469 replies to this topic

[alecnevsky]

Like all stimulants, caffeine sends a false signal to the brain - telling it that it should run faster than its base energy conversion systems can handle.

Can you just start providing references for every controversial statement you make? lol.

I found a study on amphetamine effects on mito. but nothing about "all stimulants" sending "false signals" etc.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12804698

[Isochroma]

That's because stimuants are pofitable. Who cares what the vicious long-term effects of them are when they make such enormous short-term profits?

Think.

The brain and entire body use a carefully-evolved feedback system to calibrate the organism's rate of lifetime energy expenditure to match the highest efficiency use pattern. Higher rates of energy conversion decrease the total amount of energy that mitochondria can convert over their lifetimes. This is because organisms get less efficient as they are forced to expend energy at higher rates. Furthermore, higher energy conversion rates mean more stress on all the systems that mop up the results. Just like over-revving your car engine, the added entropic effects of more heat and friction destroy it quicker.

Stimulants override the body's natural auto-behavioural-downregulatory system which is evolved to lower the organism's expenditure rate to the proprotion that its energy conversion and waste disposal systems are felt by the internal sense-systems to be burning themselves up at a higher than optimal rate. Conversely, if the organism's metabolic and waste-disposal systems are underutilized in time relative to the organism's lifetime, then the system signals to increase the energy (activity, etc.) expenditure rate to more closely match the evolved average 'best' for that species in its environmental circumstances.

Thus, when energy conversion and/or waste disposal is made more efficient, the organism's internal sense-loops detect the new state and alter their signals to direct the organism that it is now 'worthwhile' to burn faster. It's the most efficient auto-regulatory system that evolution could come up with despite its innumerable flaws.

Unfortunately, the brain cannot easily distinguish between a signal that says it and/or the whole body should accelerate to get closer to 'optimal' and the reality, especially when exogenous chemicals that imitate signalling chemicals are administered.

In the case of racetams, they improve metabolic capacity and also lower the toxicity of waste products to certain organs, so if the organism has a correctly-functioning internal sense-loop then that subsystem will sense the newly improved conditions and decrease the 'limiters' on higher-rate functioning because according to the new calculus the organism can now expend energy faster or generate wastes faster and maintain the same Return on Investment for its expenditures.

The bio-candle that burns twice as bright burns less than half as long, and conversely the bio-candle that burns half as bright burns longer than double the time due to higher efficiency at lower energy expenditure rates or waste production rates, both of which are both enabling and also damaging.

[Isochroma]

For example, when you get physically or mentally tired, do you really think that your energy expenditure capacity has dropped by that amount?

It has not. The proof is that if you take a stimulant, the 'fatigue' will decline or disappear - for a while. That's because you just lied to your brain.

The fatigue is a signal to lower your energy expenditure rate or waste production rate because it is exceeding the evolutionary optimal and continuing to do so will drastically shorten your life or reproductive capacity, as determined by many thousands of years of evolution.

Like a runner with a sprained ankle you can silence the signal using various means and keep running if you want - but the injury will become very bad if you do. Nature found some ways to prevent that - signals like pain, fatigue, etc. These signals lead (come ahead) of the larger problems because they are warnings to throttle back your activities. Sometimes the signals can safely be ignored - like phantom limb pain - but they are often accurate.

The burden of proof is on those who say a particular negatory signal is inaccurate.

The price to be paid by being optimistic about negatory signals is loss of health and life.

The benefit of being pessimistic about negatory signals is a longer and healthier life.

When you deny these signals you deny hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary selection. So the burden of proof is on the denier not the acknowledger.

[alecnevsky]

We have seen the studies of amphetamine-induced dopaminergic damage you linked but it was unclear, even to researchers at Johns Hopkins, as to why this damage manifested. It seems you, not only applied the results of the baboon amphetamine study to humans (despite the warnings in the study of reasoning thus,) but you also defined its [amph. damage] mechanisms and generalized it to caffeine and other/all stimulants.

You may be right., and down-regulation is a "thing" but not all products of evolution are wonderfully optimized, hence we have Parkinson's Alzheimer's and Schizophrenic/Psychotic disorders that are relieved to some limited extent by these supplements. While that could be because of deficiency, or whatever, it does follow that the human brain is not in an ever-optimal state necessarily. So while signs of fatigue are, in one case, because you ran a marathon and in another because you have CFS or something. So by your logic persons with disorders taking stimulants are "lying to their brain." I don't see why it's not the same when non-diagnosed persons take stims to do the same, namely, lie to their brain and improve its efficiency.

[Raza]

Either all drugs (and other artificial signals) are 'lying to the brain', or none of them are. And if you say that all of them are, you're going to have to admit that 'lying to the brain' is not inherently harmful, just a rhetorically loaded metaphor with limited technical relevance.

Harm (sometimes) manifests from specific substances at specific doses by specific mechanisms, not by sheer virtue of sending a signal that your brain wouldn't have on its own. The burden of proof lies with the maker of a claim, for each specific effect of each specific substance claimed.

Anyway, 'natural' energy levels have other evolutionary purposes than indicating the healthy limits of our performance capacity to our brains. They're for a very large part designed to encourage behavioural patterns that led to survival and reproduction under conditions of a hunter-gathered lifestyle and wild natural environment. If you're not in that environment, and having as many surviving children as possible is not your life goal, it is perfectly reasonable to override some of these signals so you feel better doing what you do want to do with your life... not to mention those that grossly dysfunction and actually harm us under conditions of the modern lifestyle.

Some signals are better of not ignored, certainly, but distinguishing those again comes with a burden of proof.

Edited by Raza, 03 December 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[chung_pao]

For example, when you get physically or mentally tired, do you really think that your energy expenditure capacity has dropped by that amount?

It has not. The proof is that if you take a stimulant, the 'fatigue' will decline or disappear - for a while. That's because you just lied to your brain.

The fatigue is a signal to lower your energy expenditure rate or waste production rate because it is exceeding the evolutionary optimal and continuing to do so will drastically shorten your life or reproductive capacity, as determined by many thousands of years of evolution.

Like a runner with a sprained ankle you can silence the signal using various means and keep running if you want - but the injury will become very bad if you do. Nature found some ways to prevent that - signals like pain, fatigue, etc. These signals lead (come ahead) of the larger problems because they are warnings to throttle back your activities. Sometimes the signals can safely be ignored - like phantom limb pain - but they are often accurate.

The burden of proof is on those who say a particular negatory signal is inaccurate.

The price to be paid by being optimistic about negatory signals is loss of health and life.

The benefit of being pessimistic about negatory signals is a longer and healthier life.

When you deny these signals you deny hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary selection. So the burden of proof is on the denier not the acknowledger.

What exactly is the harmful mechanism of action of caffeine/stimulants?

Is it the inhibition of adenosine?
Is it the fact that stimulants inhibit the body's own rest and recovery?
The manipulation of your dopamine levels?
Increasing the energy expenditure of the body by consuming these drugs?

What is the actual negative mechanism of action?
Would you say something that increases dopamine/norepinephrine sensitivity is just as bad?

How come you're such a strong proponent of racetams, then on the other hand completely denounce racetams?
Aren't both having the same downstream effect; increasing enjoyment, motivation and experience of life by enhancing certain neurotransmitters?

I'm asking out of curiousity, you're very controversial yet well-read it seems.

I also have a strong dislike for caffeine. But that is referring to high doses of caffeine, and the dislike comes from the desensitization and disruption of even normal dopamine production follows administration.

Edited by chung_pao, 03 December 2012 - 11:35 AM.

[Isochroma]

The racetams - Piracetam for example - alter both signalling and actual metabolic processes in the mitochondria, along with providing toxin protection. By doing so it increases the body's metabolic ability and thus the Energy Return on Energy Investment (EROEI). If you don't differentiate between classes of effects then you won't understand the crucial differences between molecules.

It seems my ideas were accurate: THE HUMAN BRAIN CANNOT INHERENTLY DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE ILLUSION OF ENERGY CONVERSION CAPACITY AND ITS ACTUALITY. That does not mean such distinction is impossible - thanks to the side-effects of many drugs an observant person can usually learn of them - but such an activity requires intelligence and careful self-observation over time. The human brain simply cannot do so inherently because there was never evolutionary pressure for that capacity since throughout almost all of human history such agents didn't exist other than those obtainable in small amounts from plants. From what we have of historical records these exceptions were rare and used sparingly by tribal peoples of history. The modern phenomenon of large majorities of populations using drugs is at absolute variance with history. Not to mention all the other crap being infected and injected into their dying bodies.

Thus the legions of stimulant-addicts fooled into thinking their molecule(s) of choice are actually helping them. It's sick and thus they are sick beings who are dying. It is not my purpose to waste time trying to save the voluntary suicidals but to simply point out their follies to everyone else to further general understanding. By their example many others can avoid the pitfalls they fell into. I attract their attentions like sugar does to flies because lies are allergic to truths and established illusions are threatened by independent and intuitive thinking - which is why I left this board years ago and might be leaving it again soon..

There is a simple test which anyone can perform to find the truth about any particular drug: simply take it daily and observe the after-effects. Stimulants produce acute after-effects of tiredness (crash) and over longer periods of time cause decay of the body because - in addition to the particular toxic effect of any one molecule - they override the body's natural signalling system and cause it to expend metabolic energy faster. Other classes such as benzodiazepines produce ATP and electron-pressure deficiencies in mitochondria in addition to the problems they create in the body's signalling systems.

Likely because most Internet users are American and Americans show an exceptional stupidity - likely due to the combination of fluoridation (already shown to lower IQ), medical toxification with vicious drugs such as amphetamines, benzodiazepines, alcohol, caffeine (provided in schools to get the children addicted early - a crime for which prison sentences for all involed would be thoroughly appropriate) - all reasons why racetams don't work 'properly' for those victims - and the largest propaganda and mind-control system ever deployed in the history of humanity. One intended to suppress the simple act of independent thought and turn the majority of the population into mindless zombie-slaves. I get so sick and tired of dealing with these zombies who apparently can't think for themselves and must be told that what they are doing to their bodies is foolish. Big Pharma just runs their lives - usually into the ground. A society that is absolutely dominated by giant transnational corporations selling toxic drugs and owning whole governments via regulatory capture can be trusted to ensure its own filthy interests at the expense of everyone and everything else - including the environment itself as well.

Molecules fit into only two categories as far as their net effects on the body's health:

1. Depleting molecules. These molecules by one or other means cause the body's health to decline. They include but are not limited to: Radioactives, Heavy Metals (destroy metabolism), Fluoride, Alcohol, Benzodiazepines (proven to decrease mitochondrial potential, I have the study), Stimulants, Cancer Chemotherapy Agents (the toxic type), many Antibiotics whose toxicity is increasing in the endless and unwinnable 'war' against natural bacteria and fungus, and more. Sadly the list is too long to enumerate here but the results can be seen everyday as the populace sickens and dies of exponentially increasing disease rates.

2. Repleting molecules. They are very rare, much rarer than the depleters. They fall into two subcategories: Foods and synergists. Just like the internal combustion engine which has fuel and lubricant. Racetams are not fuel - they cannot be burned for energy - they act more like lubricants. In fact, Piracetam itself has direct physical lubricant properties which fluidize cell membranes, allowing them to function as if they were young again or even better. This also increases the intersurface membrane potential produced by the mitochondrial energy-conversion subsystem, increasing the production and utilization of ATP.

The body's own regulatory loops prevent the increases in metabolic efficiency from resulting in absolute increases in metabolic rate - thus the body does not warm up in temperature when exposed to a racetam for example - unlike a stimulant which creates a lying signal which alters the setpoint homeostasis value - unless the basal rate is below the genetically-determined optimal value due to dysfunction. In that case, the real value will rise as close to the preprogrammed attractor as the new EROEI value allows it to.

I want even more power though. I want power that never ends. Real power, the power of the magic spinning turbines of eternity! The power to engange the magic nanomachines of evolutionary eternity to their maximum potential while maintaining the most efficient and toxin-free cyclic chemo-interconversion supersystems. That will require even more powerful molecules which can exceed the best of racetams in their ability to both increase the efficiency of energy generation and protect against the toxins produced by normal and abnormal body function - including exogenous insults both chemical and radiological.

There is much work to be done so I cannot spend too much time arguing the details. Even now I must deal with quotes for these new substances which will enable the step-up into a new level of superfunction for the human organism. The grand prize is a flashy lure that draws me ever closer to its brilliant light which shines on into the eternity of this Universe's highly complex energy-entropy interconversion processes mediated by the stuff we are all made of - the magic matter of molecular-atomic interactivity that plays out this existence's music like the keys of a grand piano. It's time for a new song.

They can't figure out Piracetam. That's the most incriminating fact - one that shows not only their mindlimits but also lack of sufficient computational rate capacity. Global electric field simulation is not trivial and requires massive resources. And that kind of simulation is required because Piracetam along with certain other agents does not chemically react anywhere in an organism but maintains its molecular integrity. The shape of its electric field and its internal flexionability alter the molecules it touches like a drop of soap alters the surface tension of water. Global simulation is required for such effects to be realized in the simulator and traditional electron sharing-exchange chemistry is not only insufficient but in the case of Piracetam is entirely inadequate to explain the molecule's effects inside bio-organisms.

Edited by Isochroma-Reborn, 03 December 2012 - 09:53 PM.

[alecnevsky]

"Well-read" is obviously not the same as educated. No references, no coherent argument, allusions to socioeconomic phenomena to prove a largely biological mechanism, grandiosity, conspiracies and utterly shite metaphors a 3rd grader would not make. Sounds like a manic episode. #discredited

[Dissolvedissolve]

"Well-read" is obviously not the same as educated. No references, no coherent argument, allusions to socioeconomic phenomena to prove a largely biological mechanism, grandiosity, conspiracies and utterly shite metaphors a 3rd grader would not make. Sounds like a manic episode. #discredited

Keep in mind you're dealing with isochroma, who has quite a history at this site.

In any case, I would just like to add that arguments based on "optimal efficiency," even if true, are based on the environment of evolutionary adaptation - that being some sort of hunter-gatherer society - involving far different needs and desires than we have today. Additionally, evolutionary fitness is tuned for propagation of genetic material rather than individual life satisfaction, so we may actually desire an evolutionarily undesirable outcome. We now have far different needs, and we have an ability to eat as much as possible. If we are able to, essentially, make our brains work harder with lower efficiency, that's a desirable outcome for many of us, even if it lowers the efficiency of energy expenditure.

Also, I would just like to say that the claim regarding the difference between a hydrogen or sodium cation is pretty irrelevant. Yes, MSG will work as a source of glutamate, and I never denied that, but it will also supply a large excess of sodium, which most people have far more than enough of. Glutamic acid is a better choice since it provides glutamate without the sodium.

[Isochroma]

The attacks begin again.

Rather than have the creativity or intelligence to write something themselves the losers attack me again.

Sad. Their vacuity becomes ever more apparent.

Unsubscribed from this thread.

Anyone who wants to have an interesting talk with me will do so by PM only from now on.

As for those in this thread who perpetrated useless noncontributive attacks against me - you're already blocked so don't bother messaging me.

Edited by Isochroma-Reborn, 04 December 2012 - 12:19 AM.

[chung_pao]

Wow, that was entertaining.
I'm not insulting you Ischroma. I like different. Different is required for any type or change or progression from the norm.

I know we probably have much less knowledge about the interactions and mechanisms of action of the molecules we're consuming on a daily basis.
Anything that is not grown or bred is just a wild-card, an educated guess.
But I also know that artificial means make it possible to reap benefits which normal food can't provide.

That is why I like listening to anyone who seem passionate. They might share something unusually useful.
Thanks for the different perspective Ischroma.

To stay on topic: I tried an Aniracetam + Piracetam stack with cottage cheese (quickly absorbed glutamic acid and 500+ mg calcium).
Worked like a charm. Made me experience brighter colors and increased alertness and recall.
It actually increased my pain threshold significantly as well. (I use cold showers daily for testosterone and mood, and today it felt much milder)
My juggling even went smoother, more effortless.

Earlier, I've used racetams while fasting (empty stomach, no food). This is a horrible idea. It'll have an opposite effect of what it's supposed to.

Edited by chung_pao, 04 December 2012 - 12:26 AM.

[Isochroma]

Thanks for the nice comments chung_pao!

I must emphasize that it's still theory, but I believe in myself even if others don't.

Without that self-confidence I couldn't keep learning about even more amazing things!

Don't ever let them brainwash you out of independent thinking. And don't fear if you're right or wrong, just keep producing.

Those who don't produce are obvious - instead of creating that which is new they only attack those who are the creators - right or wrong as the creators may be.

Thanks to this forum's advanced blocking features I don't have to see the sinks. I want to speak with the sources and those who are aligned in my direction.

Slowly I will build a cadre of individuals who are dedicated to truly moving forward into the eternity of revolution which this Universe is always luring us to dive into.

The next step is acquisition of DM-235 which I plan to do in early January.

I have five excellent sources direct from manufacturers.

Edited by Isochroma-Reborn, 04 December 2012 - 12:35 AM.

[Adaptogen]

I do not believe you are really isochroma

Edited by Adaptogen, 04 December 2012 - 01:19 AM.

[SuperjackDid_]

One more research on calcium channel

Participation of dihydropyridine-sensitive calcium channels in psychotropic effects of nootropic drugs

Administration of Ca-entry blockers with different chemical structure before the braining sessions produced the reduction of memory retention in mice and rats in the one-trial passive avoidance tests. This effect was absent in animals treated immediately after training test. Nootropic drugs piracetam and oxiracetam corrected the retention of memory when injected just after training test. Chronic treatment of rats with increasing doses of the nootropic drugs produced about two-fold tissue-specific elevation in the density of DHP-receptors, associated with L-type Ca-channels in synaptosomalmembranes of rat cerebral cortex. Maximal effect was observed in a dose of 10 mg/kg. Diltiazem, administrated in a dose of 10 mg/kg, produced about two-fold decrease in the receptors density measured 24 hrs after the first injection. Oxiracetam (10 mg/kg) completely antagonized the effect of Ca-entry blocker. These data imply that nootropic action of piracetam and oxiracetam is mediated by L-type Ca-channels.

[Isochroma]

Adaptogen: I don't believe it either! I changed too much. How will I recognize myself in another five years?

It's not about people, it's about science, so don't worry who I am.

Nootrpix: Thanks for the study! Somehow I missed it. That's what other folks are for. Your find has far closer correlational integrity to the questions at hand than the ones I found.

[optic]

I wonder if you have to cycle racetams. Do you take the same amount of racetams each day? Do you take days off per week? Do you stop every 3 months completely? I would love to hear opinions from long term users.

[Adaptogen]

i take piracetam sporadically..every day for a week then stop. i feel like i notice a heavy dose of piracetam more than noopept but i have yet to try large doses of it. I always get effects though when i do use it. the best dose is supposedely 4.8 grams, twice a day i think..heavy i know, ive done it a few times but never more than that. would be interested in trying 10 grams or something crazy..i would like to hear more about megadoses

Edited by Adaptogen, 05 December 2012 - 10:19 AM.

[Isochroma]

Same here - I always get effects. No need to cycle.

[tea76]

I drink about 2 glasses of whole milk per day + the occasional bowl of cottage cheese, etc. This should be sufficient to cover the calcium RDI, right? Is there further need beyond the RDI to consume calcium in regards to Piracetam effectiveness?

Also, I have learned that it is important to balance calcium with magnesium, and that most adults have a magnesium deficiency. Should I supplement with magnesium and will this have any affect on my nootropic stack (Piracetam + AlphaGPC)?

Edited by ecglsd, 06 December 2012 - 01:22 PM.

[Isochroma]

No. If you're a North American / Western European or anyone First World enough to be consuming lots of protein then the extra protein added by eating dairy products is causing you a net loss of calcium. The body pulls Ca and also Mg from the bones to neutralize the acid produced by excess protein consumption. Here's their phrasing:

"Eating protein triggers the release of acids in the body. Too much protein causes acid levels to rise. To neutralize the acidity, the body releases buffering substances such as calcium phosphate. To produce enough calcium phosphate, the body pulls calcium from the bones."

The extra protein has to be disposed of - when it's burned for energy it creates acid that must be neutralized to maintain blood pH. Ca and Mg are used for that neutralization. Here are two more references from different sites:

"Osteoporosis and Kidney Stones: Diets that are rich in animal protein cause people to excrete more calcium than normal through their kidneys and increase the risk of osteoporosis. Countries with lower-protein diets have lower rates of osteoporosis and hip fractures."

"Dietary protein increases production of acid in the blood
which can be neutralized by calcium mobilized from the
skeleton."
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 1995; 61 (4)

Dairy products come with protein and if the consumer already has enough protein in their diet there is not even enough Calcium in dairy to neutralize the extra protein - so more Ca and Mg will be withdrawn from bones to maintain blood pH. Cheese is particularly acid-forming.

Get your Ca and Mg from supplements. They don't add a protein burden so they are a net supplier.

Note that the epidemic of osteoporosis in first-world countries is not due to lack of Calcium. It is caused by too much protein and insufficient Vitamin D - which allows the Calcium to be absorbed efficiently and is also required for Ca to be deposited into bones for storage. Otherwise it's just pissed out.

Edited by Isochroma-Reborn, 06 December 2012 - 10:43 PM.

[Raza]

From what I learned in high-school chemistry, calcium phosphate salt bases are going to release their calcium (and probably magnesium) ions back into the bloodstream when they react to neutralize an acid.

That doesn't put it back into your skeleton, but I think most of it shouldn't be lost entirely. It'll be available for other processess, including but not limited to excretion by the kidneys.

Edited by Raza, 06 December 2012 - 10:53 PM.

[Isochroma]

As of 2012/12/06 I have stopped the MSG portion of the PIR+MSG test.

The brain fatigue began to show itself again on that date and I have concluded that while MSG increases PIR's effects, the PIR+MSG combination does not equal or even begin to reach the energy-conversion restorativity capacity of higher racetams.

I have therefore added 300mg x 6 per day of Pramiracetam to the lone PIR and it has already removed the brain fatigue in less than 24 hours, along with a significant boost in visual color saturation and sharpness that exceeds the PIR+MSG combination.

I am sorry to say this but it is not possible to cheaply obtain the power of higher racetams by adding a cooking spice to Piracetam.

That said, I do not regret testing the combination. Both negative and positive results were equally expected. Experiments yield data which is valuable regardless of whether it meets our expectations or not.

The honest reporting of embarassing, unexpected or disappointing results is a very important element of experimental research - one that is all too often missing from today's highly monied and often career-invested 'science' whose goals are anything but the truth.

Edited by Isochroma-Reborn, 08 December 2012 - 04:37 AM.

[#1stunna]

Isochroma-Reborn do you have any excitotoxicity concerns whatsoever with your stack?


A healthy liver breaks down protein aand has ammonia as a byproduct which it breaks down into urea and out into the urine. Do you have drug/alcohol or liver issues potentially???? Otherwise healthy?? Any jaundice?

[Isochroma]

The symtoms started when I was 13. Nothing to do with anything today.

I dont' take any alcohol or caffeine.

[kevinseven11]

Id suggest a potassium supplement and choline and alcar. Acetyl choline is comprised of both chemicals. The potassuim should also be included with salt. People often notice they are a little dumber after taking piracetam because they are drained from these chems. People also have lower energy or drained adrenal glands due to low salt.

[Isochroma]

Started the hi-K diet yesterday. 4-8 bananas per day as complete carb replacement.

[Introspecta]

You will feel much better eating large amount of bananas. I've toyed with eating 100% Raw foods but have never been able to keep up with it and I always feel better. Sometimes I will replace dinner with like 6 bananas. If anyone tells you to watch out for potassium poisoning then they are misinformed. Can't believe how many people were telling me I was eating too many bananas and that it was unhealthy. You'd have to eat something like 800 bananas within 3 minutes to get potassium poisoning...... People look at you strange for eating 5 bananas but won't think twice about eating 5 pieces of pizza..

[chung_pao]

Seems like the new nootropic stack is bananas+piracetam.

I also believe the high potassium is one of the energizing qualities of raw cocoa. Along with the theobromine of course.

Edited by chung_pao, 12 December 2012 - 11:06 PM.

[SuperjackDid_]

too late my adrenal glands already burnt out .

Edited by Nootropix, 13 December 2012 - 02:22 AM.

[Adaptogen]

psilocybin, contemplation, diet & exercise