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Piracetam - How to get all the benefits from it

piracetam nootropics non-responders oxiracetam aniracetam noopept memory cognition learning choline

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#151 nezxon

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 07:45 PM

Would it not be better to start at a half dosage of 4.8g, and go from there insted of hitting 4.8, maybe you respond as well on only the half dosage, everyone has their own sweet spot, then again I weigh in at 95kg.

The studies I've read indicate titrating up does avoid side effects. In one specific study, all the the subjects who titrated experienced no side effects while those who began with the higher dose (I think it was approximately 9.6g) about 1/3rd of them had stomach ache, cramping, diarrhea, headache, and/or excessive daytime sleepiness. I think it helps to begin with 800 mg and increase by 800 mg every other day until the desired dose is reached. I think a good deal of the side effects or negative experiences people report are due to starting too high. I think a gradual approach might yield much better results with fewer or no side effects rather than trying to attack/load to achieve fast results.
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#152 DoomAndGloom

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 07:58 PM

The top 5 nootropics in my opinion are:
Noopept
Piracetam
Aniracetam
Oxiracetam
Modafinil


Is that list in any particular order? As in you might recommend Noopept over Piracetam?

Edited by DoomAndGloom, 23 February 2012 - 08:05 PM.


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#153 Hyperspace21

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:03 PM

The top 5 nootropics in my opinion are:
Noopept
Piracetam
Aniracetam
Oxiracetam
Modafinil


Is that list in any particular order? As in you might recommend Noopept over Piracetam?


no particular order, they all have their pros and cons, You should choose Noopept if you don't like taking 'large' quantities of bitter chemicals. It's the second most cheapest nootropic, (piracteam comes first).

#154 DoomAndGloom

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:06 PM

What dosage would you suggest for noopept? I noticed that Cerebral Health has 10 grams for 50 dollars, but it has 100 grams of piracetam for 10 dollars. It costs 50x the price, but isn't it supposed to be 'up to 1000x' stronger?

Edited by DoomAndGloom, 23 February 2012 - 08:07 PM.


#155 Hyperspace21

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 08:30 PM

What dosage would you suggest for noopept? I noticed that Cerebral Health has 10 grams for 50 dollars, but it has 100 grams of piracetam for 10 dollars. It costs 50x the price, but isn't it supposed to be 'up to 1000x' stronger?


regular dosage is around 10mg - 50 mg so it should last for about 1000 doses - 200 doses respectively.
considering that you take 10mg twice a day then it'll last you 500 days
and if you take 50mg then it'll last you 100 days

#156 ephraim

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 08:33 AM

Some times i get tired when i take piracetam and my eyes start to get foggy.
do i need calcium?

#157 Hyperspace21

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 08:42 AM

Some times i get tired when i take piracetam and my eyes start to get foggy.
do i need calcium?


Yes you need calcium and glutamate/glutamic acid. One of my colleagues had the same problem, but that was due to pircaetam enhancing the adverse effects of sleep deprivation (he wasn't getting enough sleep).

#158 Tomas E

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 08:47 AM

Would it not be better to start at a half dosage of 4.8g, and go from there insted of hitting 4.8, maybe you respond as well on only the half dosage, everyone has their own sweet spot, then again I weigh in at 95kg.

The studies I've read indicate titrating up does avoid side effects. In one specific study, all the the subjects who titrated experienced no side effects while those who began with the higher dose (I think it was approximately 9.6g) about 1/3rd of them had stomach ache, cramping, diarrhea, headache, and/or excessive daytime sleepiness. I think it helps to begin with 800 mg and increase by 800 mg every other day until the desired dose is reached. I think a good deal of the side effects or negative experiences people report are due to starting too high. I think a gradual approach might yield much better results with fewer or no side effects rather than trying to attack/load to achieve fast results.



Ill start with 1gram of piracetam and 100mg of cdp-choline and go from there, how long does it take for Piracetam to take effect, 1 hour ?

#159 Hyperspace21

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 09:03 AM

Would it not be better to start at a half dosage of 4.8g, and go from there insted of hitting 4.8, maybe you respond as well on only the half dosage, everyone has their own sweet spot, then again I weigh in at 95kg.

The studies I've read indicate titrating up does avoid side effects. In one specific study, all the the subjects who titrated experienced no side effects while those who began with the higher dose (I think it was approximately 9.6g) about 1/3rd of them had stomach ache, cramping, diarrhea, headache, and/or excessive daytime sleepiness. I think it helps to begin with 800 mg and increase by 800 mg every other day until the desired dose is reached. I think a good deal of the side effects or negative experiences people report are due to starting too high. I think a gradual approach might yield much better results with fewer or no side effects rather than trying to attack/load to achieve fast results.



Ill start with 1gram of piracetam and 100mg of cdp-choline and go from there, how long does it take for Piracetam to take effect, 1 hour ?


That's a good strategy. It takes about 1 hour for piracetam to take effect on an empty stomach. 1.5 hours if you eat something.

#160 ephraim

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 09:20 AM

When i first started taking piracetam at 7g, i got good results, it gave me alot of energy .
but after a few day it would make me tired. even when i lower the dose to 2g, it would make me sleepy or do nothing.

I eat a lot of meat so i should get calcium.

#161 Hyperspace21

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:32 PM

When i first started taking piracetam at 7g, i got good results, it gave me alot of energy .
but after a few day it would make me tired. even when i lower the dose to 2g, it would make me sleepy or do nothing.

I eat a lot of meat so i should get calcium.


Actually you are getting glutamic acid and choline from the meat. It takes about 4-6 hours for the glutamic acid to reach your brain from ingested foods.

Try drinking piracetam with milk or supplement with calcium tablets. :)

#162 manic_racetam

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 03:49 PM

Thank you so much for answering all my questions
Where does SULBUTIAMINE fits in your list...its pretty recent , does any one have tried it?


Hi, welcome to the forum. Most of the basic dosage questions for almost every common nootropic are listed in the Nootropic Thread Index, pinned on the first page of "Brain Health".

Try to look through that thread before asking new questions, and please keep conversations related to the topic at hand. For example, Sulbutiamine dosage doesn't have much to do with "Piracetam - How to get all the benefits from it."

#163 ScienceGuy

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 09:07 PM

I have a question... I've been dosing low dose (50-100mg) glutamate and it seems to give me a little anxiety

Is this typical. I know in phenibut withdrawal there is supposedly excessive glutamate and dopamine so I'm wondering if its the same thing as dosing too much glutamic acid.


Are you taking MONOSODIUM L-GLUTAMATE (MSG) or FREE FORM L-GLUTAMIC ACID? :)

Edited by ScienceGuy, 26 February 2012 - 09:07 PM.


#164 Introspecta

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 09:29 PM

free form L-glutamic acid. Its pill of 500 and I have to break it in chunks and usually take the smallest chunk.

#165 ScienceGuy

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 09:04 AM

free form L-glutamic acid. Its pill of 500 and I have to break it in chunks and usually take the smallest chunk.


There are two possibilities; firstly, it could be that you are simply taking too high a dosage, in that the recommended starting dose would be 1/50th of one of your 500mg pills, which IMO would be practically impossible to eyeball, and hence inaccurate dosing could be your problem; and secondly, it could be that in the event that 10mg causes you to experience SIDE EFFECTS then you should simply NOT take any, as you either are already obtaining enough through dietary sources or you are sensitive to any dosage of supplemental L-GLUTAMIC ACID :)

My advice would be to purchase a cheap set of digital scales with 0.001g accuracy and accurately weigh out more more than 1/50th of a tablet (crush it first to facilitate this) and take that to see how you respond ;)

EDIT: Hyperspace has been shown to be a fraud which would indicate that his study is also fake; as such I recommend that everyone completely ignore all information contained within all Hyperspace's study reports and posts, and do NOT take any additional L-GLUTAMIC ACID or GLUTAMATE. The dosage L-GLUTAMIC ACID / GLUTAMATE recommended by Hyperspace was 10 - 100mg; and whilst this would not in any regard likely to be harmful to one's health, L-GLUTAMIC ACID and GLUTAMATE are EXCITOTOXINS and hence supplementing with them is NOT recommended.

Edited by ScienceGuy, 17 March 2012 - 02:01 PM.


#166 scouser

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 12:15 PM

I take 3g of choline bitartrate 3x a day and I have no side effects so far. However I notice I am lacking calcium in my diet, I will supplement calcium tabs and glutamine and report back.


That is an excessive amount of CHOLINE, and unecessary for ensuring that PIRACETAM works properly. The vast majority of individuals taking that dosage of CHOLINE would experience SIDE EFFECTS; if you don't, then you are very lucky :)

However, you should consider significantly reducing your CHOLINE dosage to the minimum dosage that prevents PIRACETAM induced CHOLINE DEIFICENCY SYMPTOMS from occurring IF or WHEN you start to notice that you start to experience any of the following EXCESS CHOLINE related SIDE EFFECTS:

DEPRESSION, NAUSEA, HEADACHE, STOMACH UPSET, DIARRHEA, FISHY BODY ODOUR, INCREASED BODY TEMPERATURE, INSOMNIA, SLEEP DISTURBANCES, GASTROINTESTINAL DISTURBANCES.


I will reduce the choline to only 1g a day from now on. What's the worst that could happen. I also started mixing piracetam with milk... It is vile tasting.

I do want to share my experience yesterday though. I took HyperSpaces advice and supplemented 1,200mg of calcium and around 1.5g of L-Glutamine(Post workout drink I had mixed with a few other BCAA's) and 3g of piracetam. As I was driving my ears started to itch a little, music and noises became more prominent. I can't tell whether it was one of the BCAA's or the calcium supplement, but I definetly noticed that first time buzz with piracetam as well.

P.S. Did any of your subject notice any significant decrease in being able to feel pain? My chronic back and shoulder pain are gone and when I banged my shin against a pipe, it was only mildly discomfort.

Keep up the good work guys!


With regards the reduced sesitivity to pain.. I have been taking a stack that includes 30gm of Piracetam per day. I noticed that my long occuring problems with a tendon in my ankle have much improved... I was taking regular doses of MSM to aid this, but I have found myself not having to... I did wonder about the Piracetam effect and had noted it in my spreadsheet to ask about this later on.. Interesting

#167 Justchill

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 03:44 PM

I'm also a piracetam user. I've noticed I got brain fog after supplementing choline: choline citrate, alcar, eating everyday eggs. Very strange.. this + piracetam makes my brain "fry"... inability to concentrate, to focus, some anxiety...

Piracetam is for me one of the best noots.

#168 Hyperspace21

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 03:50 PM

I'm also a piracetam user. I've noticed I got brain fog after supplementing choline: choline citrate, alcar, eating everyday eggs. Very strange.. this + piracetam makes my brain "fry"... inability to concentrate, to focus, some anxiety...

Piracetam is for me one of the best noots.


It could be because, you are getting way too much choline. If you could mention your doses then that would be pretty helpful.

#169 ScienceGuy

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 04:01 PM

I'm also a piracetam user. I've noticed I got brain fog after supplementing choline: choline citrate, alcar, eating everyday eggs. Very strange.. this + piracetam makes my brain "fry"... inability to concentrate, to focus, some anxiety...

Piracetam is for me one of the best noots.


It could be because, you are getting way too much choline. If you could mention your doses then that would be pretty helpful.


By FAR the most common mistake that is made with regards to taking PIRACETAM is taking too little PIRACETAM and/or too much CHOLINE ;)

#170 Timothy

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:52 PM

Hi,

Firstly, thanks for this thread. Its really been one of the most progressive set of posts I've read. Thanks for the research and the effort.

Minor scraps in the middle of the discussion... no need to get personal... but in any tinkering with chemicals in my brain, I do expect the discussion of proof/method/etc. Anyway,... Considering the simplicity of the proposed solution, it is very easy to test. I have one really important question w.r.t the point that got my attention in the first posts.

Certain aspects of this seem to strongly correlate and explain my experiences over the last 3 weeks but there are possible other logical explanations so excuse my information dump. You can stop reading after the question.


My Question:

Is "enhanced vision" always experienced with positive/perfect usage of piracetam?


Recent Background:

In the last few weeks my piracetam usage has had a greater than usual effect.

There are only four recent changes to my stack and cycle:

1. I took a 7 week absence of piracetam until 2 weeks ago.
2. I have increased my dosage from average of 2.4mg to 4.8mg (peak 6.4mg)
3. I drank 12 litres of milk over a 2 week period. (Very unlike me - root cause: a lack of berry juice in the fridge and 2 seasons of dollhouse.).
4. Milk thistle (Started this after a friend got liver damage. My guilt about my abuse of my liver in my 20s inspired me to use this for a few months. Some milk thistle articles indicated that some people take this supplement to recover from liver damage caused by certain medicines that increase load on liver and unnecessarily damage your liver. This has had a very very positive effect on me.


There is one recent negative symptom (3 weeks on & off):

5. Cant sleep until late night/early morning.


Question Background:

In my very first two days of piracetam usage (5-6 years ago) I experienced the "enhanced vision" in a vividness that could only be explained to someone else as the movie "speed racer". I believe this was more noticeable because of my 60% green colour blindness but i have never experienced this again since those first few days. Even after (1) extended absence of piracetam, and (2) various experimentation of mega dosages.

Considering my history/background, I can easily rule out #1 and #2 above because of extensive usages and combinations of wide ranges of choline sources, alcar, dmae, etc. In actual fact, I have removed and reduced all other choline sources to just piracetam, fish oil, and cdp choline. Considering my knowledge of previous experiences, my current stack does not result in me seeing the types of benefits I am experiencing today leaving only #3 as a possible interaction - which I would never have even considered had it not been for this thread.

I have not had enhanced vision recently however my question alludes to it being the possibility for me to benchmark the effectiveness of my piracetam usage.

I would absolutely love the "speed racer" enhanced vision. For me, being partially green colour blind, this was quite an amazing experience.

The only other combination that had as noticeable/similar effect as what I have had in the last 2 weeks is Bacopa - after 4 days - which did wonders for learning mandarin (needed for contract negotiation). I stopped using Bacopa when I stopped studying mandarin but will use it for any language study.

In general, I use the minimum dosage of all supplements possible and I focus on the life extension properties of low dosage piracetam more than the creative aspect, unless I am painting, studying, etc.

In general, I stay away from excessive calcium usage due to apparent correlation between calcium, cholesteral and heart attacks. Do the search on google and see what comes up... http://www.google.co...um+heart+attack



Symptom Issue:

I am associating sleep issue with either (a) magnesium deficiency - really just an excuse to try MgT, or (b) Longvida curcumin usage - doesnt quite add up but I experienced this once before, directly after curcumin usage. I should get some blood work done to check my levels (never had this done before other than cholesteral and red blood count (mountaineering)).




My background:

I am a long time user of piracetam 5 to 6 years. Only ever tried piracetam out of the racetams. My average dose (until recently) has been 2.4g mainly looking at the health benefits of piracetam with various spikes up to 3.8g, and larger doses but not more than 6.4g. Recently, I have been pushing at least 4.8mg, and more, due to my reading some article on 100mg/kg. I weigh 95kg and have therefore increased my dosage.

In my starting years I experienced brain fog and drowsy feelings. I attributed the drowsy feeling to choline source and brain fog to adrenal issues. I've never been convinced of the "adrenal" argument some forums to brain fog however I started supplementing with Siberian Ginseng which removed brain fog issues (never had it since) (i did reduce my dosage - in general - but did typically go to 4.8-5g in various timeperiods). I don't get the drowsy feeling in the morning anymore - i drink 2 cups of (typically instant) coffee before work in the morning (probably a bad habit but coffee has some benefits).

I am 60% green colour blind. I cannot distinguish certain shades of R/G lights. Certain shades of green look more brownish in comparison to red but in general I can still tell Green from Red/Blue. I first noticed this when I was 14 - I couldnt tell the teams apart during lazer games (haha) - but recent tests (just for kicks) quantified it as 60% green.

I initially found nootropics (piracetam) due to some minor incident at work (stroke, clot, I dont know what it was) resulting in head pains. My doc prescribed vitamin B... I was not impressed by the solution as it did nothing... Piracetam sorted that problem out and returned me to a better than state then I could imagine. My cholesterol, stress and allergies were all quite bad in that time-frame. Coupled with DnB I was back to my teens w.r.t everything.

DnB level = 7, pushing towards DnB 8.

In my first two days of piracetam usage I experienced the "enhanced vision" in a vividness that I can only explain to another as the vividness in the movie "speed racer".

I box an average of twice a week for a year, at night, and supplement with whey shake and L-glutamine. A scoop of whey in the morning with cereal & fruit.

Always suspect I am historically magnesium deficient due to drinking once or twice a week. This could be guilt and I should do blood tests to obtain the data. (More of an excuse for Magnesium L-Threonate in the absence of sufficient research).

Even one beer can set me back from my mental goals. I don't think I can get away without at least 1-3 beers/glasses/bottles of wine on a friday but I do know that the rewards are worth it.


My Stack:

Just for interest - quite a simple stack after a whole range of combinations. Simpler is better.

Morning Stack: Coffee , Piracetam (4-6g), CDP Choline (500mg or less)..... cerial+whey+omega 3 fish oil (3-4g).
Post Work Stack (7pm): Milk thistle (.5-1g)
Sleep Stack: Longvida Curcumin (5.5g) (only typically 1g and recently (last 5 days) moved to 5.5g, at night, before sleep, due to certain studies)

Edited by Timothy, 27 February 2012 - 08:05 PM.

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#171 BrainFrost

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 11:27 PM

Back on topic...

The Glutamic Acid arrived today. I tried my first dose 200mg-300mg(est.) of Glutamic Acid with 5g of piracetam and 1200mg of calcium. I forgot I had a meeting prior to taking it so it was a good way to see if anything changed.

Postive side effect:
-I seem to be more focused and my mind is quieter. There appears to be a buzzed feeling around my occipital and parietal lobe, similar to the effect that piracetam gave me the first time around.
-Music sounds amazing.
-Vision remains similar or maybe a little better. No enhanced contrast that I can see.
-I got a little annoyed at some of the silly things that were being talked about, the discussion was pretty much going in circles. I was direct and to the point which kind of bothered some I guess.

Negative side effect:
-Yeah... taking 200-300mg is probably not the best idea. I felt a burning sensation in my stomach.

Overall, I like it. It's definetly doing something for me. Focus and clarity have improved. One thing I was lacking previously with piracetam was drive, this seems to be the key missing ingredient.

Edited by manic_racetam, 01 March 2012 - 05:17 AM.


#172 Elus

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 03:01 AM

In one serving, my whey protein contains 3.24g of glutamine + glutamic acid. I guess this means I don't need to supplement it on the side, so calcium and alpha GPC should be sufficient?
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#173 health_nutty

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 04:28 AM

I'm getting fantastic results from Piracetam WITH 125mg l-glutamic acid. Previously even 400mg of Piracetam would cause irritiblity. Now, I get no irritability even at doses up to 4.8g.

#174 Gamerzneed

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 05:46 AM

anyone here compare results using glutamine vs glutamic acid

#175 health_nutty

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 04:36 PM

anyone here compare results using glutamine vs glutamic acid


Yes, l-glutamine did not take away the irritibility, only l-glutamic acid

#176 ScienceGuy

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 05:02 PM

anyone here compare results using glutamine vs glutamic acid


Yes, l-glutamine did not take away the irritibility, only l-glutamic acid


Interesting... :) and not surprising ;)

Edited by ScienceGuy, 28 February 2012 - 05:02 PM.


#177 hippocampus

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 05:35 PM

If glutamic acid is usually abundant in food (and this can be measured in grams) - how does few hundred mg makes such a great difference? Would eating food high in glutamic acid be equally ok (in terms of enhacing piracetam effect)?

#178 ScienceGuy

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 05:39 PM

If glutamic acid is usually abundant in food (and this can be measured in grams) - how does few hundred mg makes such a great difference? Would eating food high in glutamic acid be equally ok (in terms of enhacing piracetam effect)?


In short, it is because FREE FORM L-GLUTAMIC ACID has different PHYSIOLOGICAL EFFECTS than PROTEIN which comprises COMPLEX AMINO ACID CHAINS with some L-GLUTAMIC ACID bound within them :)

It is akin to the fact that HYDROGEN GAS mixed with OXYGEN GAS, is NOT the same as WATER (H2O) ;)

Edited by ScienceGuy, 28 February 2012 - 05:40 PM.

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#179 Tomas E

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:21 PM

Ive been on piracetam for 5 days now, tried basically everything that has been provided here except for the Glutamic acid, Would this work ??

http://www.vpxsports...lutamine-powder or is this the wrong form, thanks.

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#180 Hyperspace21

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:24 PM

Ive been on piracetam for 5 days now, tried basically everything that has been provided here except for the Glutamic acid, Would this work ??

http://www.vpxsports...lutamine-powder or is this the wrong form, thanks.


It's the wrong form. It's highly unlikely that glutamine will work. You should look for Glutamic Acid or L-Glutamate





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: piracetam, nootropics, non-responders, oxiracetam, aniracetam, noopept, memory, cognition, learning, choline

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