92 replies to this topic

[renfr]

Taking it with bacopa would be totally counterproductive, bacopa reduces dopamine receptor excitability.
Racetam could be a good choice, I think personally I will try sulbutiamine with it.

Hey Renfr!

Could you provide me with the study that suggests Bacopa reduces dopamine receptor excitability? I really was hoping on using Bacopa for memory but I also need an increase in Dopamine due to multi-confirmed ADHD-I. Please don't take this as asking SOURCE OR GTFO, I am genuinely interested in this finding, and how it will affect my search for mitigating ADHD effects. =)

Also, why would you suggest Sulbutiamine?

http://examine.com/supplements/Bacopa+Monnieri/#summary3-2

Here you go. Bacopa prevents high dopamine surges to avoid downregulation plus it protects neurons of the substantia nigra from excitotoxicity, this makes bacopa a good drug for sleeping but if you were to be active bacopa is rather contraindicated as it can cause generalized slugginess.
I can't say much on the anti dopaminergic potency of bacopa however from my experience it has caused me muscle spasms which were resolved by taking a dopaminergic drug (sulbutiamine for instance) so I could say to me that the effect was pretty potent.

[BioFreak]

Didn't read the whole thread but I might have something productive to contribute.

High dosages of tyrosine will deplete sulfur, methyl donors and maybe even other cofactors.

Been there. done that. Learned my lesson.

Especially sulfur depletion is very bad, because it results in your body having low levels of glutathione.

And - if the other cofactors get low as well you will see that the effect fades (independent of receptor density).

So you better supplement with cysteine, maybe NAC too, as well as a methyl donor like msm, get a good b complex, and zinc.

[BlueCloud]

L-Tyrosine has been a so-so supplement in my case. Tolerance develops very quickly ( after 2 or 3 days ), and i never know what i'm going to get out of it after dosing : sometimes i do get a push in energy, motivation, and concentration, and sometimes i just get anxiety and anger out of it...
I very rarely take it now....

[renfr]

L-Tyrosine has been a so-so supplement in my case. Tolerance develops very quickly ( after 2 or 3 days ), and i never know what i'm going to get out of it after dosing : sometimes i do get a push in energy, motivation, and concentration, and sometimes i just get anxiety and anger out of it...
I very rarely take it now....

humm indeed, I would even say that to me L tyrosine and NALT are bogus supplements, I had to sell back what I bought.
There is certainly a rise in dopamine as seen on my sleep alyzer which shows very light sleep after NALT intake in the evening compared to control but despite these effects I see not even a single effect concerning motivation or any kind of effect that could be considered "limitless".
I've switched to sulbutiamine in order to get dopaminergic effects and it seems to work much better.

[Adaptogen]

does selegiline seem to induce any kind of hypomania? is there any risk of excitotoxicity from a manic state?

Ive experienced it a couple times, from high dose piracetam and empty stomach/low blood sugar

[BlueCloud]

There is certainly a rise in dopamine as seen on my sleep alyzer which shows very light sleep after NALT intake in the evening

Wich sleep analyzer are you using ? I'm thinking myself of getting a Zeo..

( Sorry for the off-topic..)

Edited by BlueCloud, 05 March 2013 - 02:22 PM.

[renfr]

does selegiline seem to induce any kind of hypomania? is there any risk of excitotoxicity from a manic state?

Ive experienced it a couple times, from high dose piracetam and empty stomach/low blood sugar

Selegiline increases SOD content in the striatum and protects dopaminergic neurons, it is unlikely to cause excitotoxicity. there was a certain concern as to its metabolites such as L-methamphetamine but these are trace amounts and sublingual or dermal intake gets around this problem.

There is certainly a rise in dopamine as seen on my sleep alyzer which shows very light sleep after NALT intake in the evening

Wich sleep analyzer are you using ? I'm thinking myself of getting a Zeo..

( Sorry for the off-topic..)

It can't be compared with the Zeo, it's an app called Sleep Cycle, it creates a graph from your movements during sleep, that's how it looks like :


I noticed that when I take dopaminergic supplements (sulbutiamine, NALT, even vitamin D!) in the evening it reduces significantly deep sleep and the graph gets almost flat.

I think Zeo has an app too but it's much more precise (dunno?).

Edited by renfr, 05 March 2013 - 05:25 PM.

[BlueCloud]

I see , thanks. (Yes the Zeo is a combination of an app and a bluetooth headset you wear while sleeping )

[FocusPocus]

Where did the OP go?

[vtrader]

Anyone have any updates, anyone tried large doses and got consistent results.

[Keizo]

I just tried it for the first time today. About 800mg in total this day. It has definite mood enhancing effects. Just like methylphenidate and dexamphetamine it increases my spatial understanding. The physical world makes sense while these things do their job. Facial expressions make much more sense. I feel more at ease and it is simpler "navigating" and moving about in the physical world. Definite mood enhancement and calm. Better than my experiences with those stimulants, due to them always having rather unpleasant side-effects.
The only other thing I've really started taken recently is vitamin D and K.

Hopefully some decent portion of this experience might be replicated at least once in a while. I actually got a noticable effect from just 300mg. Of course first time this might happen...

Unfortunately it feels too similar to my experiences with low-doses of dexamphetamine. That worked almost perfectly the first couple of days then it turned sour.

I will probably try low doses for a week, and read some books.

[Keizo]

Today the effects are comparatively modest, or it feels that way. Took about 600mg.

[Foldinspace]

I took some this morning after a dreadful wakeup (bad thoughts), and had an amazingly focused morning. I started consolidating all of my emails that I've been waiting to do for a while, and no thoughts distracted my inner goals. 
As for the hyperactivity, I think eventually we all get unappreciative of the benefits, and go the extra mile (as in talking with many people and getting a "high" from it). This happens to me frequently, when it does, usually I go ride my bike or go on a walk. Try writing some stuff down during your bikerides or walks to get some ideas of putting your focus somewhere else (which is the root cause???).

[Keizo]

I discontinued this after 5-7 days or something like that. The good effects only lasted 2 days, then the negatives were predominant. However the whole thing calmed down each day.

Instead of 500mg or more, I would probably use 50mg more like a simple nutrient boost instead of trying to get anything out of it directly. But probably I won't

Edited by Keizo, 14 July 2014 - 06:01 PM.

[Samuraidream]

Same here, it worked for the first couple of days and then the tolerance skyrocketed all of a sudden. Now it makes me a bit spaced out rather than focused whenever I take it, but still improves my mood, which is rather weird.

So what shall I take to upregulate my dopamine receptors long-term? Uridine? Somehting else?

 

 

Edited by SamuraiSlut, 20 October 2014 - 02:27 PM.

[Keizo]

I actually take 500mg (0.5g) now in the morning on empty stomach, but there is no obvious effect. Maybe there was something mild the first few days. I've used it for a few weeks now. I'm going to discontinue it for a couple of days and see if I feel any more clear-headed, just in case.

 

CDP-choline I will give a fair chance, though my initial trial run resulted in mild gout type symptoms, or simply build up of fluids in my feet (otherwise due low dose amphetamine and dandelion extract discontinuation, both diuretics).

I imagine that low dose amphetamine could have permanent positives, certainly some people have mentioned it http://www.longecity...healed-my-mind/

 

 

 

 

[Samuraidream]

Same here, it worked for the first couple of days and then the tolerance skyrocketed all of a sudden. Now it makes me a bit spaced out rather than focused whenever I take it, but still improves my mood, which is rather weird.

So what shall I take to upregulate my dopamine receptors long-term? Uridine? Somehting else?

 

Well, I've ordered some Mucuna Pruriens from NOW food.

Will an occasional use (3-4 days a week) downregulate my dopamine receptors further? Or will it actually help in the long run?
 

[MenDis]

I tried L-tyrosine at 500mg 3-4x/day for about a week recently and noticed significantly improved attention and executive functions (I have ADHD like symptoms from an several year old injury of sorts).  However, at the end of my trial, I noticed that my eyesight was "off". I'm not sure how to describe it, but it was as if there were small fuzzy spots in my vision. In addition, my ability to resolve low contrast images was worse. I didn't really notice it unless I was reading typed words that were in a light font color. I also noticed when I was reading that I couldn't make out words that were slightly off to the periphery of my line of sight. Anyways, I stopped taking L-tyrosine and the issues resolved for the most part. I did some digging and came up with some studies:

 

Rats fed an abnormally high concentration of L-tyrosine developed a reproducible corneal

disease. By biomicroscopy the corneal lesion was seen to progress through definite stages:

overall diffuse epithelial haze; discrete, stellate-shaped epithelial opacities; stromal

thickening; vascular ingrowth; and finally regression of the opacity.

Tyrosine levels were determined spectrofluorometrically at all stages of the disease.

Initially, tyrosine in both serum and aqueous humor rose rapidly. The concentration of this

amino acid in the aqueous humor exceeded that in serum. While remaining higher than

normal, the absolute concentration of tyrosine in serum varied little with time. The

content of tyrosine in the aqueous humor decreased slowly. Only the dietary dose of

tyrosine was correlated with the elevation in the serum and aqueous humor tyrosine concentrations

(P < 0.001). Other factors tested. including sex, presence or absence of

pigmentation, and type of ambient light, did not modify the corneal disease. 

 

 

[1]

 

Tyrosine-induced eye and skin lesions in man are an autosomal, recessive,

inherited syndrome associated with tyrosinemia, tyrosinuria, and increased

urinary excretion of tyrosine metabolites. Patients have mild to severe

keratitis and erosive and hyperkeratotic lesions on the palms and soles.

The degree of involvement was variable in the small number of patients studied.

Mental retardation is frequently a part of the syndrome. A low-tyrosine

low-phenylalanine diet lowers blood tyrosine level and leads to healing of

the skin and eye lesions. Early dietary treatment may prevent mental retardation.

[2]

 

L-Tyrosine can be synthesised in the body from L-phenylalanine, an essential amino acid. The additive L-tyrosine

is produced by acid hydrolysis of feather keratin. L-Tyrosine is considered safe for all animal species, provided

that the conditions of use are respected, i.e. supplementation of conventional diets with 0.5 % L-tyrosine for

food-producing animals and 1.5 % for non-food-producing species. Higher dietary concentrations may lead to

growth rate depression and eye lesions, and, in young animals, behavioural changes. L-Tyrosine will be

incorporated into the body protein of the animal. The protein composition will not be changed. Free L-tyrosine

will not be stored in the tissues. On the basis of the data available, no risk is expected for the consumer from the

use of this L-tyrosine preparation showing a purity > 95 %. In the absence of data, the product is considered

potentially irritating to skin and eyes, a potential dermal sensitiser and hazardous by inhalation. The use of Ltyrosine

in animal nutrition would not be expected to lead to any localised increase in the concentration of Ltyrosine

or its metabolites in the environment. It is concluded that the use of this product as a feed additive does

not represent a risk to the environment. The supplementation of feed with L-tyrosine is efficacious in cases

where high requirements for tyrosine as a melanin precursor occur. This has been demonstrated in cats for

intensively colouring the coat. L-Tyrosine may also have the potential to intensify the pigmentation of the

coat/plumage of other species, but limited evidence is available.

[3]

 

Source [1] suggests that a high protein diet might be able to mitigate the risk somewhat (see discussion section). I might just be particularly prone to this adverse effect, but I would be on the lookout for any vision changes. It's too bad, because I was getting some good effects from it otherwise.

 

 

Sources:

[1] Excess Dietary Tyrosine and Cornea1 Lesions.pdf 

[2] Tyrosine-Induced Eye and Skin Lesions.pdf

[3] Scientific opinion on the safety and efficacy of L-tyrosine.pdf

 

Attached Files

•  Excess Dietary Tyrosine and Corneal Lesions_Part1.pdf   1.4MB   2 downloads
•  Excess Dietary Tyrosine and Corneal Lesions_Part2.pdf   1.6MB   2 downloads
•  Tyrosine-Induced Eye and Skin Lesions_Part1.jpg   592.4KB   1 downloads
•  Tyrosine-Induced Eye and Skin Lesions_Part2.jpg   449.68KB   1 downloads
•  Tyrosine-Induced Eye and Skin Lesions_Part3.jpg   588.5KB   1 downloads
•  Scientific opinion on the safety and efficacy of L-tyrosine.pdf.pdf   300.94KB   3 downloads

Edited by MenDis, 23 November 2014 - 11:00 PM.

[MenDis]

The other thing is that L-tyrosine depletes serotonin by increasing L-dopa, which then competes for L-aromatic amino acid decarboxylase with 5-HTP [1]. I just want more working memory! Why does it have to be so hard?

 

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm....es/PMC3415362/ 

[jroseland]

I spent +20 hours on pubmed to organize the presentation below on Tyrosine, I hope you find it helpful...

 

To summarize some of my thoughts on the Nootropic...

As a veteran Nootropics consumer, the primary value that I see lifehackers are going to find in Tyrosine is to fight asymmetrical stress and combat sleep deprivation. You would have to eat a mountain of Avocados to get the 4 to 6 grams of Tyrosine needed to have a kick ass day on just two hours of sleep. As much as lifehackers talk about work-life balance sometimes you just need to pop some pills to take on a monster of a day or to bounce back from a crazy night.

 

[Busaum]

I spent +20 hours on pubmed to organize the presentation below on Tyrosine, I hope you find it helpful...

 

To summarize some of my thoughts on the Nootropic...

As a veteran Nootropics consumer, the primary value that I see lifehackers are going to find in Tyrosine is to fight asymmetrical stress and combat sleep deprivation. You would have to eat a mountain of Avocados to get the 4 to 6 grams of Tyrosine needed to have a kick ass day on just two hours of sleep. As much as lifehackers talk about work-life balance sometimes you just need to pop some pills to take on a monster of a day or to bounce back from a crazy night.

Most of the video shows your face, talking. The images you used are irrelevant. What a waste of time. Why not just write a text then? This could substitute the video without any loss.

[cuprous]

I'm always a bit confused by the desire to try something like tyrosine as a long-term supplement.  Save it for interviews, a once-a-week dose to get a paper done or whatever.  If you want longer-lasting well-being then go for lithium orotate, maybe ALCAR, a B-complex.  Exercise, meditate, sleep more.

 

Even in "Limitless" the fictional compound stopped working with repeat doses.  L-Tyrosine does work for me but I only use it maybe once a month.  

[GonzaloS]

Hello everyone,

 

I am new in the forum. I found it because I was looking information about L-Tyrosine.

I started to try L-Tyrosine last Monday, and I been increasing the dosis day by day to get to 1.5g (today Friday), I haven't had any effect whatsoever.

Today I will try with 2 grams, but I won't go any further because L-Tyrosine stimulates the thyroid to produce more hormons, therefore in healthy subjects I don't feel is a good idea to take it in the long term. Probably one or two weeks of this supplement (even a month) it is okey, but to stop this stimulus after a long period of time will have consequences either we can notice them inmediatelly or not....

 

Gonzalo.

 

[PerfectSeek]

I find l-tyrosine useful for pre-workout motivation (~800mg), along with a cup of coffee.  NALT for me felt like a completely different drug, didn't increase 'drive' as much but reduces anxiety significantly and seemed to make me a bit sharper. 

 

I don't take either chronically for fear of tolerance / receptor downregulation, but it's quite useful when you don't quite feel like going to the gym..

 

 

 

 

[Area-1255]

Sovr'gn, from your description, it sounds like the Tyrosine induced a hypomanic state. Various substances will do that to me, and I wish I was that way all the time.

Reuptake inhibitors and MAO-B inhibitors combined  can do that...all successful people are somewhat hypomanic. Some just hide it better than others.

[Area-1255]

'Limitless' though timed around a suitable, evolving age - is somewhat based on a cliche concept of a pill enhancing and transforming someone's life..basically overnight . No pill can change someone's life that fast..even in abnormally healthy individuals.... it defeats the whole concept of neurobiology - which btw, has advanced ALOT especially in the last 5 years...epigenetics may be the best way to transform someone...But this takes time - and it's a lot more complicated than one thinks..furthermore - everyone DOES have untapped potential - and one thing that most, above all , do not understand - is that 'genius' is not just your I.Q ; it's a state of mind..and ideology - a willingness to learn..genius is persistence and hard work - it is curiosity, a zeal for knowledge and open-mindedness...genius does correlate to an almost compulsive need to understand - but it indicates that the persons brain works at a higher level...but not necessarily because the person is born that way...some things just 'click' because of unknown intermingling factors..but it certainly doesn't happen overnight!!

[vtrader]

Limitless:

High level of awareness both internal and external

which in turn goes onto being fearless

The ability to consume large amounts of information, process and analyse in a short time frame

The ability to connect ideas from different sources, see patterns

High level of creativity

Strong long term memory

Strong self confidence

High level of motivation

High level of focus

The ability to stop/manage the monkey mind, so that brain is more focused on specific things

Being present

Strong sense of clairty

No excuses

Strong discipline

Playfulness curiosity

 

 

Apart from the ability to consume information quickly i.e photographic memory, everything else can be trained for, start with the basics, discipline, being present, stop the monkey mind and being fearless.

 

[Area-1255]

Yes, but generalizing doesn't promote intelligence. 

Here's an example; I'm not sure how many will be able to answer this correctly. Probably a good few.

If you have a  dead rat weighing 0.38 kg (0.4kg above average) and it is placed without your knowledge in one of three small metallic toolboxes. In some foam cushion (like what a video game controller sits in)..all three boxes are 8.9 inches of height, 20 inches of width, 9.7 in of assembled depth, each can hold 100 lbs...nothing else is in them, the only difference is one is tread plate steel, and the second is titanium and the third is iron...now how would you determine (without opening them) which box the rat is in? {NOTE: rat has been dead for exactly 7 days and 4.3 hours}

Each box is 2 inches apart and on the same wooden table, and each box is pre-cleaned and disinfected with a light-bleach solution.

I look forward to your answers. 

Oh, and you can't shake the box or toss it upside down either...scratch your heads fellas!

Limitless:

High level of awareness both internal and external

which in turn goes onto being fearless

The ability to consume large amounts of information, process and analyse in a short time frame

The ability to connect ideas from different sources, see patterns

High level of creativity

Strong long term memory

Strong self confidence

High level of motivation

High level of focus

The ability to stop/manage the monkey mind, so that brain is more focused on specific things

Being present

Strong sense of clairty

No excuses

Strong discipline

Playfulness curiosity

 

 

Apart from the ability to consume information quickly i.e photographic memory, everything else can be trained for, start with the basics, discipline, being present, stop the monkey mind and being fearless.

 

Edited by Area-1255, 29 September 2015 - 02:55 PM.

[123apk]

Sovr'gn, from your description, it sounds like the Tyrosine induced a hypomanic state. Various substances will do that to me, and I wish I was that way all the time.

 

I could do with some of that, all I got was brain fog when I used high doses alongside Phenibut (which was a normal dose of 1.5g). I don't go much over 1.5g  tyrosine otherwise it makes me dopey, dim witted and walk into things.

Edited by 123apk, 09 November 2015 - 12:16 AM.

[Andreas Baumeister]

I understand that tyrosine improves working memory function under stress because it is a precursor of catecholamine. How does that work? I read both that stress impairs working memory by increasing catecholamine release (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17434919; www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3986539) but also that stress depletes catecholamine (www.aminomics.com/nutraview/Tyrosine.htm; www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25797188). What am I missing here?