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Bird Flu


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#31 Lazarus Long

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 03:34 PM

I have not particularly entered the discussion on this thread's topic earlier because I happen to agree with both Mind and Brian to a certain degree and I suggest that we need to pick not merely our battles but our battlefields. Let's address what is happening first, then what we are doing about it and conclude with what we can do about it.

There is a *Perfect Storm* scenario brewing that is a catastrophically dangerous concoction of politics, economics, biology, sociology, and natural causality.

First of all the impact of poverty on the issue of bird flu is vital to appreciate. Let's all please look at facts (not hype) and do so broadly enough enough to appreciate the global scope of the dilemma.

Currently the disease (IF UNCHECKED) has a 50% mortality rate, however as Mind & Brian suggest IT CAN BE CHECKED, the critical issue is how much will be spent to do so?

And as importantly; where and when?

After the pandemic firestorm has already started, thereby creating the need and potential profits?

The Front Lines in the Battle Against Avian Flu Are Running Short of Money

That would be as ethically corrupt as a laid off fireman becoming an arsonist to promote job security. It is invalid to anticipate as yet nonexistent and thus unprofitable need as the only legitimate reason for investment. This is part of the problem of depending only on necessity (demand) to drive market produced supply. Supply can be rationally anticipated for conditions such as we face but there are no recognized economic strategies that can make them profitable before a crisis that do not depend upon a central authority to fund such programs. Without the ability to anticipate profits business only sectors would rightly consider this expropriation to be forced at their own expense to create the means necessary to prepare for pandemic.

If the appropriate initial investment to prevent pandemic is made then there could not even be a pandemic. The dilemma to those interested in viewing this ONLY in terms of the Free Market is that by preventing the problem by principally investing great sums only in responding one is committing economic suicide. That is why without a central funding authority predicated on public welfare, i.e. government there is all too little incentive to prevent disease, invest in vaccine technology or anticipate and prevent calamity. Ironically the worst thing is that when successful at preventing calamity more often than not those who contribute to preventing the calamity by sounding the early warning are ridiculed as *Chicken-little*. No my friends the sky is not falling could that be the ground rushing up to meet it?

Second, the requirements of prevention tend to be anathema to the Neo Con nut-jobs that are opting to do everything in a reactionary mode of late except war monger, and war also increases the likelihood of pandemic. The Neo-Cons as I have repeatedly pointed out are inept at *Nation Building*. They are not merely incompetent in this regard but so criminally negligent perhaps they should be relabeled *Nero-Cons* since they seem best at blithely ignoring the needs of the many and also great con artists at convincing Americans to drink their Kool Aide.

So we have a double edge political crisis contributing to an economic one that is global in scope because the areas that provides the conditions for this disease to incubate long enough within human hosts so as to complete the mutations necessary are mostly (but not exclusively) in the third world; especially third world regions overrun by war, ravaged by poverty and incapable of responding adequately.

Going tsk tsk and saying too bad for them is not sufficient because once the natural mutations have been achieved the level of virulence and threat rises to tsunami proportions and our current safeguards are less adequate than the New Orleans levees. They have no cake to eat *mon Reine*. [wis]

For example when Clinton inherited the problem of loose nukes after the collapse of the Soviet Union he opted to do something that many thought at first irrational, he bought them for dismantling and properly disposing and securing the weapons grade nuclear fuel. It happens to have worked better than most plans to keep the dangerous nuclear fuels out of the hands of terrorists and the real costs are far less than most other strategies.

If the levees in New Orleans had been invested in (regardless of what group one wants to fix the most blame on) at a pittance of the current cost of rebuilding then much of the destruction might have been prevented.

Much of the problem with bird flu is similar.

A lot of what is entailed involves a variety of preventive measures, including more research but also developing vaccines and stockpiling them, developing antivirals like tamilfu and most of all dealing with outbreaks in a somewhat draconian fashion where they occur.

The last should be first and it is what has already failed. The reason is the economic impact of the groups involved.

When (not if) this disease goes pandemic our economy will respond along with the Europeans and some Asian countries but the areas that cannot respond will be overrun. We are *capable* of responding and we will but many areas of the world will receive no real help till their plagues have run their course. This is another example of how the private sector cannot be be expected to meet this kind of threat as it cannot profit before the fact when market exists ONLY through subsidy. We already see this with respect to how the major pharmaceuticals have generally abandoned vaccine development not merely production in the same manner they abandon *orphaned drugs* once a market is unable to support their production.

This then introduces the third critical component of the coming storm, class strife coincident with global terrorism. The outbreak will feed the growing global strife like fuel to the flames.

This is not 1918, we have tools and methods to fight this scourge, we are not helpless but we have already made the cost of doing so vastly greater by ignoring prevention. It will become a matter of cost and those that can afford to cope will survive and those that can't will die by the numbers as a global society will spread this disease even faster than 1918. By ignoring the prevention possible due to economic policy we will be seen as negligent leaders again and a threat to global health that will be interpreted as grotesque. This will become another example of class war superimposed on a cultural one driven by racism to boot. Those that will be the initial victims of this scourge will be people of color, poor and principally in Asia, Africa, and Latin America. Willfully ignoring that obvious fact now will help to validate the claims of racist genocidal intent later even if much of the truth is mere stupidity, greed and negligence.

So fourth lets discuss biology, the disease we are facing is not cross contagious to humans *yet* but H5N1 is getting dangerously close to what they have learned about the 1918 flu virus in characteristics (five of ten critical mutations) and that disease required no intermediary host and was a million times more infectious than current strains.

It has already infected large scale population of migratory birds, not just domestic populations where draconian measures offer some limited protection. The biology of the spread for this disease is also about the demographics of human migrations. In a society significantly more global than in 1918 (the sheer numbers of people moving, the speed at which they do so, and the increased number of crossed paths and destinations) it will be impossible to contain the disease in the third world even if that were such a culpable intent.

So we have the biology of the disease, combined with the biology of migrant populations creating a kind of synergistic impact with another natural causality, catastrophe and climate.

Yesterday a devastating earthquake occurred at what should be considered the onset of flu season near *ground zero* for this potential storm. It will increase the likelihood of the disease not merely spreading through that region but having more opportunity to incubate in human populations even as the infrastructure to respond has also been decimated. Oh and it also happens to be ground zero for some of the political issues I have already mentioned. Once this firestorm starts putting it out will be nigh on impossible, containment will be draconian as this administration is already considering using the army to quarantine whole sections of the country and economy. Of course we forget that much of the need ed resources to even enact such an Executive Order are already abroad, committed, and with no small irony at or near ground zero for the potential pandemic.

To impose martial law in America in response to pandemic is logical but it would be catastrophic if the forces involved were inadequate to the task. Our military is untrained, ill equipped and unprepared to carry out such an order even if it were given in *good faith,* which frankly if it were to coincide with elections for example will never be believed.

So why is climate a factor?

(no this is not another dig about global warming for the most part) :))

Winter is coming in the northern hemisphere, the flu season comes with it as I already mentioned but it is still hurricane season and we even have regions of this country still in the midst of significantly crippled infrastructures that are incapable of responding adequately to minor injuries (i.e. only one hospital is operating in NOLA at the moment) let alone a pandemic once it starts. These areas along the Gulf Coast also happen to be perfect climates along with populations (incubators) for the disease to mutate in domestically.

We are also facing the devastation of entire regions due to storms among the poorer populations in Central America and the Caribbean; two regions that have direct impact on the US due to immigration (legal and undocumented) as well as seasonal travel for tourists to and from this country. More storms and more devastation will increase poverty and increase the probability of mutation and pandemic by exposing greater populations with higher susceptibility to infection and less ability to respond in a timely and adequate manner.

While I don't want to debate the causality of global warming here desertification is a fact across many parts of the world, principally some the poorest. That combined with horrible local politics contributes to the existing famine we already witness as well as regional conflict. Once combined with diminished immunity from the spread of AIDS to many of these same populations it will make the rate of contagion (virulence) far greater for the disease *if* (more likely when) it mutates sufficiently to vector through perhaps even the 1918 pandemic. The impact on a global scale could be far more devastating than WWII and would rival anything imaginable in terms of global conflict. It will also most likely be brutal in victimizing any in the path not just *them* over there. We are looking a factors that are not merely contributory but increase the risks from this problem by significant orders of magnitude. The disease biology of the disease itself appears to be significantly more infectious and we have and are continuing to create conditions that make humanity considerably MORE vulnerable to the spread of the disease.

#32 Mind

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 03:36 PM

Have you never heard of neuraminidase inhibitors and M2 inhibitors? The problem is getting enough of these drugs fast enough to treat people in a pandemic.

Brian, if these were proven SAFE and EFFECTIVE, they would be in every pharmacy in the world already. Think about it from a monetary perspective. These would be the biggest profit generating drugs Big Pharma could ever dream of. Colds and Flus are a constant/chronic condition of human society. It would be a never ending revenue stream. If the history of protease inhibitors (and their use in treating AIDS) is any guide, then the cure is probably waaaay worse than the disease.

The mortality rate of bird flu is 50%. You cannot compare a virus like this to any flu you've ever had.

Until I see the case history, I do not believe the 50% percent. I want to take an in depth look at each death (supposedly there are only a handful) and control for age, weight, and other health variables. Then we could get a clear picture of the mortality rate. Here in the U.S. 40,000 people die from the flu each year, which is not a high mortality rate from a society-wide perspective, however, it is very high amonst the very young and very old. By the way, I have looked around in the past, but I have never seen a case by case breakdown of SARS, Bird Flu, Ebola, Hanta, West Nile...etc. Do you know where I can find that data?

#33 Lazarus Long

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 03:45 PM

(Mind)
Until I see the case history, I do not believe the 50% percent.


Then please read some of the articles and study I linked to above.

There have only been 116 cases of the current Bird Flu strain H5N1 and of those clearly identified and documented cases 60 are confirmed to have died regardless of the level of intervention. Actually more than 60 as some are still dying (65 as of a more recent count) and the core virus is spreading too fast to contain anymore.

As I tried to explain the current strain is not transmitted human to human, yet. It is still incubating in bird populations, both wild and domestic. It has already demonstrated the ability to be infectious to humans directly from them without any further incubation in an intermediary species, a dramatic mortality rate, and now only really lacks the time and conditions for the mutations necessary to take place and make it infectious between humans.

As per the recent revelations on the genome of the 1918 strain, this virus already demonstrates five of ten key mutations necessary to accomplish the leap to one of the most deadly AND virulent infections imaginable.

In other words it is halfway there already.

Now is the time to put out this fire before it spreads, not after.

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#34 Mind

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 03:54 PM

I just looked quickly at some CDC data. CDC Flu/Pneumonia data
The death rate for flu in the U.S. is less than 1 per 100,000 for persons age 1 to 34. It is 700 per 100,000 for ages over 85. This is 2002 data.

#35 Mind

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 04:07 PM

Actually more than 60 as some are still dying (65 as of a more recent count) and the core virus is spreading too fast to contain anymore.


I don't want to sound like some sort of polyanna, but this is the exact same thing I heard about SARS and many other "so-called" deadly, horrific, extremely contagious diseases in the last few years.

With SARS, it seemed to be the worst case scenario (based on hysterical media reports). It was supposedly highly contagious and extremely deadly. It crossed international boundaries. According to all the "so-called" virus experts, it should have been a pandemic. So either it was not that deadly, or not that contagious or both.

#36 Lazarus Long

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 04:08 PM

Links to articles and/or organizations that may have case studies
http://www.cdc.gov/f...-info/facts.htm

http://www.hon.ch/News/HSN/517591.html

http://usinfo.state....ianflufacts.pdf


This is already significantly outdated but much of it is still relevant to the discussion. Many of the most recent cases have not yet had their case studies formally published.

http://www.who.int/c.../avian_faqs/en/

Communicable Disease Surveillance & Response (CSR)

WHO: Communicable Disease Surveillance & Response (CSR)

Avian influenza frequently asked questions

29 January 2004

What is avian influenza?
What are the control measures in birds?
What are the consequences of outbreaks in poultry?
How do outbreaks of avian influenza spread within a country?
How does the disease spread from one country to another?
What is the present situation?
Why so much concern about the current outbreaks?
Is there evidence of efficient human-to-human transmission now?
Does human infection with H5N1 happen often?
Are all of the currently reported outbreaks in birds equally dangerous for humans?
Can a pandemic be averted?
Is it reassuring that so few human cases have occurred?
Are the right control measures being applied?
Apart from H5N1, have other avian influenza viruses ever infected humans?
Is there a vaccine effective against H5N1 in humans?
Are there drugs available for prevention and treatment?
Are presently available vaccines useful in averting an influenza pandemic?


What is avian influenza?

Avian influenza, or "bird flu", is a contagious disease of animals caused by viruses that normally infect only birds and, less commonly, pigs. While all bird species are thought to be susceptible to infection, domestic poultry flocks are especially vulnerable to infections that can rapidly reach epidemic proportions.

The disease in birds has two forms. The first causes mild illness, sometimes expressed only as ruffled feathers or reduced egg production. Of greater concern is the second form, known as “highly pathogenic avian influenza”. This form, which was first recognized in Italy in 1878, is extremely contagious in birds and rapidly fatal, with a mortality approaching 100%. Birds can die on the same day that symptoms first appear.

What are the control measures in birds?

The most important control measures are rapid destruction (“culling” or “stamping out”) of all infected or exposed birds, proper disposal of carcasses, and the quarantining and rigorous disinfection of farms.

The virus is killed by heat (56 degrees C for 3 hours or 60 degrees C for 30 minutes) and common disinfectants, such as fomalin and iodine compounds.

The virus can survive, at cool temperatures, in contaminated manure for at least three months. In water, the virus can survive for up to four days at 22 degrees C and more than 30 days at 0 degrees C. For the highly pathogenic form, studies have shown that a single gram of contaminated manure can contain enough virus to infect 1 million birds.

Restrictions on the movement of live poultry, both within and between countries, are another important control measure.

What are the consequences of outbreaks in poultry?

Outbreaks of avian influenza, especially the highly pathogenic form, can be devastating for the poultry industry and for farmers. For example, an outbreak of highly pathogenic avian influenza in the USA in 1983–1984, largely confined to the state of Pennsylvania, resulted in the destruction of more than 17 million birds at a cost of nearly US$ 65 million. Economic consequences can be especially devastating in developing countries where poultry raising is an important source of income – and of food – for impoverished rural farmers and their families.

When outbreaks become widespread within a country, control can be extremely difficult. For example, an outbreak that began in Mexico in 1992 was not completely controlled until 1995.

For these reasons, government authorities usually undertake aggressive emergency control measures as soon as an outbreak is detected.

How do outbreaks of avian influenza spread within a country?

Within a country, the disease spreads easily from farm to farm. Large amounts of virus are secreted in bird droppings, contaminating dust and soil. Airborne virus can spread the disease from bird to bird, causing infection when the virus is inhaled. Contaminated equipment, vehicles, feed, cages or clothing – especially shoes – can carry the virus from farm to farm. The virus can also be carried on the feet and bodies of animals, such as rodents, which act as “mechanical vectors” for spreading the disease. Limited evidence suggests that flies can also act as mechanical vectors.

Droppings from infected wild birds can introduce the virus into both commercial and backyard poultry flocks. The risk that infection will be transmitted from wild birds to domestic poultry is greatest where domestic birds roam freely, share a water supply with wild birds, or use a water supply that might become contaminated by droppings from infected wild-bird carriers.

So called “wet” markets, where live birds are sold under crowded and sometimes unsanitary conditions, can be another source of spread.

[/b]How does the disease spread from one country to another?[/b]

The disease can spread from country to country through international trade in live poultry. Migratory birds, including wild waterfowl, sea birds, and shore birds, can carry the virus for long distances and have, in the past, been implicated in the international spread of highly pathogenic avian influenza. Migratory waterfowl – most notably wild ducks – are the natural reservoir of bird flu viruses, and these birds are also the most resistant to infection. They can carry the virus over great distances, and excrete it in their droppings, yet develop only mild and short-lived illness.

Domestic ducks, however, are susceptible to lethal infections, as are turkeys, geese, and several other species raised on commercial or backyard farms.

What is the present situation?

Since mid-December 2003, a growing number of Asian countries have reported outbreaks of highly pathogenic avian influenza in chickens and ducks. Infections in several species of wild birds and in pigs have also been reported.

The rapid spread of highly pathogenic avian influenza, with outbreaks occurring at the same time in several countries, is historically unprecedented and of great concern for human health as well as for agriculture.

Particularly alarming, in terms of risks for human health, is the detection of a highly pathogenic strain, known as “H5N1”, as the cause of most of these outbreaks. H5N1 has jumped the species barrier, causing severe disease in humans, on two occasions in the recent past and is now doing so again, in gradually growing numbers, in Viet Nam and Thailand.

Why so much concern about the current outbreaks?

Public health officials are alarmed by the unprecedented outbreaks in poultry for several reasons. First, most – but not all – of the major outbreaks recently reported in Asia have been caused by the highly pathogenic H5N1 strain. There is mounting evidence that this strain has a unique capacity to jump the species barrier and cause severe disease, with high mortality, in humans.

A second and even greater concern is the possibility that the present situation could give rise to another influenza pandemic in humans. Scientists know that avian and human influenza viruses can exchange genes when a person is simultaneously infected with viruses from both species. This process of gene swapping inside the human body can give rise to a completely new subtype of the influenza virus to which few, if any, humans would have natural immunity. Moreover, existing vaccines, which are developed each year to match presently circulating strains and protect humans during seasonal epidemics, would not be effective against a completely new influenza virus.

If the new virus contains sufficient human genes, transmission directly from one person to another (instead of from birds to humans only) can occur. When this happens, the conditions for the start of a new influenza pandemic will have been met. Most alarming would be a situation in which person-to-person transmission resulted in successive generations of severe disease with high mortality.

This was the situation during the great influenza pandemic of 1918–1919, when a completely new influenza virus subtype emerged and spread around the globe, in around 4 to 6 months. Several waves of infection occurred over 2 years, killing an estimated 40–50 million persons.

Is there evidence of efficient human-to-human transmission now?

No. However, in Thailand, on 27 September 2004 the Ministry of Health announced possible human-to-human transmission in a family cluster. Thai officials have concluded that the mother could have acquired the infection either from some environmental source or while caring for her daughter, and that this represents a probable case of human-to-human transmission. While the investigation of this family cluster provides evidence that human-to-human transmission may have occurred, evidence to date indicates that transmission of the virus among humans has been limited to family members and that no wider transmission in the community has occurred. Continued vigilance is needed to determine whether the epidemiological situation in humans remains stable. (published 5.10.04)

Does human infection with H5N1 happen often?

No. Only very rarely. The first documented human infections with the H5N1 avian strain occurred in Hong Kong in 1997. In that first outbreak, 18 persons were hospitalized and 6 of them died. The source of infection in all cases was traced to contact with diseased birds on farms (1 case) and in live poultry markets (17 cases).

The human cases coincided with outbreaks of highly pathogenic H5N1 avian influenza in poultry. Very limited human-to-human transmission of the H5N1 strain was documented in health care workers, family members, poultry workers, and workers involved in culling operations. Though H5 antibodies were detected in these groups, indicating infection with the virus, no cases of severe disease occurred as a result. Antibodies were detected in 10% of the poultry workers studied, and in 3% of the cullers.

In February 2003, the H5N1 strain again jumped from birds to infect two members of a family (a father and his son) when they returned to Hong Kong following travel in southern China. The father died but the son recovered. A third member of the family, the boy’s sister, died of a severe respiratory illness in China. No samples were available for determining the cause of her death.

Are all of the currently reported outbreaks in birds equally dangerous for humans?

No. Outbreaks caused by the H5N1 strain are presently of the greatest concern for human health.

In assessing risks to human health, it is important to know exactly which avian virus strains are causing the outbreaks in birds. For example, the outbreak of avian influenza recently reported in Taiwan, China is caused by the H5N2 strain, which is not highly pathogenic in birds and has never been known to cause illness in humans. The outbreak recently announced in Pakistan is caused by H7 and H9 strains, and not by H5N1.

However, urgent control of all outbreaks of avian influenza in birds – even when caused by a strain of low pathogenicity – is of utmost importance. Research has shown that certain avian influenza virus strains, initially of low pathogenicity, can rapidly mutate (within 6 to 9 months) into a highly pathogenic strain if allowed to circulate in poultry populations.

Can a pandemic be averted?

No one knows for sure. Influenza viruses are highly unstable and their behaviour defies prediction. However, WHO remains optimistic that, if the right actions are taken quickly, an influenza pandemic can be averted. This is WHO’s foremost objective at present.

The first priority, and the major line of defence, is to reduce opportunities for human exposure to the largest reservoir of the virus: infected poultry. This is achieved through the rapid detection of poultry outbreaks and the emergency introduction of control measures, including the destruction all infected or exposed poultry stock, and the proper disposal of carcasses.

All available evidence points to an increased risk of transmission to humans when outbreaks of highly pathogenic avian H5N1 influenza are widespread in poultry. As the number of human infections grows, the risk increases that a new virus subtype could emerge, triggering an influenza pandemic. This link between widespread infection in poultry and increased risk of human infection is being demonstrated right now in Asia. All human cases and deaths detected so far are in two countries – Viet Nam and Thailand – with very widespread outbreaks in poultry.

WHO stresses the urgency of the situation and the need for rapid action in the animal and agricultural sectors. For example, the culling in 1997 of Hong Kong’s entire bird population – an estimated 1.5 million chickens and other birds – was done in 3 days. Again in 2003, the culling of nearly 30 million birds (out of a total bird population of 100 million) in the Netherlands was done within a week. Rapid action in both of these situations is thought by many influenza experts to have averted an influenza pandemic in humans.

Is it reassuring that so few human cases have occurred?

Yes. WHO has some evidence that the H5N1 strain may have been circulating in birds since April 2003. The detection so far of only a few human cases suggests that the virus may not be easily transmitted from birds to humans at present. However, the situation could change quickly, as the H5N1 strain has been shown to mutate rapidly and has a documented propensity to exchange genes with influenza viruses from other species.

In situations that could favour the emergence of a new pandemic strain of influenza virus, every case of human infection is one too many. In addition to the rapid destruction of infected animals, another opportunity to prevent human cases is through the protection of workers involved in culling operations. WHO has issued guidelines for conducting these operations safely.

Are the right control measures being applied?

In some cases, yes. Japan and the Republic of Korea appear to have controlled their outbreaks in poultry, quickly and safely. Studies of workers involved in culling operations have been conducted, and no cases of human infection have been detected. The situation in other countries is more problematic.

WHO is fully aware that governments in several countries with serious poultry outbreaks do not have the resources needed to introduce recommended protective measures for cullers or carry out the very rapid destruction of poultry flocks. In some of these countries, the practice of raising poultry on backyard farms in remote rural areas, which may not be registered with agricultural authorities, further complicates rapid and systematic elimination of the animal reservoir.

WHO, FAO, and OIE have jointly issued an urgent appeal to the international community to make adequate resources and other forms of support available quickly in the interest of protecting international public health.


Is there a vaccine effective against H5N1 in humans?

No. Currently available vaccines will not protect against disease caused by the H5N1 strain in humans. WHO is urgently working together with laboratories in the WHO Global Influenza Surveillance Network to develop a prototype H5N1 virus for use by leading vaccine manufacturers.

An available vaccine prototype virus, developed using the 2003 strain of H5N1 (which caused the two human cases in Hong Kong), cannot be used to expedite vaccine development. Initial analysis of the 2004 virus, conducted by laboratories in the WHO network, indicates that the virus has mutated significantly.

Are there drugs available for prevention and treatment?

Yes. Two classes of drugs are available. These are the M2 inhibitors (amantadine and rimantadine) and the neuraminidase inhibitors (oseltamivir and zanimivir). These drugs have been licensed for the prevention and treatment of human influenza in some countries, and are thought to be effective regardless of the causative strain.

However, initial analysis of viruses isolated from the recently fatal cases in Viet Nam indicates that the viruses are invariably resistant to the M2 inhibitors. Further testing is under way to confirm the resistance of amantadine. Network laboratories are also conducting studies to confirm the effectiveness of neuraminidase inhibitors against the current H5N1 strains.



#37 Lazarus Long

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 04:14 PM

(Mind)
With SARS, it seemed to be the worst case scenario (based on hysterical media reports). It was supposedly highly contagious and extremely deadly. It crossed international boundaries. According to all the "so-called" virus experts, it should have been a pandemic. So either it was not that deadly, or not that contagious or both.


Or as you are reluctant to credit and I assert above, many of the measures taken were effective at preventing the calamity and now many wish to deny the importance of those measures post facto.

Mind you are a weatherman; how often do people in the hurricane regions ignore warnings because probabilities are not certainties?

How often do we reach a point in the social analysis where there is a kind of crisis fatigue ("crying wolf") when people say we have heard all this before and nothing happened?

All it takes is ignoring the threat once at the wrong time (as we've already seen this summer) to have catastrophic result.

Perhaps it is more rational to be looking at the SARS example as a dry run when we got much of it right and won one round instead of a reason to drop our guard.

#38 Mind

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 04:44 PM

It has already infected large scale population of migratory birds, not just domestic populations where draconian measures offer some limited protection. The biology of the spread for this disease is also about the demographics of human migrations. In a society significantly more global than in 1918 (the sheer numbers of people moving, the speed at which they do so, and the increased number of crossed paths and destinations) it will be impossible to contain the disease in the third world even if that were such a culpable intent.


If this is any thing similar to the "so called" spread of West Nile across the U.S. then it is not something I am worried about. West Nile was most obviously an "epidemic of testing". The current unrealistic and silly theory about West Nile is that it spread across the U.S. in birds and mosquitos in 3 years. In my view, what happenned is that the West Nile virus spread across the world 20 times over. It has been in the U.S. for more than a century, and when testing became more prevalent, viola, we found West Nile. As testing spread across the country so did discovery.

And another thing about the spread of viruses around the world...I view it as a net positive. I see it as a "societal immune system" analogous to our individual immune systems.

In the past, according to viral historians, devastating disease outbreaks happenned about 7 or 8 times per century, but none have happenned since 1918 (1968-69 wasn't all that bad as compared to historical outbreaks). My theory for why devastating disease outbreaks almost never occur nowadays is precisely because of the fluid travel between socities. In the past, when societies were isolated, they developed natural resistence to viruses in their local area, whereas other parts of the world were vulnerable. Europeans travelling to America is a great example. Native americans died by the millions because they did not have a natural immunity to European diseases.

In today's world the flu, cold, and other viruses travel around the world each year. Each year the viruses mutate, have a slightly different surface topology, etc. and people get ill. Sadly, some die, but most of us develop a stronger immunity. It is a gradual process. In fact, during the 20th century we had the best of both worlds to keep our societal immune system healthy. Large portions of society were agrarian and were in constant contact with animals (where some viruses incubate), people ate more natural/organic food (again keeping in contact with natural microbes), and travel around the world became easy. Things are changing nowadays and if worldwide quartines are put into effect, I think we will become more susceptible to disease. If we continue to move apart from the natural world, then we need better "unnatural" defenses against viruses. And this brings me back to my main beef, after 50 years of virus research, we have nothing but quarantine and vaccination as weapons. In my local area I have seen little evidence that the flu shot has prevented anyone from getting ill. I have little faith that any future vaccine will be effective or timely enough to save people.

#39 Mind

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Posted 09 October 2005 - 04:50 PM

Or as you are reluctant to credit and I assert above, many of the measures taken were effective at preventing the calamity and now many wish to deny the importance of those measures post facto.


My point is that the "so-called" experts said that once SARS left the incubation area, there was nothing we could do. It would be a global pandemic. They were wrong. That is the difference between hurricane predictions and these hysterical pandemic predictions. There was certainty about what would happen if a major hurricane struck New Orleans. It happenned just as everyone predicted. Obviously the predictions of the "so-called" virus experts have been wrong, time after time after time. In fact, they have been spectacularly wrong. Nowadays I take their predictions with a huge grain of salt. I no longer have blind faith in their abilities or predictions. It is not rational to do so.

#40 sally

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 03:17 PM

What about the possibility of using high dose IV vitamin C as a treatment for Avian Flu for instance? Please see the link below .
http://www.orthomed.com/bird.htm

#41 bgwowk

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 03:36 PM

Mind wrote:

Brian, if these (drugs that treat flu) were proven SAFE and EFFECTIVE, they would be in every pharmacy in the world already.

They ARE in every pharmacy in the world already! Or at least they were until a few months ago when people bought practically all existing inventory to prepare for bird flu. Now governments are buying new supplies as fast as drugs companies can make them as first-line treatment for health care workers.

---BrianW

#42 biknut

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 02:27 PM

JON RAPPOPORT www.nomorefakenews.com



AVIAN FLU HYSTERIA REACHES NEW PEAK

OCTOBER 8, 2005. The Bush administration is climbing on the bird-flu bandwagon with all hands and feet, suggesting a larger role for the military in the "inevitable" global pandemic that will lay the US low.

Quarantines are high on the list of strategies.

If you read The NY Times article below, you'll notice several things.

The GLOBAL toll for human bird flu now stands at about 100 cases, with 60 deaths. In other words, more people have died from being hit by phone books dropping out of 10th-story windows. To infer a global pandemic from these stats should earn any scientist a quick trip to a job washing dishes at Burger King.

The US Secretary of Health and Human Services states (far down in the Times piece) that the current avian flu strain is not likely to be the bug that does the job.

Massive production of vaccines is urged---despite the fact that such vaccine would not be able to target the eventual killer strain of the flu virus. (And of course, such vaccines aren't effective and safe anyway.)

The "debate" about who gets the vaccine first, the debate about which government agencies should lead the response to a pandemic that will kill millions, the debate about how extensive the quarantines should be---all of these sober deliberations put the PR cherry on the cake: "Well, if they're arguing about those factors, the pandemic itself is certainly a done deal, it's going to happen."

Yeah. That's the whole point of PR. Sell the core fantasy behind a welter of weighty and official statements.

The Times article doesn't mention that even these 100 cases of human bird flu and the 60 deaths have never been accorded the public scrutiny they deserve. What tests were run to find the virus in the patients? How accurate were the tests? Did they locate antibodies or the actual virus? If the actual virus, in what quantities did the virus reside in the bodies of the human beings?

These are all absolutely key questions, and they have not been answered.

It's quite possible that there are NO cases of human bird flu.

Further, what was the PRIOR condition of the patients before the supposed flu virus attacked? Were these people already suffering from weak immune systems? In that case, any old germ can sweep through and cause severe or lethal infections.

Beyond even these considerations, there is the background premise that animal germs can and do mutate to allow them to infect and kill humans. This is a shaky piece of science, and it can only be confirmed or denied by actually investigating every single presumptive human case in great depth. We have no evidence that this has been done. Then, on top of that, proof would have to be offered that the germ in question really did mutate from animal hosts.

Some time ago, I published official figures from both the CDC and the American Lung Association, which showed that the canned figure of 36,000 annual flu deaths in the US is a lie. The figure is more like 800-1000. And then, we would need that same in-depth study of the patients to confirm even such low numbers.

If evidence is any indicator, as opposed to PR and scare tactics, there is no reason to suspect that avian flu is going to cause human problems.

As for all the animals that have been killed worldwide, most of them of course have been slaughtered to PREVENT the spread the avian flu. They haven't died FROM the flu germ. And the real reason for epidemics among farm animals (there are ALWAYS such epidemics on the march) is: these animals are raised in the most desolate and repellent conditions imaginable: overcrowded pens; feces everywhere; huge dusting with toxic antibiotics...

In such conditions, any old germ can spread and finish off large numbers of animals.

Huge presence of the military; widespread quarantines; government commands to citizens; compulsory vaccines; all based on no facts. What does this sound like to you?

#43 bgwowk

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 04:15 PM

Beyond even these considerations, there is the background premise that animal germs can and do mutate to allow them to infect and kill humans. This is a shaky piece of science, and it can only be confirmed or denied by actually investigating every single presumptive human case in great depth. We have no evidence that this has been done. Then, on top of that, proof would have to be offered that the germ in question really did mutate from animal hosts.

This statement is so absurd that you might as was well argue that a round Earth is shaky science. I'm not even going to discuss it. I just want the average reader to know that the scientific literacy level of the above message is somewhere below that of UFO abduction theories.

---BrianW

#44 Mind

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 10:52 PM

They ARE in every pharmacy in the world already! Or at least they were until a few months ago when people bought practically all existing inventory to prepare for bird flu. Now governments are buying new supplies as fast as drugs companies can make them as first-line treatment for health care workers.

Is this thread a moot point then? All we need to do is make more inhibitors, and all colds and flus are gone? That is hard to believe.

Also, this from the CDC website that Laz offered a link to

The H5N1 virus currently infecting birds in Asia that has caused human illness and death is resistant to amantadine and rimantadine, two antiviral medications commonly used for influenza. Two other antiviral medications, oseltamavir and zanamavir, would probably work to treat flu caused by the H5N1 virus, though studies still need to be done to prove that they work.



#45 Mind

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 11:10 PM

Sorry Laz, I looked at your links but there was no detailed case histories of the fatalities, only anecdotal evidence of age and health.

Biknut does have a point about possible other infections that come along with the environment that the victims are living in. Just reading the anecdotal evidence presented by Laz, I would think there are a whole host of diseases that could be amplifying the problems caused by the flu. The victims are usually living with live uncaged birds(and dead undisposed carcasses), frequently handling bird excrement, and eating raw eggs and poultry. Even here in the U.S. the "real" cause of death from the flu is other microbes that take over once the flu has weakened the immune system....most often pneumonia.

Biknut also has a point that when the media reports the numbers of birds that have died from the flu, they all use the total of infected plus those that were slaughtered (the number du jour is 100 million). Similar to the lack of detailed case histories, I can find no listing of the number of birds that were confirmed infected (CDC or WHO)...not even a statistical analysis of the percentage in any bird popualtion that dies from the flu.

Also, H5N1 was "first" discovered in 1961, and has probably been around much longer than that. I just can't accept the premise that this virus has been around for more than 40 years, and just now we need to go into "hysterical" mode, because it is going to ravage the world. According to the CDC:

Influenza A (H5N1) virus – also called “H5N1 virus” – is an influenza A virus subtype that occurs mainly in birds. It was first isolated from birds (terns) in [b]South Africa[b] in 1961. Like all bird flu viruses, H5N1 virus circulates among birds worldwide, is very contagious among birds, and can be deadly.

I know, everyone says it is mutating, but if its rate of mutation is similar to other flu's then our immune systems have time to adjust. The only way it could cause a pandemic where 100s of millions of people die is if it suddenly aquired several mutations that made it completely foreign to every human's immune system....and again given the history of modern disease/flu transmission, this seems highly, highly unlikely.

I just want to re-iterate a warning to people that more often than not, irrational actions taken during a moment of societal hysteria can be much worse than the supposed threat.

#46 Lazarus Long

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Posted 11 October 2005 - 11:35 PM

... I would think there are a whole host of diseases that could be amplifying the problems caused by the flu. The victims are usually living with live uncaged birds (and dead undisposed carcasses), frequently handling bird excrement, and eating raw eggs and poultry. Even here in the U.S. the "real" cause of death from the flu is other microbes that take over once the flu has weakened the immune system....most often pneumonia.


Again Mind that is the whole point, it is within these mixed populations that the mutations have the greatest chance of developing. There is no argument between us on that point, it is simply that *normally* there are intermediary host species, usually pigs or pets where the virus first incubates and mutates on an annual or seasonal basis. Often we can treat these or obtain vaccines from them ahead of the annual pandemic. We also have been inoculating millions of the most vulnerable every year and that too has greatly reduced mortality.

In the case of the current Bird Flu what we face is that it is highly virulent bird to bird, is infecting wild populations and is not yet that infectious to humans except that it has already demonstrated the ability to jump directly from birds to humans. That is the first step, now if the original *primary* host OR the secondary human one are available for the worst case mutation to occur in with respect to *modern* populations such that it becomes directly *virulent* (human to human transmission) then it adopts the same basic environmental and demographic vectors for virulence that the previous 1918 example did and becomes dangerously pandemic.

The risk is not in H5N1 specifically, it is that H5N1 could continue to mutate into a new variant that is far more infectious and retain its current pathology, resistance and mortality rate. Such types of mutations are a normal aspect of the annual epidemiology for influenza.

What is very interesting is that we finally have the 1918 version available for comparison and that one shows some striking similarities. The previous strain has not been generally present for generations so there is no reason to presume a current resistance to a similar variant that mutates out of present day strains of Bird Flu like H5N1.

The issue you raise about other diseases is relevant post facto but not really material before the fact. Other opportunistic infections can always make the problems worse but they are not necessarily contributing to viral genetics before the fact. It is the evolutionary dynamic involved that is at issue and if you credit natural selection processes at work then the risk of allowing the Bird Flu the opportunity to mutate outweighs any rational benefit. That is how this becomes an economic dilemma.

Viruses don't really share *plasmids* the way bacteria do (please let's not get too bogged down in bacterial phage genetic transcription) and the issue is more about opportunistic mutations that haven't happened yet but are clearly genetically possible within the host populations over relatively short time spans of years to decades. That is why the WHO and CDC are advocating such draconian measures to PREVENT the chance that strains like H5N1 ever have the chance to mutate.

We don't want to fight this scourge afterward when prevention was the far more effective tactic. It is however not a popular one and it will never be because of the hardship that will be imposed on many groups and not shared by those that truly benefit in the industrialized world.

#47 Lazarus Long

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 04:06 PM

Here is a link to Cosmos' post with the opinion piece by Kurzweil and Joy. It seems relevant to this discussion.

NYTimes Op-ed: Recipe for Destruction

#48

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 04:11 PM

Greece confirms first case of bird flu

"Authorities in Greece today confirmed the country’s first case of bird flu, on a turkey farm on the Aegean Sea island of Oinouses near the Turkish coast."

#49 Mind

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 11:26 PM

It is however not a popular one and it will never be because of the hardship that will be imposed on many groups and not shared by those that truly benefit in the industrialized world.


You bring up a good point Laz, plus the old saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". The "ounce" alludes to the fact that one should take simple, effective, and commonsense approaches to threats in order to ward off worse problems in the future. As you allude to above, for people in Singapore it seems like a couple pounds of prevention, not an ounce. What the industrialized world is trying to convince Singapore to do is a very radical transformation of their society. To stop having birds as pets and stop eating poultry. What do you think Americans would do if Singapore told them to kill all their pet dogs and stop eating beef....tomorrow!? If you said nothing, go to the head of the class. In Singapore they have been living with birds and any diseases they carry for thousands of years, and nothing has wiped them out yet. Why should they believe the WHO now?

#50 Mind

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 11:39 PM

Another thing. It is estimated that 675,000 people in the US died in the 1918 flu outbreak. That means 99.35 percent lived through it. While 675,000 (.0065 percent of the population) is an enormous tragedy, it is not the end of the world. If you take into account the factors I mentioned earlier (no antibiotics, poor sanitation, poor nutrition, and poor healthcare), the 657,000 estimate is much much higher than what would occur in today's world. The bird flu will not be the end of the world. Kurzweil and Joy are waaaaaay overreacting. There are much more deadly threats that might be cooked up nouveau in a lab by humans hands than any natural pathogen that has come before. And while we are fighting natural threats with mostly 50 year old weapons (vaccine and quarantine) the new unnatural threat will grow unhindered.

#51 Mind

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 11:43 PM

That is why the WHO and CDC are advocating such draconian measures to PREVENT the chance that strains like H5N1 ever have the chance to mutate.


Unless they can quarantine the entire world and kill every bird, they are pissing into the wind. It is ridiculous to think that anyone could prevent any virus from mutating or spreading. I guarantee there are viruses in my body right now that are mutating...there is no way to stop it....its nature and we are bound to it....for the time being.

#52 biknut

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 04:44 AM

Bird flu sparking human epidemic is 'science fiction': Spain
Oct 19 11:09 AM US/Eastern
Email this story

Spain's agriculture minister dismissed fears bird flu sparking a global epidemic among humans as "science fiction", saying the virus currently only poses a threat to birds.

"The idea of a pandemic among humans is something from science fiction," Spanish Agricultural Minister Elena Espinosa said on the private radio station Cadena Ser, as Europe braced for the further spread of the H5N1 strain of the bird flu, which has killed 60 people in Asia during the past three years.



Outbreaks of the H5N1 strain have been confirmed in Romania and Turkey, while further tests are being conducted on a suspect case in Greece.

Currently the bird flu is "solely and exclusively a veterinary problem," said Espinosa.

Human infections in Asia were "in very specific poultry raising situations where the families lived with the chickens and infection was due to constant inhalation," Espinosa said.

While H5N1 currently does not spread easily between people, many scientists fear that it may combine with seasonal influenza in humans, mutating into an easily transmissible form that could kill millions like in the 1918 influenza pandemic.

However, Espinosa announced increased surveillance measures and that the stockpile of bird flu vaccine for chickens would be doubled to 10 million doses.

She said a quarantine would be set up around any suspected bird flu outbreaks, with poultry in nearby areas receiving vaccinations.

The Spanish government decided Tuesday to buy six to 10 million doses of anti-viral drugs for groups most at risk for human flu.

http://www.breitbart...2.ke81exhc.html

#53 enigma

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 02:56 PM

What is the probability, on any given day, of the avian influenza virus mutating with a human flu virus to become easily transferable between humans , causing a pandemic?

All the below conditions must be satisfied in order to cause a Global Avian influenza pandemic to result from the above.

A) someone with a human influenza virus gets bird flu at the same time.
B) That strain combines with the human flu virus and mutates into a virus which is easily transferable between humans.
C) The new virus is transferred between humans causing an outbreak.
D) There is a failure to contain the outbreak.

Im going to do some very very rough estimates, I suspect leaning towards the pessimistic, though I really dont have a good enough
idea to make these estimates and anyone is free to be critical of the figures, as many are probably highly innacurate.

A)

Around 10 percent of people catch a human strain of flu each year, for an average of, say 7 days.
So at any given time there is a .1 times 7 divided by 365 days in the year chance of a person having a human strain of flu.
That is .1 * 7/365 = 0.19%

Now, at a guess, lets say that because people with regular flu have a weakened immune system, they are 10 times as likely to
catch avian influenza in situations where they are susceptible to do so, however because they are sick, they are half as
likely to be in these situations.

Lets guess that in the next 12 months, there are 120 human infections of H5N1. There have been that many human infections in history.

So, if these guesstimates were true, there is a .19% (chance of human flu) * (10 increased chance of catching avian flu)
* (.5 half the chance of being in situations where catching avian flu is possible) of the next person who catches bird flu to
also have human influenza. = .19% * 10 *.5 = .95%

.95%

assuming there is 120 cases in the next year, thats an average of 1 case in 3 days and so, its .95%/3 = .3166% chance of A) occuring

.3166% chance of A) occuring on any given day.

B)

No idea what the probability of this is but say that it is 1/3, then thats .3166%/3 = .1055%

.1055% chance of B) occuring on any given day.

C)

The person might be a hermit and die very suddenly, or they might be contained in hospital before the virus mutates, who knows

but lets say the chance of outbreak from this person is 90%, thats .1055 *.9 = .09498% chance of outbreak on any given day.

D)

The WHO is stockpiling Tamiflu and has a plan to deploy Tamiflu to everyone in affected areas in the event of an outbreak,
the government of the country would likely try to contain the area, its difficult to tell the probability of success in
containing an outbreak, but lets say its not good and there is an 85% chance that the outbreak will not be contained.

thats .09498% * 85% = .08% = chance of the events of any day leading to a global avian influenza pandemic caused by a mutation of the H5N1 when
combined with a human influenza virus.


.08% chance of global pandemic being caused by this series of events on any given day.

#54 John Schloendorn

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Posted 17 January 2006 - 01:46 AM

there was no detailed case histories of the fatalities, only anecdotal evidence of age and health

Nature news now confirms that people have started dying from this in east Europe, although not as many as according to Laz' "anecdotal evidence" from October. They also report a mutation that supposedly increases the strain's affinity for human vs. poultry receptors and shifts the tissue distribution towards the upper respiratory system, which may increase transmissibility. http://www.nature.co.../060109-14.html

#55 Mind

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 01:41 AM

I was just posting a new story about influenza and came across this old thread. Nice to dredge these things up as a historical reference. I am amazed at how much of a rebel I was back then (4 years ago). While it would seem that all the hysteria (and it was quite a major media hysteria) about the bird flu was overblown, I have softened my view of the so-called "virus experts" as I have learned a bit more about the immune system and viruses. I still think our "societal immune system" is a good defense against new pathogens. Easy travel around the world make sure that new - slightly mutated viruses - affect a lot of people and this makes it more likely that each one of us can survive the next version. If we remained isolated then we wouldn't have a resistance to new mutations.

West Nile Virus is mentioned in this thread as well. Now that one was truly a media generated hysteria in my view. It is much much less deadly than the flu (in fact death from West Nile is quite rare), yet there were 2 or 3 years where it dominated media headlines. To this day I think there is a serious mis-allocation of resources with all the study and monitoring of West Nile. However, mosquito control does have some other benefits.

#56 niner

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 04:33 AM

Easy travel around the world make sure that new - slightly mutated viruses - affect a lot of people and this makes it more likely that each one of us can survive the next version. If we remained isolated then we wouldn't have a resistance to new mutations.

Is this putting the cart before the horse, or something? Easy travel also ensures that a truly lethal virus will be spread far and wide. Imagine if there were a virus like HIV, except that it was spread by casual contact and was very contagious. Everyone would get infected, and no one would know it until years later when we all started getting weird diseases and dropping dead. By that time, it would be too late to do anything. The only people who would be safe would be those who lived in remote areas, out of contact with others, or perhaps extreme loners and hermits, and anyone who had a natural resistance.

As population densities go up and travel becomes ever more common, infectious agents represent a serious threat to humanity which will only subside when medical science advances sufficiently to counteract them before they take us out.

#57 Mind

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Posted 25 April 2009 - 07:51 PM

Niner, your scenario is not backed up by historical evidence. The evidence seems to point toward isolated communities being the most susceptible to new diseases and having suffered the most in the past. Some have estimated over 90% of native americans were wiped out by diseases carried by Europeans. They didn't have antibodies to these BECAUSE they were isolated. Living isolated in today's society is dangerous as well as unrealistic. We live in a connected world and we need new strategies to combat infectious disease. The "super bug" scenario is possible, no doubt, but sitting in a clean room (bubble) and never interacting with people is just not going to work.

World travel by human's (along with virus travel) has been going on for hundreds of years, and has only intensified since the 1918 flu, yet we haven't had any super bugs kill off the human race. Living isolated would mean that some populations would develop immunity (over time) to specific lethal pathogens. The minute they traveled somewhere else in the world they would be akin to a walking pandemic. With people traveling all over the world, we are all developing some degree of immunity to a large variety of pathogens. I think living connected is the best strategy right now for society as a whole. In the meantime we can work on new strategies to prevent the "super bug" scenario.

#58 Yukirin

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:19 PM

Restarted the Avian Flu research. http://gizmodo.com/5...eered-avian-flu

#59 Yukirin

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:27 PM

Niner, your scenario is not backed up by historical evidence. The evidence seems to point toward isolated communities being the most susceptible to new diseases and having suffered the most in the past. Some have estimated over 90% of native americans were wiped out by diseases carried by Europeans. They didn't have antibodies to these BECAUSE they were isolated. Living isolated in today's society is dangerous as well as unrealistic. We live in a connected world and we need new strategies to combat infectious disease. The "super bug" scenario is possible, no doubt, but sitting in a clean room (bubble) and never interacting with people is just not going to work.

World travel by human's (along with virus travel) has been going on for hundreds of years, and has only intensified since the 1918 flu, yet we haven't had any super bugs kill off the human race. Living isolated would mean that some populations would develop immunity (over time) to specific lethal pathogens. The minute they traveled somewhere else in the world they would be akin to a walking pandemic. With people traveling all over the world, we are all developing some degree of immunity to a large variety of pathogens. I think living connected is the best strategy right now for society as a whole. In the meantime we can work on new strategies to prevent the "super bug" scenario.


I think the "Living connected" strategy is great for viruses that mutate naturally with nature where we can get used to it. But they are making the avian flu mutate at an alarming rate in labs so that if it does go into society we would have no defense. Thats what i think anyways from what ive read.

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#60 Logic

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:42 PM

I speak under correction, but believe my research to be correct:
  • Flu virii are lipid coated.
  • The lipid coating serves the dual purpose of hiding the virus from the immune system and enabling it to attach to a cell and infect it.
  • Thus stripping said lipid layer of the virus will result in it floating about ineffectually, if not immediatly killed by the immune system.
  • Lauric Acid aka. Monolaurin, in Coconut Oil and BHT are both proven to strip said lipid layers of lipid coated virii......................

You may be interested in looking up a list of lipid coated virii to find out what other nasty diseases you can stop panicing about! :cool:
AIDS for instance!

Also note that BHT has been shown to increase lifespan in rats by 30%




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