1712 replies to this topic

[sthira]

Certainly you are willing to meet her without full knowledge. We do not have anything close to full knowledge about anything. Even if you found out you liked her enough to marry her, you would be far from knowing her fully. When I became a Christian it was just like this. I was raised in a strong Atheist home and had no faith. There was no God. One night when on the back seat of a bus, in a rain storm I said this prayer. "God , if there is a God and if there is one, I don't have any faith, or perhaps a very very little. I put it in you." I meet God and my life has never been the same. We can argue tell the sun comes up and I love to do it but it comes down to faith. Any one who wants to meet God can with only a little faith. You will have doubts along the way, but you can know and experience God.

I think it's beautiful that you have found God. Honestly, I very much think you've found a precious gem.

And I wish all of us could find God, and I wish that the God we could all find would be a loving God. A God who is beautiful, a God who would not tolerate such vast, pointless suffering. A God who would relieve us of some of that heartbreak you feel. I feel. Our planet is so very precious, yet look at the mess we've made of it.

Since you have found that beautiful God we seek, maybe you could say a prayer for the rest of us who are not so lucky. Maybe you could use some of the divine faith we lack to help relieve a little of the world's suffering. Small things first. I'll bet that everyone here who has searched honestly for God would be more than happy to have your kindness and prayers and in such small ways. Even we who don't know if God exists or not, we who doubt, we who hate God, why not be kind to us with your divine knowledge and power you claim rather than hatefulness you so often display here? Where is your love, Shadowhawk?

I pray to God everyday to God to God to God -- even though -- like many others here have plainly stated -- I've never found any trace of divinity. No answers for me. Silence. God's silence. I don't know if God exists or not -- and my prayers to God find me no closer to faith in God. My prayers to God to help heal the suffering world feel like wasted time and dashed hope. My prayers seem to do nothing for anyone, for anything. My prayers are so constant yet feel so fragile, so fleeting, so very much like uselessness. I even wonder if the act of prayer to the silent God is a mental disease I've somewhere acquired. Yet to offer relief to the suffering of sentient creatures -- help us even in some tiny way, please help, dear God -- this mantra remains my consistent daily prayer. Sometimes I pray all day long -- truthfully, maybe in deep mental sickness -- and sometimes I n every action I take I say to myself let this be my humble prayer to the vast, unimaginably huge God of the universe. The God under my fingernail. Yet still God appears as nothing to me. Deadness.

Since my prayers haven't worked, I'll try your prayers, Shadowhawk, and maybe through your prayers I'll move in closer to the faith you've found. We've nothing to lose by praying, we've no faith, nothing to lose beyond the hope already lost.

I wish I was more eloquent -- and I know some of these words may sound like some silly, cheese-ball bullshit. But I do mean my words, they're not empty and they're not lies, they're uttered with absolute sincerity. So what if they're melodramatic and exaggerated: I search for God with my open and deeply broken heart.

Rumi:

"Dear soul, if you were not friends with the vast nothing inside, why would you always be casting your net into it, and waiting so patiently?"

[shadowhawk]

Well Sthira, I honor your post and understand it perfectly.  It is deeply felt I can tell.  I know it may seem trite to say, I know what you are saying but I have walked through these valleys also.  I will pray for you to be surprised by Joy as I have.  We are all in the same boat.

[The Brain]

God only exists from belief.....

To use your word. Proof.

That there is no proof is proof

[Duchykins]

 

That there is no proof is proof

 

 

No, that's bad logic.  Don't represent atheism with bad logic.  

[The Brain]

It's been 2000 years and nothing, even bad logic seems ok at this point

[platypus]

Since people "meet God" in hurndreds of religions and also outside religion, isn't is possible that this "God" is something innate in our psyches, with no corresponding entity "out there"? 

[Vardarac]

I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me about the nature of prayer. Is it not putting your faith into something, momentarily, to believe that it might be real and that it could help you, and that you can help it? Is it not humbling yourself - lowering yourself - to believe that there is something bigger and more important than you governing the universe, and that your purpose is to serve it? I did both of these things and have experienced a whole lot of nothing in return. My faith, however well-grounded in reason I think it is, now rests in the belief that there are no gods.

[shadowhawk]

Since people "meet God" in hurndreds of religions and also outside religion, isn't is possible that this "God" is something innate in our psyches, with no corresponding entity "out there"? 

 

Desire for something usually means it exists such as a desire for food.  It does not have to be good for yoy or even real food. That there are wrong or partially right answers does not mean there is no answer.
 

[Duchykins]

 

 

 

Desire for something usually means it exists such as a desire for food.
 

 

 

 

Come now.  We're highly imaginative creatures and desire quite a few things that either don't exist or cannot exist.

[shadowhawk]

I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me about the nature of prayer. Is it not putting your faith into something, momentarily, to believe that it might be real and that it could help you, and that you can help it? Is it not humbling yourself - lowering yourself - to believe that there is something bigger and more important than you governing the universe, and that your purpose is to serve it? I did both of these things and have experienced a whole lot of nothing in return. My faith, however well-grounded in reason I think it is, now rests in the belief that there are no gods.

 

You mean your evolved brain which evolved with survivability, not truth in mind.  So your faith (correctly stated) is there is no god.  You complained nothing  happened when you put your faith in God.  That was the dis-qualifier.  What happened when you put your faith in no God?
 

[Vardarac]

I once had faith in the Christian God, but I think that stemmed from what my parents taught me in addition to confirmation bias rather than anything that could unambiguously indicate to me that God exists. When this faith waned, and was eventually supplanted by the belief that there are no gods, nothing really changed other than feeling bad about it for a while, and then eventually accepting it. Trying again to put faith in God produced nothing like the sort of change believers describe - maybe inciting in me a sort of curiosity or a genuine desire to conform to what I think a God might want, or an eagerness to hear from one, but nothing from God. Nothing from any gods. So these feelings, too, faded after a time, and I went back to believing it to be fantasy.

[shadowhawk]

 

 

 

 

Desire for something usually means it exists such as a desire for food.
 

 

 

 

Come now.  We're highly imaginative creatures and desire quite a few things that either don't exist or cannot exist.

 

For the most part things we desire exist.  Even the elements of our imaginations exist.  It is very hard to think of something that has no basis in  reality.  Let me put it in the form of a logical statement.

 

Premise 1: Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.

Premise 2:  But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.

Conclusion:  Therefore there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures, which can satisfy this desire.

This something is what people call “God” and “life with God forever.

 

Edited by shadowhawk, 30 July 2015 - 08:52 PM.

[shadowhawk]

I once had faith in the Christian God, but I think that stemmed from what my parents taught me in addition to confirmation bias rather than anything that could unambiguously indicate to me that God exists. When this faith waned, and was eventually supplanted by the belief that there are no gods, nothing really changed other than feeling bad about it for a while, and then eventually accepting it. Trying again to put faith in God produced nothing like the sort of change believers describe - maybe inciting in me a sort of curiosity or a genuine desire to conform to what I think a God might want, or an eagerness to hear from one, but nothing from God. Nothing from any gods. So these feelings, too, faded after a time, and I went back to believing it to be fantasy.

I had a different experience.  I was raised an Atheist and one night I went out under the stars and yelled out, "God show yourself if you are real."  Nothing.  So I enjoyed the cosmos with all the stars .  I saw nothing.

[Vardarac]

Premise 1: Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.

Premise 2:  But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.

Conclusion:  Therefore there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures, which can satisfy this desire.

This something is what people call “God” and “life with God forever.

 

On what basis can you make the claim in premise 1?

[shadowhawk]

This is not the strongest argument out there but tell me of a desire in us that does not correspond to something real.

 

Premise 1: Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.

[Vardarac]

Sure, you could argue there are flying machines, and there are cars, but that doesn't mean that somewhere out there is a flying car that will fulfill my desire for one. But I agree with the basic premise if all it claims is that in some sense (however vague), there tends to be something real behind those desires.

 

But... If that's all the premise means, then going back to the desire for a flying car, one could also view the desires for eternal life or a relationship with God as nothing more than an exaggeration of the basic desire for the very real concepts of life, human understanding, and companionship.

[shadowhawk]

Sure, you could argue there are flying machines, and there are cars, but that doesn't mean that somewhere out there is a flying car that will fulfill my desire for one. But I agree with the basic premise if all it claims is that in some sense (however vague), there tends to be something real behind those desires.

 

But... If that's all the premise means, then going back to the desire for a flying car, one could also view the desires for eternal life or a relationship with God as nothing more than an exaggeration of the basic desire for the very real concepts of life, human understanding, and companionship.

 

There are machines, even cars which can fly.  Everything in your statement is real and you can desire them.  Even our fantasies find their inspiration in reality.
 

[Vardarac]

Okay, I conceded the premise in my last post. But as I said, the conclusion doesn't follow from the premises since desires can be distortions or exaggerations of real things that are not the ones you identified as being the root.

[shadowhawk]

Two says:

Premise 2:  But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.

Conclusion:  Therefore there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures, which can satisfy this desire.

This something is what people call “God” and “life with God forever.

 

Human beings desire God in overwhelming numbers.  If the things we desire have there basis in reality, then this desire for God is no different.  Desire is created by real things.  Even Atheists cry out to God.  They desire Him.

[Vardarac]

But that desire is a distortion of real principles. Eternal life? A desire for youth and life, for the absence of death - all of which exist, but as far as we know, ephemerally. Communion with God? A desire for peace, for understanding, for purpose, all of which exist, but that can't be confirmed to exist in the ways that have been desired. Much like the flying car, the end result is the application of imagination to real things.

 

Many children want Santa to be real, but that doesn't mean he is. Again, like Duchykins said, the conclusion is invalid because we can apply imagination to real things, and the desires that the existence of a personal, benevolent God might fulfill are actually exaggerations of things that are simple to point out in the real world, without the need for the actual object thought to fulfill them to exist.

[shadowhawk]

But that desire is a distortion of real principles. Eternal life? A desire for youth and life, for the absence of death - all of which exist, but as far as we know, ephemerally. Communion with God? A desire for peace, for understanding, for purpose, all of which exist, but that can't be confirmed to exist in the ways that have been desired. Much like the flying car, the end result is the application of imagination to real things.

 

Many children want Santa to be real, but that doesn't mean he is. Again, like Duchykins said, the conclusion is invalid because we can apply imagination to real things, and the desires that the existence of a personal, benevolent God might fulfill are actually exaggerations of things that are simple to point out in the real world, without the need for the actual object thought to fulfill them to exist.

No the desire is for God, and you will need evidence to say it is a distortion, not blind Atheist faith.  Every thing you mention we desire is real but you don't want to extend this to a desire for God.  By the way Santa was real and I have written a number of Children's stories about Him.

[Dakman]

I bet Old School has met Santa and has photo's of him and had tea with his elves 

[Duchykins]

For the most part things we desire exist.  Even the elements of our imaginations exist.  It is very hard to think of something that has no basis in  reality.  Let me put it in the form of a logical statement.

 

 

 

 

 

Premise 1: Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.

Premise 2:  But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.

Conclusion:  Therefore there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures, which can satisfy this desire.

This something is what people call “God” and “life with God forever.

 

 

 

Yeah I know that argument.  That's why your earlier statement tickled me.

 

The premises are flawed though.  

 

Firstly, they are universal absolutes about what's going on in people's heads, and are poorly supported by evidence if at all.  

 

Secondly, Premise 2 automatically disqualifies the entire material universe since it is something "in time."  The conclusion is an attempt to prove the validity of P2.   Guess which logical fallacy that is?

 

The argument is broken until it is rewritten.

[Vardarac]

No the desire is for God, and you will need evidence to say it is a distortion, not blind Atheist faith.  Every thing you mention we desire is real but you don't want to extend this to a desire for God.

 

Perhaps some people do desire specifically a supernatural being, but you could still easily argue that this is just an exaggeration or distortion of something that is real, like humans - the "reality" part of the "desire = real + imagined" argument you are positing here.

 

You are literally arguing that since people desire something, it must point to something real, because desires originate from something real. I have provided examples of things that are real from which these desires might spring, while the desires still retain wholly imaginary components, as an unfulfilled desire must. My point is that to say that people desiring a thing called God means there is a thing called God is pure sophistry.

Edited by Vardarac, 30 July 2015 - 11:43 PM.

[shadowhawk]

I have said this argument is weak but it does have an appeal.  You can't even think of something, much less desire it that does not find its conceptional roots in reality.  You can't make something up that is totally original.  If we did not desire God, then it would be an argument for Atheism.

[shadowhawk]

 

For the most part things we desire exist.  Even the elements of our imaginations exist.  It is very hard to think of something that has no basis in  reality.  Let me put it in the form of a logical statement.

 

 

 

 

 

Premise 1: Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.

Premise 2:  But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.

Conclusion:  Therefore there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures, which can satisfy this desire.

This something is what people call “God” and “life with God forever.

 

 

 

Yeah I know that argument.  That's why your earlier statement tickled me.

 

The premises are flawed though.  

 

Firstly, they are universal absolutes about what's going on in people's heads, and are poorly supported by evidence if at all.  

 

Secondly, Premise 2 automatically disqualifies the entire material universe since it is something "in time."  The conclusion is an attempt to prove the validity of P2.   Guess which logical fallacy that is?

 

The argument is broken until it is rewritten.

 

It is fairly universal that humans are aware of God and desire Him.  The evidence is overwhelming.  Since the argument is based on desire and we desire real things in the universe it is not circular reasoning to say the universe is real.  The universe is not disqualified.  It is real and we desire it.

[Duchykins]

 

 

For the most part things we desire exist.  Even the elements of our imaginations exist.  It is very hard to think of something that has no basis in  reality.  Let me put it in the form of a logical statement.

 

 

 

 

 

Premise 1: Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.

Premise 2:  But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.

Conclusion:  Therefore there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures, which can satisfy this desire.

This something is what people call “God” and “life with God forever.

 

 

 

Yeah I know that argument.  That's why your earlier statement tickled me.

 

The premises are flawed though.  

 

Firstly, they are universal absolutes about what's going on in people's heads, and are poorly supported by evidence if at all.  

 

Secondly, Premise 2 automatically disqualifies the entire material universe since it is something "in time."  The conclusion is an attempt to prove the validity of P2.   Guess which logical fallacy that is?

 

The argument is broken until it is rewritten.

 

It is fairly universal that humans are aware of God and desire Him.  The evidence is overwhelming.  Since the argument is based on desire and we desire real things in the universe it is not circular reasoning to say the universe is real.  The universe is not disqualified.  It is real and we desire it.

 

 

What I said was that argument is broken because of what P2 says.  It says that there is nothing in time that can satisfy this mysterious desire we're all supposed to have.

 

It automatically disqualifies everything in spacetime.

[Vardarac]

I have said this argument is weak but it does have an appeal.  You can't even think of something, much less desire it that does not find its conceptional roots in reality.  You can't make something up that is totally original.  If we did not desire God, then it would be an argument for Atheism.

 

I think the "desire for God" is just a matter of good advertising.

[shadowhawk]

 

 

 

For the most part things we desire exist.  Even the elements of our imaginations exist.  It is very hard to think of something that has no basis in  reality.  Let me put it in the form of a logical statement.

 

 

 

 

 

Premise 1: Every natural, innate desire in us corresponds to some real object that can satisfy that desire.

Premise 2:  But there exists in us a desire which nothing in time, nothing on earth, no creature can satisfy.

Conclusion:  Therefore there must exist something more than time, earth and creatures, which can satisfy this desire.

This something is what people call “God” and “life with God forever.

 

 

 

Yeah I know that argument.  That's why your earlier statement tickled me.

 

The premises are flawed though.  

 

Firstly, they are universal absolutes about what's going on in people's heads, and are poorly supported by evidence if at all.  

 

Secondly, Premise 2 automatically disqualifies the entire material universe since it is something "in time."  The conclusion is an attempt to prove the validity of P2.   Guess which logical fallacy that is?

 

The argument is broken until it is rewritten.

 

It is fairly universal that humans are aware of God and desire Him.  The evidence is overwhelming.  Since the argument is based on desire and we desire real things in the universe it is not circular reasoning to say the universe is real.  The universe is not disqualified.  It is real and we desire it.

 

 

What I said was that argument is broken because of what P2 says.  It says that there is nothing in time that can satisfy this mysterious desire we're all supposed to have.

 

It automatically disqualifies everything in spacetime.

 

No again.  In spacetime everything desired is real in the four dimensional universe which we desire.  If we desire it, it is in some way real.  So things whose identity is not exhausted in spacetime, but which is likewise desired, is also real.  We do not desire what does not exist.  I will post a debate on this argument.

[shadowhawk]

ARGUMENT FROM DESIRE