85 replies to this topic

[ScienceGuy]

There's more to it than just a dirty fight of insulting criticisms,

Well thank you for confirming what I already had ascertained which is that you are seeking to pick a fight with me. Please kindly note that I have no interest in fighting with you; and furthermore, there is no need for you to fight with me either; nor persist with the insults.

I guess you don't have answers to my questions…

I was under the impression that I had already provided the answers to all your questions…

Perhaps you might like to re-read through my replies?

you're only seeing what you want to see…

Not at all; I have already stated that I can see matters from your perspective. To clarify, with regards to your referring to natural HERBAL EXTRACTS and FOODSTUFFS, such as fructose, as DRUGS, I fully understand your rationale that any substance which has a PHARMACOLOGICAL or PHYSIOLOGICAL effect could be viewed as being a “DRUG” due to possessing said PHARMACOLOGICAL or PHYSIOLOGICAL effect(s); however, I have already stated my reasons for suggesting that you re-think your perspective on this matter.

The drug debate was boring, and you are completely wrong, so too are the doctors; all chemicals are drugs irrespective of whether or not they occur in plants or are synthesized in a lab.

With the utmost respect, you were the one to instigate and then pursue the “drug debate”, so if you found it “boring” then why on earth keen barking on about it like a dog with a bone, instead of letting the matter rest and focusing on matters more relevant to the topic of this thread?

Arguing over definition aside; you appear to be unaware that it is wholly irresponsible to be preaching that natural HERBAL EXTRACTS and FOODSTUFFS are DRUGS due to the very serious potential ramifications on their saleability and hence their availability to purchase by the general public should they be consequently reclassified as DRUGS, and hence require firstly a MEDICINAL LICENSE to sell, and secondly A PRESCRIPTION to purchase.

There have in fact already been numerous attempts, and there are others currently going on right now, wherein certain parties have been seeking to make this happen, both in EUROPE and in the UNITED STATES.

For example, there was a little piece of legislation called the EUROPEAN FOOD SUPPLEMENTS DIRECTIVE which had to be legally challenged at the EUROPEAN COURT to prevent it from essentially banning the sale of many VITAMINS and MINERALS and any such FOOD SUPPLEMENT containing them.

Further to this there have been several other bills and or items of legislation that have been sought to be brought into force that would similarly affect the sale and subsequent availability to the general public of natural HERBS and HERBAL EXTRACTS too.

Therefore, whilst you might think you are being somewhat ‘clever’ in preaching your view that all natural herbal extracts and foodstuffs are DRUGS, the fact of the matter is you are not.

I reiterate, it is wholly irresponsible to be preaching that natural herbal extracts and foodstuffs are DRUGS; and you are not in fact being at all clever by doing so.

Or do you perhaps agree with the bureaucrats backed by the pharmaceutical companies that any and all VITAMINS, MINERALS and HERBS / HERBAL EXTRACTS should be banned from sale to the general public, and made available via MEDICINAL LICENSE and hence PRESCRIPTION from your doctor?

Since we appear to be going round in circles, might I suggest that with regards to the “drug debate” that we simply agree to disagree, and shake hands as friends?

The intelligent part in my opinion was related to ashwagandha and half life and cycling…

There exists conclusive substantiated evidence that indicates that ASHWAGANDHA’s ANXIOLYTIC effect is due to its mechanism of action as a GABA RECEPTOR AGONIST. I have provided you with examples of published clinical studies that demonstrate this.

I have also confirmed that at the present time we do not have confirmed what is the half-life of the respective PHYTOCHEMICAL(S) responsible for its GABA RECEPTOR AGONISM or other actions.

In spite of this, with helpful intent, I have suggested a CYLING REGIMEN with starting (not to be confused with ideal) ON / OFF duration of 5 DAYS ON, followed by 2 DAYS OFF; to be adjusted accordingly using manifestation of TOLERANCE as marker, such that TOLERANCE is eliminated, and only beneficial therapeutic effects are experienced.

In short, I have answered all your questions, provided you with comprehensive information, and offered some helpful suggestions.

This should be sufficient for you; if it isn’t, then you are clearly being deliberately obtuse and argumentative as part of your continued effort to pick a fight with me.

As such, there is simply nothing further to discuss, unless of course you wish to ask me something else?

I am still sure I shall win in the sense of being more knowledgeable and less dogmatic…
…to which you supplied every dogmatic answer in your arsenal. Good luck to your in your dogmatic adventures.

With helpful intent I have presented facts and suggestions, backed up by substantiated science; how in any regard does that qualify as being DOGMATIC?

Meaning no insult, you really need to read this:

dogmatic

adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or of the nature of a dogma or dogmas; doctrinal.
2.
asserting opinions in a doctrinaire or arrogant manner; opinionated.

With the utmost respect, you seem to be as misguided as to the definition of DOGMATIC as you are DRUGS; since, it is in fact you who are the one, not I, who is being both “opinionated” and “asserting opinions in a doctrinaire or arrogant manner”.

Here is just one of many examples of this: “you are completely wrong, so too are the doctors; all chemicals are drugs irrespective of whether or not they occur in plants or are synthesized in a lab.”

Suffice to say, I believe what we have here is an excellent example of ‘the pot calling the kettle black’.

I should probably ask these questions to someone more knowledgeable and open-minded than yourself if I hope to achieve good results, as it seems you come on these forums primarily for attention, not to pass on knowledge to your fellow inquirer.

Again you only do yourself a disservice with such insults and false accusations, which I will choose to simply ignore.

You only have to review a fraction of my many other threads and posts to see how much of a fallacy your accusations are. See this thread of mine as just a singular example of my contribution to this forum, which in itself demonstrates the fact that my motives are NOT in fact “for attention, not to pass on knowledge to your fellow inquirer”: TREATING ANXIETY SAFELY & EFFECTIVELY

If you want to run away from my questions and justify such behavior by labeling me as "rude, uncongenial, etc", that is your choice, and indeed many people run away from such debates… yet I will not respect such a one as you who flees good debates because they become provocative and challenging…

Ditch the wholly unwarranted attacks and puerile insults and I will happily answer your questions for you; attack me and insult me without any warranting whatsoever and I will not; plain and simple.

I do not in fact run away from debates. I typically take considerable time to reply comprehensively whenever possible or appropriate, as you will see from my many posts in both this and other threads to date.

I simply ask that posts be kept on an intellectual level that is above that of schoolyard name calling and bullying tactics. Such behaviour will only serve to lower other peoples’ opinion of you; and mean that the target of your insults will not be especially motivated to spend their valuable time comprehensively replying to your questions. Be nice, and they will.

I am working on becoming more congenial, but given my childhood, it is very difficult to be more sympathetic than critical. Read through my posts...you'll see I'm an asshole struggling to be nice. If you don't wish to sympathize with me on this point, I won't make any additional effort to try to win your loyalty, and I'm content for you to see me as how you do.

Firstly, I don’t think you are an “asshole”; I think you are simply an angry person who finds it difficult to communicate without attacking the other person, even when there is no cause for you to do so, as in this particular instance.

However, don’t take this the wrong way, but you cannot use your childhood as an excuse for bad behaviour today. I have a close friend who was beaten up by his alcoholic father for years, then ended up in a foster home where he was sexually abused, before running away at aged 15 to live by himself, and he’s the nicest guy you’d ever meet. And for what it’s worth I myself had a terrible childhood; and yet this is what created in me my passionate desire to improve the quality of the lives of others.

Bad past experiences can be like a ball and chain around your ankle in that they will impede your quality of life if you let them; you need to cut them loose.

I’ve treated many people for ADDICTION in the past, so trust me I never just a book by its cover.

You are clearly an intelligent chap; if you need to vent your anger it’s better to go down your local gym and beat up a boxing punch-bag, than to hurl insults at complete strangers on Internet forums.

See, I'm not the only one who can fight fire with fire if I want =P.

With regards to your analogy, you are in fact the only one using “fire” and who wishes to “fight”.

Like I have already said I won’t be baited into having a “fight” with you; nor will you find me attacking you with “fire”.

So, I would genially request that you please kindly ditch the anger, stop with the attacks and insults, and let’s keep things in line with the spirit of this forum, namely adult, intelligent debate. Reserve your mudslinging for YOUTUBE please, as it quite simply won’t be tolerated here, OK?

Edited by ScienceGuy, 01 July 2012 - 11:26 AM.

[machete234]

Did anybody get bad withdrawels from this in the meantime, its alsmost too good to be true.
Im using it for a few weeks now.

[Introspecta]

Wow I forgot about this thread. I think i'd have to side with the Science Dude in that Herbs are not drugs. Drugs are man made and herbs are well made by God/Jah/Source/Mother Nature/Divinity although sometimes they may be put into tinctures with alcohol in which now you are taking herb and drug. Anyways that being said still to this day I have not noticed any withdrawal from good ol Ash. Its been awhile since I've taken it now but in the past never an issue. I think I will have to pick up some now that I am re-inspired to look into it some more and enjoy the benefits I always get after taking some time off.

[machete234]

For me I get headaches when I dose this too low, when I take like 300-400mg that seems to be the perfect evening dose.

The problem is when I take a lot during the day + some more in the evening to sleep I feel bad the next day pretty much like a withdrawel.
Yesterday I had to take a long acting benzo to get the heart rate down.
(Im slightly addicted to that stuff but dosing about once a week when I have muscle tension and feel bad hardly is a full blown addiction)

So at least I should dose always the same dose and only in the evening, I dont buy into ASW being an adaptogen anymore.

Edited by machete234, 17 November 2012 - 11:12 AM.

[Galaxyshock]

I dont buy into ASW being an adaptogen anymore.

I agree that it's not pure adaptogen. I consider Ashwagandha medicinal herb with adaptogenic qualities. It has a lot of potential but should be used cautiously and avoid those very potent extracts that turn this to more of a drug. Himalaya brand Ashwangandha is mild but well balanced and won't get you in trouble. I'm using it one caplet in the morning at the moment.

[SuperjackDid_]

I up dose to 4G /day ,i notice increased in anxiety this mean tolerance ?

[Galaxyshock]

I up dose to 4G /day ,i notice increased in anxiety this mean tolerance ?

Is the anxiety there when you haven't taken the dose or is it induced by the consumption?

If you have anxiety in the absence of the herb, it may be downregulated GABA-receptors.

if the anxiety increases after taking it, it may be some of the stimulative qualities of Ashwagandha like increased thyroid hormones causing it (very likely).

[SuperjackDid_]

I up dose to 4G /day ,i notice increased in anxiety this mean tolerance ?

Is the anxiety there when you haven't taken the dose or is it induced by the consumption?

If you have anxiety in the absence of the herb, it may be downregulated GABA-receptors.

if the anxiety increases after taking it, it may be some of the stimulative qualities of Ashwagandha like increased thyroid hormones causing it (very likely).

Yes ,i suspected gaba -down ,i prone to have anxiety than before now .

Anything help up-regulate gaba receptor during Ashwagandha withdrawal then?

Edited by Nootropix, 23 November 2012 - 04:23 PM.

[Introspecta]

How long have you been taking the herb? I've heard of some people having rebound anxiety from this but it definitely wouldn't be considered withdrawal.

[SuperjackDid_]

How long have you been taking the herb? I've heard of some people having rebound anxiety from this but it definitely wouldn't be considered withdrawal.

2 years ,just recently up dose ,and have negative to anxiety effect.

Ashwagandha in high dose give me great effect on energy and stress level ,but anxiety is worsen ,not happen in lower dose (more calm in lower dose).

How about add something up-gaba receptor to compensate down ,to avoid in off period and enjoy many good effect .



What about Piracetam ,is it potent enough to bring out NMDA-GABA receptor out of balance and get anxiety symptom ?
i take piracetam on occasionally .

(sorry for limit of knowledge and language ,i will improve it )

Edited by Nootropix, 23 November 2012 - 06:41 PM.

[Introspecta]

Piracetam doesn't affect gaba. Piracetam could potentially cause anxiety I suppose but for me it always acts as an anti anxiety nootropic. Maybe just lower your dose and see what the issue is. Don't jump to conclusions so quick.

[SuperjackDid_]

Piracetam doesn't affect gaba. Piracetam could potentially cause anxiety I suppose but for me it always acts as an anti anxiety nootropic. Maybe just lower your dose and see what the issue is. Don't jump to conclusions so quick.

High dose just good for me anyway overall ,will continue experiment Piracetam more ,i already have spent more than 2 years finding his sweet spot .

Edited by Nootropix, 24 November 2012 - 03:36 AM.

[machete234]

I dosed it reasonably with one dose in the evening not more than 500mg of the extract and also only when needed and I didnt have any problems this last week.
Going on binges with this seems not good for me

I agree that it's not pure adaptogen. I consider Ashwagandha medicinal herb with adaptogenic qualities. It has a lot of potential but should be used cautiously and avoid those very potent extracts that turn this to more of a drug.

The website said its 20x extract but I know usually they say 4% withanaloids for example and not 20x.
So I dont know how strong my extract really is.

Edited by machete234, 26 November 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[Galaxyshock]

I agree that it's not pure adaptogen. I consider Ashwagandha medicinal herb with adaptogenic qualities. It has a lot of potential but should be used cautiously and avoid those very potent extracts that turn this to more of a drug.

The website said its 20x extract but I know usually they say 4% withanaloids for example and not 20x.
So I dont know how strong my extract really is.

500mg 4% withanolides is potent, that would be 20mg withanolides. "Now" brand is around the same amount. Compare to Himalaya brand: only 2.96 mg withanolides and it's a combination of extract and full herb . It seems that Himalaya Herbal Healthcare know their herbs and don't over-extract to make them drug-like. Of course one can break the capsule of potent extract and only consume ½ or less and could save money. The organic ashwagandha whole herb contains only around 0.2% withanolides.

[machete234]

The extract comes in powder form allready so dosing it lower shouldnt be a problem, but taking only ~50mg of this doesnt feel right because I can feel it wearing off too early.

I might try 100mg today and see if this helps falling asleep.

[ABCD]

I have been taking ashwagandha root for half a year now . I take 10 gms of it everyday.The himalaya extract is not that potent and doesnot have the gaba agonist effect.Hence i prefer the root. I personally like the gaba effect but would stop if its harmful in long term kindly enlighten me with the side effects and the amount of withanilodes i have been consuming daily to that in himalaya.Thanx

Edited by aw1, 11 January 2013 - 05:52 PM.

[Andrey_81]

I've been taking ashwagandha (himalaya) for the past 10 months without any long breaks. It reduces my anxiety, boosts confidence and stops panic. It works perfect and I never felt tolerance. My dose is the same as the first day I took it, 500-750 mg per day (250 mg before sleep). I'm not planing to stop because this herb changed my life.

Edited by Andrey_81, 12 January 2013 - 06:10 PM.

[Galaxyshock]

I don't see a need to stop if you notice no intolerable or increasing side effects or rebound anxiety - if you do, consider cycling it off and perhaps try Gotu Kola which is also a very effective plant anxiolytic. One day break every week or one week every two months could be smart in the long term regardless. The Himalaya brand is indeed the best balanced and seems to be very safe choice.

[ABCD]

I don't see a need to stop if you notice no intolerable or increasing side effects or rebound anxiety - if you do, consider cycling it off and perhaps try Gotu Kola which is also a very effective plant anxiolytic. One day break every week or one week every two months could be smart in the long term regardless. The Himalaya brand is indeed the best balanced and seems to be very safe choice.

hey galaxyshock

i am using it for stress basically its very effective and i dont have any issues with anxiety.So there is no need to be worried about it as a gabba agonist rite?

[Galaxyshock]

I don't see a need to stop if you notice no intolerable or increasing side effects or rebound anxiety - if you do, consider cycling it off and perhaps try Gotu Kola which is also a very effective plant anxiolytic. One day break every week or one week every two months could be smart in the long term regardless. The Himalaya brand is indeed the best balanced and seems to be very safe choice.

hey galaxyshock

i am using it for stress basically its very effective and i dont have any issues with anxiety.So there is no need to be worried about it as a gabba agonist rite?

Have you tried not using it for a couple of days and noticed any issues? There should always be caution with GABA-agonists, but Ashwagandha has several mechanisms of action for stress reduction and if you don't have anxiety issues and don't notice significant withdrawals when ceasing the use there shouldn't be need to worry.

10 grams would mean around 20mg withanolides so it's in the upper limit of the recommended dosage.

[ABCD]

I don't see a need to stop if you notice no intolerable or increasing side effects or rebound anxiety - if you do, consider cycling it off and perhaps try Gotu Kola which is also a very effective plant anxiolytic. One day break every week or one week every two months could be smart in the long term regardless. The Himalaya brand is indeed the best balanced and seems to be very safe choice.

hey galaxyshock

i am using it for stress basically its very effective and i dont have any issues with anxiety.So there is no need to be worried about it as a gabba agonist rite?

Have you tried not using it for a couple of days and noticed any issues? There should always be caution with GABA-agonists, but Ashwagandha has several mechanisms of action for stress reduction and if you don't have anxiety issues and don't notice significant withdrawals when ceasing the use there shouldn't be need to worry.

10 grams would mean around 20mg withanolides so it's in the upper limit of the recommended dosage.

hey galaxyshock

yes i have tried not using it for 2 days and things were quite normal. Just in case i continue to use it say for the next 5 years and then stop using it and downregulation of gaba happens to me after 5 years(just in case ) then what are the consequences of downregulation of gaba. Is it going to be fatal or after a period of time my gaba levels will return to normal after some time.

I am searching for hours on the net whether it is harmful on long runs.i want to end this search.Entire Sunday gone searching for this. i wish i could quote god here and ask for a reply

Edited by aw1, 13 January 2013 - 01:14 PM.

[Galaxyshock]

If GABA-downregulation becomes an issue, you should be able to notice it already during the usage: increased anxiety, need for higher doses to get the same effect, insomnia, restlessness and significant worsening of symptoms in the absence of the substance. Cold turkey discontinuation would give you several days of these issues and then they woud start getting gradually lessening during longer period of time. But this is really based on how GABAergic drugs work and we do know Ashwagandha is definitely not as harmful as benzos for example. So I can't say how it will turn out in the long term but it's definitely nothing fatal. Some ayurdevic medicine expert could probably give you more knowledged advice. My advice would be to take those breaks from the herb for a week or two every couple of months just in case and to prevent tolerance. Perhaps also get some Gotu Kola in stock which is another great herb for similar uses and it relieves symptoms from GABA-downregulation and protects neurons.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 13 January 2013 - 03:28 PM.

[nupi]

I still maintain that Ashwagandha is at best a weak gaba-ergic. It feels very different from benzos (the prototypically strong gaba-ergic), in any case. I never noticed any acute withdrawals from it, even when I took it for months on end (which is not to say that it might not have some withdrawals, but definitely nothing bad)

[Andrey_81]

Is there somebody who tried more than one brand (like me) and can compare the effect? I'm talking about the extract. For me himalaya works perfect but I would like to know how Jarrow's or other brand work. Is it better, stronger... Somebody wrote that himalaya is milder, so I'm considering to try another brand, just to see the difference.

For you who tried more than one brand, what is your favorite?

[nupi]

I did not notice much of a difference between Swanson, NOW and Jarrow Ashwagandha. Then again, I find Ashwagandha to be pretty mild anyhow.

[Galaxyshock]

The fact that ashwagandha pretty much vanished my phenibut withdrawals at acute base signs that it does have potent GABA-affinity HOWEVER one is unable to get high from it so the "GABA-mimicing" action could mean that it agonizes the receptors only so much of a "normal", calm person (adaptogenic nature). So if at baseline you don't have problems with GABA-function you'll find it mild or uneffective. Some of the other stress-reducing mechanisms could be (I remember reading ashwagandha does this) inhibition of the enzyme Dopamine β-hydroxylase (DBH, conversion of dopamine -> norepinephrine/epinephrine), modulation of acetylcholine, increase in adrogens, inhibition of cortisol etc. So the possible withdrawal could also be downregulated DBH leading to increase in the "stressor" catecholamines and hyperactivity of cortisol. These are just my thoughts based on the information I've gathered of the herb.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 14 January 2013 - 09:26 AM.

[machete234]

I tried the himalaya extract now and it has less effect on the GABA system I can really tell that allready, if thats good or bad is up to you for sure its better for the daytime.

My other extract came in a tub, was 100g for 10€ and as I said small amounts of it are allready sedating, also the powder is darker has more of a smell like a coffee substitue. (The type made from some kind of grain)
Strange enough the seller is out of business now, Im not saying it was fake because what else should you sell for this price with these attributes?

500mg 4% withanolides is potent, that would be 20mg withanolides. "Now" brand is around the same amount. Compare to Himalaya brand: only 2.96 mg withanolides and it's a combination of extract and full herb .

This seems right then so with my 200mg of extract I had 8mg of withanoloids versus the ~3mg with himalaya.
Ill have to test if I get the same level of sedation with 2 pills in the evening.

I must add that the 3mg are allready enough to calm the nerves without sedating too much and so far I have no side effects like with the stronger extract.

Edited by machete234, 15 January 2013 - 01:19 PM.

[Godot]

When I first started using ashwagandha, it made me so tired that I could only use it at night. Strangely, this effect passed after a couple weeks, and the herb then became stimulating, so that I could only take it in the morning. The more useful anxiolytic properties came during this second phase, leading me to believe that I adapted to the gabaergic activity enough to be able to enjoy the other effects of the herb.

However, I haven't taken it in a week or two, and have not experienced any withdrawal syndrome or increase in anxiety since stopping.

[medievil]

The fact that ashwagandha pretty much vanished my phenibut withdrawals at acute base signs that it does have potent GABA-affinity HOWEVER one is unable to get high from it so the "GABA-mimicing" action could mean that it agonizes the receptors only so much of a "normal", calm person (adaptogenic nature). So if at baseline you don't have problems with GABA-function you'll find it mild or uneffective. Some of the other stress-reducing mechanisms could be (I remember reading ashwagandha does this) inhibition of the enzyme Dopamine β-hydroxylase (DBH, conversion of dopamine -> norepinephrine/epinephrine), modulation of acetylcholine, increase in adrogens, inhibition of cortisol etc. So the possible withdrawal could also be downregulated DBH leading to increase in the "stressor" catecholamines and hyperactivity of cortisol. These are just my thoughts based on the information I've gathered of the herb.

omfg
pubmed

Behav Pharmacol. 2013 Apr;24(2):133-143.
Withania somnifera prevents acquisition and expression of morphine-elicited conditioned place preference.

Ruiu S, Longoni R, Spina L, Orrù A, Cottiglia F, Collu M, Kasture S, Acquas E.

Source

aInstitute of Translational Pharmacology, UOS of Cagliari, National Research Council, Scientific and Technological Park of Sardinia - Polaris, Pula bDepartment of Life and Environmental Sciences, Pharmaceutical, Pharmacological and Nutraceutical Sciences Section cDepartment of Life and Environmental Sciences, Drug Sciences Section dDepartment of Biomedical Sciences, Division of Neuroscience and Clinical Pharmacology eCentre of Excellence on Neurobiology of Addiction fNational Institute of Neuroscience, INN, University of Cagliari, Cagliari, Italy gSanjivani College of Pharmaceutical Education & Research, Kopargaon, India.

Abstract

Previous studies have reported that some of the central effects of morphine are counteracted by the administration of the methanolic extract of the root of Indian ginseng, Withania somnifera Dunal (WSE). The present study sought to determine whether WSE affects acquisition and expression of morphine-elicited conditioned place preference (CPP) in CD-1 mice. In CPP acquisition experiments, WSE (0, 25, 50, and 100 mg/kg) was administered, during conditioning, 30 min before morphine (10 mg/kg), whereas in expression experiments, WSE (0, 25, 50, and 100 mg/kg) was administered 30 min before the postconditioning test. The results demonstrate (i) that WSE was devoid of motivational properties; (ii) that WSE (100 mg/kg) was devoid of effects on spontaneous and morphine-stimulated motor activity and on spatial memory; and (iii) that WSE (50 and 100 mg/kg) significantly prevented the acquisition and expression of CPP. Further, to characterize the receptor(s) involved in these effects, we studied, by receptor-binding assay, the affinity of WSE for µ-opioid and γ-aminobutyric acid B receptors. These experiments revealed a higher affinity of WSE for γ-aminobutyric acid B than for µ-opioid receptors. Overall, these results point to WSE as an interesting alternative tool, worthy of further investigation, to study opiate addiction.

gaba mimetic my ass, its a gabab agonist and a good one if it abolishes phenibut withdrawals, baclofen is shit too and you dont get high from it, that doesnt mean it must be a fancy gaba mimetic agent but just a gonist that doesnt make ya high.

[machete234]

Could AWG side effects come from the acetylcholinerase inhibition?
Here it says that it does this

http://www.academicj.../Khan et al.pdf

So can other ach inhibitors cause a head ache and could that be one possible reason?