469 replies to this topic

[NootNewb]

Mostly a lurker here, but this thread caught my interest mainly because of the number of posts and some of the actual science coming from Scienceguy and Hyperspace21.

I've been using piracetam with several other noots for just under five months. I will say I have felt some of piracetam's more subtle effects, but I'm a skeptic by nature so I'm hoping some of the more informed people would help or give more insight on my experiences.

I won't deny that piracetam's vision enhancing effects work. Hell, it happened today in class (I believe) when my vision suddenly got "crisper" and "brighter." The only problem was that this quick "buzz" or feeling of "euphoria" last approximately seven seconds.

I will admit that piracetam did increase my vocabulary and speech fluency. Before I would fall into the same speaking behavior like many people using "like" and "umm" inbetween thoughts. That was significantly reduced.

This thread brought up some interesting things about piracetam and the best way to maximize its effects. My previous routine was
2-3g x 2 Piracetam/day
1g x 2 Choline source/day (Went from Alpha GPC to CDP Choline and now currently using Choline Bitartrate)
Misc. noots

It was interesting to see that piracetam required more than choline to achieve the full effect. Now, my questions and comments are
1. I do drink a glass of milk every night before bedtime, along with eating chicken, beef, peanuts, etc. throughout the day. Would this be adequate enough for the required glutamate or should I actually start investing in L-glutamate?

2. Does the quality of the piracetam matter? I am currently using the bulk SNS brand piracetam. The reason for this is because of the cheaper price. Would it be better to invest in a better brand? If so, what's a good (but cheap) recommendation?

3. I am considering adding aniracetam for its supposedly anxiolytic effects (I feel like I have weak social skills due to anxiety, and I feel piracetam did help alleviate much of my anxiety when I started using it). Would piracetam affect its efficacy?

Oh, and don't let the haters affect you, Hyperspace. The world is inherently skeptic and it's always easier to shoot someone down than to open up and trust.

[Gamerzneed]

anyone here compare results using glutamine vs glutamic acid

Yes, l-glutamine did not take away the irritibility, only l-glutamic acid

I used 5g of glutamine powder with no significant effects on the efficiency of piracetam, I'll look into glutamic acid and see if there'll be a noticable change.

[Tomas E]

anyone here compare results using glutamine vs glutamic acid

Yes, l-glutamine did not take away the irritibility, only l-glutamic acid

I used 5g of glutamine powder with no significant effects on the efficiency of piracetam, I'll look into glutamic acid and see if there'll be a noticable change.

Keep us updated , as glutamine is the last thing i havent tried out yet.

[Justchill]

I'm also a piracetam user. I've noticed I got brain fog after supplementing choline: choline citrate, alcar, eating everyday eggs. Very strange.. this + piracetam makes my brain "fry"... inability to concentrate, to focus, some anxiety...

Piracetam is for me one of the best noots.

It could be because, you are getting way too much choline. If you could mention your doses then that would be pretty helpful.

By FAR the most common mistake that is made with regards to taking PIRACETAM is taking too little PIRACETAM and/or too much CHOLINE

Well 1,5 week of eating an egg everyday = about 150mg choline / day gave me these effects.
Seems I am supersensitive to choline, I'm not taking it anymore.

[health_nutty]

Is there really no other, as the price is 18$ and I end up with a total in 61$ shipping this to me ........ ??

Solgar makes a bottle of 100 500mg pills for $8. I quarter the pills, so one bottle will last over a year.

http://www.vitaminsh....jsp?id=SL-1166

[Tomas E]

Is there really no other, as the price is 18$ and I end up with a total in 61$ shipping this to me ........ ??

Solgar makes a bottle of 100 500mg pills for $8. I quarter the pills, so one bottle will last over a year.

http://www.vitaminsh....jsp?id=SL-1166

I ended up at $50.14 ...... this is killing me

Edited by Tomas E, 29 February 2012 - 05:30 PM.

[Timothy]

Hi,

Does anyone know if L-Theanine is sufficient as a Glutamic acid replacement since it is a Glutamic acid analogue?

It seems quite difficult to find L-Glutamate or Glutamic acid where I am based.

-Timothy

[Hyperspace21]

Hi,

Does anyone know if L-Theanine is sufficient as a Glutamic acid replacement since it is a Glutamic acid analogue?

It seems quite difficult to find L-Glutamate or Glutamic acid where I am based.

-Timothy

It should work well. Can't guarantee it since we haven't done any tests on it. It's present in green tea in minute amounts.

[Ampa-omega]

hi guys quick question, is there any basis to this: regarding that: glutamic acid doesn't really cross the blood brain barrier , or rather (i dont remember exactly but i heard mention on a thread) that it isn't effective in increasing glutamate concentrations in the brain. wish i could find the thread..

if your blood brain barrier is fine there shouldn't be much problems, glutamate does not pass blood brain barrier freely, there are also uptake pumps in neurons and glia meant to control extrecellular glutamate, and outbound glutamate transport much faster than the glutamate uptake in the bbb. http://jn.nutrition....ull/130/4/1016S It is much different that direct administration of glutamate to neural tissue, and a different issue is if for some reasson your neurons decide that they must release a shitload of glutamate in the synaptic cleft(however that can happen quite independently of dietary glutamate). Also as it has already been pointed out glutamate is needed, it is not evil, and indeed the optimal thing is having it just a hair below neurotoxicity as that would be the maximum ltp possible.

not the same thread but close.

Edited by Ampa-omega, 01 March 2012 - 03:24 AM.

[BrainFrost]

Back on topic... again:

After feeling a little unwell taking 300mg of Glutamic Acid, I decided to split it up to 100mg x2 a day. After my second dose of 100mg that day, I suddenly got the flu. I been a little unwell lately, but it really got a hold of me that night. It may have just been a random coincidence, but it's something to keep in mind. I may need to lower my dosage to below 100mg a day. I have suspended from taking it until the flu passes.

Edit: Glutamic Acid is worth less than $8 for 150g. It would last you a lifetime, I don't see how anyone can be making money off of it.

Edited by BrainFrost, 01 March 2012 - 05:47 PM.

[randy909]

It was interesting to see that piracetam required more than choline to achieve the full effect. Now, my questions and comments are
1. I do drink a glass of milk every night before bedtime, along with eating chicken, beef, peanuts, etc. throughout the day. Would this be adequate enough for the required glutamate or should I actually start investing in L-glutamate?

2. Does the quality of the piracetam matter? I am currently using the bulk SNS brand piracetam. The reason for this is because of the cheaper price. Would it be better to invest in a better brand? If so, what's a good (but cheap) recommendation?

3. I am considering adding aniracetam for its supposedly anxiolytic effects (I feel like I have weak social skills due to anxiety, and I feel piracetam did help alleviate much of my anxiety when I started using it). Would piracetam affect its efficacy?

Oh, and don't let the haters affect you, Hyperspace. The world is inherently skeptic and it's always easier to shoot someone down than to open up and trust.

1. Who knows what affect adding glutamic acid will have on you. You can wait and see more peoples reports or you can try it and report your results here. Some others might try to guess but the truth is no one knows.

2. I can't comment as I have only tried a few different brands but never back-to-back to fairly compare them. I would still say the same as #1 though, no one knows for sure. You'll have to try a different brand if you want the answer for you.

3. I've read several times that they have different effects and don't "cancel" each other. Never tried Ani myself. Again, try it and find out. Or search more, there are tons of topics here that talk about ani/pir stacking. This isn't really on topic in this thread anyway.

Remember, I'm no doctor, just some dude who reads about noots and has tried a few.

You may have had more luck getting a response with a shorter, more targeted post fwiw.

edit: typo

Edited by randy909, 01 March 2012 - 10:43 PM.

[spartan86]

That was one hell of an answer, thanks. I'm fine on a diet/exercise side of things, but my knowledge in medicine/neuroscience is quite poor. I should read a few books, because Wiki/Goggle research are clearly not enough. I'll follow this thread for the drama. It'll be interesting to see if we have some conclusion.
Have a nice day/night people!

Moderator Message: "Lot's of edit's going on in this thread but rest assured nothing pertaining to the thread or topic is being deleted or altered and original posts are never changed except to remove suspicious product placement - manic_racetam"

Edited by manic_racetam, 07 March 2012 - 05:31 AM.

[Introspecta]

Yeah you'd probably just have to consume about 4 gallons of water with the Piracetam. I still remember my first high dose piracetam. It was unbelievable. That combined with a Redbull and some L-theanine I had one of the best dates out with my girl in a long time. Those days are long gone. I was hoping Hyperspaces studies would bring that back but unfortunately it didn't reduce tolerance. I think the only thing that would, would be a year break and even then my tolerance might not go down as much

[hooter]

Have you tried sublingual B Complex and fish oil with your piracetam?

From experience, and to some degree with scientific backing, I think that the following make piracetam work better:

Dissolving it in water.
The right dose of calcium and Vitamin D to help absorb it.
Vitamin B Complex
Fish Oil (2-4g)
Melatonin before bed
A diet high in saturated fats
Endurance Exercise and Meditation

Edited by hooter, 02 March 2012 - 06:17 PM.

[Hyperspace21]

Yeah you'd probably just have to consume about 4 gallons of water with the Piracetam. I still remember my first high dose piracetam. It was unbelievable. That combined with a Redbull and some L-theanine I had one of the best dates out with my girl in a long time. Those days are long gone. I was hoping Hyperspaces studies would bring that back but unfortunately it didn't reduce tolerance. I think the only thing that would, would be a year break and even then my tolerance might not go down as much

Have you tried magnesium?

[Introspecta]

My calcium has magnesium in it and i've used magnesium in the past and didn't notice anything

[randy909]

Joelski28, Can you please summarize your experience trying the glutamic acid and calcium with piracetam? Sounds like it didn't make a difference for you. But then it also sounds like you were already using piracetam with a reasonable response yes (understanding that you tolerance is high)?

[truboy]

Yeah you'd probably just have to consume about 4 gallons of water with the Piracetam. I still remember my first high dose piracetam. It was unbelievable. That combined with a Redbull and some L-theanine I had one of the best dates out with my girl in a long time. Those days are long gone. I was hoping Hyperspaces studies would bring that back but unfortunately it didn't reduce tolerance. I think the only thing that would, would be a year break and even then my tolerance might not go down as much

pretty interesting. Piracetam had different effect on me depending what i take it with.
I remember taking Piracetam + L_theanine for dates. Was great time.
Can't get same effect anymore. Lately if i add L_theanine to Piracetam i become anxious...

Edited by truboy, 02 March 2012 - 10:56 PM.

[BrainFrost]

There is definitely a tolerance build up with piracetam. I do not have the same control over my emotions as I once did when I started it. I am resorting back to my normal somewhat stressed self, even though I have no stress in my life(I am on spring break).

The Glutamic Acid definitely does something with piracetam, but unfortunately my auditory and visual senses remain the same.

[jts234]

My calcium has magnesium in it and i've used magnesium in the past and didn't notice anything

Calcium and magnesium compete for absorption in the GI tract. Try looking into a supplement like ZMA or a higher quality magnesium supplement that doesn't contain calcium.

[Introspecta]

OH they do. Thats pretty dumb that they put them together if they compete for absorbtion. That does make sense because I do notice that when I take magnesium alone I can feel a difference and with the combo I can't notice anything.

[owtsgmi]

OH they do. Thats pretty dumb that they put them together if they compete for absorbtion. That does make sense because I do notice that when I take magnesium alone I can feel a difference and with the combo I can't notice anything.

I've tried a bunch of supps with piracetam and finally came to a mix that minimizes a) brain fog on one extreme, and b) headaches, agitation, hyperfocus on the other. I did a bunch of copious reading on this forum and others, experimentation on doses, stopping/starting supps (including Pyroglutamic acid), etc and came to what for me is a stable (but not perfect) piracetam regiman which is the following:

(in order of perceived importance to keeping PIRACETAM effective):

Piracetam
Magnesium Citrate
Liquid B-12 solution
ALCAR
L-Glutamine
L-Theanine
Eleuthero liquid
C multi-vitamin packet
Rhodiola liquid (may just help depressive symptoms)
LPA (late but welcome addition - may just help depressive symptoms)


My goal here is to make piracetam a stable member of my supplementation regimen (with predictable daily dosages) and allow me to move on and it does that.

Edited by owtsgmi, 06 March 2012 - 07:52 AM.

[Introspecta]

Def would rather not have to spend 309493 dollars to make Piracetam Stable.

[SuperjackDid_]

For the sake of thread cogency lets stop everything not related to the topic. The topic is in relation to the effects of calcium and glutamate on piracetam efficacy... basically anyway.

All sides of the argument regarding the OP's credentials have been stated many times over, so lets stop beating that dying horse... for now at least.

Hyperspace21 gave me an email address of a professor. I'm going to check up on it when I get a chance, hopefully in a day or two, and will report back my findings. Until then lets stay on topic.

Give us some update.

[owtsgmi]

Def would rather not have to spend 309493 dollars to make Piracetam Stable.

HaHa...that just works for my brain, dude. You may get by with one or two....and some of them are very cheap!

Edited by owtsgmi, 06 March 2012 - 09:28 PM.

[jts234]

Have you tried sublingual B Complex and fish oil with your piracetam?

From experience, and to some degree with scientific backing, I think that the following make piracetam work better:

Dissolving it in water.
The right dose of calcium and Vitamin D to help absorb it.
Vitamin B Complex
Fish Oil (2-4g)
Melatonin before bed
A diet high in saturated fats
Endurance Exercise and Meditation

Regardless of whether you take piracetam or not, I support all of those recommendations :-)

[Orajel]

This post is absolutely stellar. Thanks for the info!

Interesting point regarding glutamic acid. I like to eat oatmeal for breakfast, an excellent source of glutamic acid, and always notice a stronger effect from piracetam when i do. It could be a morning thing also...

Edited by Orajel, 07 March 2012 - 05:42 AM.

[manic_racetam]

For the sake of thread cogency lets stop everything not related to the topic. The topic is in relation to the effects of calcium and glutamate on piracetam efficacy... basically anyway.

All sides of the argument regarding the OP's credentials have been stated many times over, so lets stop beating that dying horse... for now at least.

Hyperspace21 gave me an email address of a professor. I'm going to check up on it when I get a chance, hopefully in a day or two, and will report back my findings. Until then lets stay on topic.

Give us some update.

Second that motion Manic, where have you been dude? Like I said before, you are needed... You aren't secretly hyperspace21, are you? LOL!

arent forum moderators supposed to do something about this sort of thing? this thread is a joke! i think scienceboy just had enough of everyones bulls**t

Very very sorry for being absent from the thread for so long. I've been busier with work than I've been in the last decade and haven't had time to really do my job as a moderator. I sincerely apologize for letting this thread get out of hand. I just spent more than an hour back-editing this thread and am about half way finished. It takes a lot of meticulous choice making when trying to filter out unapproved content while trying not to re-write history.

Also, action will be taken against users who breached the user agreement, that behavior didn't go unnoticed. Please feel free to PM me with questions or concerns and I'll try to get to them as soon as I can. Also, flagging content with a message to mods helps a lot in keeping us on top of our game. Thanks!

[manic_racetam]

Ok, thanks to a good suggestion from Ampa-Omega I moved all the posts relating to the op's credentials and all that other jazz, that I never want to think about again, to this separate thread. Please flag anything further that might get posted in this topic that isn't related to trying to get the most benefit from piracetam. Thanks again for everyone's patience and tolerance in the absence of the mods around here.

[niner]

There's been a lot of discussion in this thread about the difference between MSG and glutamic acid. The answer is, from a chemical perspective, not much. Glutamic acid is an amino acid with a carboxylic acid side chain. The reason that we call it an "acid" is because it has a proton (hydrogen ion) that comes off very easily. That's the definition of "acid". The side chain has a pKa of 4.1. That means that at a pH of 4.1, it will be half protonated, half ionic. At a pH lower than 4.1, it will essentially be completely protonated, and at a pH much above 4.1, it will be completely ionic. What does this mean? It means that when you swallow MSG and it hits the pH 1.5 stomach acid, the instant it is dissolved it is turned into glutamic acid. The sodium floats away, and is identical to dissolved sodium chloride. What then is the difference between MSG and glutamic acid? The only thing I can see is their relative water solubility. Glutamic acid is about 9g/liter, while MSG is 74g/L. The dissolution kinetics are probably different, so with MSG, the glutamic acid will dissolve faster. When the glutamic acid in solution hits the gut, where the pH is over 7, it will instantly ionize to the glutamate form, and this it what will be presented to the blood brain barrier. Milligram for milligram, glutamic acid contains more Glu than MSG, because MSG has the extra weight of the sodium ion.

I strongly recommend that everyone take a look at this Wikipedia page on glutamic acid/glutamate, with particular attention to the amount of free glutamate in various foods. Also note the excitotoxicity section.

MSG above 150mg per day = excitotoxic for normal people

L-Glutamic Acid = safer supplement

This isn't really consistent with the chemistry. Can you point to a reference that presents evidence that 150mg of MSG is excitotoxic for normal people? I just have a hard time believing that the FDA would be down with everyone who eats in a Chinese restaurant walking out with excitotoxicity, but I'm open to evidence.

anyone here compare results using glutamine vs glutamic acid

Yes, l-glutamine did not take away the irritibility, only l-glutamic acid

This is exactly what I'd expect. Glutamine and glutamate are very different, chemically. Glutamine is an amide, and does not ionize. Totally different.

Does anyone know if L-Theanine is sufficient as a Glutamic acid replacement since it is a Glutamic acid analogue?

Just from looking at the structure of theanine compared to glutamate, I wouldn't count on it, but I see some anecdotal reports that it plays well with piracetam, so maybe it's ok. Try it; YMMV.