469 replies to this topic

[Hyperspace21]

Well, I am glad I've found this thread. Whilst it is true anyone can be a dog on the internet, it is also true that that "anyone" could also be a kind and helpful junior drug researcher.

None of your information seems dangerous in anyway, and the efficiacy tests, choline tapering and the calcium suggestions seem to make a lot of sense, so I will take you as you claim to be and thank you.

Now on to a question;

I consume the following.
80grams of [complete] protein in the morning (salmon)
40 grams of [complete] protein in the afternoon. (chicken eggs)

I get 1000mg of calcium from my diet. Do I need to supplement this? I'm alergic to milk and am at RDA or above for most other vitamins/minerals.

I used to have 8000mg of piracetam a morning and 4000 in the afternoon, but I stopped after the several grams of choline I mistakenly thought I needed was making me too depressed.

Thanks, I really appreciate your support.

Your calcium intake seems good but you could supplement an additional 500mg tablet to enhance the effects. Your glutamate consumption is also good (protein), you could try taking whey protein, whey protein isolate or a few milligrams of MSG (10mg -100mg, whatever suits you best you) to increase the chances of experiencing consistent effects.

Choline should be taken as per your need, don't forget that eggs,soy,liver, meat,pulses,rice all contain choline so you should count that in to your daily choline intake, some people don't need to supplement choline because they get enough of it from their diet.

Try 4.8 grams of piracetam and some magnesium if you experience headaches.

[Hyperspace21]

I am equally glad this post exists.
FYI, I had to do some checking around, but I found that Ac'cent Flavor Enhancer is 100% MSG, and can be found on the spice aisle at the local grocery store for about five bucks.
I am curious as to the extent your study will go-will you be including other things like Noopept, or centrophenoxine? Does the input regarding MSG, calcium, etc... Also apply to Noopept?

We will soon start experiments on more potent substances like aniracetam,oxiracetam,noopept,nefiracetam,etc. and also try and cover other nootropics.

As for the MSG and calcium tests; it should work for other racetams too including noopept (which is a derived from the racetam family) since they have the same mechanism of action as piracetam. We are currently doing various chemical tests to see how piracetam and other racetams break down in the body and how they are utilized in the brain.

When the results for these tests come, then I can 100% guarantee that there will be particular substances which will be responsible for the effects of racetams on the brain and thus, can be accurately supplemented if their is a deficiency.

[Hyperspace21]

I am equally glad this post exists.
FYI, I had to do some checking around, but I found that Ac'cent Flavor Enhancer is 100% MSG, and can be found on the spice aisle at the local grocery store for about five bucks.
I am curious as to the extent your study will go-will you be including other things like Noopept, or centrophenoxine? Does the input regarding MSG, calcium, etc... Also apply to Noopept?

We will soon start experiments on more potent substances like aniracetam,oxiracetam,noopept,nefiracetam,etc. and also try and cover other nootropics.

As for the MSG and calcium tests; it should work for other racetams too including noopept (which is a derived from the racetam family) since they have the same mechanism of action as piracetam. We are currently doing various chemical tests to see how piracetam and other racetams break down in the body and how they are utilized in the brain.

When the results for these tests come; I can 100% guarantee that there will be particular substances which will be responsible for the effects of racetams on the brain and thus, can be accurately supplemented if their is a deficiency.

[Gamerzneed]

Is L-glutamic acid almost the same thing as Monosodium glutamate (MSG) in terms of effects and potency/strength?

[Introspecta]

I don''t get it. Some people think you are talking about L-glutamine but you are talking about L-glutamate acid? Which are two different things?

[Hyperspace21]

I don''t get it. Some people think you are talking about L-glutamine but you are talking about L-glutamate acid? Which are two different things?

L-Glutamate acid gets converted to L-Glutamine. Either way your body ends up with the same substance.

[Introspecta]

OK thanks, I actually looked around and found that same answer.

[Hyperspace21]

Is L-glutamic acid almost the same thing as Monosodium glutamate (MSG) in terms of effects and potency/strength?

They are practically equal in terms of potency, but since MSG is the crystalline sodium salt of glutamic acid; it requires more processing for the body to convert it to glutamine (the end product that is used by the NMDA receptors).

Also MSG has a bit more 'kick' in taste due to the sodium, which also correlates to slightly higher neuron excitement states (which can be dangerous in some instances).

So overall, it is preferable to consume small quantities (10mg -100mg) of glutamic acid over MSG.

[JChief]

Very interesting thread... I will try taking _CALCIUM with ^PIRACETAM just to see what she does!

[ScienceGuy]

It is preferable to consume small quantities (10mg -100mg) of glutamic acid over MSG.

The SODIUM SALT of GLUTAMIC ACID = MONOSODIUM GLUTAMATE (MSG)

Therefore, the above statement makes no sense, since MSG = GLUTAMIC ACID

EDIT: It is important to differentiate between FREE FORM L-GLUTAMIC ACID and the SODIUM SALT of L-GLUTAMIC ACID (= MSG)

Please kindly confirm, specifically what substance was administered to GROUPS 2 and 3 within your study?

Edited by ScienceGuy, 18 February 2012 - 08:30 PM.

[Hyperspace21]

It is preferable to consume small quantities (10mg -100mg) of glutamic acid over MSG.

The SODIUM SALT of GLUTAMIC ACID = MONOSODIUM GLUTAMATE (MSG)

Therefore, the above statement makes no sense, since MSG = GLUTAMIC ACID

Please kindly confirm, specifically what substance was administered to GROUPS 2 and 3 within your study?

To finally confirm the glutamate, glutamine,MSG and glutamic acid confusion; I'm here with an answer.

We used L-Glutamate for our studies as it was safe, more cost effective and easily available (to us).

glutamates are the carboxylate anions and salts of glutamic acid (which is a naturally occurring amino acid). Hence, the sodium salt of glutamic acid is MSG which is a GLUTAMATE.

You've accidentally misinterpreted the above data;

The data doesn't say that MSG is a Glutamic Acid. What it actually says is that MSG is equally potent (which means 'as effective as') glutamic acid since they are both broken down toGLUTAMINE, which is the final product that is used by your brain.

So what you can take away from this is that ;
GLUTAMATE (MSG) Gets CONVERTED to GLUTAMINE

and

GLUTAMIC ACID IS ALSO CONVERTED To GLUTAMINE.

EXPLANATIONS FOR EACH SUBSTANCE:

MSG (Mono-sodium Glutamate) :- This is the sodium salt of a glutamic acid. Which means Glutamic Acid + Sodium = MSG (the equational representation is non-academic and cannot be used for scientific purposes, it is only to demonstrate the basic structure of GLUTAMATES).

GLUTAMIC ACID :- This is a naturally occurring, non-essential amino acid which is the MAIN BODY OF A GLUTAMATE MOLECULE without the sodium cation or carboxylic anion.. When a CARBOXYLIC ANION Or SODIUM (Na⁺) CATION is attached to the glutamic Acid then it becomes Glutamate.

GLUTAMINE :- This an Amino Acid which is derived from GLUTAMATES OR GLUTAMIC ACID by replacing the sodium cation with an amine functional group (hetero-compound / a compund that always exhibits the same property) in a GLUTAMATE or by replacing the hydroxyl side-chain with an amine functional group in GLUTAMIC ACID; which gives you GLUTAMINE. GLUTAMINE is the second most important energy source after glucose (which is the first). GLUTAMINE helps in synthesing protein for muscle fibers and various other tissues.

BOTH GLUTAMTES AND GLUTAMIC ACID WILL BE BROKEN DOWN/SIMPLIFIED TO GLUTAMINE BY YOUR BODY.

SO, You can consume/supplement ANY of the 3 Substances mentioned since in the end, they will all be broken down into to GLUTAMINE anyways.

REGARDING THE AMOUNT OF GLUTAMATE/GLUTAMINE/GLUTAMIC ACID THAT IS TO BE CONSUMED; IT IS BETWEEN 10mg - 100mg (max is 500mg; which is for people who are insensitive to the mentioned substances.) , YOU HAVE TO EXPERIMENT AND SEE WHAT AMOUNT IS RIGHT FOR YOU.

Hope this clears all doubts regarding glutamate/glutamine/glutamic acid.

Feel free to ask if you still have a doubt.

[Introspecta]

I'm under the impression our world gets too much MSG through our food anyway so this all somewhat confuses me.

[ScienceGuy]

I'm under the impression our world gets too much MSG through our food anyway so this all somewhat confuses me.

The advice would be to AVOID ALL DIETARY MSG (which is always way too much)

EDIT: Hyperspace has been shown to be a fraud which would indicate that his study is also fake; as such I recommend that everyone completely ignore all information contained within all Hyperspace's study reports and posts, and do NOT take any additional L-GLUTAMIC ACID or GLUTAMATE. The dosage L-GLUTAMIC ACID / GLUTAMATE recommended by Hyperspace was 10 - 100mg; and whilst this would not in any regard likely to be harmful to one's health, L-GLUTAMIC ACID and GLUTAMATE are EXCITOTOXINS and hence supplementing with them is NOT recommended.

Edited by ScienceGuy, 17 March 2012 - 01:50 PM.

[ScienceGuy]

To finally confirm the glutamate, glutamine,MSG and glutamic acid confusion; I'm here with an answer.

We used L-Glutamate for our studies as it was safe, more cost effective and easily available (to us).

glutamates are the carboxylate anions and salts of glutamic acid (which is a naturally occurring amino acid). Hence, the sodium salt of glutamic acid is MSG which is a GLUTAMATE...

BOTH GLUTAMTES AND GLUTAMIC ACID WILL BE BROKEN DOWN/SIMPLIFIED TO GLUTAMINE BY YOUR BODY.

SO, You can consume/supplement ANY of the 3 Substances mentioned since in the end, they will all be broken down into to GLUTAMINE anyways.

REGARDING THE AMOUNT OF GLUTAMATE/GLUTAMINE/GLUTAMIC ACID THAT IS TO BE CONSUMED; IT IS BETWEEN 10mg - 100mg

Hope this clears all doubts regarding glutamate/glutamine/glutamic acid.

CLEAR AS MUD

However, I should point out that GLUTAMATE / GLUTAMIC ACID supplementation does in fact have DIFFERING physiological effects to GLUTAMINE supplementation... just consider the significantly differential effects of 5 grams MSG versus 5 grams L-GLUTAMINE!

EDIT: I recommend against supplementing with any L-GLUTAMIC ACID / GLUTAMATE for reasons specified above

Edited by ScienceGuy, 17 March 2012 - 02:08 PM.

[capctr]

So I guess my only question (at the moment)is: What is the point of your efforts to design the perfect nootropic, if you have no plans to market it? I am among those who have been impressed with what you have been reporting, and who hopes to maximize the benefits that can be derived from using Piracetam (and Noopept and centrophenoxine-when my order finally shows up) by attempting to utilize what I am able to understand from your posts. Are you engaged in this study simply as a school project, or is there more to it? Are you perhaps setting nootropics up under FDA mandates, resulting in Piracetam and it's buddies skyrocket in price, and/or require a prescription to purchase it?

[Namkcalb]

Your calcium intake seems good but you could supplement an additional 500mg tablet to enhance the effects. Your glutamate consumption is also good (protein), you could try taking whey protein, whey protein isolate or a few milligrams of MSG (10mg -100mg, whatever suits you best you) to increase the chances of experiencing consistent effects.

Choline should be taken as per your need, don't forget that eggs,soy,liver, meat,pulses,rice all contain choline so you should count that in to your daily choline intake, some people don't need to supplement choline because they get enough of it from their diet.

Thanks for the information

Out of curiousity, what do you personally think is the upper limit for calcium?

[Hyperspace21]

To finally confirm the glutamate, glutamine,MSG and glutamic acid confusion; I'm here with an answer.

We used L-Glutamate for our studies as it was safe, more cost effective and easily available (to us).

glutamates are the carboxylate anions and salts of glutamic acid (which is a naturally occurring amino acid). Hence, the sodium salt of glutamic acid is MSG which is a GLUTAMATE...

BOTH GLUTAMTES AND GLUTAMIC ACID WILL BE BROKEN DOWN/SIMPLIFIED TO GLUTAMINE BY YOUR BODY.

SO, You can consume/supplement ANY of the 3 Substances mentioned since in the end, they will all be broken down into to GLUTAMINE anyways.

REGARDING THE AMOUNT OF GLUTAMATE/GLUTAMINE/GLUTAMIC ACID THAT IS TO BE CONSUMED; IT IS BETWEEN 10mg - 100mg

Hope this clears all doubts regarding glutamate/glutamine/glutamic acid.

CLEAR AS MUD

Just kidding! PERFECTLY explained!

However, I should point out that GLUTAMATE / GLUTAMIC ACID supplementation does in fact have DIFFERING physiological effects to GLUTAMINE supplementation... just consider the significantly differential effects of 5 grams MSG versus 5 grams L-GLUTAMINE!

As such, since your study used GLUTAMATE / GLUTAMIC ACID (as opposed to GLUTAMINE) I would recommend that individuals should supplement specifically with 10 - 100mg GLUTAMATE / GLUTAMIC ACID and not GLUTAMINE

Glutamates are have a higher risk of excitotoxicity when compared to glutamic acid. So MSG should be consumed in slightly less amounts, when compared to, low amounts of glutamic acid consumption. for example,

A person usually takes 30mg of glutamic acid and soon runs out. He has MSG in his kitchen so he would use 10mg - 20mg of the substance.

GLUTAMINE is like 'high energy glucose'. Fat would be considered as the body's 'nuclear reactor' (due to the high amounts of energy stored in it). The references made, are non-academic and cannot be used for scientific explanation.

That's why too much Glutamine is not good for the body because it'll make you restless. You get Glutamine from your diet too, so 10mg -100mg supplementation would not harm the body. HOWEVER, Glutamine is UTILIZED WAY TOO FAST BY THE BODY so, the effects will be short lived and thus, NOT RECOMMENDED.

Edited by manic_racetam, 07 March 2012 - 07:26 AM.

[ScienceGuy]

HOWEVER, Glutamine is UTILIZED WAY TOO FAST BY THE BODY so, the effects will be short lived and thus, NOT RECOMMENDED.

AGREED

[Hyperspace21]

So I guess my only question (at the moment)is: What is the point of your efforts to design the perfect nootropic, if you have no plans to market it? I am among those who have been impressed with what you have been reporting, and who hopes to maximize the benefits that can be derived from using Piracetam (and Noopept and centrophenoxine-when my order finally shows up) by attempting to utilize what I am able to understand from your posts. Are you engaged in this study simply as a school project, or is there more to it? Are you perhaps setting nootropics up under FDA mandates, resulting in Piracetam and it's buddies skyrocket in price, and/or require a prescription to purchase it?

Personally I hate the FDA. We were researching on substances that reacted with the brain to prevent it from neuron damage. We were also researching on the effects of some drugs that were related to the release of particular chemicals like, dopamine,serotonin,cortisol,melatonin,etc.

That's what lead us to find nootropics.

For our final year project, we decided on the topic; 'Creating a substance that performs multiple positive reactions or has multiple positive effects at the cellular level'. So we set our ultimate goal; 'To create a substance that can cure all or most disorders at the cellular level and up'. Since nootropics were related to this topic; we decided that we would help the nootropics community (and also ask for help if needed) by hosting clinical trials,conducting research and performing chemical tests so more people can benefit from our findings.

We don't plan to market our substance because it is illegal, (since funding was provided by an educational institution). Our main objective is to successfully complete our final year project and then later, build up on our research to help find cures to many diseases. The substance for our final project could very well also be the 'Ultimate Nootropic' but we are not sure yet. So far we have cracked 30% of the components that are required to synthesize the final 'substance'. That is a lot of Progress since our Project is due on April 21st, 2015.

[mindfunk]

Very exciting stuff, do keep us posted!

[Hyperspace21]

Your calcium intake seems good but you could supplement an additional 500mg tablet to enhance the effects. Your glutamate consumption is also good (protein), you could try taking whey protein, whey protein isolate or a few milligrams of MSG (10mg -100mg, whatever suits you best you) to increase the chances of experiencing consistent effects.

Choline should be taken as per your need, don't forget that eggs,soy,liver, meat,pulses,rice all contain choline so you should count that in to your daily choline intake, some people don't need to supplement choline because they get enough of it from their diet.

Thanks for the information

Out of curiousity, what do you personally think is the upper limit for calcium?

It actually depends on your sex and age , but on an average I would say 2000mg tops. The adequate consumption for people under 65 , is, 1000mg -1500mg.

[Hyperspace21]

I'm under the impression our world gets too much MSG through our food anyway so this all somewhat confuses me.

Depends, if you consume more processed and packaged food items then yes you are getting quite a lot of MSG. If you are consuming good, freshly cooked food without any store bought sauces then it is likely that you are hardly consuming any MSG.

[Hyperspace21]

Love your sense of humor. (but if you have any doubts, I'll clear them).

Glutamates are have a higher risk of excitotoxicity when compared to glutamic acid. So MSG should be consumed in slightly less amounts, when compared to, low amounts of glutamic acid consumption. for example,

A person usually takes 30mg of glutamic acid and soon runs out. He has MSG in his kitchen so he would use 10mg - 20mg of the substance.

GLUTAMINE is like 'high energy glucose'. Fat would be considered as the body's 'nuclear reactor' (due to the high amounts of energy stored in it). The references made, are non-academic and cannot be used for scientific explanation.

That's why too much Glutamine is not good for the body because it'll make you restless. You get Glutamine from your diet too, so 10mg -100mg supplementation would not harm the body. HOWEVER, Glutamine is UTILIZED WAY TOO FAST BY THE BODY so, the effects will be short lived and thus, NOT RECOMMENDED.

Please excuse the grammatical error : "Glutamates are have..." does not make sense. I forgot to re-edit the post.

Edited by Hyperspace21, 18 February 2012 - 10:24 AM.

[Introspecta]

So would it be better to supplement with L-glutamic Acid or L-Glutamine even though they create the same thing. You said L-Glutamine is short lived does that mean L-glutamic acid is too? Sorry I'm pretty dumb when it comes to this subject. Also I wanted to add that I don't eat any packaged foods besides protein bars so maybe thats why my piracetam tolerance is so high due to low Glutamic Acid levels. Back when I first started Piracetam I ate alot more microwave crap and I wonder if thats why my Piracetam worked so good in the beginning. That kinda sucks though because it sort of encourages Piracetam users to eat Unhealthy Foods which seems pretty crazy.

[Introspecta]

Also I am not convinced that the headache from Piracetam is caused by Low choline levels because from the first time I took piracetam I got a headache from taking a few extra caps and I really doubt my choline levels were that low right when I first start. It only gave me a headache if I dosed a little too high and I got great results with the proper doses. Also there were many times I experimented and got the headache and tried taking choline which resulted in an even greater headache. I honestly feel its all in peoples head. They think the choline will help the headache so it does. Maybe I'm different I'm just thinking out loud here and am not really sure what the deal is.

[Hyperspace21]

So would it be better to supplement with L-glutamic Acid or L-Glutamine even though they create the same thing. You said L-Glutamine is short lived does that mean L-glutamic acid is too? Sorry I'm pretty dumb when it comes to this subject. Also I wanted to add that I don't eat any packaged foods besides protein bars so maybe thats why my piracetam tolerance is so high due to low Glutamic Acid levels. Back when I first started Piracetam I ate alot more microwave crap and I wonder if thats why my Piracetam worked so good in the beginning. That kinda sucks though because it sort of encourages Piracetam users to eat Unhealthy Foods which seems pretty crazy.

Yes glutamic acid would be better since the body will break it down slowly, hence, glutamine is released in regulated quantities.

No, it does not encourage Piracetam users to eat unhealthy food, because unhealthy foods are loaded with sugars,MSG (in some cases), fat and sodium which result in biological imbalances, that's why they are unhealthy. This just means that it provides the body with tons of energy, some of which is used in the functioning of Piracetam. What this actually conveys is that you should consume enough energy to make sure Piracetam functions properly (in simple terms).

A suggestion would be to consume more creatine,whey protein, or just supplement glutamic acid/glutamate or sugars (not recommended since it can cause diabetes, make you fat and is also used up quickly)

[Introspecta]

I use alot of Whey Protein So Maybe Glutamate isn't my problem. Maybe the Calcium is. Hmm. I will experiment though and report back.

[Hyperspace21]

Also I am not convinced that the headache from Piracetam is caused by Low choline levels because from the first time I took piracetam I got a headache from taking a few extra caps and I really doubt my choline levels were that low right when I first start. It only gave me a headache if I dosed a little too high and I got great results with the proper doses. Also there were many times I experimented and got the headache and tried taking choline which resulted in an even greater headache. I honestly feel its all in peoples head. They think the choline will help the headache so it does. Maybe I'm different I'm just thinking out loud here and am not really sure what the deal is.

TOO MUCH (over 3.5g) choline or TOO Little choline (lower than 100mg) can cause headaches. Choline only works (the synergetic effect) when you've got the right amount of calcium in your brain. Some people don't need to supplement choline because they get enough choline from their diet (which is likely in your case, considering you consume freshly cooked food,meat,poultry,eggs or soy).

It would be helpful to mention the amount of Piracetam and choline you are taking. It would also help if you could mention your daily Calcium intake. (which can be verified if you consume any of the following foods/beverages : Dried Herbs,Yogurt,milk, cheese, Tofu, almonds,sesame seeds, flax seeds, green leafy vegetables, Brazil nuts, walnuts, tea,coffee, or any other Vitamin D rich food (herring) /calcium rich food).

[ScienceGuy]

So would it be better to supplement with L-glutamic Acid or L-Glutamine even though they create the same thing. You said L-Glutamine is short lived does that mean L-glutamic acid is too? Sorry I'm pretty dumb when it comes to this subject. Also I wanted to add that I don't eat any packaged foods besides protein bars so maybe thats why my piracetam tolerance is so high due to low Glutamic Acid levels. Back when I first started Piracetam I ate alot more microwave crap and I wonder if thats why my Piracetam worked so good in the beginning. That kinda sucks though because it sort of encourages Piracetam users to eat Unhealthy Foods which seems pretty crazy.

EDIT: Hyperspace has been shown to be a fraud which would indicate that his study is also fake; as such I recommend that everyone completely ignore all information contained within all Hyperspace's study reports and posts, and do NOT take any additional L-GLUTAMIC ACID or GLUTAMATE. The dosage L-GLUTAMIC ACID / GLUTAMATE recommended by Hyperspace was 10 - 100mg; and whilst this would not in any regard likely to be harmful to one's health, L-GLUTAMIC ACID and GLUTAMATE are EXCITOTOXINS and hence supplementing with them is NOT recommended.

Edited by ScienceGuy, 17 March 2012 - 01:52 PM.

[Introspecta]

I don't think I get any calcium aside from a small amount of cheese and Almond Milk in My tea. I actually mainly just eat sandwhiches, Pasta, Smoothies, bananas, apples, protein bars, and Spinach Salads. That is the core of my diet. The less dairy I eat the more energy I have. I don't supplement with choline for piracetam. Sometimes I take ALCAR at around 1gram. I do have Lecithin but don't take it consistently. There was 1 time where I noticed Choline Bitartrate and Inostil Potentiated the Piracetam but that was short lived. After that, the same results occurred. I may give Choline another shot in the future but not really sure that its worth it due to past experience.