I kept 'forgetting' and she eventually made one for me, which I am grateful for.

[Ethrem]

Well I have to say I don't think the Relora was a fluke. Again last night I took it and my mirtazapine and again I slept extremely well with very vivid dreams and had a hard time waking up for the alarm (although I did this time and took my pills, including a Relora in the morning) and I'm much less anxious than I have been lately. Its pretty remarkable. I feel pretty okay all things considered.

[tolerant]

 

However, FISH OIL (EPA / DHA) causes and/or exacerbates DEPRESSION and/or ANXIETY for many individuals...

 

 

Before I read this, I thought I've heard it all. Does anybody have any evidence of fish oil causing or exacerbating depression or anxiety???

Edited by tolerant, 25 July 2014 - 02:14 PM.

[Duchykins]

I don't see why you find that so incredulous. Fish oil increases dopamine, surely you can conceive how more dopamine is the LAST thing some people need (don't forget that dopamine is eventually converted into norepinephrine), and in others, can trigger an episode of hypomania.

[typ3z3r0]

 

Fish oil is a mood stabilizator for me.

However, FISH OIL (EPA / DHA) causes and/or exacerbates DEPRESSION and/or ANXIETY for many individuals...

 

 

Do know of any studies demonstrating that? The only ones I've seen have shown the opposite... :P

[Duchykins]

Okay

1) Scienceguy hasn't been heard from in a while

2) No psychoactive substance has the same effect on everybody. Did I really just have to say that?

3) Fish oil is DOPAMINERGIC. It also effects SEROTONIN. It also raises ACETYLCHOLINE. For all of these reasons, some people will have a hard time with fish oil. Why is this difficult? How can anyone know these things and not take that knowledge to its logical consequence?

4) For every 1000 studies showing antidepressants alleviating depression and anxiety, there is one showing antidepressants causing depression and anxiety, and only very recently. Has fish oil been that heavily studied yet, or for as long?

5) Knowledge of the effects of supplements, being relatively under-studied, relies at least in part on anecdotal evidence. A cursory search will bring up pages of links of people asking if fish oil can make them depressed (because they started fish oil a week or two prior and they feel like shit), asking if fish oil can cause anxiety (because when they take fish oil they feel anxious or irritable), asking if fish oil can cause hypomania, if fish oil can cause insomnia, etc. It's fairly safe to say that all of these are potential side effects of fish oil. Does any supplement not have its own little list of potential adverse effects, and if so, is fish oil one of those supplements?


Arguing against these things means you are deliberately or inadvertently taking a position that assumes "fish oil does not increase dopamine or acetylcholine". That vaguely resembles a null hypothesis, and is a testable one, but that negative has already been proven wrong.

Edited by Duchykins, 26 July 2014 - 05:29 AM.

[Duchykins]

While I'm here, I might as well ask if anyone has the low-down on low dose lithium for anxiety. Any takers? It wasn't mentioned on the first page.

[tolerant]

Okay

1) Scienceguy hasn't been heard from in a while

2) No psychoactive substance has the same effect on everybody. Did I really just have to say that?

3) Fish oil is DOPAMINERGIC. It also effects SEROTONIN. It also increases ACETYLCHOLINE. For all of these reasons, some people will have a hard time with fish oil. Why is this difficult? How can anyone know these things and not take that knowledge to its logical consequence?

4) For every 1000 studies showing antidepressants alleviating depression and anxiety, there is one showing antidepressants causing depression and anxiety, and only very recently. Has fish oil been that heavily studied yet, or for as long?

5) Knowledge of the effects of supplements, being relatively under-studied, relies at least in part on anecdotal evidence. A cursory search will bring up pages of links of people asking if fish oil can make them depressed (because they started fish oil a week or two prior and they feel like shit), asking if fish oil can cause anxiety (because when they take fish oil they feel anxious or irritable), asking if fish oil can cause hypomania, if fish oil can cause insomnia, etc. It's fairly safe to say that all of these are potential side effects of fish oil. Does any supplement not have its own little list of potential adverse effects, and if so, is fish oil one of those supplements?


Arguing against these things means you are deliberately or inadvertently taking a position that assumes "fish oil does not increase dopamine or acetylcholine". That vaguely resembles a null hypothesis, and is a testable one, but that negative has already been proven wrong.

 

What you're saying makes perfect sense. I must admit that I didn't know that fish oil was dopaminergic. Neither did I know of the anecdotal stories of fish oil making people feel worse. I guess I never researched fish oil thoroughly because of the overwhelming tide of support for it that seems to exist nowadays. And I never accidentally came across any anecdotal reports of it being harmful which would prompt me to research it further. My own experience with fish oil is that it hasn't made an iota of difference to how I feel, after trying both ordinary supermarket brand fish oil and the 7:1 EPA:DHA ratio fish oil recommended in some circles. 

 

I do, however, have one follow-up question to you. And please pardon my ignorance, I don't have a scientific background, and I generally like to stay away from researching stuff that I'm taking or considering taking, because I'm very impressionable and research generally increases my anxiety, but when you say that fish oil is "dopaminergic", aren't many common supplements or even common foods "dopamingergic" to a greater or lesser extent. So I guess my question is: is fish oil highly dopamingergic or does it just demonstrate some dopaminergic activity?

[tolerant]

While I'm here, I might as well ask if anyone has the low-down on low dose lithium for anxiety. Any takers? It wasn't mentioned on the first page.

 

I don't have the low-down on low dose lithium, and my experience does not relate to what you probably understand by "low" does lithium, but I'll share it here briefly anyway.

 

1. I was prescribed 900 mg daily of lithium orotate a day as an adjunct to antidepressant therapy. I stuck with this does for about 6 weeks and felt absolutely no improvement.

 

2. I experimented with 450 mg daily of the same substance and noticed modest improvement which lasted for about two-three days around the fourth to sixth day of the trial and then totally disappeared, returning to baseline.

 

3. I experimented with 225 mg daily of the same substance and noticed very significant improvement which kicked in about a week after starting the trial and persisted for about five days, then again totally disappeared, returning to baseline.

 

4. I experimented with 122.5 mg daily of the same substance and didn't notice any improvement, however this was at exactly the same time when I had a strong positive response to starting Lyrica, and was significantly above my baseline, so any improvement from lithium could have been "lost" in the response I was exhibiting to Lyrica.

 

5. Each of the above trial generally followed a "wash-out" period or were commenced when I had no lithium in my blood to begin with.

 

6. After the transient modest success with 450 mg and significant success with 225 mg, I persisted with that does for a few weeks to see whether the response would return, but it didn't. 

 

7. I can speculate that instances of "losing" the response could have been a result of getting overexcited about the response, which resulted in greater anxiety, but if you go by that logic you could attribute almost any response to any medication to psychological factors.

 

8. I have unearthed some found studies that could potentially explain why a person would respond better to lower doses and why the effect could diminished with time. If anyone is interested, I can unearth them and post them here.

 

9. I know that when you talk about low-dose lithium, you probably mean doses of around 10 mg, which are one to two orders of magnitude lower than my doses, but my experience adds evidence to the fact that lower doses can work better.

 

10. The reason I am posting this in such great detail is because as far as I understand, my experience was contrary to established psychiatric wisdom, which holds that certain blood levels have to be achieved for a response to manifest (which typically involves the person taking about a 900 mg dose), while doses below that are useless. But correct my if I'm wrong.

[Duchykins]

Sorry for being so crotchety, I seem to be cranky and impatient today. I have mental problems.

I believe, and I could be wrong here, that the amount and ratio of EPA and DHA in a dose of fish oil matters, since each of these have their own effects on dopamine (and acetylcholine). The effects are potent enough that both EPA and DHA have application in treating attention deficit problems, and enough that it warranted further study, but right now fish oil is being used for that purpose by many. There is early evidence that EPA can have antipsychotic effects, and some mental health professionals are already using it to enhance the effects of prescription antipsychotics. And of course fish oil being used in treating depression. So the effects seems less potent than prescriptions, but more potent than foods. I know how vague that sounds, heh.

It's potent enough to make some people feel good or energized soon after taking fish oil, or feel jumpy/irritable/tired or have trouble sleeping later on that night. That's if anything is noticed at all. It's just another one of those things, like any supplement, any psychiatric prescription, that depends on the chemistry of the individual.

[Duchykins]

While I'm here, I might as well ask if anyone has the low-down on low dose lithium for anxiety. Any takers? It wasn't mentioned on the first page.

I don't have the low-down on low dose lithium, and my experience does not relate to what you probably understand by "low" does lithium, but I'll share it here briefly anyway.

1. I was prescribed 900 mg daily of lithium orotate a day as an adjunct to antidepressant therapy. I stuck with this does for about 6 weeks and felt absolutely no improvement.

2. I experimented with 450 mg daily of the same substance and noticed modest improvement which lasted for about two-three days around the fourth to sixth day of the trial and then totally disappeared, returning to baseline.

3. I experimented with 225 mg daily of the same substance and noticed very significant improvement which kicked in about a week after starting the trial and persisted for about five days, then again totally disappeared, returning to baseline.

4. I experimented with 122.5 mg daily of the same substance and didn't notice any improvement, however this was at exactly the same time when I had a strong positive response to starting Lyrica, and was significantly above my baseline, so any improvement from lithium could have been "lost" in the response I was exhibiting to Lyrica.

5. Each of the above trial generally followed a "wash-out" period or were commenced when I had no lithium in my blood to begin with.

6. After the transient modest success with 450 mg and significant success with 225 mg, I persisted with that does for a few weeks to see whether the response would return, but it didn't.

7. I can speculate that instances of "losing" the response could have been a result of getting overexcited about the response, which resulted in greater anxiety, but if you go by that logic you could attribute almost any response to any medication to psychological factors.

8. I have unearthed some found studies that could potentially explain why a person would respond better to lower doses and why the effect could diminished with time. If anyone is interested, I can unearth them and post them here.

9. I know that when you talk about low-dose lithium, you probably mean doses of around 10 mg, which are one to two orders of magnitude lower than my doses, but my experience adds evidence to the fact that lower doses can work better.

10. The reason I am posting this in such great detail is because as far as I understand, my experience was contrary to established psychiatric wisdom, which holds that certain blood levels have to be achieved for a response to manifest (which typically involves the person taking about a 900 mg dose), while doses below that are useless. But correct my if I'm wrong.

I know very little about lithium, but what you're saying does make some sense to me because piracetam (for example) can have different and sometimes better effects when low dosed.

[StevesPetRat]

If you're looking at bupropion for the dopamine support, perhaps give d-phenylalanine (not dl-) or mucuna 15% (no higher % l-dopa) at try first.

 

 

Are you sure you don't mean L-phenylalanine? D- is the enkephalinase inhibitor and is only very weakly converted to L- and then tyrosine etc in vivo.

 

...Well, AFAIK.

[Duchykins]

No, I meant d-phenylalanine. The body converts a small fraction of the d- into l-phenylalanine. But that's irrevelant when you're not trying to get l-phenylalanine, and actually I wish none of it was converted so I can actually go back to using it. You WANT what only the d- does.


I'm too crabby to get into d-phenyl therapeutic uses. Look it up yourself.

[EfeitoPlacebo]

No, I meant d-phenylalanine. The body converts a small fraction of the d- into l-phenylalanine. But that's irrevelant when you're not trying to get l-phenylalanine, and actually I wish none of it was converted so I can actually go back to using it. You WANT what only the d- does.


I'm too crabby to get into d-phenyl therapeutic uses. Look it up yourself.

 

Could you tell us about the d-phenyl therapeutic uses? I could find it. thaanks

[Ames]

 

If you're looking at bupropion for the dopamine support, perhaps give d-phenylalanine (not dl-) or mucuna 15% (no higher % l-dopa) at try first.

 

 

Are you sure you don't mean L-phenylalanine? D- is the enkephalinase inhibitor and is only very weakly converted to L- and then tyrosine etc in vivo.

 

...Well, AFAIK.

 

 

In my research, I haven't found a single way to 'support' dopamine via supplementation that wasn't confirmed to be long term dangerous in research or anecdote. If you search well enough on this forum, there is enough anecdotal evidence against even selegilene to make any rational person avoid it (one member claimed to be near a sttae of Parkinson's after long term use). Personally, my experience with taking L-Phenylalanine in the very short term was alarming memory impairment that wasn't really very transient.  I suspect that it promotes high levels of oxidation in specific regions of the brain. I also believe that mucuna, as well as anything else that stimulates dopiminergic neurons, presents too much of a motor neuron/parkinsons risk. I just wanted to throw that out there, and will continue to do so when I see dopamine support mentioned on this board. Personally,  in my experience and research, the only safe methods to promote increased dopaminergic tone are abstinence from dopamine stimulation as well as  through exercise and, perhaps, CR mimetic supplements.

Edited by golgi1, 04 August 2014 - 06:59 AM.

[Galaxyshock]

In my research, I haven't found a single way to 'support' dopamine via supplementation that wasn't confirmed to be long term dangerous in research or anecdote. If you search well enough on this forum, there is enough anecdotal evidence against even selegilene to make any rational person avoid it (one member claimed to be near a sttae of Parkinson's after long term use). Personally, my experience with taking L-Phenylalanine in the very short term was alarming memory impairment that wasn't really very transient.  I suspect that it promotes high levels of oxidation in specific regions of the brain. I also believe that mucuna, as well as anything else that stimulates dopiminergic neurons, presents too much of a motor neuron/parkinsons risk. I just wanted to throw that out there, and will continue to do so when I see dopamine support mentioned on this board. Personally,  in my experience and research, the only safe methods to promote increased dopaminergic tone are abstinence from dopamine stimulation as well as  through exercise and, perhaps, CR mimetic supplements.

 

 

Jiaogulan has shown potential to actually restore dopaminergic function and possibly prevent parkinson's

Edited by Galaxyshock, 04 August 2014 - 01:06 PM.

[Duchykins]

If you're looking at bupropion for the dopamine support, perhaps give d-phenylalanine (not dl-) or mucuna 15% (no higher % l-dopa) at try first.

Are you sure you don't mean L-phenylalanine? D- is the enkephalinase inhibitor and is only very weakly converted to L- and then tyrosine etc in vivo.

...Well, AFAIK.

In my research, I haven't found a single way to 'support' dopamine via supplementation that wasn't confirmed to be long term dangerous in research or anecdote. If you search well enough on this forum, there is enough anecdotal evidence against even selegilene to make any rational person avoid it (one member claimed to be near a sttae of Parkinson's after long term use). Personally, my experience with taking L-Phenylalanine in the very short term was alarming memory impairment that wasn't really very transient. I suspect that it promotes high levels of oxidation in specific regions of the brain. I also believe that mucuna, as well as anything else that stimulates dopiminergic neurons, presents too much of a motor neuron/parkinsons risk. I just wanted to throw that out there, and will continue to do so when I see dopamine support mentioned on this board. Personally, in my experience and research, the only safe methods to promote increased dopaminergic tone are abstinence from dopamine stimulation as well as through exercise and, perhaps, CR mimetic supplements.

L-phenylalanine is not d-, they do not produce the same effects in studies on depression, the l- is fairly useless from a therapeutic standpoint, they are not appropriate comparisons, and I don't think the l- is suitable for these kinds of uses anyway, even in the short term. I used d-phenylalanine when I took myself off bupropion for about a month, and I experienced none of the withdrawals and dopamine crashes I did the previous attempt to stop bupropion. The only downside was increase in migraine which is why I said I wish none of the d- was converted to l- in the body since it will eventually lead to an increase in tyramine.

The mucuna usually used around boards like these are the 60% and 90%+ l-dopa extracts which I think no one should use unless they already have Parkinson's.



http://www.med.nyu.e...?ChunkIID=21664

The magnolia in relora is known to interact with dopamine but isn't well understood at this time (if agonist or antagonist), but that is part of its efficacy.

Other than some other herbs that only gently interact with dopamine (from a relative standpoint) like jiaogulan or ginkgo, you are correct about dopamine promotion and safety. There is very little out there at the moment.

Edited by Duchykins, 04 August 2014 - 03:28 PM.