469 replies to this topic

[Brundle99]

Alright this is really strange, but I took about 5g of Piracetam with ~500mg Choline Bitartrate this morning and had least excitatory symptoms of all nootropics I've ever tried. (Gladly it's the weekend.) After literally struggling to pronounce words for a few hours and feeling slow, foggy and kind of emotionally dull (leaning toward depression,) I passed out for ~4 hrs and slept till this evening. I even took 500mg glutamate and 350mg n-acetyl-tyrosine just before finally crashing to no avail. If Ach is excitatory, then it must be the combination of piracetam and choline bitartrate that induces these symptoms. Other than that it must be an issue of choline bitartrate vs GPC choline as I never experienced anything similar with Alpha GPC.

Just for notes, I was also on my daily regimen of: CILTEP, green tea extract, ALCAR, lion's mane, cordyceps, vit c, 540mg of potassium gluconate, gingko, ginseng, dha.
I have no idea what is going on but I've been taking 5g Piracetam in the morning (at least for 2 weeks) with everything else mentioned above without Choline bitartrate and never felt these sedative/sleepy effects.

Also this is one of the few days that I did not have any caffeine via black tea. But, there is at least 11% of caffeine in green tea extract as I understand and I take about 2000mg per day. So I'm thinking it probably was not a caffeine crash.

Hi there

If you have been taking 5g for a few weeks and have noticed no benefits, you are either taking too high a dose or too low, Piracetam has a bell shaped curve which means that everyone has a different sweet spot, you need to start at the lower end at about 800mg, and if after 2 weeks you notice nothing then again you move up to 1g and so on until you notice something, there isn't really a buzz associated with it but the most common effect is virbal fluency.

The reason I say 2 weeks at a minimun at one dose is because Piracetam builds up with continuous use.

Also take Choline at different time to piracetam otherwise fatigue sets in with piracetam and its horrible.
(I tend to pre-load on choline a few hours before taking piracetam.)

look on Longecity for a user called tubemode12, he has the best shedule/guide for taking this.

[alecnevsky]

Alright this is really strange, but I took about 5g of Piracetam with ~500mg Choline Bitartrate this morning and had least excitatory symptoms of all nootropics I've ever tried. (Gladly it's the weekend.) After literally struggling to pronounce words for a few hours and feeling slow, foggy and kind of emotionally dull (leaning toward depression,) I passed out for ~4 hrs and slept till this evening. I even took 500mg glutamate and 350mg n-acetyl-tyrosine just before finally crashing to no avail. If Ach is excitatory, then it must be the combination of piracetam and choline bitartrate that induces these symptoms. Other than that it must be an issue of choline bitartrate vs GPC choline as I never experienced anything similar with Alpha GPC.

Just for notes, I was also on my daily regimen of: CILTEP, green tea extract, ALCAR, lion's mane, cordyceps, vit c, 540mg of potassium gluconate, gingko, ginseng, dha.
I have no idea what is going on but I've been taking 5g Piracetam in the morning (at least for 2 weeks) with everything else mentioned above without Choline bitartrate and never felt these sedative/sleepy effects.

Also this is one of the few days that I did not have any caffeine via black tea. But, there is at least 11% of caffeine in green tea extract as I understand and I take about 2000mg per day. So I'm thinking it probably was not a caffeine crash.

could be adrenal fatigue? just a guess if you're doing ciltep daily along with other stuff that stresses adrenal glands. then you just get more and more tired from things that should make you alert

Does CILTEP work on adrenals? How? I've been taking it for ~4 months with daily tea/coffee and green tea extract. The episode I had was unique as I never had same drowsiness on Pir + Choline. I think it may have been the quality of my choline i.e., bitartrate. If I dose any more than 550mgs of bitartrate I feel exactly like described. 550mg is gold though. I still went ahead and ordered GPC just b/c I can't take the risk. Verbal fluency is great (indiscriminate information/data gathering is great too) but when I dose Piracetam, I feel more manic than without it and mania does not afford good analysis. To see what Pir does on a more obvious scale, I megadosed 8g (which is just doubling normal dose) and observed that I completely lost track of what's important and could not identify on meaningful content in my work. Maybe I'll try Pir again at <4.8g/dose but the effects were either subtle at 4.8g or manic at 8gs.

Edited by alecnevsky, 15 March 2013 - 06:38 PM.

[peakplasma]

Does CILTEP work on adrenals? How?

Both directly and indirectly.

cAMP is a secondary messanger which relays messages for adrenaline since adrenaline cannot pass through the cell membrane. So a PDE inhibitor allows the excitatory signals from adrenaline to persist longer.

Also, Forskolin increases cAMP which is involved in the biosynthesis and regulation of adrenaline.

[alecnevsky]

Alright this is really strange, but I took about 5g of Piracetam with ~500mg Choline Bitartrate this morning and had least excitatory symptoms of all nootropics I've ever tried. (Gladly it's the weekend.) After literally struggling to pronounce words for a few hours and feeling slow, foggy and kind of emotionally dull (leaning toward depression,) I passed out for ~4 hrs and slept till this evening. I even took 500mg glutamate and 350mg n-acetyl-tyrosine just before finally crashing to no avail. If Ach is excitatory, then it must be the combination of piracetam and choline bitartrate that induces these symptoms. Other than that it must be an issue of choline bitartrate vs GPC choline as I never experienced anything similar with Alpha GPC.

Just for notes, I was also on my daily regimen of: CILTEP, green tea extract, ALCAR, lion's mane, cordyceps, vit c, 540mg of potassium gluconate, gingko, ginseng, dha.
I have no idea what is going on but I've been taking 5g Piracetam in the morning (at least for 2 weeks) with everything else mentioned above without Choline bitartrate and never felt these sedative/sleepy effects.

Also this is one of the few days that I did not have any caffeine via black tea. But, there is at least 11% of caffeine in green tea extract as I understand and I take about 2000mg per day. So I'm thinking it probably was not a caffeine crash.

could be adrenal fatigue? just a guess if you're doing ciltep daily along with other stuff that stresses adrenal glands. then you just get more and more tired from things that should make you alert

There is definitely something to this. Thank you and peakplasma for the explanation.

Come to think of it I never cycled CILTEP. I am going to remove it from my daily stack and leave it for busy nights (less armo.) This could explain why I feel burnt out and don't respond as well to stress as I used to. Fucking a.

How often do you guys take it?

[Mr. Pink]

Alright this is really strange, but I took about 5g of Piracetam with ~500mg Choline Bitartrate this morning and had least excitatory symptoms of all nootropics I've ever tried. (Gladly it's the weekend.) After literally struggling to pronounce words for a few hours and feeling slow, foggy and kind of emotionally dull (leaning toward depression,) I passed out for ~4 hrs and slept till this evening. I even took 500mg glutamate and 350mg n-acetyl-tyrosine just before finally crashing to no avail. If Ach is excitatory, then it must be the combination of piracetam and choline bitartrate that induces these symptoms. Other than that it must be an issue of choline bitartrate vs GPC choline as I never experienced anything similar with Alpha GPC.

Just for notes, I was also on my daily regimen of: CILTEP, green tea extract, ALCAR, lion's mane, cordyceps, vit c, 540mg of potassium gluconate, gingko, ginseng, dha.
I have no idea what is going on but I've been taking 5g Piracetam in the morning (at least for 2 weeks) with everything else mentioned above without Choline bitartrate and never felt these sedative/sleepy effects.

Also this is one of the few days that I did not have any caffeine via black tea. But, there is at least 11% of caffeine in green tea extract as I understand and I take about 2000mg per day. So I'm thinking it probably was not a caffeine crash.

could be adrenal fatigue? just a guess if you're doing ciltep daily along with other stuff that stresses adrenal glands. then you just get more and more tired from things that should make you alert

There is definitely something to this. Thank you and peakplasma for the explanation.

Come to think of it I never cycled CILTEP. I am going to remove it from my daily stack and leave it for busy nights (less armo.) This could explain why I feel burnt out and don't respond as well to stress as I used to. Fucking a.

How often do you guys take it?

no problem, also wanted to add that if you're taking caffeine as part of the stack (or any other stims for that matter) that can contribute to adrenal fatigue over time. obviously this varies from person to person, but combo of that with other stims may make it happen faster.

in the fall i was taking ciltep about 4 times a week. now i take it once or twice a week as needed.

[peakplasma]

There is definitely something to this. Thank you and peakplasma for the explanation.

Come to think of it I never cycled CILTEP. I am going to remove it from my daily stack and leave it for busy nights (less armo.) This could explain why I feel burnt out and don't respond as well to stress as I used to. Fucking a.

How often do you guys take it?

I take it daily - but without any adverse effects yet.

The more major concern for me is the cAMP-induced increases in Glucagon i.e. high blood sugar, insulin increase.

I'm not sure what the full implications of this are so if someone with a better understanding can help me assess the risks I would be appreciative.

[tea76]

look on Longecity for a user called tubemode12, he has the best shedule/guide for taking this.

There's a user on Longecity named Tubemode, but I can't find the post(s) you are referring to. Know where we can find it?

[Brundle99]

look on Longecity for a user called tubemode12, he has the best shedule/guide for taking this.

There's a user on Longecity named Tubemode, but I can't find the post(s) you are referring to. Know where we can find it?

Yes its at: http://forum.bodybui...38329243&page=2

It is quoted right at the top of that page.

Hope this helps!

Also have a strong coffee 1 hour after taking Piracetam...it kicks things up a notch!.

[Smiley]

Hi,

this is my first post, so i order you to welcome me! :D
(Also im german, so sorry for grammatical errors etc.)

So, to get serious:
I just felt anxiety overwhelming me ... like this feeling where u feel a rush coming, as if u are about to get unconscious. Mainly because of imagined outcomes of my following problem:
Im taking Piracetams about a week now. I noticed the buildup of the feeling of some sort of dizzyness. Very much like if u have a cold and fever, but im healthy to that point. So, if im turning my head, it feels like beeing confused about whats actually turning - as if u are sitting in a train that stands beneath a train, and the other train is slowly accelerating, so u think that ur train is, but its not. Its actually pretty much like this. Less like a fever-dizzyness.

The anxiety could just be imagined, im pretty sure, also the resulting feeling i had. But i would like to know if this dizzyness is a "normal" sideeffect, or if i should rather stop taking it. (Wich is bad, monetarily, cause i have like 450g left.)

Im dosing the following:
2 times a day ~4,8grams. (Given the fact that i only have a scale that can messure full grams, i just put as much Piracetam in a glas till it suddenly hits the 5grams and then i take a bit back. So im pretty sure its about 4,8 - 5,0g im taking and i think its accurate enough.)
I also take like two pills of DMAE 351mg a day. Usually at the same time im taking "da P".

Im also pretty sure i used "im pretty sure" too much, so sorry about that.
MfG

EDIT: I just realized that i am unable to determing a grammatical error in a language i dont really know ... so please make me aware of it.

Edited by Smiley, 24 January 2014 - 10:45 PM.

[FelixTheCat]

I had a very similar experience. So I stopped taking most supplements all together.

Recently however I started to drastically increase the quality of my diet.

My recommendation would be this, REDUCE the amount of Piracetam you are taking, and cut out the DMAE.

I've started taking my ~1 g of Piracetam in the morning with Bulletproof Coffee (www.bulletproofexec.com) and have noticed some EXTREMELY positive effects.

I think that taking that much overloads your brain.

Hopefully this helps.

[Smiley]

Well, its is usually advised to take 4,8g, as i read. Fewer or more will have no effects, im told.
Also i think its is the so called "Brain fog", thus a reason for it could be not enough Choline/DMAE, IM TOLD.

Im so much told ... so tell me more.

[FelixTheCat]

I know what is recommended because I tried the exact same thing and got the exact same results. What I'm letting you know is that when I added a significant amount of healthy fats (coconut oil and grass fed butter) with a clean natural caffeine source, and reduced my dosage to about 1 gram I achieved the desired goal.

[Smiley]

Ah, ok. I just bought fishy oil online. Because i read this thread. So maybe it will work. I also reduce the amount temp. to about 2g. For science.

[Smiley]

So, upon farter investigation of this Thread, i found that some ppl have similar problems. Also it seems the solution is to add more stuff.
So my plan will be the following, guided by this website (http://www.neurobrai...k-for-some.html) and what i read in this thread:

Piracetam: Still 4800mg.
Pregnenolone: 60mg (or half of that, if i can half the pill.) That helps against adrenal fatigue/drainage... that stuff that causes my problem, maybe, u know.
ALCAR: 750mg
Alpha GPC: 300mg (I'll try different doses around 300mg)
Fishy Oil: 1000mg
Calcium: 600mg (Or 1200mg for science)
Vitamin D3: 5µg included in Calcium-pill.

I will also stop taking DMAE, since i bought aGPC (wich was prized similiar for some reason), and because FelixDaCat said so.
Until i get all that expensive shit, i'll try out to take only 4800mg of the big P, without the usual DMAE. (Today i tried to take only ~2-3g, but that doesnt help.)
I also drank milk before or after taking Pira, and the guy says it could block absorption.

Does anyone have any idea WHEN to take all this stuff? At the same time? aGPC an hour after Pira?
Also please advice me if im doing something stupid ... like buying stuff that doesnt help.
Pregnen[cy]olone seems to be the best thing after Piracetamtam.

MfG

[Smiley]

Pseudo-Edit: Ok, i have cancelled the order of Pregnenolone for apparent reasons.

[Godof Smallthings]

Alpha GPC does not agree with me at all, at 300 mg I get neck stiffness and low mood. However, it seems to be working for some others.

Fish oil + piracetam is good.

Eat one or two soft boiled free range eggs in the morning, they are packed with good stuff for your brain, including choline.

Apart from fish oil, I also find piracetam synergizes well with Japanese sencha green tea, and ginkgo biloba. And curcumin.

Edited by Godof Smallthings, 26 January 2014 - 01:24 PM.

[Neal Cullum]

Alpha GPC does not agree with me at all, at 300 mg I get neck stiffness and low mood. However, it seems to be working for some others.

Fish oil + piracetam is good.

Eat one or two soft boiled free range eggs in the morning, they are packed with good stuff for your brain, including choline.

Apart from fish oil, I also find piracetam synergizes well with Japanese sencha green tea, and ginkgo biloba. And curcumin.

What effect do you feel when you take piracetam, sencha, ginkgo and curcumin? I have all these ingredients so i'm curious, what measurements do you take?

[Godof Smallthings]

Piracetam, curcumin and fish oil - clear head, elevated mood. Generally speaking, less piracetam is required. I've tried with doses from 800 mg up to 5 g and I get equal or even better (less crash-like) effects with an 800 mg dose of piracetam when combining it like this. But this is after using piracetam for a few months, stopping for 1.5 months and then starting again, which seemed to improve my response and sensitivity, so I am not sure if it would be different for somebody who is just starting out with piracetam. My curcumin dose is 500 mg in the morning and 500 mg for lunch.

Piracetam, ginkgo, sencha and fish oil - enhanced focus, elevated but more sustained and balanced (guessing that part results from the sencha) mood.

With this combination, 800 mg to 1.2 g of piracetam has worked best. More piracetam can work too but it may elevate the mood a little too much and cause tiredness when the effect wears off.
One pill of ginkgo (I've used different brands but regardless of size/strength, I only take one pill at a time). Currently using Ginkgold and am happy with its effect and potency, but of three previously tried ginkgo brands, 2 worked well, too. One of them was Boot's ginkgo.

Sencha - I brew one large cup and when finished, whether it is loose leaf or tea bags, I top up with new water and drink until there is barely any tea taste left.

Fish oil - 1 to 2 x 1000 mg salmon oil capsules together with the piracetam.

I have not mixed fish oil, curcumin, piracetam, ginkgo and sencha in one go, so I don't know if that would be good or not, but my hunch is that it is better not to go with the entire kitchen sink approach but rather try out 1 + 1 combinations first, gauge the effect and then when you've tried those, add a 3rd one. Easier to see what is doing what that way.

[Godof Smallthings]

One thing to watch out for is the blood thinning/anti coagulation effect that comes from many of these herbs and which may be excessive in some cases. If you bleed easily, proceed with caution, and if you are going to have an operation, stop taking curcumin, fish oil and ginkgo a few days in advance, maybe even piracetam. Obviously you should let your doctor know in advance what you are taking.

[FunkOdyssey]

The l-glutamic acid / glutamate fears in this thread are way overblown IMO.  I became interested in glutamic acid because it is so health promoting from a gut perspective.  It is a primary oxidative fuel of the enterocytes lining the small intestine and is used to produce glutathione by these cells, among many other functions. It is ubiquitous in food and your gut is expecting to receive a steady supply of it (depending on it may be more accurate).  Only a small fraction of ingested glutamate reaches circulation because the vast majority is metabolized directly in the gut lining.

 

The safety of glutamate supplementation in infants (!!) has already been demonstrated -- research is now turning to the potential therapeutic benefits for babies with digestive problems:

 

Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 Sep;90(3):850S-856S. doi: 10.3945/ajcn.2009.27462Y. Epub 2009 Jul 8.

Metabolic fate and function of dietary glutamate in the gut.

Burrin DG¹, Stoll B.

Author information

Abstract

Glutamate is a main constituent of dietary protein and is also consumed in many prepared foods as an additive in the form of monosodium glutamate. Evidence from human and animal studies indicates that glutamate is a major oxidative fuel for the gut and that dietary glutamate is extensively metabolized in first pass by the intestine. Glutamate also is an important precursor for bioactive molecules, including glutathione, and functions as a key neurotransmitter. The dominant role of glutamate as an oxidative fuel may have therapeutic potential for improving function of the infant gut, which exhibits a high rate of epithelial cell turnover. Our recent studies in infant pigs show that when glutamate is fed at higher (4-fold) than normal dietary quantities, most glutamate molecules are either oxidized or metabolized by the mucosa into other nonessential amino acids. Glutamate is not considered to be a dietary essential, but recent studies suggest that the level of glutamate in the diet can affect the oxidation of some essential amino acids, namely leucine. Given that substantial oxidation of leucine occurs in the gut, ongoing studies are investigating whether dietary glutamate affects the oxidation of leucine in the intestinal epithelial cells. Our studies also suggest that at high dietary intakes, free glutamate may be absorbed by the stomach as well as the small intestine, thus implicating the gastric mucosa in the metabolism of dietary glutamate. Glutamate is a key excitatory amino acid, and metabolism and neural sensing of dietary glutamate in the developing gastric mucosa, which is poorly developed in premature infants, may play a functional role in gastric emptying. These and other recent reports raise the question as to the metabolic role of glutamate in gastric function. The physiologic significance of glutamate as an oxidative fuel and its potential role in gastric function during infancy are discussed.

CLINICAL APPLICATION IN INFANTS

Premature infants frequently present with significant gastroduodenal motor dysfunction, which is manifest clinically as feeding intolerance resulting from delayed suck-swallow coordination, gastroesophageal reflux, and delayed gastric emptying (16). The consequence of feeding intolerance in premature infants is prolonged use of parenteral nutrition, delayed time to achieve full enteral feeding, increased morbidity and risk of infection, and prolonged hospitalization. Despite this clinical problem, the neuroendocrine function of the developing gut is poorly understood. However, recent findings showing that luminal glutamate activates gastric contractile activity may offer a therapeutic approach to stimulate gastroduodenal motor activity and reduce feeding intolerance in premature infants. A recent study in premature infants showed that acute feedings of supplemental glutamate at 2- and 4-fold higher than normal did not increase the circulating plasma glutamate concentration (49). Thus, the available evidence indicates that supplemental glutamate is well tolerated and safe in premature infants. (Other articles in this supplement to the Journal include references 66–94.)