35 replies to this topic

[carpens]

First off, salutations to everyone here on the forum! This is my first post, but have been lurking on the forum for a few weeks gathering information in my research endeavors as I seek improvement in my cognition, focus, memory, and concentration on all fronts of life. Thank you all in advance for providing a great source of information for me and for all of us with a common goal in mind.

First off, a little intro to myself. I am 28 years old, 160 lb, very little body fat and quite lean (very high metabolism). I am an IT professional (infrastructure guy). I am slightly sedintary due to the nature of my job, but I do play sports on the weekend and exercise once or twice a week. My goal here is to improve my memory and focus, and reduce depression which I've struggled with for years. I am also a recovering addict.

So I started taking Piractem on March 14. I purchased a 500 gram tub from an online source (SNS) from Amazon. I started with an attack does 3x2g for the first couple of days, noticing remarkable or not magical improvements in memory, focus, concentrations, and especially verbal skills. The same day I began taking it, verbal communication was much more fluid, I felt intensely focused on tasks at work, and could recall memories from earlier in the day without hesitation (all of these things I usually struggle with). I also tried cannabis in conjunction (Sativa) and noticed some amazing results. Only downside is that I was lacking sleep for the first few nights and become quite an insomniac, probably as a result of a million ideas and alanytical thoughts zooming across my brain. Also note I did not stack Piracetam with a choline source as I have not suffered from any of the dreaded headaches encountered by choline imbalance.

For about the first 5 days the effects remained as I stated earlier. I also began supplementing with 300mg of Alpha GPC on day 3 just to make sure my choline levels were not becoming depleted.

After day 5, I suddenly noticed I become very irritable when I woke up. I was so annoyed by my pet rabbit thumping around in his cage that I shouted and cursed at him with fiery. When I got to work, I noticed my brain was in a "fog", in that their was little depth to my thoughts, and my verbal fluidity which I had been enjoying was suddenly missing (I began stumbling over words and hesitating when thinking of a word to use). I also felt rather apothetic and lethargic, and acctually fell asleep at my desk after lunch for about 30 min. Regardless, I continued with my regime of Piracetam (2g x 3 per day) and 300mg of A-GPC for this past week. This pattern of tiredness and irritability and depression has continued for several days with no improvements. The positive effects that I was feeling the week before have subsided completely, and I am left with these negative side-effects.

I am not sure if this is my brain becoming burned out on the Piractem, or mayb e a chemical imbalance that I have overlooked. I know for sure that I am a positive responder to racetams, but unfrotunately it has been short-lived at this point.

Any suggestions or input would be very much appreciate. How do I get back to where I was when I started my regimen?

[health_nutty]

I too had issues with Piracetam irritibility. 100mg L-glutamic acid (but not l-glutamine) or MSG cured the irritibility from Piracetam. My experience is almost identical to yours. I beleive this happens because the Piracetam causes you to "burn through" the glutamate in the brain faster than it can be replentished. Supplementing l-glutamic acid prevents this from happening. I find it necessary to supplement with both choline as well for a similar reason: Piracetam cases a depletion of ACh.

[carpens]

I too had issues with Piracetam irritibility. 100mg L-glutamic acid (but not l-glutamine) or MSG cured the irritibility from Piracetam. My experience is almost identical to yours. I beleive this happens because the Piracetam causes you to "burn through" the glutamate in the brain faster than it can be replentished. Supplementing l-glutamic acid prevents this from happening. I find it necessary to supplement with both choline as well for a similar reason: Piracetam cases a depletion of ACh.

Thank you for the quick reply, health_nutty!

I have been reading this post that has numerous references to L-glutamic Acid / MSG.

I thought I read somewhere that L-glutamic acid causes ExcitoToxicty at high levels. Have you experienced anything of the sort?

Lastly, did the positive effects (mental/visual clarity, verbal fluidity, concentration, etc etc..) return when you introduced the L-Glutamic acid?

Thanks again!

[Baten]

I recommend trying glutamic acid and/or centrophenoxine, the latter aids me against brain fog when taking racetams.

[carpens]

@Baten, thank you! I will definitely give this a try! What dosage do you recommend.

Also, did you guys experience lethergy/sleepiness at any point? Or for that matter, depression, reduction of cognition at any level? This seems to be what I am battling at the moment.

[Tomas E]

Start by taking 50mg of glutamic, I also worry about the ExcitoToxicty , as for your doses on piracetam arent really that high 3g, up it to 5g, but then again if 3g is working for you there is really no point in going higher either.

[What'sAllThisThen]

The depression aspect could be caused by the Alpha GPC. Try Piracetam without it and see if you get depressed, and/or try Alpha GPC without the Pira and see if you still become depressed.

[khemix]

I too had issues with Piracetam irritibility. 100mg L-glutamic acid (but not l-glutamine) or MSG cured the irritibility from Piracetam. My experience is almost identical to yours. I beleive this happens because the Piracetam causes you to "burn through" the glutamate in the brain faster than it can be replentished. Supplementing l-glutamic acid prevents this from happening. I find it necessary to supplement with both choline as well for a similar reason: Piracetam cases a depletion of ACh.

You really feel the glutamic acid giving you effects? Its 100mg, 95% of which is metabolized with first pass, with the remaining 5% unable to cross the BBB. I would think virtually none of it makes it to produce a discernible effect. On top of that, you'd need to be dosing it 3x a day because if as you say you are using it counter the piracetam depletion one dose would not last all day long and would need to coincide with the racetam dosing.

I'm actually very interested in experimenting with glutamic acid because in theory it sounds like it would have strong cognitive effects on its own. Maybe it would allow me to try piracetam again and I wouldn't feel the mind numbing effect and trouble with memory formation. Can you emphatically say that there are discernible effects that are not attributable to placebo? If so what are they?

[Baten]

Also, did you guys experience lethergy/sleepiness at any point? Or for that matter, depression, reduction of cognition at any level? This seems to be what I am battling at the moment.

I take a whole gram of centro when taking lots of things, if you only take piracetam though I can imagine 500mg is enough.
Centro capsules are pretty expensive though in comparison to eating the powder or making capsules yourself (more tedious though, and tastes disgusting).

I was lethargic the first weeks of piracetam intake. Don't suffer of that anymore, rather, I need less sleep.
I take centro in the morning and choline before sleep. Works perfectly.

[health_nutty]

I too had issues with Piracetam irritibility. 100mg L-glutamic acid (but not l-glutamine) or MSG cured the irritibility from Piracetam. My experience is almost identical to yours. I beleive this happens because the Piracetam causes you to "burn through" the glutamate in the brain faster than it can be replentished. Supplementing l-glutamic acid prevents this from happening. I find it necessary to supplement with both choline as well for a similar reason: Piracetam cases a depletion of ACh.

You really feel the glutamic acid giving you effects? Its 100mg, 95% of which is metabolized with first pass, with the remaining 5% unable to cross the BBB. I would think virtually none of it makes it to produce a discernible effect. On top of that, you'd need to be dosing it 3x a day because if as you say you are using it counter the piracetam depletion one dose would not last all day long and would need to coincide with the racetam dosing.

I'm actually very interested in experimenting with glutamic acid because in theory it sounds like it would have strong cognitive effects on its own. Maybe it would allow me to try piracetam again and I wouldn't feel the mind numbing effect and trouble with memory formation. Can you emphatically say that there are discernible effects that are not attributable to placebo? If so what are they?

I'm 100% positive that it took away Piracetam irritibility. I'm fairly sure that it makes the helps Piracetam and the other racetams work better (but I can't say for sure it isn't placebo).

I'm taking 125mg of l-glutamic acid twice a day (along with my Piracetam). Piracetam must be depleting glutamate more than the other racetams. I felt almost no irritibility from the other 3 racetams I've tried. I'm amazed at how different each racetam feels.

Also I "only" take 1.6g of piracetam twice daily. But I'm also taking 500mg of Ani x 4 (2g a day) and 250mg of Pram x 2 (500mg a day). I've tried 2.4g and 3.2g and it is clearly too much on top of all the other racetams I'm taking. I also find that I am needing 1.5 grams of choline (from 2g of choline bitartrate). If I take less feel a bit spacy or tired.

[health_nutty]

@Baten, thank you! I will definitely give this a try! What dosage do you recommend.

Also, did you guys experience lethergy/sleepiness at any point? Or for that matter, depression, reduction of cognition at any level? This seems to be what I am battling at the moment.

I've found that lethargy and sleepiness is due to a lack of choline. Plain old choline bitartrate works for me (along with ALCAR).

[carpens]

Hey guys, just wanted to say thank you all for your insighful comments and suggestions. I have a better understanding of the cause to my sleepiness and irritability, but a few questions remain with me. I have noticed that the magical effects have sort of worn off.. i.e. the sharpened vision, the razor sharp memory recall and concentration. Do you guys think this is my brain downregulating or some tolerance has built up to Piracetam?

[themastadon]

Hey guys, just wanted to say thank you all for your insighful comments and suggestions. I have a better understanding of the cause to my sleepiness and irritability, but a few questions remain with me. I have noticed that the magical effects have sort of worn off.. i.e. the sharpened vision, the razor sharp memory recall and concentration. Do you guys think this is my brain downregulating or some tolerance has built up to Piracetam?

I'm actually five days into my first ever nootropic stack, piracetam with choline. I'm loving the visual and mental clarity right now, but am preparing for some of the initial effects to eventually fade. I don't think you're experiencing tolerance...many aspects of the cognitive enhancement will remain. At any rate, I've read countless testimonials where the visuals tapered off within the first few weeks. It's completely normal. What's left after the initial effects fade is more than enough reason to take piracetam on a long-term basis IMO.

Anyways, I'm looking for people to compare notes with. If anyone here is just starting out as well, drop me a line via pm. We can set something up either through groupme or even just straight up email.

Edited by themastadon, 27 March 2012 - 11:38 PM.

[Baten]

I never experienced "sharpened vision, razor sharp memory recall and concentration" :(
not at low doses, not at high doses, not with glutemic acid, not with calcium /sigh

[carpens]

Sorry to hear about the disappointing results, Baten :(

Even though some of the initial "magic" has faded away now that I am two weeks into my regimen, I do notice some other benefits:

• Vivid dreams
• Lowered depression
• More mental energy throughout the day
• Improved memory and cognitive functions (subtle yet noticeable)

[Baten]

Nothing changed regarding your sleep rythm/quality? For me this is what makes me take piracetam, slept 7 hours and feel awesome :]

[abelard lindsay]

Guys don't supplement with Glutamic acid. It's a known excitotoxin. Please post just one study that says it's good for you and I might listen. There are hundreds of studies that demonstrate its brain damaging effects.

Please see below:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....0excitotoxicity

Edited by abelard lindsay, 30 March 2012 - 04:54 AM.

[Baten]

Guys don't supplement with Glutamic acid. It's a known excitotoxin. Please post just one study that says it's good for you and I might listen. There are hundreds of studies that demonstrate its brain damaging effects.

Please see below:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....0excitotoxicity

Yes, but it's actually useful at 100 to 250mg doses. It's not like we're taking grams of the stuff.

Edited by Baten, 30 March 2012 - 07:42 AM.

[carpens]

Hey guys, I wanted to share with you some of my progress. Since my original post 15 days ago, My condition have taken a quite a turn in the right direction. My irritability and drowsiness have disappeared completely. I have a newfound energy. I notice an overall improvement with memory, focus, and social fluidity as well. Note that I never ended up adding anything to my regimen. I cut out the Alpha GPC altogether, so its solely 4g x 2 daily for the last 10 days.

Very odd with the cycling it seems to me. I vaguely recall some research I was doing where this topic showed up. I wonder if these fluctuations are normal for others?

[carpens]

Guys don't supplement with Glutamic acid. It's a known excitotoxin. Please post just one study that says it's good for you and I might listen. There are hundreds of studies that demonstrate its brain damaging effects.

Please see below:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....0excitotoxicity

Yes, but it's actually useful at 100 to 250mg doses. It's not like we're taking grams of the stuff.

Why not just go with L-Glutamine? Doesn't the body convert it the same as Glutamic Acid?

[Baten]

Why not just go with L-Glutamine? Doesn't the body convert it the same as Glutamic Acid?

L-Glutamine is a worthless supplement. I tried taking it for months with no effect whatsoever.
A small dose of glutamic acid on the other hand, is noticeable, and not toxic at all.

[health_nutty]

Why not just go with L-Glutamine? Doesn't the body convert it the same as Glutamic Acid?

L-Glutamine is a worthless supplement. I tried taking it for months with no effect whatsoever.
A small dose of glutamic acid on the other hand, is noticeable, and not toxic at all.

I had the same experience.

[Tomas E]

Everyone who has tried everything else , and suddenly l-acid is the thing that really gets piracetam going, guess I wont have any option then to buy it myself and hopefully get some improvement , as piracetam has totally lost its effect on me, what ever additions I take with it .....

[george362a]

Everyone who has tried everything else , and suddenly l-acid is the thing that really gets piracetam going, guess I wont have any option then to buy it myself and hopefully get some improvement , as piracetam has totally lost its effect on me, what ever additions I take with it .....

What are you calling "l-acid?"

[george362a]

I am getting fatigue and joint pains and stiffness with piracetam. There is something I am missing, but I don't know what. Any ideas?

[SuperjackDid_]

Hey guys, I wanted to share with you some of my progress. Since my original post 15 days ago, My condition have taken a quite a turn in the right direction. My irritability and drowsiness have disappeared completely. I have a newfound energy. I notice an overall improvement with memory, focus, and social fluidity as well. Note that I never ended up adding anything to my regimen. I cut out the Alpha GPC altogether, so its solely 4g x 2 daily for the last 10 days.

Very odd with the cycling it seems to me. I vaguely recall some research I was doing where this topic showed up. I wonder if these fluctuations are normal for others?

You mean ,you can't take it every days and need to break to bring magic back ?

Edited by Nootropix, 04 December 2012 - 06:52 PM.

[SuperjackDid_]

Guys don't supplement with Glutamic acid. It's a known excitotoxin. Please post just one study that says it's good for you and I might listen. There are hundreds of studies that demonstrate its brain damaging effects.

Please see below:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....0excitotoxicity

I think very tiny amount not cause any excitotoxin or it just happen only when combine with Piracetam without regard of any dose ?


I think my all problems is excitotoxin not anything else and i should stop harmful myself just for piracetam effect.

Edited by Nootropix, 04 December 2012 - 07:08 PM.

[exiledone1]

I've been on Piracetam for about 8 days now and my results are interesting. I have never received enhanced vision or sound, but I'm not 100 percent sure it's working. I'm a lot more alert and focused when I actually sit down to do a task and I notice my problem solving ability has increased, but still I wonder if that is directly from the Piracetam. I can't tell if my memory has been enhanced really. I don't need choline as I appear to be choline dominant. I was on Ani for almost 2 months and never needed choline.

I've been taking 4800 mg twice a day. I don't feel as tired or down as when I was on Ani. I can't say I have noticed an increase in verbal or anything either. Can anyone recommend a way to me that will help me to figure out if Piracetam is working? I know were not supposed to feel anything, but I'm curious how do you know it's "Really" working? Any test or things to look for that let me know. I only had irrability for a day or two and for the most part I feel like I have constantly energy and I don't want to sleep.

Thanks and this thread has been really helpful.

Josh

Edited by exiledone1, 12 February 2013 - 10:07 PM.

[owtsgmi]

Why not just go with L-Glutamine? Doesn't the body convert it the same as Glutamic Acid?

L-Glutamine is a worthless supplement. I tried taking it for months with no effect whatsoever.
A small dose of glutamic acid on the other hand, is noticeable, and not toxic at all.

Quite a strong statement and wrong. L-Glutamine works great in my piracetam stack and I have tried Glutamic acid, MSG, etc I have been taking this consistent (piracetam) stack for 3+ years and the effects are as good as they ever were:

8:30am and 3:30pm

piracteam 800mg
L-Glutamine 1000mg
ALCAR 250mg
Phosphatidylserine 200 mg (only in the am)
Magnesium Citrate 200mg

Everyone is different. Please don't totally dismiss a supplement just because you didn't respond to it.

[Baten]

Why not just go with L-Glutamine? Doesn't the body convert it the same as Glutamic Acid?

L-Glutamine is a worthless supplement. I tried taking it for months with no effect whatsoever.
A small dose of glutamic acid on the other hand, is noticeable, and not toxic at all.

Quite a strong statement and wrong. L-Glutamine works great in my piracetam stack and I have tried Glutamic acid, MSG, etc I have been taking this consistent (piracetam) stack for 3+ years and the effects are as good as they ever were:

8:30am and 3:30pm

piracteam 800mg
L-Glutamine 1000mg
ALCAR 250mg
Phosphatidylserine 200 mg (only in the am)
Magnesium Citrate 200mg

Everyone is different. Please don't totally dismiss a supplement just because you didn't respond to it.

Fine, let me rephrase. L-Glutamine was a worthless supplement to me. I tried taking it for months with no susceptible gain whatsoever.
Considering you take quite a lot with your piracetam, have you tried dropping the glutamine alone and noticed anything off?
If you do believe it works for you, it isn't all that expensive so good for you. Maybe it is synergystic with the rest of your stack. Maybe you lack it in your diet?
It's just that I, and health_nutty too apparently, found it rather useless. As with anything on the forum, take that as you wish, strong statement or not.