75 replies to this topic

[noos]

Sorry if already discussed but is brain fog related to ACh or norepinephrine?

[choqueiro]

Ok JChief. I will try the initial stack (piracetam + centro + uridine + cofactors). I have nothing to lose.

Hoewer, I´m a little bit worried because it is said that piracetam (and also centro) raises anxiety levels (no depleted them) and many users also have said in this forum that their depression symptoms worsened after piracetam.

[nupi]

Then try Aniracetam instead, that is widely reported to be anxiolytic

[JChief]

For me, at least, piracetam has demonstrated anxiolytic effects in spite of the fact that it is not a sedative. This was all the more apparent when combined with cannabis.

Edited by JChief, 15 April 2012 - 02:24 PM.

[choqueiro]

Hi.

I´m waiting for my Piracetam and Centro (I ordered to Relentless).

I continue searching more info about my symptoms. Recently I found this article: http://www.drjoecarv... Imbalance.html

Among other things, in this article they speak about symptoms of low serotonin levels. In the paragraph about very low serotonin levels it is said:

When Serotonin is severely low, you will experience some if not all of the following:

· Thinking speed will increase. You will have difficulty controlling your own thoughts. The brain will focus on torturing memories and you’ll find it difficult to stop thinking about these uncomfortable memories or images.

· You’ll become emotionally numb! You wouldn’t know how you feel about your life, marriage, job, family, future, significant other, etc. It’s as though all feelings have been turned off. Asked by others how you feel – your response might be “I don’t know!”

· Outbursts will begin, typically two types. Crying outbursts will surface, suddenly crying without much warning. Behavioral outbursts will also surface. If you break the lead in a pencil, you throw the pencil across the room. Temper tantrums may surface. You may storm out of offices or public places.

· Escape fantasies will begin. The most common – Hit the Road! The brain will suggest packing up your personal effects and leaving the family and community.

· Memory torture will begin. Your brain, thinking at 100 miles an hour, will search your memories for your most traumatic or unpleasant experiences. You will suddenly become preoccupied with horrible experiences that may have happened ten, twenty, or even thirty years ago. You will relive the death of loved ones, divorce, childhood abuse – whatever the brain can find to torture you with – you’ll feel like it happened yesterday.

· You’ll have Evil Thoughts. New mothers may have thoughts about smothering their infants. Thoughts of harming or killing others may appear. You may be tortured by images/pictures in your memory. It’s as though the brain finds your most uncomfortable weak spot, then terrorizes you with it.

· With Serotonin a major bodily regulator, when Serotonin is this low your body becomes unregulated. You’ll experience changes in body temperature, aches/pains, muscle cramps, bowel/bladder problems, smothering sensations, etc. The “Evil Thoughts” then tell you those symptoms are due to a terminal disease. Depressed folks never have gas – it’s colon cancer. A bruise is leukemia.

· You’ll develop a Need-for-Change Panic. You’ll begin thinking a change in lifestyle (Midlife Crisis!), a divorce, an extramarital affair, a new job, or a Corvette will change your mood. About 70 percent of jobs are lost at this time as depressed individuals gradually fade away from their life. Most extramarital affairs occur at this time.

· As low Serotonin levels are related to obsessive-compulsive disorders, you may find yourself starting to count things, become preoccupied with germs/disease, excessively worry that appliances are turned off or doors locked, worry that televisions must be turned off on an even-numbered channel, etc. You may develop rituals involving safety and counting. One auto assembly plant worker began believing his work would curse automobiles if their serial number, when each number was added, didn’t equal an even number.

· Whatever normal personality traits, quirks, or attitudes you have, they will suddenly be increased three-fold. A perfectionist will suddenly become anxiously overwhelmed by the messiness of their environment or distraught over leaves that fall each minute to land on the lawn. Penny-pinchers will suddenly become preoccupied with the electric and water consumption in the home.

· A “trigger” event may produce bizarre behavior. Already moderately low in Serotonin, an animal bite or scratch may make you suddenly preoccupied with rabies. A media story about the harmful effects of radiation may make you remember a teenage tour of the local nuclear power plant – suddenly feeling all your symptoms are now the result of exposure to radiation.

· When you reach the bottom of “severely low” Serotonin, the “garbage truck” will arrive. Everyone with severely low Serotonin is told the same thing. You will be told 1) You’re a bad spouse, parent, child, employee, etc., 2) You are a burden to those who love or depend on you, 3) You are worsening the lives of those around you, 4) Those who care about you would be better if you weren’t there, 5) You would be better if you weren’t around, and 6) You and those around you would be better off if you were totally out of the picture. At that point, you develop suicidal thoughts.

Even though I don´t have all these symptoms, I experience (exactly) some of them. Maybe I´m wrong, but I think that my serotonin levels are low and to make any improvement I think that increase serotonin levels is a must.

Apart from depression, anxiety and brain fog, I also suffer from obssesive thoughts (one of the symptoms that this article links with low serotonin levels). I would like to fight against OCD (or pure OCD) effectively and maybe piracetam + centro will not help. Is Inositol a good idea?? St. John´s??

Thanks.

[hippocampus]

for OCD inositol is a very good thing, then NAC. + mindfulness meditation. and everything that is good against depression may be helpful (omega 3, zinc, magnesium) for better mood, although it may not improve obsessions so much. piracetam may be good, especially if used during meditation, although you may build "tolerance" (= lose effect for various reasons) to it, so cycling is recommended (not by everyone - but it sure is from me ).

[nooToon]

Hi
choqueiro,

This is my first post , but i'd like to add my 2c worth if you don't mind.

I can speak from some personal experience that is similar to yours, just that I'm not a lawyer, but I did get diagnosed with "Anxiety", "Depression", then given SSRI's, MAOI's, SNRI's, Tricyclics - all were crap.

I found that while drugs helped - Xanax, Zoloft, etc they would leave with some sort of side effect that couldn't be lived with long term....

I'd like to keep it simple and recomend a cure instead of a crutch - the crutch will help, but it's nice when you don't need one. I still have crutches that I choose to use... sure who doesn't?

Bacopa
Lecithin
Sulbutiamine
Caffeine
raw organic cacoa - Theobromine is nicer than caffeine
Cannabis
Fish Oil
AstaXanthin

My Piracetam is coming soon ( YAY), but all this is because I choose to, and unlike before, I felt I had no option, the Doctors and Shrinks really pushed this and it pisses me off now because the answer never was drugs, or at least not in the conventional pharma drugs, I found my releif through Prayer, DIET DIET DIET, supps, then drugs.

It sounds funny, but it's so simple, the one biggest factor that changed everything was DIET - I began juicing heaps of green veggies, my wife was doing it for health as well, but she had things like heart problems, weight etc. Also think about what Hippocrates said " Let food be thy medicine and Medicine be thy food"...

And since the SAD (Standard American Diet) is massively processed we loose many of the naturally occuring Nootropics that are available in food. Oh yes I tell you now, if you ate 20 strawberrys, a nice size knob of ginger, and some beautiful Spinach and lemon - you'd feel better, I know, because I've done it, but I didn't eat them, I juiced them, thus keeping all the beneficial enzymes intact, and since it's "fresh" or as close to it as you can get, you are able to your brain a massive amount of nutes, a natural cleanout, and a mood boost all by having some food---- WOW you should keep in mind that

I feel for you and as I said i've been there.... for 8 LONG, DARK, LONELY years, I started looking into nutrition as a way to balance brain chemistry and found that the more natural my diet was, the more the old me came back.......

So where do the NOOTS come in, well as I mentioned juice is packed full of noots and nutes the answer you are looking for isn't in drugs alone - but onto things like packaged and synthetic noots,

Bacopa - helped clear the brain fog - took about a week but there was a subtle memory improvement
Lecithin - Improves my mood and memory in a short period of time (a few raw egg yolks does about the same for me - don't eat the white raw - long term Biotin defficiency can occur, rare)
Caffeine - Crap for me - good stim but always crashes me out....
AstaXanthin - Strange but mental endurance seems to be up with this

I don't know what experiences others have had with food concentrates I.E Juice, but I find that it is the easiest quickest way to get feeling better and get the old brain thinking clearer - FAST, then you start to have fun with the noots

Also I noticed someone mentioned that sugar doesn't help - it's true, empty carbs that actually rob you of magnesium/calcium etc


I hope this helps

[JChief]

Hi.

I´m waiting for my Piracetam and Centro (I ordered to Relentless).

I continue searching more info about my symptoms. Recently I found this article: http://www.drjoecarv...0Imbalance.html

Among other things, in this article they speak about symptoms of low serotonin levels. In the paragraph about very low serotonin levels it is said:

When Serotonin is severely low, you will experience some if not all of the following:

· Thinking speed will increase. You will have difficulty controlling your own thoughts. The brain will focus on torturing memories and you’ll find it difficult to stop thinking about these uncomfortable memories or images.

· You’ll become emotionally numb! You wouldn’t know how you feel about your life, marriage, job, family, future, significant other, etc. It’s as though all feelings have been turned off. Asked by others how you feel – your response might be “I don’t know!”

· Outbursts will begin, typically two types. Crying outbursts will surface, suddenly crying without much warning. Behavioral outbursts will also surface. If you break the lead in a pencil, you throw the pencil across the room. Temper tantrums may surface. You may storm out of offices or public places.

· Escape fantasies will begin. The most common – Hit the Road! The brain will suggest packing up your personal effects and leaving the family and community.

· Memory torture will begin. Your brain, thinking at 100 miles an hour, will search your memories for your most traumatic or unpleasant experiences. You will suddenly become preoccupied with horrible experiences that may have happened ten, twenty, or even thirty years ago. You will relive the death of loved ones, divorce, childhood abuse – whatever the brain can find to torture you with – you’ll feel like it happened yesterday.

· You’ll have Evil Thoughts. New mothers may have thoughts about smothering their infants. Thoughts of harming or killing others may appear. You may be tortured by images/pictures in your memory. It’s as though the brain finds your most uncomfortable weak spot, then terrorizes you with it.

· With Serotonin a major bodily regulator, when Serotonin is this low your body becomes unregulated. You’ll experience changes in body temperature, aches/pains, muscle cramps, bowel/bladder problems, smothering sensations, etc. The “Evil Thoughts” then tell you those symptoms are due to a terminal disease. Depressed folks never have gas – it’s colon cancer. A bruise is leukemia.

· You’ll develop a Need-for-Change Panic. You’ll begin thinking a change in lifestyle (Midlife Crisis!), a divorce, an extramarital affair, a new job, or a Corvette will change your mood. About 70 percent of jobs are lost at this time as depressed individuals gradually fade away from their life. Most extramarital affairs occur at this time.

· As low Serotonin levels are related to obsessive-compulsive disorders, you may find yourself starting to count things, become preoccupied with germs/disease, excessively worry that appliances are turned off or doors locked, worry that televisions must be turned off on an even-numbered channel, etc. You may develop rituals involving safety and counting. One auto assembly plant worker began believing his work would curse automobiles if their serial number, when each number was added, didn’t equal an even number.

· Whatever normal personality traits, quirks, or attitudes you have, they will suddenly be increased three-fold. A perfectionist will suddenly become anxiously overwhelmed by the messiness of their environment or distraught over leaves that fall each minute to land on the lawn. Penny-pinchers will suddenly become preoccupied with the electric and water consumption in the home.

· A “trigger” event may produce bizarre behavior. Already moderately low in Serotonin, an animal bite or scratch may make you suddenly preoccupied with rabies. A media story about the harmful effects of radiation may make you remember a teenage tour of the local nuclear power plant – suddenly feeling all your symptoms are now the result of exposure to radiation.

· When you reach the bottom of “severely low” Serotonin, the “garbage truck” will arrive. Everyone with severely low Serotonin is told the same thing. You will be told 1) You’re a bad spouse, parent, child, employee, etc., 2) You are a burden to those who love or depend on you, 3) You are worsening the lives of those around you, 4) Those who care about you would be better if you weren’t there, 5) You would be better if you weren’t around, and 6) You and those around you would be better off if you were totally out of the picture. At that point, you develop suicidal thoughts.

Even though I don´t have all these symptoms, I experience (exactly) some of them. Maybe I´m wrong, but I think that my serotonin levels are low and to make any improvement I think that increase serotonin levels is a must.

Apart from depression, anxiety and brain fog, I also suffer from obssesive thoughts (one of the symptoms that this article links with low serotonin levels). I would like to fight against OCD (or pure OCD) effectively and maybe piracetam + centro will not help. Is Inositol a good idea?? St. John´s??

Thanks.

Funny SSRI's made me feel emotionally "numb" and resulted in mood shifts that made me act unlike I would have had I not taken them. Uncontrollable anger outbursts mixed with euphoric effects were a staple of my effexor experience. I'd feel great as a teenager but if something didn't go my way I was irrational. This is just my personal experience. But there's no doubt that addressing serotonin to any degree will require powerful medicine that is not without controversy. I guess what I'm getting at, choqueiro, is that you should probably wait to see where you are at with your upcoming regimen. If I've learned anything in recent years its that "depression" is not always the fault of serotonin. Please report back your results with piracetam and centrophenoxine and good luck.

Edit: I should also add that OCD is experienced by a lot of folks here. It's more about managing it than getting rid of it. Certainly there is a serotonin component to it. But going about increasing serotonin levels is wrought with potential issues that may or may not be worth it. Uridine helped if you read my thread on that but it's not going to cure it completely. SSRIs can benefit OCD but you frequently hear of people getting complacent though which is not good. And I have a lazy personality (generally speaking) so motivation has been a focus of mine these last few years. Tianeptine/Stablon would be my first choice if I felt compelled to increase serotonin before trying, say, low-dose Lexapro. Centrophenoxine though keeps me focused. OCD is such a distraction for many of us.

Edited by JChief, 25 April 2012 - 06:30 AM.

[JChief]

for OCD inositol is a very good thing, then NAC. + mindfulness meditation. and everything that is good against depression may be helpful (omega 3, zinc, magnesium) for better mood, although it may not improve obsessions so much. piracetam may be good, especially if used during meditation, although you may build "tolerance" (= lose effect for various reasons) to it, so cycling is recommended (not by everyone - but it sure is from me ).

All good advice. I've taken take both. BTW inositol has a sweet taste to it that makes it a breeze to take with water. At least with the AOR brand I purchased. Here is a good overview from LEF.org regarding OCD and known treatments (nutritional and otherwise) for a good summary.

[JChief]

More alternative OCD-related treatment options here - quitting caffeine completely and ensuring adequate b-vitamins (everybody should be taking a good multi) and omega 3s are a good idea just after a quick glance. Leave no stone unturned.

[JChief]

From

http://mindrenewal.us/page13.html

In terms of mood, the combination of higher ACh and NE, together with lower SE, produces anxiety, emotional lability, irritability, anger, aggressiveness, negative rumination, impatience, and impulsiveness (among other things). When NE, DA, and SE are low and acetylcholine is high, the result is simply depression. SSRI antidepressants, by increasing serotonin, are able to lower acetylcholine levels, thereby lessening or eliminating the symptoms associated with high acetylcholine. However, the major drawback is that increasing serotonin also leads to a reduction of norepinephrine and dopamine in the brain. Therefore, long-term use of SSRI antidepressants will result in a high serotonin condition, which is actually another type of depression (see separate article on this site about serotonin). So, in spite of all of the publicity and common usage, SSRI antidepressants are really not the best choice (at least, not in the long run) for treating depression. Unless the problem of low NE and DA is also addressed, a high acetylcholine depression, in time, will merely be replaced by a high serotonin depression. This explains why SSRI antidepressants do not help everyone, lose their effectiveness over time, make some people more depressed, or cause intolerable side effects.

Generally, ACh levels in the brain will increase proportionately to the amount of choline in the diet. However, ACh levels will also become higher for other reasons. Whenever there is interference with the release of the other neurotransmitters, or their levels have fallen, ACh levels will automatically increase. This is due to the balancing effect between all of the brain transmitters, whereby a decrease in one resuts in a relative increase in the other.

Foods that significantly increase ACh: eggs, fish, soybean products, foods (wide variety) containing lecithin, wheat germ.

Supplements that significantly increase ACh: choline, lecithin, fish oil, flaxseed oil

Other things that increase acetylcholine: MSG (monosodium glutamate), medications, chemicals

See

http://www.acnp.org/...1000095/CH.html

for more information.

All that said and I might add a twist to that equation with higher SE levels, in my experience, led to irrational behavior and aggressiveness. Also, centrophenoxine supposedly increases ACh levels however I do not experience the symptoms of too much as my results have been: quite UNdepressed , increased motivation and concentration. That said, maybe there is something to the criticism regarding DMAE as an ACh precursor. Perhaps the benefits have little to do with ACh in general eh? *spins wheel*

Dimethylaminoethanol is related to choline and may be a biochemical precursor to the neurotransmitteracetylcholine, although this conclusion has been disputed.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....v/pubmed/850128

Edited by JChief, 25 April 2012 - 07:07 AM.

[Orajel]

Watch out for taking too much ALCAR and choline, if your prone to depression they could potentially exacerbate your symptoms

edit: I should note that that's because too much acetylcholine can negatively affect your mood.

Aniracetam, piracetam, rhodiola, and a little ALCAR make me feel great (no choline)

Edited by Orajel, 25 April 2012 - 07:12 AM.

[JChief]

Watch out for taking too much ALCAR and choline, if your prone to depression they could potentially exacerbate your symptoms

edit: I should note that that's because too much acetylcholine can negatively affect your mood.

Aniracetam, piracetam, rhodiola, and a little ALCAR make me feel great (no choline)

I also take 500mg ALCAR twice per day along with R-ALA as well as uridine, piracetam and centrophenoxine alone with a multi, tongkat ali and omega 3s. I also will frequently mix a tablespoon of lecithin granules to a whey protein shake with almond milk and almond butter + coconut oil. No mood issues to speak of however when I was taking Alpha GPC that eventually led to neck tightness and fog. I never had that issue with choline citrate taken prior.

[Orajel]

I also use ALA with ALCAR, forgot to mention that, helps me stay lucid. I recently learned that they potentiate eachother which is neat (you probably knew that before I did). After reading about acetylcholine excess and depression I ran an experiment using myself as a guinea pig; on a few occasions I took a large amount of ALCAR (2g), choline(3g), and piracetam(12g) and sure enough, I felt depressed every time. I've reduced my doses since and cut out supplementing choline altogether.

[JChief]

It sounds funny, but it's so simple, the one biggest factor that changed everything was DIET - I began juicing heaps of green veggies, my wife was doing it for health as well, but she had things like heart problems, weight etc. Also think about what Hippocrates said " Let food be thy medicine and Medicine be thy food"...

Great point you brought up here! Juicing is awesome. Greens especially are very important in my opinion. Green smoothies are very good too (hello fiber! boosts libido). Back when I first started juicing more regularly one of the first things I noticed was the ability to breathe better. I suffered from allergies for about a year and half and they just all went away. No explanation to me other than diet.

[JChief]

I cannot believe I neglected to point out that I absolutely never suffered a single panic attack again in my life after taking Rosavin . Adaptogens balance the neurotransmitters in your brain. Please give this a try before resorting to tianeptine or SSRIs. I've posted about it in other threads but hey this product worked for me. I only went through one bottle. Mind you I was taking Klonopin and liquid prozac to attempt to contain anxiety and manage frequent out-of-the-blue panic attacks. The cause of this I suspect was from several years prior as a teenager experimenting with illegal drugs (MDMA, cocaine) and legal ones (Adderall, pain killers, Xanax). I pretty much f-cked up my brain and I paid the price for it. Anyway please give this a shot. I would not substitute a cheaper brand either of siberian rhodiola rosea. Rosavin is the brand used in many many clinical studies. Sorry for not mentioning this and I'm at a loss as to why.

[gamesguru]

I think my issues are related mainly to depression and ADD, which tend to feed each other via reciprocal actions.

In any case, I really tried to get a benefit out of piracetam. I tried very hard. I tried 20 grams daily, 2 grams daily, 200 mg daily. I tried taking it for months straight, only 2-3 days per week, or not at all. I tried combining it with choline, dmae, huperzine, aniracetam, bacopa, and countless other supplements. None of these combinations, no matter how much was in the stack, seemed to confer any consistent benefit. Since I was seeking a stack which would reliably bring me to euthymia, I'm gradually becoming discouraged, due to the inevitable inconsistency of the effects of drugs. Is there no herb nor extract nor chemical which can bring me relief? At least I have some eggs in the therapy basket (which i recommend for everyone who can dish out $100/week), but prospects are grim on that end if supplements can't help me out, since the therapy isn't very effective. And I'm extremely opposed to most pharmaceuticals, except in the most extreme cases. Of course, I'm always recommended to get a prescription for adderall or ritalin or strattera, and for SSRIs or w/e. But I'm still stubborn and managing fine. :D

Rosavins and basocides and ALCAR and ALA and even inositol and uridine all seem to make my symptoms worse.

Edited by dasheenster, 26 April 2012 - 02:47 AM.

[BlueWay]

<sub>Hello JChief,

Regarding the Rosavin that helped you with your panic attacks, may I ask if you took Rosavin or Rosavin Plus? Also, what was your dosage?

Thanks.</sub>

Edited by BlueWay, 29 April 2012 - 03:27 AM.

[JChief]

<sub>Hello JChief,

Regarding the Rosavin that helped you with your panic attacks, may I ask if you took Rosavin or Rosavin Plus? Also, what was your dosage?

Thanks.</sub>

I took Rosavin (not plus) and I took the dosage as recommended on the bottle The money back guarantee is a nice bonus.

Edited by JChief, 29 April 2012 - 12:05 PM.

[choqueiro]

First day of my treatment.

In the morning (after breakfast) I took:

- 250 mg. Centrophenoxine
- 2.400 mg. Piracetam

I´m not experimenting nothing special (maybe I feel a little bit "clear head" but it´s nothing remarkable and maybe it´s a subjective or placebo sensation). No apparent mental improve.

One thing it´s true, I ´m not experimenting the headache effect that I had experimenting in my other experiences with piracetam+ alcar + alpha gpc. Piracetam alone (well, with Centro) seems to be a better option.

In the afternoon I will try 2.400 mg more of Piracetam. I´m not sure of adding Uridine UMP and all the cofactors.

[Orajel]

I cannot believe I neglected to point out that I absolutely never suffered a single panic attack again in my life after taking Rosavin . Adaptogens balance the neurotransmitters in your brain. Please give this a try before resorting to tianeptine or SSRIs. I've posted about it in other threads but hey this product worked for me. I only went through one bottle. Mind you I was taking Klonopin and liquid prozac to attempt to contain anxiety and manage frequent out-of-the-blue panic attacks. The cause of this I suspect was from several years prior as a teenager experimenting with illegal drugs (MDMA, cocaine) and legal ones (Adderall, pain killers, Xanax). I pretty much f-cked up my brain and I paid the price for it. Anyway please give this a shot. I would not substitute a cheaper brand either of siberian rhodiola rosea. Rosavin is the brand used in many many clinical studies. Sorry for not mentioning this and I'm at a loss as to why.

Have you tried any other brands? would you say thats the best brand out there?
I've been using some cheap bulk powder (100g for $11) with some success but I wonder how pure it is.

[choqueiro]

Even thoughI I´ve been only a few days on Piracetam + Centrophenoxine, I must say that I have not done any improvement. In theory the effects of both supplements are obvious in a little time, but I don´t feel anything with them. Today I´m trying less quatity of piracetam (800 mg. Piracetam + 250 mg Centro).
Maybe I must consider other options (St. John´s, L-tryptophan, Inositol ...). Many years with this problems but I do not improve a little with any supplement.

Thanks.

[Juanchob]

Hola Choqueiro. I am really interested in the outcome of your problem. I am going through exactly the same problem. I am a 31 male working in the IT industry. Some time ago I have found myself without motivation, brain fog, constant pressure headaches, sinus pressure, some TMJ (temporo mandibular joint disorder) and lots of ADHD (I cannot focus for a minute) I got to the point of almost losing my job for this. Therefore I found a new job before being fired. I am starting my new job in 2 weeks but I am afraid things have not improved and I will end up losing everything. My main symptoms are:

Lack of motivation, dizziness, nausea, vertigo, head pressure, tension headaches (constantly), sinus pressure, neck stiffness, anxiety, constant worrying, massive memory problems, mild tinnitus, social withdrawal, bowel problems, gastritis, cognitive impairment.

I have several theories about what it is going on but have not come to a conclusion. One of the culprits may be my ocassional binge drinking which I'll stop immediately. Other causes may be:

ADHD, Depression, Candida, TMJ, column misalignment, initial stages of dementia, leaky gut, food allergies, fibromyalgia, CFS, celiac disease, problems with neurotransmitters, etc.

I quit smoking some time ago and I take a daily dose of orazole. Apart from that I ear normally.

I'd really like to share experiences for I fell totally identified by your problem.

Regards.

[nooToon]

Hola Choqueiro. I am really interested in the outcome of your problem. I am going through exactly the same problem. I am a 31 male working in the IT industry. Some time ago I have found myself without motivation, brain fog, constant pressure headaches, sinus pressure, some TMJ (temporo mandibular joint disorder) and lots of ADHD (I cannot focus for a minute) I got to the point of almost losing my job for this. Therefore I found a new job before being fired. I am starting my new job in 2 weeks but I am afraid things have not improved and I will end up losing everything. My main symptoms are:

Lack of motivation, dizziness, nausea, vertigo, head pressure, tension headaches (constantly), sinus pressure, neck stiffness, anxiety, constant worrying, massive memory problems, mild tinnitus, social withdrawal, bowel problems, gastritis, cognitive impairment.

I have several theories about what it is going on but have not come to a conclusion. One of the culprits may be my ocassional binge drinking which I'll stop immediately. Other causes may be:

ADHD, Depression, Candida, TMJ, column misalignment, initial stages of dementia, leaky gut, food allergies, fibromyalgia, CFS, celiac disease, problems with neurotransmitters, etc.

I quit smoking some time ago and I take a daily dose of orazole. Apart from that I ear normally.

I'd really like to share experiences for I fell totally identified by your problem.

Regards.

I went through the same thing - I'm also in IT and it turned out it was Posture related..... I did some Psoas Physio and my Anxiety, Neck Stiffness, Fibro, IBS , TMJ all cleared up....

Look it up and get some myofascial release... it works

I Found that I hade so much inflamation and didn't realise it until everything felt better... I think it would affect alot of guys in IT, and what you are talking about is classic Upper Cross Syndrome - I should know I found out about it 3 days ago seriously though check it ,

out there is a connection

[choqueiro]

Hi Juanchob.

I also experiment many of the symptoms that you describe (I don´t suffer some of them such as vertigo, bowel problems or gastritis).

It´s really difficult to do a diagnosis of the problem because there are many pathologies that could explain our symptoms.

Right now I´m taking piracetam + centrophenoxine on a daily basis. No improvements. I usually take 250 mg. centrophenoxine + 2.400 mg. piracetam. Two days ago I took 250 mg. centrophenoxine + 4.800 mg. of piracetam (on two doses of 2.400 mg each). The results: no improvements, little edginess and a pronounced irritability.

I will continue with my actual regime even though I don´t expect much about it. At the time I´m ordering Inositol powder from Source Naturals. I´m going to give a try to this prioduct. If I don´t make any improvement then I will go with L-Tryptophan or St. John´s Wort (Kira). Let´s hope that something of these works.

I´m also waiting to test my sleep (apnea, etc.).

These problems are really frustrating and making the correct diagnosis and give the correct treatment seem to be really difficult. Please take care of yourself.

P.S. I refuse to think that I suffer dementia at my 30´s.

[Synaptik]

Hi Juanchob.

I also experiment many of the symptoms that you describe (I don´t suffer some of them such as vertigo, bowel problems or gastritis).

It´s really difficult to do a diagnosis of the problem because there are many pathologies that could explain our symptoms.

Right now I´m taking piracetam + centrophenoxine on a daily basis. No improvements. I usually take 250 mg. centrophenoxine + 2.400 mg. piracetam. Two days ago I took 250 mg. centrophenoxine + 4.800 mg. of piracetam (on two doses of 2.400 mg each). The results: no improvements, little edginess and a pronounced irritability.

I will continue with my actual regime even though I don´t expect much about it. At the time I´m ordering Inositol powder from Source Naturals. I´m going to give a try to this prioduct. If I don´t make any improvement then I will go with L-Tryptophan or St. John´s Wort (Kira). Let´s hope that something of these works.

I´m also waiting to test my sleep (apnea, etc.).

These problems are really frustrating and making the correct diagnosis and give the correct treatment seem to be really difficult. Please take care of yourself.

P.S. I refuse to think that I suffer dementia at my 30´s.

Choqueiro, perhaps you need to start from the beginning. Set a plan for yourself. That's the way I have been setting myself straight. Start by trying to understand what TYPE of depression you are suffering, before engaging on buying every supplement out there.

If you think a serotonin deficiency may be the problem, buy 5-HTP, St. John's Wort, Inositol (serotonin modulator), Same-e or Rhodiola. Start with one of those serotogenics and combine this with 4+ grams of Inositol 5 days/week. See how you respond to this. You should know within 2-3 weeks whether a serotonin deficiency is your problem. If it partially helps your predicament, maybe your problem isn't just a serotonin deficiency.

If you experience none or partial relief after trying a couple serotogenic combinations + inositol, move on to the dopamine agonists in isolation (tyrosine, phenylalanine, mucuna pruriens etc) and combine this with uridine (dopamine modulator), fish oil, B vitamin and see whether you get some relief. If so, you can try combining the serotogenics and dopamine agonists together to see whether you get a more complete response.

Then move on to the acetylcholine agonists if you still feel incomplete etc...

The point is, try different like neurotransmitter combinations in isolation and see if they work before taking a variety of substances with competing functions. I have a sense you keep jumping around from substance to substance without evaluating the results of like supplements first, and reverse-engineering the pathways to success. I know I've been able to isolate what works for me using this method, albeit in a slightly more unorganized manner. Just a thought.

Edited by Synaptik, 16 May 2012 - 02:48 AM.

[choqueiro]

Hello Synaptik.

Thanks for your recommendations. Maybe you think that I´m trying and mixing lot of products without any sense but it´s not like that.

If you read my first post you can see that I have tried many substances (Piracetam, Alcar, Alpha GPC, Ashwagandha, Bacopa, Uridine...) but I tried them in different periods of time and trying to evaluate the benefits of each susbtance alone. I also give to each susbtance the necessary time (some of them as bacopa or MgT need a long time) to evaluate it correctly. None of the susbtances has done any improvement in my issues at the moment.

Today it´s my sixteenth day on Piracetam + Centrophenoxine. As you can imagine racetams don´t need a lot of time to evaluate their effects and if I don´t see any improvement after sixteeen days, maybe it´s time to start thinking in another alternative.

Yes, I ordered Inositol. In a few days I will receive it. It´s curious that you talk about mixing Inositol with anothers serotogenics such as St. John´s Wort, 5-htp, etc. Inositol (maybe I´m wrong) not only modulates serotonin; it also raises serotonin and in many studies they advise not to mix inosittol with other serotogenics substances, because it can produces Serotonin syndrome.

Thanks.

[Synaptik]

Hello Synaptik.

Thanks for your recommendations. Maybe you think that I´m trying and mixing lot of products without any sense but it´s not like that.

If you read my first post you can see that I have tried many substances (Piracetam, Alcar, Alpha GPC, Ashwagandha, Bacopa, Uridine...) but I tried them in different periods of time and trying to evaluate the benefits of each susbtance alone. I also give to each susbtance the necessary time (some of them as bacopa or MgT need a long time) to evaluate it correctly. None of the susbtances has done any improvement in my issues at the moment.

Today it´s my sixteenth day on Piracetam + Centrophenoxine. As you can imagine racetams don´t need a lot of time to evaluate their effects and if I don´t see any improvement after sixteeen days, maybe it´s time to start thinking in another alternative.

Yes, I ordered Inositol. In a few days I will receive it. It´s curious that you talk about mixing Inositol with anothers serotogenics such as St. John´s Wort, 5-htp, etc. Inositol (maybe I´m wrong) not only modulates serotonin; it also raises serotonin and in many studies they advise not to mix inosittol with other serotogenics substances, because it can produces Serotonin syndrome.

Thanks.

Inositol in combination with another serotogenic is not strong enough to give you serotonin syndrome. You just want the serotonin to flow more evenly across the brain spectrum, and it has OCD suppressant properties.

[richardsm1]

Hey.

First of all, excuse my horrible english.

I suffer from depression, anxiety and brain fog. Since my childhood I´ve been a person with tendency to have a depressive condition (I like cloudy and rainy days, hahaha!!!) and poor sleep it has also been a constant, with daily nightmares since I was a boy.

From the 18 to the 23 years old (university) I discover "joints". During this five years I smoked hash (less the two first years and intensively the other three on a daily basis regime). I got good grades and in general I wasn´t the type of person that goes to partys in the weekends. No alcohol and no tobacco. Only joints. At 23 I quit cannabis (from one day to the next). Since that year I have not returned to smoke joints and I will not do in the future anymore. Quitting from hash wasn´t difficult. Maybe I was a little bit more irritable but not severe symptoms of withdrawal, though it is true that at the time of quit cannabis I started to smoke tobacco on a regular basis during two years until 25 years.

Right now I´m 33 years old. I practice sports regulary and my type of life is very common without excesses. The problem is that depression, anxiety and brain fog are becoming more severes. I work as a lawyer in a real state company. As you can imagine stress is the habitual thing. One year ago I discovered nootropics and started trying some compounds. Firstly I tried: Piracetam + Alpha GPC + ALCAR in different quantities, alone and mixing them. With this first attempt I tried to avoid my memory issues. No results, apart from headaches in most of the cases.

It´s curious, because the first two years after quitting pot, my mind and memory were well (in general during my 5 years of cannabis consumption I have a good memory and better mental attitude). But these last years my memory goes worse with moments of pronunced brain fog, horrible recall and poor verbal fluency. At this point I started thinking that maybe depression and anxiety were the cause (or at least an important cause) of my problems. So I tried: bacopa, vitamin B, L-theanine, ashwagandha and gotu kola with no results (yes, I know that the 2 last substances were not a good idea if I want to fight against anxiety).

Recently I have tried the "Uridine stack" with no results:
Uridine + Multivitamin + Omega 3 + Vitamin E + Alpha GPC + Magnesium L-Threonathe.

Right now I´m trying Rhodiola only ("Arctic Root" from Swedish Herbal Institute) at the suggested dose of 2 capsules per day. No effects after two weeks.

I think that I´m in a vicious circle where depression and anxiety "feed" brain fog and brain fog "feed" depression and anxiety (I´m a perfeccionist person and see that I can´t do my best in the job is really frustrating). At this point I start to think in every single possibilty that could explain my problems: I really damage my brain with hash and this is not reversible?? Is depression and anxiety destroying my mental health?? I am starting to suffer Alzheimer?? (Yes, I´m a litlle bit hypochondriac).

I know that after quitting cannabis anxiety raises. Yes, maybe after quitting pot and tobacco my irrritability and anxiety got worse but in general my memory and mental health was better the two years after quitting pot than now and that is not very logic. Could anxiety and depression in the long term be so powerful to destroy mental capacity??

Raising serotonin is a must for a person like me. I avoid 5-htp because of the heart valve damage and escitalopram (or any other SSRI) it´s not the "ideal" option according to the possible side effects. Dopamine is also a topic that worries me. Even though cannabis raises dopamine after his consumption, it is said that dopamine depletes after quitting pot. Should I take L-Tyrosine??

I´ve been reading about serotonin and dopamine imbalances after quitting pot and I´m really confused about the brain chemistry in these circumstances (contradictory information). Which of the two neurotransmitters is depleted by cannabis?? Serotonin or dopamine or both?? Most problematic is to determine the correct supplements to fix these imbalances: Taking L-Tyrosine increases dopamine but depletes serotonin and taking 5-htp (or L-Tryptophan) increases serotonin but depletes dopamine (5-htp has the added problem of the heart valve damage).

The other point that worries me is the topic of the endocannabinoid system and the possibilty of restoring to normal levels the CBs (specially the CB1 receptor) using CB agonist supplements. I must recognize that I don´t know so much of this item but searching information all around Internet I find news saying that Green Tea (EGCG and EGC) is a cb agonist. What do you think about supplementing with this?? I remind a recently scientific study which says that the combination of Greeen Tea + L-Theanine was good for memory impairment. The problems: green tea is cancerous on a daily basis at some quantities and also green tea increase anxiety and that is a serious problem in my case. Any alternatives?? I think that the endocannabinoid system is very important because it is the one who takes in charge "neurogenesis", so in theory, a weak endocannabinoid system couldn´t fix the brain via neurogenesis.

I would like to finish adding that I suffer eventually migraines (very few) and the last was four years ago. Even though, right now I have persistents little headaches the whole day. When I take supplements (in general any supplement) headaches tends to increase and brain fog deteriorates. I also, start having serious problems with my back. Right now I´m in bed after visiting my doctor who gives me 4 shots in an attempt of reducing my hurt. In addition my sleep is not good. Eventually I suffer from insomnia but in general I sleep the whole night. The problem is that sleep is not restful (I wake up with a really bad sensation similar to a headache and dizziness).

Any suggestion or opinion would be appreciated. Also any stack or supplements recommendation to attack my problems effectively and safely, would be grateful.

Thanks.


P.S. 6 months ago I start meditation and yoga classes. For problems of schedule I have to quit them Let´s hope that I can return to practice them shortly, specially meditation. I think that it can helps.

Dear choqueiro

I've just registered purposely to contact you on this issue. What you describe may not be entirely brain malfunction but sounds like you could be suffering from early onset of adrenal fatigue. The reason I say this is because I too am the workaholic type with high stress everyday at work due to running 2 companies simultaneously which got me into a similar feeling situation that you describe and worse. The symptoms you mention such as anxiety, feelings of doom and gloom, occasional insomnia, non restful sleep, brain fog etc. are all attributed with adrenal fatigue. The other clue is you say green tea causes you anxiety. This may be due to green tea having the same amount of caffeine as half a cup of coffee hence the rise in anxiety when you drink it.

Your average local Doctor cannot diagnose this as they don't have the required tests and is not part of their medical syllabus. I would recommend taking an adrenal stress test to decipher whether this is the reason. If I'm wrong at the very least you will know the health of your adrenal glands - a very important system for your body.

On a side note, I wouldn't get too hung up on your recreational use of drugs. Most people if cannabis disagrees with their system suffer from psychosis and end up in a mental institute short term. (I only know as a family member worked in one). Millions of youngsters the world over go through a fairly lengthy phase of recreational drug use me included, and still life normal lives. I would suggest the reason why you feel the way you do is based on your career and your lifestyle having a detrimental long term effects and that would be where I'd target your energy in order to get better. I would also definately consider re-commiting to the meditation and/or yoga. Meditation's easy to commit to. All you need do is sit down in a dark room and close your eyes, stay still and stay like that for just 15 - 20 minutes. Everyone I don't care how busy they are can take just 15 minutes out of their day....

For more info on adrenal stress look up drmyhill.co.uk (she's an incredible lady a medically trained doctor that fixed me up using purely supplements and diet alone.)

Anyway hope I've been of some use to you and wish you the very best of luck

[Introspecta]

Green Tea does not have the same amount of caffiene as a cup of coffee. Green tea has more like 40 mgs of caffiene. Also the effects of the caffiene should be counteracted by the L-theanine which is in green tea. For some reason it seems very few people actually get anxiety from the L-theanine rather than anti-anxiety effects that the typical person gets. It may have something to do with the dopamine stimulating properties that L-theanine has.

I do agree with Richardsm1 that the problem could be adrenal burnout. In fact many americans have burnt out adrenals but don't realize it. Also another factor could be functional hypoglycemia. This is an old thread but I wonder what the OP's diet looks like and while changing the diet doesn't always yield miraculous results refraining from artificial sugars to avoid spikes in blood glucose levels can do amazing things. Many people when getting off the sugar and sweets begin to notice their depression getting better.

Sugar Blues is a Book that gets deeper into this subject

http://www.amazon.co...y/dp/0446343129