8 replies to this topic

[renfr]

While researching on gingko I fell on that study : http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8614288
So ginkgo is a non-selective MAOI? it is commonly accepted that racetams shouldn't be mixed with MAOIs as it might be letal and yet I see a lot of people here stacking it with racetams.
so is it safe at doses under 500mg? or should I remove it of my stack?

[hooter]

Gingko increases blood pressure and lowers blood clotting. Piracetam also lowers blood clotting. This combination could perhaps cause a nosebleed fountain spraying all across your workplace. Best to be careful when mixing anticoagulants.

Hydergine is a maoi and should be mixed with piracetam. I'm not sure about non-reversible MAOI inhibitors.

Edited by hooter, 03 March 2012 - 12:56 PM.

[gamesguru]

Gingko increases blood pressure and lowers blood clotting. Piracetam also lowers blood clotting. This combination could perhaps cause a nosebleed fountain spraying all across your workplace. Best to be careful when mixing anticoagulants.

Hydergine is a maoi and should be mixed with piracetam. I'm not sure about non-reversible MAOI inhibitors.

Thin blood can become a serious issue for people using ginkgo+piracetam, especially if you take extra vitamin E, CoQ10, garlic, ginger, turmeric, cayenne, EPA/DHA, EGCG, inositol (hexaphosphate), policosanol/pycnogenol, hawthorn, St. john's wort, dong quai, feverfew, chamomile, butcher's broom, horse chestnut, Warfarin, or other agents which thin the blood.
In order to combat this problem, I suggest adding kale to your diet, since an adequate intake of vitamin K is essential to proper blood clotting. Other important vitamins and minerals for the circulatory system include iron, magnesium, potassium, calcium, silicone, and the B vitamins (esp B3, B9, and B12). If, even after 3 months of good diet, your nootropics make your blood still extremely thin, you should probably consult a physician, as I would suspect an underlying platelet disorder. I wouldn't really recommend any herbs to strengthen arteries or to thicken the blood.

I know some who mix hydergine and piracetam. I wouldn't call it a contraindiction, I would just say it's an interaction we don't understand yet...much like cannabis or even alcohol. Myself, I would never even touch hydergine, seeing the scary research connected to pleural, retroperitoneal, and cardiac fibrosis has made me overly-skeptical.
I have frequently mixed large doses of Rhodiola (which contains rosiridin, a potent and unselective [http://www.sciencedi...37887410900021X] MAOI [it is not yet known whether rosiridin is reversible or irreversible]) with piracetam. I experienced mixed effects and in the end decided against rhodiola (and MAOIs in general) for now since we don't really understand it. If I had to guess, based upon anecdotal testimony, it would seem that Rhodiola contains primarily reversible MAOIs...I say this because most people who are taking Rhodiola with dangerous drugs (particularly Prozac) seem to go unscathed, which would not happen if Rhodiola was a potent, irreversible MAOI.

Edited by dasheenster, 03 March 2012 - 03:26 PM.

[hooter]

The problem is the 'scary research' has only been proven for other ergot alkaloids and it was generalized that Hydergine would cause this. But there hasn't been a single reported case.

However should there be conclusive research that shows agonism at 5ht2b for Hydergine, this would indeed suggest fibrosis risk. And this is highly possible.

Edited by hooter, 03 March 2012 - 03:27 PM.

[gamesguru]

The problem is the 'scary research' has only been proven for other ergot alkaloids and it was generalized that Hydergine would cause this. But there hasn't been a single reported case.

However should there be conclusive research that shows agonism at 5ht2b for Hydergine, this would indeed suggest fibrosis risk. And this is highly possible.

There haven't been any reported cases which have gained much attention; this is certainly true. According to this site, one person on hydergine has fibrosis (it may be simple correlation, not causation, tho): http://www.ehealthme...leural fibrosis.

Hydergine may turn out to be safe, but I'm not going to be the guinea pig for that experiment. Considering it comes from a class of drugs known to interact with 5ht2b receptors, I wouldn't say luck is on our side.

[renfr]

That's kinda scary. Does blood thinning builds up with time or is it only punctual?
I considered taking ginkgo to abandon vinpocetine in order to increase cerebral blood flow, what about picamilon then? Any blood thinning, MAOI effects?

[gamesguru]

That's kinda scary. Does blood thinning builds up with time or is it only punctual?
I considered taking ginkgo to abandon vinpocetine in order to increase cerebral blood flow, what about picamilon then? Any blood thinning, MAOI effects?

Most blood thinners act for about 2-8 hours. I don't know of any that last days/weeks. After 1-3 days of use, your tolerance should be stable...the effects shouldn't "build up", except if you're clearing plaque from your arteries....then you will of course notice a cumulative improvement until your arteries & veins are clean and healthy again. Most people can tolerate up to 400 IU/day of mixed tocopherols (vitamin E forms) without any harm, but above ~800 IU daily is risky, especially for people taking Warfarin/strong blood thinners. Vitamin E, like all the other anti-coagulants I mentioned, carries other risks besides bleeding, and I wouldn't say that bleeding is a big issue for a normal person.

I would personally ditch vinpocetine since it appears to inhibit VMAT, thus depleting serotonin/dopamine/norephidephrine in chronic users. Ginkgo shows no such depletion when used moderately. Picamilon is, from what I have seen, highly controversial. Some claim that since it supplies its own GABA, it must avoid the negative effects associated with benzodiazepine-induced GABA depletion. Others accept that picamilon is a novel drug, but maintain that exogenous introduction of GABA upsets the axis of GABA production, much like the use of anabolic steroids causes atrophy of the testicles. I only use picamilon a few times per month now. I have heard hearsay and seen claims that picamilon acts as an MAOI, but I have not seen this substantiated, and I cannot see how it would given that it's simply GABA and niacin. Gingko does contain MAOIs, and it may potentially be the ginkgoflavonglycosides or the ginkgo terpene lactones [http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8614288]. It doesn't appear to be severe, but it is not advised for patients taking prescription-strength MAOIs.

[Baten]

I've been mixing racetams and ginkgo for months. I've had little cuts and wounds,
and MAYBE they bled for a minute or so longer, but it's not like I had trouble stopping the "fountain" of blood, haha.
I do take various minerals and vitamin supplements, though.

Edited by Baten, 03 March 2012 - 11:06 PM.

[renfr]

Yeah they're weak but blood thinning is not my principal concern.
I think I'll stick with chewing gum, maybe not as effective but still good for cerebral blood flow