6 replies to this topic

[spicehead]

Added Noopept to my stack two weeks ago at 20mg/2x/day (weighing in at 75kgs).

stack info:
ADAM multivitamin, morn
3 large eggs, morn
1 cup coffee, morn/aft
1g fish oil (epa/dha@2:1), morn/aft
500mg ALCAR, morn/aft
500mg Tyrsine, morn/aft
500mg Ca, morn/aft
250mg Mg, morn/aft
300ui D3, morn/aft
.8-1.6g Piracetam, morn/aft
5mg melatonin, pm
4oz red wine, pm


Cumulative effects that have increased/remained:
I've become accustomed to the increased efficiency in thought: neither manic nor robotic but a novel packaging of ideas that allows me to process items quicker. There's been an ease in verbal expression, probably from both anxiolytic effects (non-fogging) and fluency. Automatically processing everyday events in the background of my mind is a large bonus.

Initial effects that have left:
First few doses washed over me with a tidal wave of serene awareness. My visual field was working with expanded focus like a soft vision where there was an increased ability to watch items in my periphery without losing track of what my eyes were on. There are other nuances which are harder to explain such as immediate and complete facial expression recognition in a moving crowd.

All stated initial effects have left almost entirely. I'm trying to take into account that the shock-factor of these new effects is subsiding as they are more or less incorporated into my functioning (as it may have been the 'tidal' feeling itself), but even so it seems as though some are absent or have gone dormant.

Noopept dosage increased to 30-35mgs/2x/day which only served to fortify the cumulative effects. My diet/exercise/sleep patterns/stress have remained reasonably constant. Stack outside the Noopept dose modification has remained unchanged.

Some questions:
1) Has anyone had a similar experience in losing some effects while gaining others after a period of dosing?
2) If so, is there a method to regain those initial effects?
3) Are doses up to 60mg/2x/day sustainable without too many adverse effects?

Would rather not "cycle" beyond an occasional lazy weekend. Occasional NMDA antagonism to reduce tolerance is already an incorporated factor, though only used infrequently on an as-desired basis.

Edited by spicehead, 23 February 2012 - 10:08 PM.

[themastadon]

Wouldn't you want an NMDA agonist instead of antagonist?

[manic_racetam]

Hi there,

Honestly those initial effects are quite beautiful. In retrospect I tried chasing those effects but eventually that led to negative side effects from high-dosing.

Once you've been 2 weeks into dosing I don't suggest increasing the dosage. I'd fall back to right around 30mg a day if I were you.

The russian product literature suggests taking a one-month break for every 1.5-3 months of noopept usage. I understand your feelings of unwillingness to take a break longer than an occasional weekend but let me tell you my story before you make your decision.

After one month+ of dosing at right around 40mg a day I did a two week stint of 200-300mg a day. This was amazing at first, but the high doses led to negative side effects like forgetfulness, reduced short term memory, attention problems and reduced libido. So I took the recommended break from dosing. Actually I took about 1.5 months off from Noopept completely.

I decided to take the 10-30mg dosage recommendation more seriously the next time around. But to my surprise 10mg had a strong effect on me the next time I tried it. Not the euphoric serenity of the initial mega-dose but the increase in verbal fluency (words of all shapes and sizes flow eloquently off the tounge with no effort at all), long term memory recall, clarity of vision and head-space were all there.

It's almost like my brain is sensitized to this stuff now. It's possible that structural changes have taken place due to increase BDNF and NGF release from the Noopept use... not sure. But I just take it occasionally now and almost never go over 20mg in a day.

But if what you really want to know is if after a period of abstinence will the serenity effects come back with a larger dose... I tried it once. I found a 100mg capsule in my bag from when I was over-dosing everyday. I took it and it did give me that serenity feeling, but it was somehow different. I didn't feel as intelligent as I did when I took such l large doses previously, it had quite a color-brightening effect and I was basically euphoric, but I felt dumber. Not sure how to put it... just not the same as before.

My reaction to Noopept has changed. It's a completely different animal compared to the first day I tried it. But as I study it more, I realize more and more that the most therapeutic and beneficial doses are on the MUCH lower end of the dosing scale. Check this mouse study for instance. In that study the most beneficial dose was 0.5mg/kg. A human equivalent dose of about 8mg. Yeah, human equivalent dose of 8mg was more beneficial than human equivalent dose of 11mg! A difference of human equivalent 3mg too much reduced the benefit... imagine a 100-200mg dose!

Anyway, I'd suggest taking a month off, especially after 120mg a day. I'd suggest to lower the dose instead of increasing it. Don't chase the inital feelings this stuff brings because it will likely not return. Instead of missing that feeling try appreciating the enhancement that it brings you now. And honestly, it's pretty cool to be able to take 10-20mg anytime you want and immediately get the mental edge that used to take daily dosing at 20-40mg to acheive.

No one knows what side effects may be happening on a neuronal basis at these human doses. Take the product recommendations seriously. Just because you can take 10 x the dosage of some medicine without dying, doesn't mean it isn't harming you at that dosage. I don't regret my MegaDose experiment, but I'm not about to repeat it! Good luck.

[themastadon]

Racetam:

There have been reports of people combatting tolerance to the initial, euphoric effects of adderall by using NMDA agonists such as Memantine. A quick google search will pull up a couple 18-page threads with lots of info on the subject, but one pre-med student's description struck me as especially useful: http://www.addforums...ad.php?t=102335

I suspect the same principles could be applied to Noopept, for (as I understand it) NMDA agonists have been shown to reduce tolerance as a result of sensitization. This could, in turn, prolong the initial euphoric, sensory, and intellectual benefits you observed with high doses of Noopept. Any thoughts?

[spicehead]

NMDA antagonists.

Manic, I think I'm hearing you correctly and am glad your initiative gave us these results. Pretty strong encouragement toward low daily doses. I completely agree that the cumulative effects are worth keeping it in the stack. However considering the outcome was preceeded by megadosing, I am inclined to have a (reasonably) high dose day before taking a 1+ month break. It seems that course of events has the best chance of mimicing the noopept sensitization upon reintroducing it. Might not be necessary but at least it'll throw out more data points. Did you notice any significant crash or withdrawl period when discontinuing noopept?

Mastadon, this may be a possibility. Unfortunately it may require a fresh brain with (regular?) NMDA antagonist dosing and I cannot offer these circumstances. Noopept's mechanism of action escapes my understanding so it may or may not be affected by this method. I can say that the NMDA antagonists did not bring these effects back, except for a bit of longing placebo, after they were gone.

[manic_racetam]

NMDA antagonists.

Manic, I think I'm hearing you correctly and am glad your initiative gave us these results. Pretty strong encouragement toward low daily doses. I completely agree that the cumulative effects are worth keeping it in the stack. However considering the outcome was preceeded by megadosing, I am inclined to have a (reasonably) high dose day before taking a 1+ month break. It seems that course of events has the best chance of mimicing the noopept sensitization upon reintroducing it. Might not be necessary but at least it'll throw out more data points. Did you notice any significant crash or withdrawl period when discontinuing noopept?

Mastadon, this may be a possibility. Unfortunately it may require a fresh brain with (regular?) NMDA antagonist dosing and I cannot offer these circumstances. Noopept's mechanism of action escapes my understanding so it may or may not be affected by this method. I can say that the NMDA antagonists did not bring these effects back, except for a bit of longing placebo, after they were gone.

Interesting stuff. Highly recommend reading the article mastadon linked above. NMDA antagonists work by inhibiting glutamate and therefore ca2+ ion release? Well, I'm pretty sure that would have a very strange effect on Noopept.

In this study Noopept "decreased synaptoneurosome membrane potential in a ca2+ free environment"... and in the presence of ca2+ it "induced both hyperpolarizing and depolarizing membrane responses of synaptoneurosomes" So..... what does that mean?

Just postulation here based on the study I linked above, but I think that Noopept might rely on ca2+ in order to produce it's effect. Which would mean that if you take a whole bunch of Noopept it would be reacting with a whole bunch of ca2+... which could lead to extremely fast tolerance building (since the brain relies on ca2+ to initiate tolerance). Actually, the action of noopept on/with ca2+ ions could explain why the feeling of serenity seems to be so short lived... just a few days in general.

Attempting to use NMDA antagonists for this would have to be carried out experimentally... and the experiment would need a "fresh" volunteer that responds positively to Noopept. But if NMDA antagonists block ca2+ ion release... wouldn't that leave noopept "decreasing synaptoneurosome membrane potential'? So would Memantine stop Noopept from working?

Yeah, I don't know, I'm sure it's all much more complex than that.

Spicehead:
Did I have any withdrawal period when abruptly going from 100mg BID to zero? I did actually. I was driving between LA and Bakersfield the night of my first day of abstinence. I found myself in a very very unstable mood. I felt what could be described as... hmmm... uncomfortable depression, extreme impulsive urges and momentary suicidal ideation. I kept getting this really strong urge to drive my rental car off a cliff, it was quite unsettling about an hour after the thought passed. It was really strange and unexpected, but flooring it off the side of the mountain suddenly felt like the right thing to do.

So yes... a significant and unexpected crash that lasted approximately 3-4 hours. I didn't journal that day but I remember leaving in the afternoon and driving into the night. Half way up the mountain I was suddenly struck with that antsy, impulsive, unstable depressive state. And it had subsided by the time I got to my destination 3-4 hours later. I basically ignored it but in retrospect I probably should have paid more attention

[Ben]

Initial effects that have left:
First few doses washed over me with a tidal wave of serene awareness. My visual field was working with expanded focus like a soft vision where there was an increased ability to watch items in my periphery without losing track of what my eyes were on.

Exactly what the initial effects are like for me. Colours become more vivid and shadows gain a greater definition. My eyesight in general improves.