223 replies to this topic

[noos]

How does Mg threonate compares to pidolate?

With regards to what exactly? Ability to elevate brain magnesium levels? Claimed nootropic effects?

Both

[nito]

This thread title is sad to read.

Sad indeed. It would be wonderful if the necessary studies were conducted and published to properly substantiate the marketing claims being made about Mg Threonate, but sadly at the present time they simply do not exist. A couple of RAT STUDIES, which is all that exists at the current moment in time is wholly insufficient.

Haha hey you're back. Mad scientist, with the smileys:)

[wolfeye]

Absorption of magnesium from orally administered magnesium sulfate in man.


The use of magnesium sulfate (Epsom salt) as a cathartic in patients with impaired renal function can lead to severe toxicity due to hypermagnesemia. Although toxicity is uncommon in healthy subjects, little is known concerning the extent of absorption of magnesium after a cathartic dose of magnesium sulfate. The bioavailability of magnesium following a large oral dose of magnesium sulfate in normal volunteers was examined in the present investigation. Baseline 24-hour urinary excretion rates of magnesium and creatinine were determined over 3 consecutive days in 6 healthy men. The oral administration of 13.9 g (56.5 mmoles) magnesium sulfate U.S.P., in 4 equal hourly increments, resulted in the urinary excretion (corrected for baseline excretion rate) of 4.0 +/- 2.9% (mean +/- SD) of the dose of magnesium during the first 24 hours and 6.9 +/- 7.0% of the dose during a 72-hour interval. Magnesium sulfate administration had no effect on the 24-hour urinary excretion rate of creatinine. The baseline excretion rate of magnesium was significantly correlated with that of creatinine (r = 0.875) and inorganic sulfate (r = 0.921). All of the subjects experienced mild or moderate diarrhea. Therefore, magnesium is absorbed to a limited and variable extent in healthy adults following a cathartic dose of magnesium sulfate.

PMID: 3430654

Absorption of sulfate from orally administered magnesium sulfate in man.

The purpose of this investigation was to determine the suitability of orally administered magnesium sulfate as a source of inorganic sulfate for counteracting the systemic depletion of sulfate caused by large doses of acetaminophen and certain other drugs that are metabolized to sulfate conjugates. Oral administration of 13.9 g magnesium sulfate U.S.P., in 4 equal hourly increments, to seven healthy men resulted in the urinary excretion (corrected for baseline excretion rate) of an amount of inorganic sulfate equivalent to 30.2 +/- 17.2 percent (mean +/- SD) of the dose during the first 24 hours. Excretion during the subsequent 48 hours was negligible. Six of the subjects experienced loose stools or diarrhea. Compared to sodium sulfate, magnesium sulfate appears to be absorbed less completely and more erratically, and to produce more adverse effects.

PMID: 6887305

Edited by wolfeye, 22 July 2012 - 03:16 PM.

[1thoughtMaze1]

Positive reviews on Mgt

http://www.swansonvi...U700/ItemDetail

[BarrelBoy]

Yes, and the majority of those anonymous positive reviews came from "users" with no other product reviews. A few had two reviews within days of each other.

[Raptor87]

So have you guy's brought St. Johns wort up? Any studies about it and how it works?

Edited by Brainfogged, 17 September 2012 - 08:13 PM.

[1thoughtMaze1]

Broken are you saying that Swanson is posting fake positive reviews about their own products to boost sales?? That would be highly unethical, tell em science guy.

[BarrelBoy]

No. You could say I am intimating that the posting of fake reviews for Swanson's L-Threonate (whether they be Swanson affiliated or anyone else with an interest in promoting L-Threonate) certainly seems plausible to me given the overwhelming amount of glowing reviews by users who have only reviewed that product. I'd argue that it might be prudent to investigate activity that seems suspicious a bit further before drawing unequivocal conclusions. I agree, it would be unethical.

[protoject]

Does anyone here have any comment on the difference between Magnesium Sulfate [bath, or injection which ever you do] and Magnesium Threonate? I'm considering getting threonate but not if the effect is practically the same. Only if it somehow saves me money in that case.

Edit: I mean, the difference in subjective effect.

Edited by protoject, 30 September 2012 - 08:36 PM.

[stephen_b]

Commentary article in Nature on Magtein: Testing magnesium's brain-boosting effects.

[ta5]

Commentary article in Nature on Magtein: Testing magnesium's brain-boosting effects.

The product contains magnesium threonate, in which the metal ion is paired with a low-molecular-weight metabolite of vitamin C that is already present in the brain.

Hmm, the brain contains glycine and taurine too. I'm still not sure why Magtein would be better than Mg Taurate or Glycinate. I tried Magtein for a month and I didn't notice a difference over citrate and glycinate or taurate, so I went back to those.

[Renegade]

I was thinking of switching to this form of magnesium. Now I'm not too sure. Anyone have any new information / experiences / suggestions?

Edited by Renegade, 28 October 2012 - 10:38 AM.

[ScienceGuy]

Yes, and the majority of those anonymous positive reviews came from "users" with no other product reviews. A few had two reviews within days of each other.

Broken are you saying that Swanson is posting fake positive reviews about their own products to boost sales?? That would be highly unethical, tell em science guy.

No. You could say I am intimating that the posting of fake reviews for Swanson's L-Threonate (whether they be Swanson affiliated or anyone else with an interest in promoting L-Threonate) certainly seems plausible to me given the overwhelming amount of glowing reviews by users who have only reviewed that product. I'd argue that it might be prudent to investigate activity that seems suspicious a bit further before drawing unequivocal conclusions. I agree, it would be unethical.

I have to agree with brokenyoga, in that it is unfortunately highly probable that these positive reviews were not in fact made by wholly unbiased users of MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE, but instead by a shill (or shills) for MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE, and as such should be taken with a very large pinch of salt

Whether these reviews, if they are indeed 'fake', were made by SWANSONS themselves (the supplier) or a shill (or shills) for the manufacturer of the MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE raw material itself cannot be known for certain; and hence I would hesitate pointing the finger so to speak... I would simply advise against taking said reviews as gospel or in any way proof

Incidentally, I could not help but notice that BURT SHULMAN, who I previously pointed out made two posts immediately after joining this forum wherein he vehemently pimped MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE without any substantiated scientific evidence existing at the time, has in fact not made ANY other posts in ANY other threads on this forum since... Mmmmm... this would appear to indicate that I was most certainly correct when I called him out on being a shill for MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE

With regards to the reported HUMAN STUDY on what are the effects of MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE on HUMANS (as opposed to RODENTS), I am afraid that as of today there is still no update. This is what was previously published about it:

"A human study for memory and cognitive function has just started at University of Southern California, Department of Psychology, with a leading expert in cognitive health. It is a double-blind, placebo-controlled study with 40 individuals. Preliminary results will be available mid-2012"

However, I cannot help but note that we are now nearly November 2012 and still no sign of those promised results... this is not a good indication

Edited by ScienceGuy, 28 October 2012 - 05:40 PM.

[CIMN]

so whats the best magnesium?

[protoject]

Mag Threonate must be more convenient unless youre the type of person to soak yourself in a bath every night, or even 3 times a week. Thing with Mag Threonate though is that you can also feel the effect of the threonine which is kind of confounding to the effect of the magnesium. Also there is such a small amount of magnesium in mag threonate... it's something like, 136 mg of elemental magnesium per 2 grams of mag threonate, so unless this form of magnesium is proven to be MUCH more bioavailible than other forms, or, rather that it is delivered to your brain with much better effectiveness, then I don't see how it would be more effective than Mag Sulfate. Right now I am taking 500 mg of mag threonate per day, based on the idea that the magnesium levels will build up better in my brain, but I don't even know if this is true. I'm pretty sure I just glanced at some pictures of graphs saying that it was more effective at raising brain levels in rats or mice than were other forms of supplementation. But I don't even know how much mag threonate these mice were taking. and personally I find 2grams of mag threonate to be kind of mood / mind disrupting, it's too much. Not sure if I'm comfortable taking that. I'm taking this small 500mg dose every day based on the good assumption, but maybe I'm just getting a tiny amount of magnesium into me. Who knows.

[burtshulman]

Yes, and the majority of those anonymous positive reviews came from "users" with no other product reviews. A few had two reviews within days of each other.

Broken are you saying that Swanson is posting fake positive reviews about their own products to boost sales?? That would be highly unethical, tell em science guy.

No. You could say I am intimating that the posting of fake reviews for Swanson's L-Threonate (whether they be Swanson affiliated or anyone else with an interest in promoting L-Threonate) certainly seems plausible to me given the overwhelming amount of glowing reviews by users who have only reviewed that product. I'd argue that it might be prudent to investigate activity that seems suspicious a bit further before drawing unequivocal conclusions. I agree, it would be unethical.

I have to agree with brokenyoga, in that it is unfortunately highly probable that these positive reviews were not in fact made by wholly unbiased users of MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE, but instead by a shill (or shills) for MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE, and as such should be taken with a very large pinch of salt

Whether these reviews, if they are indeed 'fake', were made by SWANSONS themselves (the supplier) or a shill (or shills) for the manufacturer of the MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE raw material itself cannot be known for certain; and hence I would hesitate pointing the finger so to speak... I would simply advise against taking said reviews as gospel or in any way proof

Incidentally, I could not help but notice that BURT SHULMAN, who I previously pointed out made two posts immediately after joining this forum wherein he vehemently pimped MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE without any substantiated scientific evidence existing at the time, has in fact not made ANY other posts in ANY other threads on this forum since... Mmmmm... this would appear to indicate that I was most certainly correct when I called him out on being a shill for MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE

With regards to the reported HUMAN STUDY on what are the effects of MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE on HUMANS (as opposed to RODENTS), I am afraid that as of today there is still no update. This is what was previously published about it:

"A human study for memory and cognitive function has just started at University of Southern California, Department of Psychology, with a leading expert in cognitive health. It is a double-blind, placebo-controlled study with 40 individuals. Preliminary results will be available mid-2012"

However, I cannot help but note that we are now nearly November 2012 and still no sign of those promised results... this is not a good indication

[burtshulman]

Hey ScienceGuy,

Wrong again.....me (Burt Shulman)...a shill for Mag Threonate? Your wasting your breath, ScienceGay, and the the forum's time when you make wild accusations.
Forget Mag Threonate and Sulphate, my preferred form of magnesium is Magnesium Bicarbonate (in water), which I make for about 20 cents/liter (1500mg Mag/liter). It has 50% intestinal absorption and it has the added benefit of having a pH of about 9, which alkalizes the urine and results in magnesium conservation.
This is most important, because low magnesium levels are caused by both low intake and renal wasting. Here is one of many articles from Pubmed on the subject, in this case using Potassium Bicarbonate as the alkalizing agent.

Magnes Res. 2009 Dec;22(4):262-5.
Acid-base conditions regulate calcium and magnesium homeostasis.
Rylander R, Tallheden T, Vormann J.
Source

BioFact Environmental Health Research Center, Lerum, Sweden. envhealth@biofact.se
Abstract
BACKGROUND:

Previous experimental studies demonstrate that the acid-base balance influences mineral homeostasis by regulating the absorption of calcium and magnesium in the kidneys. No intervention studies are available on population samples.
AIMS:

To study the urinary excretion of calcium and magnesium before and after an intervention with the aim of decreasing the acid load.
METHODS:

Healthy subjects aged 50-75 years were recruited by advertising. Urinary calcium, magnesium and urea as well as blood pressure were measured before and after the intervention. This comprised taking tablets containing potassium hydrogen carbonate or potassium chloride (placebo) during 7-10 days.
RESULTS:

There were significant relationships between the urinary excretion of urea and magnesium and calcium before the intervention. Comparing before and after intervention, the change in urinary excretion of urea was related to a change in urinary excretion of calcium and magnesium. There was a significant decrease in systolic as well as diastolic blood pressure both after administration of potassium hydrogen carbonate and citrate.
CONCLUSION:

The results confirm previous studies showing a relation between acid conditions in the body and the excretion of calcium and add new data on magnesium. A blood pressure decrease after potassium has been found in previous studies. This suggests an alternative for the treatment of moderately increased levels of blood pressure that should be further explored.

Edited by burtshulman, 29 October 2012 - 05:44 AM.

[ScienceGuy]

Hey ScienceGuy,

Wrong again.....me (Burt Shulman)...a shill for Mag Threonate? Your wasting your breath, ScienceGay, and the the forum's time when you make wild accusations.
Forget Mag Threonate and Sulphate, my preferred form of magnesium is Magnesium Bicarbonate (in water)...,

Hi Burt,

I have not in fact made any "wild accusation" but simply pointed out how the facts as of yesterday were indicative that it is highly probable that you are a shill for MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE... in which regard, let us recap... you join this forum and then immediately make two posts, both within this thread and both vehemently pimping MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE without providing any scientific substantiation; furthermore, you make no other post in any other thread whatsoever at that point in time, and in fact still had not during the three months following... wherein I reiterate that this is highly supicious behaviour that is indicative that you are indeed affiliated somehow with the manufacturer and/or supplier of MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE... Hopefully you will understand how such an inference is quite likely to occur. So, if you are not singularly motivated by some affiliation with MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE you will be posting within other threads wherein the subject is something other than MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE, no? In which case I look forward to reading your future posts in said other threads

With regards to your suggestion regarding MAGNESIUM BICARBONATE, please kindly note that taking sufficiently large doses in order to deliver a useful quantity of MAGNESIUM will disrupt the pH BALANCE of the STOMACH if adminstered regularly and for prolonged periods, wherein it would potentiate and increase risk of developing YEAST OVERGROWTH such as CANDIDA within the GASTROINTESTINAL TRACT and hence IMO is ill advised...

Based upon current scientific substantiation my current recommendation is to stick to a well absorbed form of MAGNESIUM if taken PER ORALLY, such as GLYCINATE, MALATE or CITRATE

[burtshulman]

Wrong again,

In response to Scienceguy's, know it all attitude and cautioning / fault finding on drinking magnesium bicarbonate, with it's alkalizing properties, I present a sampling of the research literature.

(So remember Scienceguy's timely Halloween fear mongering opinions with the boogieman of "YEAST OVERGROWTH" from drinking magnesium bicarbonate water)

The ingestion of water containing bicarbonate is associated with a reduction in BP, reduced incidence of kidney stones, reduced incidence of diabetes, increased bone health and increased exercise performance to name a few. Various minerals are used in these clinical studies (magnesium, potassium, calcium and sodium). However, magnesium bicarbonate has the added benefit of increasing body magnesium.

In no particular order:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22825995
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19954956
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19954569
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19911684
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/14749747
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22941193
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12001016
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11756061

[BarrelBoy]

Wrong again,

In response to Scienceguy's, know it all attitude and cautioning / fault finding on drinking magnesium bicarbonate, with it's alkalizing properties, I present a sampling of the research literature.

(So remember Scienceguy's timely Halloween fear mongering opinions with the boogieman of "YEAST OVERGROWTH" from drinking magnesium bicarbonate water)

The ingestion of water containing bicarbonate is associated with a reduction in BP, reduced incidence of kidney stones, reduced incidence of diabetes, increased bone health and increased exercise performance to name a few. Various minerals are used in these clinical studies (magnesium, potassium, calcium and sodium). However, magnesium bicarbonate has the added benefit of increasing body magnesium.

In no particular order:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22825995
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19954956
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19954569
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19911684
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/14749747
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22941193
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12001016
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11756061

You're an interesting fellow Mr. Burt. Unlike you, ScienceGuy is well respected within this community. Unlike you, ScienceGuy is not being pugnacious. And unlike you, ScienceGuy is evaluating the evidence and arguing therefrom. So please, do not violate any more forum posting guidelines and stick to your arguments/evidence.

Edited by brokenyoga, 30 October 2012 - 01:40 AM.

[DbCooper]

Ive experienced noticeable improvements in memory and cognition, using Magnesium L Threonate vs. soaking in Epsom, does this make me a "shill" for MgT? Ive even looked into trying to see if anybody else would formulate it just to lower the cost per dosage. I would be urging people to get off of 5 hour energy if I had your kind of time, I think any form of Magnesium people take is beneficial, especially when Mg deficiency is so prominent.

Just curious, what evidence would it take for you to question your stance?

[Dissolvedissolve]

I think it's pretty clear that there needs to be evidence showing a dramatic differential in bioavailability (MgT is a very low percentage magnesium) or a dramatic difference in ability to cross the BBB. There could also be trials showing any difference of efficacy in a double-blind human trial.

I have only been following this thread loosely, so correct me if I am wrong, but I believe there isn't even any direct evidence of a difference between MgT and less pricey alternatives in rats.

[ScienceGuy]

Wrong again,

In response to Scienceguy's, know it all attitude and cautioning / fault finding on drinking magnesium bicarbonate, with it's alkalizing properties, I present a sampling of the research literature.

(So remember Scienceguy's timely Halloween fear mongering opinions with the boogieman of "YEAST OVERGROWTH" from drinking magnesium bicarbonate water)

The ingestion of water containing bicarbonate is associated with a reduction in BP, reduced incidence of kidney stones, reduced incidence of diabetes, increased bone health and increased exercise performance to name a few. Various minerals are used in these clinical studies (magnesium, potassium, calcium and sodium). However, magnesium bicarbonate has the added benefit of increasing body magnesium.

In no particular order:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22825995
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19954956
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19954569
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19911684
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/14749747
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22941193
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12001016
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11756061

You're an interesting fellow Mr. Burt. Unlike you, ScienceGuy is well respected within this community. Unlike you, ScienceGuy is not being pugnacious. And unlike you, ScienceGuy is evaluating the evidence and arguing therefrom. So please, do not violate any more forum posting guidelines and stick to your arguments/evidence.

Burt Shulman,

Firstly, I must concur brokenyoga; please kindly note that AD HOMINEM attacks are not tolerated on this forum, so please kindly reserve that sort of behaviour for YOUTUBE. Please kindly keep your posts in line with the guidelines of this forum, and as such please kindly note that intelligent academic debate is welcomed, but ANTAGONISM and TROLLING is not

Secondly, with respect to the academic discussion regarding the benefits and potential pitfalls of SYSTEMIC ALKALIZING:

1) Suffice to say that there are indeed some potential benefits to SYSTEMIC ALKALIZING, but there are also potential hazards of using the PER ORAL ADMINISTRATION route of achieving it, such as disrupting the delicate ACIDIC pH environment of the GASTROINTESTINAL system, and therein increasing risk of YEAST OVERGROWTH and other potentially harmful GI PATHOGENS... I suggest that you might like to read up on the hazards of ANTACIDS OVERUSE, wherein please kindly note that BICARBONATE is a potent ANTACID (and in fact is the PRIMARY INGREDIENT in most OTC ANTACIDS)

2) Whilst interesting, the subject of SYSTEMIC ALKALIZING is venturing very much OFF TOPIC when it comes to the specific subject of this particular thread, and hence might I kindly recommend that you begin a new thread if you wish to discuss this subject further, as opposed to derailing this thread?

[ScienceGuy]

I think it's pretty clear that there needs to be evidence showing a dramatic differential in bioavailability (MgT is a very low percentage magnesium) or a dramatic difference in ability to cross the BBB. There could also be trials showing any difference of efficacy in a double-blind human trial.

I have only been following this thread loosely, so correct me if I am wrong, but I believe there isn't even any direct evidence of a difference between MgT and less pricey alternatives in rats.

You are correct that the whole point of this thread is that there currently quite simply does not exist conclusive substantiated scientific evidence to support the claims being made in the marketing spiel for MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE; and as such more research is needed before we can know for sure whether MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE genuinely lives up to the claims or is mere snake oil

My recommendation is that everyone take the same stance that I have, which is to reserve judgement until after publication of the results of the HUMAN STUDY that is in process of being completed on what are the effects of MAGNESIUM L-THREONATE in HUMANS

Edited by ScienceGuy, 30 October 2012 - 05:46 AM.

[Raza]

So did anyone here try both and notice a difference?

Sometimes, taking a hint of evidence or a few anecdotes and experimenting on yourself means losing a few bucks; sometimes it means beating solid scientific evidence to something awesome by a few years, or even putting essential weight behind the scientific/commercial interest needed for it to get properly discovered at all.

I guess an ongoing human study might be worth waiting for, though.

Edited by Raza, 30 October 2012 - 09:26 AM.

[burtshulman]

Hi all,

You are right, I don't belong in a group like this.

Burt Shulman
845 298 4229

Edited by burtshulman, 30 October 2012 - 11:10 PM.

[xEva]

I personally found that magnesium chloride was what agreed with me the most. I cannot quantify the very subjective and subtle feeling. The supplement I tried was in liquid form and it was greatly overpriced IMO. I am looking for a dry powder form of MgCl2.

If you know a good source of Mg chloride please let me know. Thanks.

[Lufega]

I vote to have this thread closed down. This thread was not written to prove anything. This is a witch hunt. It's the opinion of OP or you're burned at the stake. If you say anything that contradicts science guy, he calls it propaganda and goes on to insult you. Albeit in the nicest way possible. These type of posts really does a lot of harm to the credibility of this forum and its users. I'm surprised it went on this long.

[protoject]

LOL! ... tis a strange thread indeed... don't be scared away Burt Shulman, Scienceguy is just one man and not a god, no need to shy away... i did get a sense of him going overboard but at the same time I think its just an opinion and people are allowed to express their opinions.. I think I can see where he is coming from though I am not sure burt shullman is a shill or not, i do find there is a bit of odd behavior, I just dont see personally why someone would shill for mag threonate unless they were bolstering a specific supplier... I dont know where Mag Threonate comes from but it must not all come from one supplier ????

[Ames]

I vote to have this thread closed down. This thread was not written to prove anything. This is a witch hunt. It's the opinion of OP or you're burned at the stake. If you say anything that contradicts science guy, he calls it propaganda and goes on to insult you. Albeit in the nicest way possible. These type of posts really does a lot of harm to the credibility of this forum and its users. I'm surprised it went on this long.

I agree that this entire thread, as officiated by scienceguy, has a strange vibe. Perhaps it's the record setting over-use of emoticons. None of us here are children and we don't need to be electronically smiled at after every-single-sentence. It's weird. I didn't think that social awkwardness could be effectively communicated via an electronic discussion, and yet here we are.

Also, I think he doth-protest-too-much. It's one thing to state an opinion and the facts that support it. It's another to aspire to control the conversation. Point stated, we hear you loud and clear, and now I recommend that you let the conversation go where it may.