75 replies to this topic

[choqueiro]

Hey.

First of all, excuse my horrible english.

I suffer from depression, anxiety and brain fog. Since my childhood I´ve been a person with tendency to have a depressive condition (I like cloudy and rainy days, hahaha!!!) and poor sleep it has also been a constant, with daily nightmares since I was a boy.

From the 18 to the 23 years old (university) I discover "joints". During this five years I smoked hash (less the two first years and intensively the other three on a daily basis regime). I got good grades and in general I wasn´t the type of person that goes to partys in the weekends. No alcohol and no tobacco. Only joints. At 23 I quit cannabis (from one day to the next). Since that year I have not returned to smoke joints and I will not do in the future anymore. Quitting from hash wasn´t difficult. Maybe I was a little bit more irritable but not severe symptoms of withdrawal, though it is true that at the time of quit cannabis I started to smoke tobacco on a regular basis during two years until 25 years.

Right now I´m 33 years old. I practice sports regulary and my type of life is very common without excesses. The problem is that depression, anxiety and brain fog are becoming more severes. I work as a lawyer in a real state company. As you can imagine stress is the habitual thing. One year ago I discovered nootropics and started trying some compounds. Firstly I tried: Piracetam + Alpha GPC + ALCAR in different quantities, alone and mixing them. With this first attempt I tried to avoid my memory issues. No results, apart from headaches in most of the cases.

It´s curious, because the first two years after quitting pot, my mind and memory were well (in general during my 5 years of cannabis consumption I have a good memory and better mental attitude). But these last years my memory goes worse with moments of pronunced brain fog, horrible recall and poor verbal fluency. At this point I started thinking that maybe depression and anxiety were the cause (or at least an important cause) of my problems. So I tried: bacopa, vitamin B, L-theanine, ashwagandha and gotu kola with no results (yes, I know that the 2 last substances were not a good idea if I want to fight against anxiety).

Recently I have tried the "Uridine stack" with no results:
Uridine + Multivitamin + Omega 3 + Vitamin E + Alpha GPC + Magnesium L-Threonathe.

Right now I´m trying Rhodiola only ("Arctic Root" from Swedish Herbal Institute) at the suggested dose of 2 capsules per day. No effects after two weeks.

I think that I´m in a vicious circle where depression and anxiety "feed" brain fog and brain fog "feed" depression and anxiety (I´m a perfeccionist person and see that I can´t do my best in the job is really frustrating). At this point I start to think in every single possibilty that could explain my problems: I really damage my brain with hash and this is not reversible?? Is depression and anxiety destroying my mental health?? I am starting to suffer Alzheimer?? (Yes, I´m a litlle bit hypochondriac).

I know that after quitting cannabis anxiety raises. Yes, maybe after quitting pot and tobacco my irrritability and anxiety got worse but in general my memory and mental health was better the two years after quitting pot than now and that is not very logic. Could anxiety and depression in the long term be so powerful to destroy mental capacity??

Raising serotonin is a must for a person like me. I avoid 5-htp because of the heart valve damage and escitalopram (or any other SSRI) it´s not the "ideal" option according to the possible side effects. Dopamine is also a topic that worries me. Even though cannabis raises dopamine after his consumption, it is said that dopamine depletes after quitting pot. Should I take L-Tyrosine??

I´ve been reading about serotonin and dopamine imbalances after quitting pot and I´m really confused about the brain chemistry in these circumstances (contradictory information). Which of the two neurotransmitters is depleted by cannabis?? Serotonin or dopamine or both?? Most problematic is to determine the correct supplements to fix these imbalances: Taking L-Tyrosine increases dopamine but depletes serotonin and taking 5-htp (or L-Tryptophan) increases serotonin but depletes dopamine (5-htp has the added problem of the heart valve damage).

The other point that worries me is the topic of the endocannabinoid system and the possibilty of restoring to normal levels the CBs (specially the CB1 receptor) using CB agonist supplements. I must recognize that I don´t know so much of this item but searching information all around Internet I find news saying that Green Tea (EGCG and EGC) is a cb agonist. What do you think about supplementing with this?? I remind a recently scientific study which says that the combination of Greeen Tea + L-Theanine was good for memory impairment. The problems: green tea is cancerous on a daily basis at some quantities and also green tea increase anxiety and that is a serious problem in my case. Any alternatives?? I think that the endocannabinoid system is very important because it is the one who takes in charge "neurogenesis", so in theory, a weak endocannabinoid system couldn´t fix the brain via neurogenesis.

I would like to finish adding that I suffer eventually migraines (very few) and the last was four years ago. Even though, right now I have persistents little headaches the whole day. When I take supplements (in general any supplement) headaches tends to increase and brain fog deteriorates. I also, start having serious problems with my back. Right now I´m in bed after visiting my doctor who gives me 4 shots in an attempt of reducing my hurt. In addition my sleep is not good. Eventually I suffer from insomnia but in general I sleep the whole night. The problem is that sleep is not restful (I wake up with a really bad sensation similar to a headache and dizziness).

Any suggestion or opinion would be appreciated. Also any stack or supplements recommendation to attack my problems effectively and safely, would be grateful.

Thanks.


P.S. 6 months ago I start meditation and yoga classes. For problems of schedule I have to quit them Let´s hope that I can return to practice them shortly, specially meditation. I think that it can helps.

[gamesguru]

Don't worry about being hypochondriacal. It's the least of your worries at this point. Based on what you're saying, it seems you have memory, mood, and anxiety issues whose causes you don't know. There's not much research on the long-term effects of cannabis on memory/mood/anxiety/depression, but knowing how mild cannabis is, I doubt the problems you're alleging to have could arise from pot abuse. Seeing as you really think you have some problems, and that you think these problems are resilient to most of the common supplements, I would personally recommend seeing some sort of specialist, to see if there is an underlying health problem. It could be the onset of early dementia, but let's not feed your hypochondriacal phantasy. It could also be cardiovascular disease (insufficient cerebral blood flow) or liver/kidney disease (accumulation of toxins). I would get a therapist's opinion as a baseline, just to see if s/he thinks your brain is pathological, or if you're just an eager hypochondriac. From there, you'll want to see a neurologist, and any other specialist recommended thereafter. If your symptoms are real, I think you've got something wrong unrelated to the brain which is causing fatigue, pain, perhaps even headaches and poor sleep. It could be many things. I also think your anxiety and stress are just a result of poor organization, which can probably be resolved through psychodynamic therapy.

I wouldn't think cannabinoids (including EGCG) are the full solution to your problem. To recommend a few supplements that seem generally helpful for anxiety: bacopa, rosmarinic acid, valerenic acid, aniracetam, theanine, magnesium.

[jadamgo]

Wow, it sounds like you're having a rough time despite trying hard to take good care of yourself.

First off, I think your endocannabinoid system has had more than enough time to recover. It's not permanently damaged. It gets back to normal when the cannabis withdrawal syndrome wears off, and your withdrawals ended a decade ago. And in the meantime, you've been doing great things for yourself like sports, pursuing a career as a lawyer, and recently taking the yoga and meditation classes. And you quit smoking after two years of using tobacco. That shows that you have a lot of willpower, and that you fix your mistakes.

You are right to identify depression and anxiety as the cause of these problems -- as long as you've been checked out by a good general doctor to rule out problems like hormonal imbalance and anemia. (If you haven't talked to a doctor about these problems, please do so. If it was something like thyroid deficiency, it could be corrected so quickly and easily.)

If the doctor says your body is in good health, you don't need to look any harder for the cause of the problem. It's depression and anxiety. They both cause cognitive dysfunction (memory problems, impaired attention span, trouble handling stress, etc.). You also correctly identified the vicious circle where the worse your brain fog gets, the worse you feel about yourself and your situation. This makes the depression worse, which makes the brain fog worse, which makes the depression worse, which makes the brain fog worse.... you get the point.

The cure? At this point, you're beyond supplements. It's time to do two things. One, talk to a doctor about an antidepressant that will help you feel better and think more clearly. Two, find a psychotherapist that you get along with. You are an excellent candidate for psychotherapy because you are smart and hard-working enough to be a lawyer, and you have the discipline to follow a healthy lifestyle by doing things like exercising and trying yoga/meditation. People like you usually make drastic, powerful improvements in their depression and anxiety by seeing a therapist and taking medicine.

Supplements are nice, and they can help you do better. But in order to fix your brain fog, you have to cure the problem that causes the brain fog.

[choqueiro]

Thanks for your answers.

Some things important to add:

- Last two years I did blood tests. Everything was fine.

- My doctor also looked for a thyroid problem. Everything was right.

- Already I´ve been in the neurologist. His last recommendation was test my sleep. I did this test a few months ago. After one week searching my sleep (I carried a bracelet during this week) this was the diagnosis: I sleep the whole nights in general but my sleep is not restful (I do not reach restful phases easily).

- And finally an important aspect: my wife is psychiatrist. Her diagnosis: anxiety.

Even though more tests are necessary and psychotherapy could be a solution, at this point I wolud like to reduce (as far as possible) my depression, anxiety and brain fog using the correct supplements.

As I said before SSRI is not my first option. I´ve been seraching Kira (St John´s Wort) and SAMe. SAMe could raises anxiety so maybe is not a good option. Should I try one of these options??

What about taking Uridine with L-Tyrosine?? Some users report positive experiences with this treatment (see the thread: http://www.longecity...ne-uridine-dha/)

Could L-Tyrosine or 5-htp help??

Any recommendation would be appreciated.



P.S. Let´s hope dasheenster that I don´t have an early dementia at my 33 years old.

[Baten]

I tried the choline+uridine+fish oil stack too, personally I felt like my brain was a bit rejuvenated. Didn't seem to do much for depression/ bad moods though.

What I personally recommend

• depression -> selegiline 5mg, in the morning and before sleep if it isn't too strong, otherwise just once a day
  selegiline is healthy for the brain and stimulates more dopamine, it's a mild MAOI though so after a couple of weeks cheese/wine/chocolate could give stomachaches/cramps
  also, do not combine with SSRI's(lethal)
• anxiety: you could try lysine+zinc, I take 2 tablets of 1g lysine with a bit of zinc picolinate an hour or so after lunch, and 1 tablet of lysine again with some zinc picolinate an hour or so after dinner
  this works spectacularly for me personally, I used to have frequent severe anxiety, these days I am more calm than I ever was before
  I don't know if this works as well for everyone though, but it isn't expensive so you could give it a try
• brain fog: I tried most acetylcholine stimulating substances, and I vastly prefer centrophenoxine over anything else! Instant brain fog relief for me
  centrophenoxine capsules are rather expensive though, bulk is affordable but nasty tasting. It's awesome though.
• you mention you don't have a restful sleep. You could try taking 4.8g piracetam before sleep, I personally require much less sleep while on piracetam, so this could help
  choline is also known to help insomniacs (alpha gpc / cdp choline before sleep), but overstimulating the cholinergic system could in turn induce more depression..
  other than that I don't know too much about sleep problems.. if I can't sleep because of stress, I take some l-theanine.. melatonine is pretty well known to put people to thorough sleep, but I never tried it

I think Kira, SAMe and 5-HTP are mostly useful for mood problems. I never took either of them, though. They might be worth a shot.

Personally I see antidepressants as a last resort. They can help, but they won't fix anything. They could help you through a temporary hard time, but that's about it.

Edited by Baten, 04 April 2012 - 10:46 AM.

[superM]

I explored most of the nootropics and supplements. While some did ofter a small relief of my symptoms, I decided to go the SSRI route. Depression could be the cause of your brain fog, and untreated it can be damaging.

I've had pretty good results with Lexapro (Escitalopram). Probably the most tolerable SSRI and best for anxiety (I personally have had few sexual side effects, in fact my libido has improved a bit). There is also some research suggesting SSRI's promote neurogenesis.

The only other AD I would suggest is mirtazapine, however, you will probably gain quite a bit of weight on it (and it makes you sleepy, but it could possibly be useful as a sleep aid if your anxiety troubles are affecting that).

[gamesguru]

I would try Baten's recommendations, since they are a conservative starting point. If none of his recommendations provide relief, there might be a more serious issue.

[bbminded]

One thing mainly sticks out to me that you said.... "- Already I´ve been in the neurologist. His last recommendation was test my sleep. I did this test a few months ago. After one week searching my sleep (I carried a bracelet during this week) this was the diagnosis: I sleep the whole nights in general but my sleep is not restful (I do not reach restful phases easily)".



All the symptoms your experiencing are side effects of not sleeping correctly.(not going through all the phases of sleep in order for your body to get a deep rest so you wake up feeling good and healthy?
Seek out a sleep doctor. You said you wore a bracelet and just from that your doctor could tell there is an issue with your sleep pattern. Get checked for Sleep Apnea. I dont know if your overweight or in shape, but that doesnt matter(even though some doctors will prejudge because they dont know alot about the condition). I was actually a victim of this for many many years, because on the outside i was in great shape.
It took me till i was 27yo before i demanded a sleep study(after doing my own research) from my G.P. doctor who said it would be a waste of time but would set it up for me.
I had a pretty severe case(260 apneas in a 6 hour night), and it was because my tongue was a bit larger than normal in the back, so it would fall back and choke me, thus causing extreme snoring before my body would jerk itself because of the lack of oxygen to my brain. Not to mention my deviated septum and enlarged tonsils making it worse as well.
Now i sleep with a CPAP machine(no drugs needed) and get a full nights rest, becasue my body now goes through all the sleep cycles its supposed to
There are millions of people with this issue and dont know it becasue its not something alot of Dr.'s know to look for..plus it doesnt require drugs, and will actually cure many problems that go along with not getting sleep(like depression, anxiety, brain fog, tired all the time, etc etc).

I again am speaking from experience! Hope this might help!

[JChief]

Maybe tackle the acetylcholine pathway. If you can find capped centrophenoxine I'd give it a shot as I have found that to relieve brain fog right away and provides a mild antidepressant quality with improved focus that seems to combine well with piracetam. I know you've tried piracetam before but due to its anxiolytic (anti-anxiety) profile I'd say it's worth another shot combined with centro to relieve anxiety.

Your diet is another big factor in your well being. If you are on a sugar ridden high carb diet full of processed foods and meats then all bets are off.

[JChief]

I would also suggest further experimenting by taking 500mg l-tryptophan (serotonin and melatonin precursor) and 500mg taurine before bed. In the mornings maybe start the day as I do, (1 tsp) piracetam and 250mg centrophenoxine and 350-500mg of tyrosine (in the form of NALT). I would continue your uridine stack as it may support your efforts.

Piracetam improves the function of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine via muscarinic cholinergic (ACh) receptors which are implicated in memory processes. Furthermore, Piracetam may have an effect on NMDA glutamate receptors, which are involved with learning and memory processes. Piracetam is thought to increase cell membrane permeability. You mentioned verbal fluency decreased yet one of the main benefits of piracetam are enhancement of verbal memory.

Meclofenoxate (Lucidril), also known as centrophenoxine, is clinically shown to improve memory, have a mentally stimulating effect, and improve general cognition. It is an ester of dimethylethanolamine (DMAE) and 4-chlorophenoxyacetic acid (pCPA). DMAE is a natural substance, found especially in fish. pCPA is a synthetic compound that resembles a variety of plant hormones called auxins. Short-term studies have shown an increase in vigilance and alertness with a positive influence on mood following administration of DMAE. Research for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) has been promising, though inconclusive.

ACh has an important role in the enhancement of sensory perceptions when we wake up and in sustaining attention. ACh is involved with synaptic plasticity, specifically in learning and short-term memory.

Researchers at MIT examined other likely candidates for supporting the brain’s self-maintenance system. Uridine—a compound of the same class as the building blocks of RNA—showed great promise. For example, in one study when uridine was combined with choline and omega-3 DHA (all components of cell membranes), brain levels of PC rose by 45%.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

MIT’s research has shown that administration of uridine increases the production of neurites and dendrites. These outgrowths from the nerve cell body are a natural part of neuron development. When a neuron has these outgrowths, it is more likely to make connections with other neurons—not only more connections but more complex connections. Simply stated, the higher number of dendrites, the better cognitive function.

Uridine’s conversion to CDP-choline in the brain makes additional choline available throughout the brain. So uridine doesn’t just build new neurons and repair damaged ones. It also acts as an additional source of choline throughout the brain. This additional choline increases production of ACh. If there isn’t enough choline, then your brain doesn’t replace the lost ACh. Your brain starts to malfunction. You forget things. It’s harder to make complex decisions. Clear thought becomes more difficult.

In addition to increasing ACh synthesis directly by providing additional choline, uridine administration also increases the production of another neurotransmitter, dopamine.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

One of the ways science is advanced is by trial and error. The scientific method dictates that researchers form a hypothesis and test it, discarding negative results and moving forward on positive results...

Edited by JChief, 10 April 2012 - 09:10 AM.

[JChief]

Oh and definitely get your sleep tested - my father suffered from the same thing. You don't know unless you actually get tested. The only other addition you might try is DLPA. The mechanism of DL-phenylalanine's supposed antidepressant activity may be accounted for by the precursor role of L-phenylalanine in the synthesis of the neurotransmitters norepinephrine and dopamine. Elevated brain levels of norepinephrine and dopamine are thought to have an antidepressant effect. You would take tyrosine (NALT) and phenylalanine (DLPA) in the mornings and taurine and tryptophan in the evenings.

Edited by JChief, 10 April 2012 - 10:14 AM.

[choqueiro]

Hey.

Thanks so much for all the answers. These days I have been disconnected of Internet because of easter holidays (I went to the beach).

Yes, bbminded and JChief, I should check my sleep. In the next text I´m going to sleep the whole night in the hospital and doctors will monitor me. According to apnea I must say that occasionally I wake up in the middle of the night because I do not have air. The curious is that sometimes the same thing happens to me been awake. I get really nervous when this happens.

I´m a little bit confused about all the suggested supplements. Nobody suggests St John´s Wort (Kira). It´s curious because JChief suggests taking L-tyrosine and L-Tryptophan alone and St John´s Wort it is said to inhibit the uptake of 5-HT, dopamine, and noradrenaline. I´m not a big fan of L-Tryptophan because of the heart valve damage so I´m not really sure about taking this supplement. In my first post I suggested raising both dopamine and serotonin levels but only JChief thinks that raising this levels would be beneficial in my case. Any opinion about this?? Could it help in my case??

Yes dasheenster, Baten´s recommendations seem really interesting. I´m not familiar with those supplements. Does centrophenoxine could worsen my anxiety?? Is a safe supplement in the long term??

In another point, Baten is the only one that talks about selegiline (deprenyl). Many users in this forum satisfied with this substance. I don´t know if it would be a good idea try deprenyl. Maybe if we take in consideration deprenyl we also must take in consideration escitalopram as superM (or ScienceGuy in another threads) suggest.

I´m really confused. Any recommendation would be appreciated.


P.S. Another thing that happens me frequently in the last years is that I make a lot of typing errors.

[goatz]

Lithium Orotate + Mindfulness meditation. Drop all the other supps, dont use any meds.

Edited by goatz, 10 April 2012 - 11:27 PM.

[JChief]

choqueiro, basically I was focusing more on the cholinergic system and a recommendation to address possible acetylcholine deficiency (ie brain fog) while recommending amino acids (read: low risk) to address overall brain health and therefore supporting production of many key neurotransmitters. Should you choose to go another route St John's Wort should be tried before resorting to more powerful medicines if at all possible, in my opinion. Centrophenoxine is central to the brain fog issue. Great that you are getting sleep tested.

[choqueiro]

Thanks JChief.

Let´s talk about an hypothetical stack. According to your suggestions (and also Baten´s recommendations), centrophenoxine and piracetam are a must. Some questions about it:

1) Baten suggests take piracetam before sleep and you suggest taking it in the morning. I´m a little bit surprised about Baten´s recommendation. I don´t want to slep less (Baten says: "personally require much less sleep while on piracetam"). Should I take piracetam in the morning??

2) Does piracetam and centrophenoxine in the long term have any possitive effects or the improvements will dissapear after his discontinuation??

3) Quantities of each one and best time to take them??

4) Brands?? Does Relentless Improvement Piracetam and Centrophenoxine are a good choice??

The next point is the uridine stack. I don´t want to make a combo with a lot of susbtances. The last time I tried uridine I was taking daily:

a) Uridine UMP: 250 mg
b) Alpha GPC: 500 mg (2 capsules)
c) DHA: 1800 mg DHA and 360 mg EPA (2 capsules)
d) Multivitamin AOR Ortho Core: (6 capsules)
e) Vitamin E AOR: (1 capsule)

It is logical that I will not need Alpha GPC if I take centrophenoxine. If I add Uridine UMP should I add also all the other cofactors?? It´s Uridine with all the cofactors a good idea??

In addition, you suggest to take L-tryptophan and L-tyrosine. Any other way of increasing serotonin without the heart valve risk of L-Tryptophan?? Another thing that worries me is that in words of MrHappy (creator of the thread: GPC, Uridine, DHA) "5HTP will be a slight conflict with uridine". Modulating dopamine and serotonin with different substances could be a problem??

At last, I continue having doubts about deprenyl (selegiline). Baten suggests that it can help with my depression. What dou you think??

So at this time I´m only sure about: Piracetam and Centrophenoxine. I have doubts about the rest of the components: Uridine (and all the cofactors), L-tryptophan + L-Tyrosine and Deprenyl. Any help forming the stack would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[MattJ]

I know exactly what you're dealing with because I've had "brain fog" and anxiety for the past couple years now. I can't say I've been depressed, but certainly less motivated to do thing, even if it's small tasks that would seem insignificant to most people.

Anyway, a couple of week ago I started taking a supplement that has 5-HTP and a small amount of Valerian Root in it. Here's the link:
http://www.cvs.com/C...jump&navCount=3

I take one in the morning and one before bed and I could notice a difference the day after I started. I feel a lot less anxious about things and find it easier to just "get things done" so more motivation.

I've also been taking liquid B-12 drops every morning when I get up. This also helps me a LOT with energy and being able to focus (getting rid of the "brain fog"). B-12 deficiencies are really pretty common and the drops are the best way to replenish it because it goes right into your blood stream.

I wanted to point these two things out because it has helped me quite a bit, so maybe it would be worth trying for you.

Good luck!

[JChief]

1) Baten suggests take piracetam before sleep and you suggest taking it in the morning. I´m a little bit surprised about Baten´s recommendation. I don´t want to slep less (Baten says: "personally require much less sleep while on piracetam"). Should I take piracetam in the morning??

Honestly there was a time when piracetam did make me tired. But I was also taking Alpha GPC at the time. Ever since I stopped taking Alpha GPC I never got tired really from piracetam any more. And trust me if you are combining it with centrophenoxine then I'd think drowsiness would be much less of a possibility. Everybody is different though. Trial and error is part of the process. Piracetam's noticeable effects last about 5 hours or so and taking it during the evening you will be sleeping during the acute effects of the substance. During the day seems more logical to me but hey that's just me. Moving on

2) Does piracetam and centrophenoxine in the long term have any possitive effects or the improvements will dissapear after his discontinuation??

Long term studies are limited with regard to centro. Piracetam has been studied extensively. Long term effects are not really known over the course of one's lifetime. You place your bets. I encourage further research. Wikipedia is a great place. So is Google Scholar and, well, plain ol Google. I'd feel much better taking these supplements over Lexapro et al. What I know for certain is that people aren't dropping dead taking this stuff.

3) Quantities of each one and best time to take them??

Well start with a low dose of each and assess your tolerance. I personally take a heaping teaspoon which is, what 5 grams? Piracetam is water soluble and therefore best taken on an empty stomach as a general rule. You should still notice effects even if you take it with food though. Take it in the morning and if it makes you tired for some reason then, well, just cross that bridge when you need to. But centro should be taken with some food on your stomach as it can result in mild nausea. 250mg in capsule form is what I take once per day in the morning after breakfast.

4) Brands?? Does Relentless Improvement Piracetam and Centrophenoxine are a good choice??

Centro is hard to find for some reason. RI is where I get mine so I give it a thumbs up. I think their piracetam is overpriced but apparently they brag about it being the purest and offer CoAs to prove it. My current batch of piracetam powder I got from Cerebral Health but their customer service is substandard but their prices are acceptable for bulk powders.

The next point is the uridine stack. I don´t want to make a combo with a lot of susbtances. The last time I tried uridine I was taking daily:

a) Uridine UMP: 250 mg
b) Alpha GPC: 500 mg (2 capsules)
c) DHA: 1800 mg DHA and 360 mg EPA (2 capsules)
d) Multivitamin AOR Ortho Core: (6 capsules)
e) Vitamin E AOR: (1 capsule)

Looks fantastic as a good multi is pretty much a must in our diets, omega 3s look fine, and that's a low dose of uridine you were taking if it was UMP variety. I assume you were taking it sublingually? I take 100mg of the TAU variety with food since it is fat soluble along with fish oil after breakfast (along with the centro).

It is logical that I will not need Alpha GPC if I take centrophenoxine. If I add Uridine UMP should I add also all the other cofactors?? It´s Uridine with all the cofactors a good idea??

I believe uridine with the cofactors are good and not because it's a necessity to make uridine "work" but because it is downright healthy to take a good multi and some studies indicate that uridine in combination with fish oil can positively impact mood. I take the TAU variety of uridine as it is many times more bioavailable when taken orally compared to the UMP variety.

In addition, you suggest to take L-tryptophan and L-tyrosine. Any other way of increasing serotonin without the heart valve risk of L-Tryptophan??

Unfortunately no other than Lexapro or some other medication that comes with its own risks. Don't underestimate the role of Ach, DA, & not just SE in depression.

Another thing that worries me is that in words of MrHappy (creator of the thread: GPC, Uridine, DHA) "5HTP will be a slight conflict with uridine". Modulating dopamine and serotonin with different substances could be a problem??

Well uridine may affect dopamine release while 5HTP is a serotonin precursor. With the same risks as tryptophan. Personally I do not think 500mg of it is a whole lot and I'm betting that the negative studies had the subjects take way more tryptophan than the equivalent of 500mg once in the evenings.

At last, I continue having doubts about deprenyl (selegiline). Baten suggests that it can help with my depression. What dou you think??

Deprenyl I took a long long time ago. It must not have done much because I don't remember what it even did. Granted this was about 10 years ago.

So at this time I´m only sure about: Piracetam and Centrophenoxine. I have doubts about the rest of the components: Uridine (and all the cofactors), L-tryptophan + L-Tyrosine and Deprenyl. Any help forming the stack would be appreciated.

Fair enough. You gotta start somewhere. I always say take a good multi first, exercise, get good sleep, be mindful of what we eat, and then go for:
30min-1hr before breakfast: piracetam (start at 1/4 tsp on empty stomach day 1, 1/2 tsp day 2, increase to 1 tsp by day 4 and assess where you are at)
after breakfast: centro 250 mg, uridine 75-100mg TAU, fish oil, multi.

See where that gets you.

Thanks.

Welcome and remember it's only a suggestion.

Edited by JChief, 11 April 2012 - 05:17 PM.

[choqueiro]

Thanks so much JChief.

I should go with your combo: "30min-1hr before breakfast: piracetam (start at 1/4 tsp on empty stomach day 1, 1/2 tsp day 2, increase to 1 tsp by day 4 and assess where you are at) after breakfast: centro 250 mg, uridine 75-100mg TAU, fish oil, multi.

Two questions:

1) My uridine is UMP and i take it sublingually. Do you recommend me change to TAU variety??

2) With this initial combo I will try to fight against brain fog but taking uridine, piracetam and centro I could fight effectively against depression and anxiety?? I say this because in general these substances are used because of his nootropics effects (not because of their antidepressive or antianxiety effects).

PS Thanks also to MattJ. 5-htp maybe is a must. The only problem is that it can be harmful (heart valve damage).

[choqueiro]

I´ve been reading about centrophenoxine (http://www.antiagein...dril-lipofuscin). In the paragraph of side effects it is said: "It can also lead to insomnia, irritability and hyperexcitability, agitation and restlessness". It is also said: "If you are suffering from depression, mania, seizure disorders or Parkinson’s disease, you should avoid Centrophenoxine, as too much acetylcholine may worsen these conditions".

It seems that centrophenoxine could be a good supplement for the brain fog but not the best substance to fight against depression and anxiety. As I said in my previous post, a stack with only: piracetam + centrophenoxine + uridine (with all the cofactors) maybe is not the best combo against depression and anxiety.

Any opinion or suggestion??

Thanks

[Baten]

I´ve been reading about centrophenoxine (http://www.antiagein...dril-lipofuscin). In the paragraph of side effects it is said: "It can also lead to insomnia, irritability and hyperexcitability, agitation and restlessness". It is also said: "If you are suffering from depression, mania, seizure disorders or Parkinson’s disease, you should avoid Centrophenoxine, as too much acetylcholine may worsen these conditions".

It seems that centrophenoxine could be a good supplement for the brain fog but not the best substance to fight against depression and anxiety. As I said in my previous post, a stack with only: piracetam + centrophenoxine + uridine (with all the cofactors) maybe is not the best combo against depression and anxiety.

Any opinion or suggestion??

Thanks

Remember that all acetylcholinergic substances have those side effects if you overstimulate it by taking too much.
You mention you took alpha gpc, did you feel lethargic, irritable, agressive or extra depressed at the time?
I believe it's only a matter of not taking too much, and centrophenoxine below 1g should definitely be safe, suggested use is 250-3000mg so the upper limit is high (too high, don't take 3 grams lol).

Edited by Baten, 12 April 2012 - 09:40 AM.

[choqueiro]

Hey Baten.

Nice to see you in this thread. I´m really interested in your opinion. Your suggested stack looks really promising.

Yes, as you can see in one of the previous posts, during the time I tried Uridine I took also Alpha GPC at the suggested dose of 500 mg per day (2 capsules). I also took Alpha GPC the first time I tried nootropics (see the first post of this thread: "Firstly I tried: Piracetam + Alpha GPC + ALCAR). In both cases I didn´t experiment any benefit. Only hedaches.

I must also say, that when I tried Alpha GPC with piracetam and ALCAR, I tried different dosages (one time I tried a dosage of 2.500 mg). No effects. With regard to irritability or aggressiveness, I must say that in fact that is my general mood (before and after supplements, with or without supplements). I always have been a very irritable person, but in this last years this mood has worsened (don´t mistake I´m not fighting "phisically" with everyone, contrary I´m a pacific person but I feel very irritable and I think that it´s something to do with my anxiety).

As you can see, right now I´m sure of trying Piracetam and Centrophenoxine. I´m not sure about trying the "Uridine stack" and nobody except you suggests me to take something for depression. As I explained in a previous post with piracetam and centrophenoxine maybe I will fight effectively against brain fog but not against depression and anxiety. You are the only one that suggests me deprenyl (superM suggests Lexapro but I think like you and I also "see antidepressants as a last resort"). Do you see deprenyl as a must in my case?? Any problem making a stack of: piracetam + centrophenoxine + deprenyl??

Thanks for your time Baten.

[JChief]

"Both scores revealed a better mood for the active drug group thus corroborating the results from EEG analysis. Therefore the vitamine-mineral drug combination containing DMAE can be interpreted to induce a psychophysiological state of better feeling of wellbeing on both levels of analysis mood and electrical pattern of brain activity in subjects suffering from borderline emotional disturbance." http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12844472


Not saying you have "emotional disturbance" but I only point this out to demonstrate that, since centro is an ester of DMAE, I wouldn't worry about worsening depression unless you take too high of a dose or already have high Ach levels. At only 250mg you should know pretty quick if anything negative results and you should rest easy knowing it won't kill you to just stop taking it if it causes any trouble. Personally, my mood is heightened because I feel much more alert and that in turn gives me a positive disposition knowing I'm in a better state of mind. It's good to be cautious though!

Edited by JChief, 12 April 2012 - 05:01 PM.

[choqueiro]

Thanks Jchief. Interesting information. I´m going to try centro (I will be cautious). Let´s hope it helps.

[MattJ]

Good luck. Let us know your results!

[Baten]

You are the only one that suggests me deprenyl (superM suggests Lexapro but I think like you and I also "see antidepressants as a last resort"). Do you see deprenyl as a must in my case?? Any problem making a stack of: piracetam + centrophenoxine + deprenyl??

I suggested deprenyl because it's something I have personal and good expierence with, while I have bad experiences with antidepressants, so my views might be a bit biased.
None the less generic deprenyl is really cheap, so it's worth a try in my opinion. It aids me greatly in stimulating dopamine in the brain = feeling overall much less depressed.
It isn't a must, though. Nor would I take it long-term (longer than a couple of months), since dopamine and serotonin modulating is unpredictable regarding the human reward system.
You could get motivated, but you could get lazy since you don't feel depressed and start not giving a damn about anything. It's a great thing to take when you need it, though.

I have taken piracetam+centrophenoxine+deprenyl(+more) for months with no negative effects. Some days I felt overstimulated and skipped a day, but other than that it's a good stack.

[choqueiro]

I´ve been reading about deprenyl and many users report that their depression worsened after deprenyl (also withdrawal problems in some cases).

I´m sure about trying Piracetam + Centrophenoxine, so actually I doubt between these stacks:

1) Piracetam + Centrophenoxine + Deprenyl (problems: depression could worsen and deprenyl it´s only reccomended for occasional use).
2) Piracetam + Centrophenoxine + Kira -St. John´s Wort - (No one suggested this substance in this thread for treating effectively depression or anxiety).
3) Piracetam + Centrophenoxine + Uridine (Could be innefective for treating depression and anxiety and it can also be ineffective without taking L-tyrosine).
4) Piracetam + Centrophenoxine + L-Tyrosine + L-Tryptophan (Possible heart valve damage using L-Tryptophan and it´s really difficult to balanced the serotonin and dopamine levels, because L-Tyrosine increases dopamine but decreases serotonin and L-Tryptophan do the opposite).

Any preference?? Any recommendation?? Any other alternative??

Thanks

[Reformed-Redan]

Uridine + B complex + Fish Oil.

Potentially deprenyl and exercise. Deprenyl helps keep you running when you want to stop.

[JChief]

Any other alternative??
Thanks

Tianeptine might be an option if you wanted to address serotonin. You might want to read up on it. It appears to have less side effects in comparison to SSRIs. It's a class of drug called SSRE's. Here's more information:

A selective serotonin reuptake enhancer (SSRE) is a type of drug which enhances the plasmalemmal reuptake of the neurotransmitter serotonin, leading to a decrease in its synaptic concentrations and therefore a decrease in serotonergic neurotransmission.[1]

The only known drug of this class is tianeptine (Stablon, Coaxil, Tatinol), which is structurally related to the tricyclic antidepressants yet has an entirely distinct mechanism of action. The precise mechanism of action of tianeptine remains unclear despite several decades of research and clinical use, and while it has been speculated that tianeptine might act as an allosteric modulator of the serotonin transporter at a separate site to that used by SSRIs, newer research suggests that its direct action is actually alteration of AMPA glutamate receptor activity, which then leads to enhanced serotonin reuptake via a downstream mechanism which has yet to be fully characterised, but seems to involve altered neuroplasticity and release of BDNF.[2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9]

SSREs are used as antidepressants for the treatment of depression and anxiety, and are in marked contrast to other antidepressants such as the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), which inhibit the reuptake of serotonin instead.[1][10] SSREs have been demonstrated to be as effective as SSRIs against depression, have a much faster onset of action (immediate), and have a much better tolerability profile,[1][10] although interestingly, it has also been shown that the SSRI fluoxetine can substitute for tianeptine in animal studies.[11]

Although several related compounds are disclosed in the original patent,[12] it is unclear whether these share tianeptine's unique pharmacological effects. Amineptine, the most closely related drug to have been widely studied, is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor with no significant effect on serotonin levels (conversely, tianeptine has no affinity for the dopamine transporter).

Source: http://en.wikipedia....uptake_enhancer

Edited by JChief, 14 April 2012 - 02:30 AM.

[choqueiro]

Hi.

I´ve been reading about one particular symptom that I suffer: irritability. It is said that irritability is caused by an excess of dopamine (and low serotonion). Is this true?? In this case, uridine or L-tyrosine would be harmful??

Another question: St. John´s Wort + Piracetam + Centrophenoxine could be a problematic combo??

thanks

[JChief]

Forget the tyrosine for now. Uridine isn't "harmful" so nothing to worry about there. Forget St John's Wort for now. Just go with the earlier stack and see where things are at. There are lots of hypothetical scenarios. To say irritability is caused solely by excess dopamine sounds a bit simplistic don't you? Start simple and add and/or subtract based on your symptoms. Just because something would benefit dopamine and another serotonin doesn't make it problematic necessarily. If you are hell bent on raising your serotonin levels you'll have to take some risk. tryptophan/5HTP carries some potential risk, tianeptine has some potential side effects, SSRIs have side effects as well. You want to get rid of the brain fog don't you? Maybe that can help you map out a better plan by addressing it through centro + piracetam. Boosting your serotonin probably won't give you the sharpness you are seeking without some adjunct. Potent supplements that target the cholinergic system are one way to get rid of that fog. Just because you are depressed doesn't mean you need to go boosting your serotonin levels alone is what I am saying.