469 replies to this topic

[Brundle99]

Hi Megatrone

The choline I take because Piracetam causes large quantities of acetylcholine to be relocated to a specific area in the brain, and I thought it was supposed to help boost the effects.

The Fish oil side of things is because of this statement:

Both fish oil and Piracetam are acting on the brain's membrane fluidity. But rather to take an excessive dose of each, we should take a variety of supplements that are acting on the membrane fluidity. That might give us more benefits and reduce our chance of oxidation and side-effect.

I posted in multiple threads because I posted a few questions before days ago and didn't get a response, so posting other places on the same Topic gives me a wider audience.

[AndorBandi]

Hello,

I have some question for some expert in nootropics. I have started taking piracetam 1 week ago. My first dose was 4.8 gr Pira + 1.2 gr choline-britrate. After few minutes, I felt dizziness and I could not walk properly etc. It was so horrible that I even wrote a letter in case of I would be found unconscious. It took only 3 hours then I got sleepy. Great... After, the following days, I took less piracetam (1-3.5gr), 200 mg choline to avoid headache, + 800 mg calcium + 1200 mg fish oil. But every time, I felt fatigue instantly as I took them. Once or twice, I tried without choline, but I couldn't feel any difference: as I drank my turmix, I got sleepy instantly - however, it should take 1-2 hour to have any effect. Why I am so sleepy? I must sleep more? Or is it only the first week?

I heard about glutamic acid and its alternatives (whey protein, creatine). Therefore, I took 5 gr creating and 25gr whey pro with pira (3 gr), choline (200 mg) + a cup of coffee, +800 mg calcium, + 1200mg fishoil. I experienced that I was just a bit tired. Hey, let's try glutamic acid then! As I know from Wikipedia, 100 gr Marmite contains around 1900 mg of this. I bought one jar, took around 5 gr of it for 100mg glutamic acid with the same package. The result was not as good as I expected (little fatigue). I gave it a second chance, I ate 5gr Marmite 30 minutes before, but now with 4.8 gr pira (others are same). More tired... I took so much effort to stay awake, what to do, I took creatine-monohydrate, and it got much better. I don't understand: why did the creatine seem more efficient? bonus: Whenever I raise the choline dose (>300 mg), I feel dizziness.

So, I played with the dose of the choline, but above 300 mg I am ill. I tried to gather glutamic acid from Marmite (5gr), seems worse solution than creatine-monohydrate (5mg). I always take 800 mg calcium and 1200 mg fish oil. With standard supplements (choline, calcium, fish oil), any dose of piracetamin make me tired. With +creatine + coffee (+whey protein sometimes) and standard supplements, just a little fatigue up to 3.5 gr. More pira makes me more tired. I think sometimes I experience color enhancement. Main question: What makes me sleepy? Is there anything what I can take to avoid this side-effect? Thanks for any suggestion.

Edited by AndorBandi, 14 January 2013 - 10:46 PM.

[troubleis]

About the sleepiness..
I felt sleepy the first week i was on Piracetam. The first few days i had troube falling asleep.
After that, i had no troubles falling asleep. Only getting up again. One day i had the option to not get up early. Normally 6 hours is all i need before i wake up by myself. This particular day i slept for almost 10 hours before waking up needing to pee.. Never tried that before!

After a week or 2 i had a normal sleeping routine.

[Heh]

Try it one day without choline, or take choline at bed time, then the rest during the day.

[AndorBandi]

Unfortunately, without choline I have a headache. I did it a few times, but as I remember, it wasn't the answer.
I hope I will experience the same as troubleis. But until, I will take only 3 gr pira, which is not as horrible.

[chung_pao]

Hello,

I have some question for some expert in nootropics. I have started taking piracetam 1 week ago. My first dose was 4.8 gr Pira + 1.2 gr choline-britrate. After few minutes, I felt dizziness and I could not walk properly etc. It was so horrible that I even wrote a letter in case of I would be found unconscious. It took only 3 hours then I got sleepy. Great... After, the following days, I took less piracetam (1-3.5gr), 200 mg choline to avoid headache, + 800 mg calcium + 1200 mg fish oil. But every time, I felt fatigue instantly as I took them. Once or twice, I tried without choline, but I couldn't feel any difference: as I drank my turmix, I got sleepy instantly - however, it should take 1-2 hour to have any effect. Why I am so sleepy? I must sleep more? Or is it only the first week?

I heard about glutamic acid and its alternatives (whey protein, creatine). Therefore, I took 5 gr creating and 25gr whey pro with pira (3 gr), choline (200 mg) + a cup of coffee, +800 mg calcium, + 1200mg fishoil. I experienced that I was just a bit tired. Hey, let's try glutamic acid then! As I know from Wikipedia, 100 gr Marmite contains around 1900 mg of this. I bought one jar, took around 5 gr of it for 100mg glutamic acid with the same package. The result was not as good as I expected (little fatigue). I gave it a second chance, I ate 5gr Marmite 30 minutes before, but now with 4.8 gr pira (others are same). More tired... I took so much effort to stay awake, what to do, I took creatine-monohydrate, and it got much better. I don't understand: why did the creatine seem more efficient? bonus: Whenever I raise the choline dose (>300 mg), I feel dizziness.

So, I played with the dose of the choline, but above 300 mg I am ill. I tried to gather glutamic acid from Marmite (5gr), seems worse solution than creatine-monohydrate (5mg). I always take 800 mg calcium and 1200 mg fish oil. With standard supplements (choline, calcium, fish oil), any dose of piracetamin make me tired. With +creatine + coffee (+whey protein sometimes) and standard supplements, just a little fatigue up to 3.5 gr. More pira makes me more tired. I think sometimes I experience color enhancement. Main question: What makes me sleepy? Is there anything what I can take to avoid this side-effect? Thanks for any suggestion.

I experienced the exact same thing; tiredness to the point of depression combined with extreme lethargy and finally a passout.
Cause?
Alpha-gpc (a precursor of acetylcholine, able to pass the blood brain barrier and instantly raise Acetylcholine levels)

Acetylcholine is mainly part of the parasympathetic nervous system. It stimulates a rest-and-relax response.
The effect you want from the racetams is potentiation of NMDA and AMPA receptors.
It'll energize you instead of put you to sleep.

Do you eat a lot of choline daily? If so, cut down on it. It also occurs in other products, such as eggs.
Take your piracetam with anything BUT choline.
For example, Glutamic acid, Piracetam, Creatine, Fish oil, Caffeine.
That combination seems to work for anyone who actually responds to piracetam.

If you take in a lot of choline from other sources, that could be the reason for excessive acetylcholine in your system when combining with Piracetam.

Otherwise, you could look into Aniracetam. I've heard that it has a more potent effect on the NMDA and AMPA receptors.
These are subtypes of Glutamatergic receptors which control memory. They also affect dopamine neurons, and if potentiated correctly, increase your motivation, even to the point of some people experiencing euphoria and mania.

Edited by chung_pao, 15 January 2013 - 10:39 PM.

[AndorBandi]

Thank you for the answer, chung_pao. Actually, I eat a lot of meat (half kg per day) which is also contain choline. When I don't take further choline bitartate, I have a little headache. However, next time I will try to ignore and see what happens.

[SuperjackDid_]

Pottasium is released when piracetam exerts its function. This effect in turn releases glutamate. This glutamate is then converted into gaba which is why some people report reduced levels of anxiety while on piracetam. Perhaps just eating bananas isnt strong enough. Glutamate appears not to work as others have stated in this thread. So perhaps there are vitamins or chemicals that will raised brain levels of pottasium.

interesting study about piracetam and potassium orotate

[Comparative study of the indices of the antidepressive activity of potassium orotate andpiracetam].

[Article in Russian]
Karkishchenko NN, Khaĭtin MI.

Abstract

It has been established in mouse experiments that potassium orotate (100 mg/kg) and piracetam (500 mg/kg) given in chronic oral doses have an antidepressant activity according to the "behavioral despair" test. It has been demonstrated that antidepressant activity of potassium orotate (20 and 50 mg/kg) and piracetam (50 and 100 mg/kg) is associated with a psychostimulant effect.

PMID: 3996568 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

worth a try ?

[SuperjackDid_]

New aspects in mechanisms of antihypoxic piracetam action.

Wustmann C, Fischer HD, Rudolph E, Schmidt J.

Source

Institute of Pharmacology and Toxicology, Medical Academy Carl Gustav Carus, Dresden, DDR.

Abstract

A long-term piracetamtreatment leads to an improved stimulus-effect-coupling of potassium stimulated dopamine release: The maximum effect of the potassium stimulus is already obtained in presence of much lower Ca++-concentrations (Ca++-economizing effect) than normally. In consequence of the improved stimulus-effect-coupling by piracetamtreatment the dose-dependent inhibitory effect of the calcium antagonist flunarizine on the fractional efflux rate of dopamine is decreased. The volume of vesicular structures is not involved in the piracetam effect.

what it mean ?

[hephaestus]

Try taking the choline and pira at different times, it seems to work better for some people.

[AndorBandi]

Hello guys!
Maybe it sounds a bit strange, but 50mg Pregnenolone supplement has solved my problem (drowsiness). Probably I am experiencing adrenal fatigue and with this supplement it can be solved. The only thing I have to worry about to take pregn. to empty stomach and hours before the first piracetam, in any other cases it is not as effective.
I read about adrenal fatigue/adrenal stuffs here:
http://www.longecity...non-responders/
http://www.neurobrai...k-for-some.html

I hope it helps to others,
bye

[Adaptogen]

is it possible that I feel effects from piracetam just minutes after ingesting?

[hephaestus]

I have felt acute effects on occasion when taking it on an empty stomach.

[Adaptogen]

hyper-perception, the manic gift of gods


(typing that as I struggle through partial color blindness to distinguish between hues)

Edited by Adaptogen, 05 February 2013 - 11:13 PM.

[alecnevsky]

I've been on 4.8g (single morning dose) of Pir daily + 3.5g Glutamine powder (morning) and ~ 600mg Choline Bitartrate powder (night) daily for a week and a half. I don't think I feel any differently... Sometimes I add 500mg of Glutamate (Glutamic Acid) with Piracetam to the same general effect. Something tells me I am not experiencing any "excitotoxicity..." I do feel ok however, but that's the baseline anyway as I often do HIIT workouts. Good to know it's less toxic than salt but then I also do not eat 5 grams of salt per day... I still haven't found anything better than armodafinil insofar as psycho-stimulation and visuo-spacial acuity (math, symbols, response times etc. ) potentiation.

[Adaptogen]

so was it decided that food is not an effective source of glutamic acid?

[chung_pao]

It should be effective, just like food is an effective source of tyrosine.
But, it goes without saying that each amino acid is absorbed much easier when not competing with other amino acids.

[Mr. Pink]

I've been on 4.8g (single morning dose) of Pir daily + 3.5g Glutamine powder (morning) and ~ 600mg Choline Bitartrate powder (night) daily for a week and a half. I don't think I feel any differently... Sometimes I add 500mg of Glutamate (Glutamic Acid) with Piracetam to the same general effect. Something tells me I am not experiencing any "excitotoxicity..." I do feel ok however, but that's the baseline anyway as I often do HIIT workouts. Good to know it's less toxic than salt but then I also do not eat 5 grams of salt per day... I still haven't found anything better than armodafinil insofar as psycho-stimulation and visuo-spacial acuity (math, symbols, response times etc. ) potentiation.

throughout this thread, the question about whether glutamine helps has been asked several times. as i recall, the answer was "no," it's glutamate. so why take it? i understand the instestine uses up glutamine before it even gets to the brain. i think sublingual is the way to go if you're taking glutamine for nootropic effects, rather than intestinal health and immunity boost.

also, why take choline at night? there's evidence that choline levels should be low at night for memory consolidation.

[alecnevsky]

^ Glutamine <--> glutamate is like bidirectional cycle from what I gather. I take glutamine because it's in my whey powder, which I dose daily b/c of my lifestyle. Choline at night b/c I have school responsibilities and need to be awake and performing during the day (i.e., choline induces sleepiness.) Could you provide references for choline at night vs memory consolidation. I actually found that it induces more REM sleep, which is commonly associated with memory consolidation. (vs deep sleep, which you also need.) I take glutamate post lunch.

Edited by alecnevsky, 16 February 2013 - 06:09 AM.

[Mr. Pink]

^ Glutamine <--> glutamate is like bidirectional cycle from what I gather. I take glutamine because it's in my whey powder, which I dose daily b/c of my lifestyle. Choline at night b/c I have school responsibilities and need to be awake and performing during the day (i.e., choline induces sleepiness.) Could you provide references for choline at night vs memory consolidation. I actually found that it induces more REM sleep, which is commonly associated with memory consolidation. (vs deep sleep, which you also need.) I take glutamate post lunch.

a very quick search got me this: http://www.pnas.org/...101/7/1795.full

there's another one on pubmed that explicitely states that you need low ach for consolidation. i'll look for it later. as far as is it REM, i believe it is both REM and slow wave deep sleep (as discussed in the linked study) and that ach gives more REM at expense of deep sleep.

it's strange that it makes you sleepy. it makes me wide awake.

about the glutamine, it has been discussed in this thread many times. also the difference between whey protein and the actual isolated amino acids has also been discussed. like you said, glutamine doesn't do anything for piracetam.

[Adaptogen]

Mr. Pink, I am Mr. Blonde

[alecnevsky]

^ Glutamine <--> glutamate is like bidirectional cycle from what I gather. I take glutamine because it's in my whey powder, which I dose daily b/c of my lifestyle. Choline at night b/c I have school responsibilities and need to be awake and performing during the day (i.e., choline induces sleepiness.) Could you provide references for choline at night vs memory consolidation. I actually found that it induces more REM sleep, which is commonly associated with memory consolidation. (vs deep sleep, which you also need.) I take glutamate post lunch.

a very quick search got me this: http://www.pnas.org/...101/7/1795.full

there's another one on pubmed that explicitely states that you need low ach for consolidation. i'll look for it later. as far as is it REM, i believe it is both REM and slow wave deep sleep (as discussed in the linked study) and that ach gives more REM at expense of deep sleep.

it's strange that it makes you sleepy. it makes me wide awake.

about the glutamine, it has been discussed in this thread many times. also the difference between whey protein and the actual isolated amino acids has also been discussed. like you said, glutamine doesn't do anything for piracetam.

Ah! Thanks. Check this out: http://www.pnas.org/...pe2=tf_ipsecsha

also this: http://www.cell.com/...50?showall=true

In particular, I will suggest that the high levels of acetylcholine that are present during active waking might set the appropriate dynamics for encoding new information in the hippocampus, by partially suppressing excitatory feedback connections and so facilitating encoding without interference from previously stored information. By contrast, the lower levels of acetylcholine that are present during quiet waking and slow-wave sleep might release this suppression and thereby allow a stronger spread of activity within the hippocampus itself and from the hippocampus to the entorhinal cortex, thus facilitating the process of consolidation of separate memory traces.

It looks like he's describing the two-stage memory consolidation process.


The study you referenced is like a meta-analysis (and very convoluted.) But yeah, it looks like low levels of Ach during SWS is crucial for declarative memory consolidation (semantics, basic math etc.) It does not affect procedural memory h/e (so you're not going to forget how to type/write or play chess it seems.) Still, since most of our higher procedural knowledge is based on simple axioms, it seems crucial not to interfere with dec memory consolidation. I'd like to know if anyone has any thoughts on this. Gladly I've only been dosing choline before sleep for like a week. These lucid dreams were quite something (very elucidative of my life actually) but I can definitely go without them if I that will help me graduate.

So my preliminary conclusion is that: Ach is crucial for 1st stage of memory encoding as it suppresses the "bursts" from the hypothalamus while low levels are needed during SWS to facilitate this feedback back to neocortex for the 2nd (and final?) consolidation process. Hm. So I guess choline at night is not the best way to go after all. So if you can afford the attenuation (you're not falling asleep after choline dosing) of "excitatory feedback connections" then that would satisfy the ideal conditions for two-stage memory encoding process, given that you also do not supplement choline before bed. In fact, it seems it would make most sense taking Choline in the morning since post-lunch tiredness is virtually universal and taking before bed would disrupt one of the consolidation processes. (Ha! "eggs for breakfast" now really makes sense.)

Edited by alecnevsky, 16 February 2013 - 09:52 PM.

[Mr. Pink]

^ Glutamine <--> glutamate is like bidirectional cycle from what I gather. I take glutamine because it's in my whey powder, which I dose daily b/c of my lifestyle. Choline at night b/c I have school responsibilities and need to be awake and performing during the day (i.e., choline induces sleepiness.) Could you provide references for choline at night vs memory consolidation. I actually found that it induces more REM sleep, which is commonly associated with memory consolidation. (vs deep sleep, which you also need.) I take glutamate post lunch.

a very quick search got me this: http://www.pnas.org/...101/7/1795.full

there's another one on pubmed that explicitely states that you need low ach for consolidation. i'll look for it later. as far as is it REM, i believe it is both REM and slow wave deep sleep (as discussed in the linked study) and that ach gives more REM at expense of deep sleep.

it's strange that it makes you sleepy. it makes me wide awake.

about the glutamine, it has been discussed in this thread many times. also the difference between whey protein and the actual isolated amino acids has also been discussed. like you said, glutamine doesn't do anything for piracetam.

Ah! Thanks. Check this out: http://www.pnas.org/...pe2=tf_ipsecsha

also this: http://www.cell.com/...50?showall=true

In particular, I will suggest that the high levels of acetylcholine that are present during active waking might set the appropriate dynamics for encoding new information in the hippocampus, by partially suppressing excitatory feedback connections and so facilitating encoding without interference from previously stored information. By contrast, the lower levels of acetylcholine that are present during quiet waking and slow-wave sleep might release this suppression and thereby allow a stronger spread of activity within the hippocampus itself and from the hippocampus to the entorhinal cortex, thus facilitating the process of consolidation of separate memory traces.

It looks like he's describing the two-stage memory consolidation process.


The study you referenced is like a meta-analysis (and very convoluted.) But yeah, it looks like low levels of Ach during SWS is crucial for declarative memory consolidation (semantics, basic math etc.) It does not affect procedural memory h/e (so you're not going to forget how to type/write or play chess it seems.) Still, since most of our higher procedural knowledge is based on simple axioms, it seems crucial not to interfere with dec memory consolidation. I'd like to know if anyone has any thoughts on this. Gladly I've only been dosing choline before sleep for like a week. These lucid dreams were quite something (very elucidative of my life actually) but I can definitely go without them if I that will help me graduate.

So my preliminary conclusion is that: Ach is crucial for 1st stage of memory encoding as it suppresses the "bursts" from the hypothalamus while low levels are needed during SWS to facilitate this feedback back to neocortex for the 2nd (and final?) consolidation process. Hm. So I guess choline at night is not the best way to go after all. So if you can afford the attenuation (you're not falling asleep after choline dosing) of "excitatory feedback connections" then that would satisfy the ideal conditions for two-stage memory encoding process, given that you also do not supplement choline before bed. In fact, it seems it would make most sense taking Choline in the morning since post-lunch tiredness is virtually universal and taking before bed would disrupt one of the consolidation processes. (Ha! "eggs for breakfast" now really makes sense.)

glad you found the studies. just to clarify, choline is excitatory. it is highest in the morning. the researcher you quoted is saying that after being excited all day, from the choline, the brain gets tired, and goes to sleep. that is when the attenuation happens. i think you are thinking that choline is the thing that causes the attenuation. it might set it up for nighttime, but it doesn't immediately cause it.

this is why i thought it strange that you said it makes you sleepy. i think barring a chemical imbalance or some sort of sleep phase confusion, or a bad product, choline should not make you sleepy. eggs for breakfast.

[alecnevsky]

^ Here are the references:

Acetylcholine is a potent excitatory neurotransmitter, crucial for cognition and the control of alertness and arousal. Vigilance-specific recordings of the electroencephalogram (EEG) potently reflect thalamo-cortical and brainstem-cortical cholinergic activity that drives theta rhythms and task-specific cortical (de-synchronisation.)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21238497

Among these, noradrenaline-, histamine- and orexin-containing neurons fire during waking with behavioral arousal, decrease firing during slow-wave sleep (SWS) and cease firing during paradoxical sleep (PS), which is also known as rapid-eye-movement sleep. By contrast, acetylcholine (ACh)-containing neurons discharge during waking, decrease firing during SWS and fire at high rates during PS in association with fast cortical activity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16183137

Interesting that they say "orexin-containing neurons cease firing during PS" since Armodafinil/Modafinil affects those neurons in the hypothalamus and the only sleep I've been able to get on Armo is quasi-REM and definitely not SWS.

But yeah bottom line seems to be that of Ach being excitatory indeed. I had always assumed it was the choline that made me tired from the thick egg sandwhiches in the morning, but it must have been the gluten or the wheat or some other variable.

[alecnevsky]

Alright this is really strange, but I took about 5g of Piracetam with ~500mg Choline Bitartrate this morning and had least excitatory symptoms of all nootropics I've ever tried. (Gladly it's the weekend.) After literally struggling to pronounce words for a few hours and feeling slow, foggy and kind of emotionally dull (leaning toward depression,) I passed out for ~4 hrs and slept till this evening. I even took 500mg glutamate and 350mg n-acetyl-tyrosine just before finally crashing to no avail. If Ach is excitatory, then it must be the combination of piracetam and choline bitartrate that induces these symptoms. Other than that it must be an issue of choline bitartrate vs GPC choline as I never experienced anything similar with Alpha GPC.

Just for notes, I was also on my daily regimen of: CILTEP, green tea extract, ALCAR, lion's mane, cordyceps, vit c, 540mg of potassium gluconate, gingko, ginseng, dha.
I have no idea what is going on but I've been taking 5g Piracetam in the morning (at least for 2 weeks) with everything else mentioned above without Choline bitartrate and never felt these sedative/sleepy effects.

Also this is one of the few days that I did not have any caffeine via black tea. But, there is at least 11% of caffeine in green tea extract as I understand and I take about 2000mg per day. So I'm thinking it probably was not a caffeine crash.

Edited by alecnevsky, 18 February 2013 - 01:16 AM.

[Heh]

Alright this is really strange, but I took about 5g of Piracetam with ~500mg Choline Bitartrate this morning and had least excitatory symptoms of all nootropics I've ever tried. (Gladly it's the weekend.) After literally struggling to pronounce words for a few hours and feeling slow, foggy and kind of emotionally dull (leaning toward depression,) I passed out for ~4 hrs and slept till this evening. I even took 500mg glutamate and 350mg n-acetyl-tyrosine just before finally crashing to no avail. If Ach is excitatory, then it must be the combination of piracetam and choline bitartrate that induces these symptoms. Other than that it must be an issue of choline bitartrate vs GPC choline as I never experienced anything similar with Alpha GPC.

Just for notes, I was also on my daily regimen of: CILTEP, green tea extract, ALCAR, lion's mane, cordyceps, vit c, 540mg of potassium gluconate, gingko, ginseng, dha.
I have no idea what is going on but I've been taking 5g Piracetam in the morning (at least for 2 weeks) with everything else mentioned above without Choline bitartrate and never felt these sedative/sleepy effects.

Also this is one of the few days that I did not have any caffeine via black tea. But, there is at least 11% of caffeine in green tea extract as I understand and I take about 2000mg per day. So I'm thinking it probably was not a caffeine crash.

Most of what I've read says choline and the racetams should be taken hours apart. Usually, choline at night, then the racetams in the morning.

Edited by Joel, 18 February 2013 - 11:33 AM.

[alecnevsky]

^ That was the notion I had before reading the studies above. It seems it's a matter of prioritizing piracetam efficacy over memory consolidation in general. Personally, I wouldn't want to interfere with any/all LTM consolidation processes (or SWS) so I decided to add 500mg glutamate + 350 mg n-acetyl-tyrosine to my morning dose of 5g pir + 550mg choline etc. Feels just great today so it must have worked.

Edit: something tells me I should really control for the black tea. (I did not have it yesterday, but today.) But is 40-60mg caffeine really a variable when taking so much piracetam etc.

Edited by alecnevsky, 18 February 2013 - 09:55 PM.

[emckai]

Thanks for all the information!
I'll be getting piracetam soon and hopefully i'll be able to get the full effect of it.

[tea76]

Where can one get hold of glutamate? Is this a pure supplement you are taking or do I find it in adequate doses in certain foodstuffs?

[Mr. Pink]

Alright this is really strange, but I took about 5g of Piracetam with ~500mg Choline Bitartrate this morning and had least excitatory symptoms of all nootropics I've ever tried. (Gladly it's the weekend.) After literally struggling to pronounce words for a few hours and feeling slow, foggy and kind of emotionally dull (leaning toward depression,) I passed out for ~4 hrs and slept till this evening. I even took 500mg glutamate and 350mg n-acetyl-tyrosine just before finally crashing to no avail. If Ach is excitatory, then it must be the combination of piracetam and choline bitartrate that induces these symptoms. Other than that it must be an issue of choline bitartrate vs GPC choline as I never experienced anything similar with Alpha GPC.

Just for notes, I was also on my daily regimen of: CILTEP, green tea extract, ALCAR, lion's mane, cordyceps, vit c, 540mg of potassium gluconate, gingko, ginseng, dha.
I have no idea what is going on but I've been taking 5g Piracetam in the morning (at least for 2 weeks) with everything else mentioned above without Choline bitartrate and never felt these sedative/sleepy effects.

Also this is one of the few days that I did not have any caffeine via black tea. But, there is at least 11% of caffeine in green tea extract as I understand and I take about 2000mg per day. So I'm thinking it probably was not a caffeine crash.

could be adrenal fatigue? just a guess if you're doing ciltep daily along with other stuff that stresses adrenal glands. then you just get more and more tired from things that should make you alert