478 replies to this topic

[knutsayang]

Hi, I am a long time lurker here. I am doing my PhD and towards the end of my candidature and need to put in long hours of work. I am also kind of ADD. I was on Dexamphetamine but I found that I have an addictive personality and ended up wasting more time on it doing other stuff than getting work done.

My primary concern is being concentrated on my work in terms of focus and motivation. Lately I have tried the following with some level of positive effect.

Piracetam - 1800mg x 4
Choline - When needed
ALCAR - 2000 mg daily
L-Tyrosine - 2000mg daily
Bacopa
Ashwagandha - for stress
Ginkgo
Fish Oil

I have oxiracetam, aniracetam, Rhodiola, sulbutamine and DMAE on the way and I would like to incorporate them slowly into my regimen after testing each.


Before I get to my main question, can i ask the experienced members here to PLEASE tell me if this is a safe regimen? Are there any contraindcations? Is this regiment ok without causing any adverse health effects for the next 3 months at least? I would really appreciate any advice.

Now I also came across some details about preworkout supplements and people using them as nootropics. I have been reading a lot of good stuff about this newer one called Driven Sports Craze. People using it for workouts report tunnel vision, focus, motivation, drive, sense of well-being etc. You can look up the reviews online there are tons of it. It sounds like a damn good thing you could use for studying as well.

Here are the details of whats in it http://www.bodybuild...orts/craze.html

After seeing all the reviews and hearing everyone rave about it, I have one on the way and cant wait to try it out.

Do you think its safe to use that to study? Also are there any compounds in there which might cause contraindications with any of the above nootropics, i am taking plus planning to take?

There is some debate going on though about its stimulant properites and there is a law suit which they are fighting apparently.

http://anabolicminds...ze-lawsuit.html

Thank you so much for your feedback! Sorry for such a long first post!

[JChief]

That amount of ALCAR would make me jittery - anything over 500mg would and ended up being my sweet spot. So 500mg on empty stomach twice per day was sufficient for me. But this may not be the case for you. This is a timely post because I'd say your stack would be better if you added centrophenoxine to your regimen. I take 250mg in the AM with piracetam and it increases focus and concentration better than any other supplement I've tried. Even sulbutiamine. Noopept might be the only exception but it's not a viable long term solution.

[gamesguru]

And just how confident are you that centrophenoxine is a "viable long-term solution"?

[knutsayang]

That amount of ALCAR would make me jittery - anything over 500mg would and ended up being my sweet spot. So 500mg on empty stomach twice per day was sufficient for me. But this may not be the case for you. This is a timely post because I'd say your stack would be better if you added centrophenoxine to your regimen. I take 250mg in the AM with piracetam and it increases focus and concentration better than any other supplement I've tried. Even sulbutiamine. Noopept might be the only exception but it's not a viable long term solution.

Thank Jchief. I've noticed a bit of jitteriness and anxiety with alcar towards the end of the day. I might reduce my dosage.

I'll look up centrophenoxine. What do you think about using the DS Craze preworkout as a study aid? Any feedback on the content of that on the site? Many of the users were commending it on an almost amphetamine like focus. Thinking of using it as a short term study aid to get stuff done in short bursts.

[JChief]

And just how confident are you that centrophenoxine is a "viable long-term solution"?

I only know that noopept causes irritability after several weeks use and is therefore not a viable long term solution. It even says on the package to not take for more than 30 days. So far so good with centro though. And if you do some research 250mg is at the low end of the usual dosages, it has low toxicity and has been studied enough that I feel it won't poop out after a few days.

[JChief]

That amount of ALCAR would make me jittery - anything over 500mg would and ended up being my sweet spot. So 500mg on empty stomach twice per day was sufficient for me. But this may not be the case for you. This is a timely post because I'd say your stack would be better if you added centrophenoxine to your regimen. I take 250mg in the AM with piracetam and it increases focus and concentration better than any other supplement I've tried. Even sulbutiamine. Noopept might be the only exception but it's not a viable long term solution.

Thank Jchief. I've noticed a bit of jitteriness and anxiety with alcar towards the end of the day. I might reduce my dosage.

I'll look up centrophenoxine. What do you think about using the DS Craze preworkout as a study aid? Any feedback on the content of that on the site? Many of the users were commending it on an almost amphetamine like focus. Thinking of using it as a short term study aid to get stuff done in short bursts.

As for DS Craze my gut says you should avoid it until the guinea pigs give it a go . I have creatine, and take L-Citrulline to boost NO, and I know what caffeine feels like so the "magic" must be in the "propriety blend" of phenylethylamines? (Alcohol and THC increase phenylethylamine levels by a 4-fold.) I haven't heard of some of the other extracts. jack3d isn't healthy long term either in my opinion and this seems similar. Baten on this board has said he's seen good results with Focus XT (probably the vinpocetine/DMAE). If you take centro there's no need to take DMAE. You wouldn't want to overdo it.

Edited by JChief, 11 April 2012 - 04:55 AM.

[knutsayang]

That amount of ALCAR would make me jittery - anything over 500mg would and ended up being my sweet spot. So 500mg on empty stomach twice per day was sufficient for me. But this may not be the case for you. This is a timely post because I'd say your stack would be better if you added centrophenoxine to your regimen. I take 250mg in the AM with piracetam and it increases focus and concentration better than any other supplement I've tried. Even sulbutiamine. Noopept might be the only exception but it's not a viable long term solution.

Thank Jchief. I've noticed a bit of jitteriness and anxiety with alcar towards the end of the day. I might reduce my dosage.

I'll look up centrophenoxine. What do you think about using the DS Craze preworkout as a study aid? Any feedback on the content of that on the site? Many of the users were commending it on an almost amphetamine like focus. Thinking of using it as a short term study aid to get stuff done in short bursts.

As for DS Craze my gut says you should avoid it until the guinea pigs give it a go . I have creatine, and take L-Citrulline to boost NO, and I know what caffeine feels like so the "magic" must be in the "propriety blend" of phenylethylamines? (Alcohol and THC increase phenylethylamine levels by a 4-fold.) I haven't heard of some of the other extracts. jack3d isn't healthy long term either in my opinion and this seems similar. Baten on this board has said he's seen good results with Focus XT (probably the vinpocetine/DMAE). If you take centro there's no need to take DMAE. You wouldn't want to overdo it.

So is centro more effective than DMAE? I have already ordered some DMAE from twinlabs with the dropper. I read some not so positive stuff about DMAE though, but to do with longterm use. Well after I had put in an order mostly. Haha.

I might just try the DS Craze this one time and keep you guys updated on how its going (since I think it arrives by post tomorrow).

[JChief]

Please do keep us posted. Also, I have never tried DMAE only centro. Centro is a keeper on this end

[knutsayang]

Anyone else here who has used preworkout supplements/stimulants to focus/study? Any experiences/warnings?

[unregistered_user]

I think this is somewhat common, especially in communities like bodybuilding.com, anabolicminds.com and mindandmuscle.net. A lot of them have caffeine, 1,3-dimethylamylamine, EGCG, etc. These are all things that lend themselves to energy, focus, and stimulation.

I have never used "Driven Sports Craze" but look forward to your review.

[Junk Master]

Modafinil is a great pre-workout stimulant and not a bad nootropic either. I'm messing with 1,3-dim right now and can't say if I like it or not. Pretty mild. Cleaner than caffeine, aspirin, grapefruit, ephedrine stacks.

Reservatrol is very nice pre-cardio session, and I do think it increases focus, or at least motivation, by being anti-estrogenic.

[elovefire]

What r the noots in the DS craze? I saw the label but could not decifer it. I wud like to try this prework out

[elovefire]

Oh and what's the suppossed Synthetic amphetamine analogue in the Craze? And is that supposed to be like ritalin or aderall or extacy or what?

[MattJ]

Yeah if anyone tries DS Craze I would be interested to know what they think of it... for working out or not.

[IanA87]

I use DS Craze for just this purpose. I am a masters student doing research in the computer science field. It works quite well at 1/2 scoop once or twice a week, for me. I would not use it all week because it makes sleep very difficult. I use it when I need to get 6 hours or more of coding done in a night, which happens to be twice a week.

[knutsayang]

Oh and what's the suppossed Synthetic amphetamine analogue in the Craze? And is that supposed to be like ritalin or aderall or extacy or what?

The makers are claiming there is no such thing and that its a ploy by competitors and that's why they are fighting it. Amphetamine analogue would be something like adderall i guess. But I doubt it, i mean they cant be that stupid and hope to get away with it surely!

I use DS Craze for just this purpose. I am a masters student doing research in the computer science field. It works quite well at 1/2 scoop once or twice a week, for me. I would not use it all week because it makes sleep very difficult. I use it when I need to get 6 hours or more of coding done in a night, which happens to be twice a week.

Thanks Ian, can you tell us more about your subjective experience while on it and how it relates to the act of getting work done? Is it more for focus alone or motivation as well? Can u still multi-task/think creatively or conceptually or is it sort of a one-track focus?

Edited by knutsayang, 12 April 2012 - 03:14 AM.

[gamesguru]

I must be overly conservative, seeing as I shun chronic caffeine use, and even creatine! I don't advise anyone getting hooked on any preworkout supplements. I think slow-digesting milk protein (casein) has proven benefits for weight training, and slow-digesting carbs have proven benefits for cardio exercise. Fats are important for many other bodily functions, so a variety is best, and some around your workout. Not much else is necessary imo.

Edited by dasheenster, 12 April 2012 - 03:20 AM.

[bestbefore]

I have used Craze for a couple of months as a pre-workout for bodybuilding and later for studying. It's a real potent mix of ingredients and it will give you a crazy focus. For me it's the best 'nootropic' there is, because it lifts my brain fog very noticeably. Words flow far more easily, it's like I don't have to think that much anymore before making my point. Some people can't sleep on it, and I can understand why. The focus/energy last almost all day. I have taken it 3 times a week early in the morning and I can still feel it a bit in the evening. But I sleep fine, just don't take it late in the afternoon. One warning, really, really don't take more then 1 scoop at least for a couple of weeks and be careful with what other ingredients you combine this. I do fine with 0.8 scoop. I've tried 1.5 and 2 scoops, but that's way too much focus and stimulation (I think it's called mania?). It also gives me a slight mood boost. I don't usually praise products this much, but it's really a good product for working out and if you want to get a lot of work done without getting distracted. It also helps me with a few extra reps and endurance during training.

So you'll get a crazy focus with a slight mood boost and motivation that works almost the entire day. Negative side effects are pretty much non-existent, except for if you take more then the recommended dose.

[knutsayang]

Hi so i got my DS craze today. Compared to all the other noots ive been taking, i can definitely feel the difference. i took a scoop about 2 hours ago and started doing my writing/reading work about 10mts later. It kicks in about 45mts after intake. And I there is a definite focus, n tunnel vision and motivation. Being at least partly ADD i tend to do 10mts of work and then get distracted by something else n then find it hard to come back. But here definitely I was doing stuff obsessively.

To be honest, it does feel very amphetamine like. For one, my hands and feet are quite cold, which was common for me on dexamphetamine. Two, my pupils are definitely slightly dilated. Three, the focus is quite strong and not subtle like other stuff. So maybe there is something to that lawsuit. I dont know. I used to come down pretty bad on dexamphetamine, so I am not yet sure whether there is a comedown on this. I hope its gentle. I also am not sure about the long term safety of this product. While I would urge others to give it a go, I dont want to speculate on its safety or addictive possibility. All I can tell is its working for the last 1.5 hours almost.

Also I took 1600mg Piracetam along with it. i might take some ashwagandha soon just to prevent any come down which ususally affects my mood and productivity.

Thanks also to bestbefore for sharing your experience. I am really hoping you are right on the lack of side effects. I had a slight tummy rumble by the way, nothing too bad.

Can anyone experienced with chemicals look at the ingredients on the link I posted and comment upon it? At this point, its just words to me.

[bestbefore]

Hi so i got my DS craze today. Compared to all the other noots ive been taking, i can definitely feel the difference. i took a scoop about 2 hours ago and started doing my writing/reading work about 10mts later. It kicks in about 45mts after intake. And I there is a definite focus, n tunnel vision and motivation. Being at least partly ADD i tend to do 10mts of work and then get distracted by something else n then find it hard to come back. But here definitely I was doing stuff obsessively.

To be honest, it does feel very amphetamine like. For one, my hands and feet are quite cold, which was common for me on dexamphetamine. Two, my pupils are definitely slightly dilated. Three, the focus is quite strong and not subtle like other stuff. So maybe there is something to that lawsuit. I dont know. I used to come down pretty bad on dexamphetamine, so I am not yet sure whether there is a comedown on this. I hope its gentle. I also am not sure about the long term safety of this product. While I would urge others to give it a go, I dont want to speculate on its safety or addictive possibility. All I can tell is its working for the last 1.5 hours almost.

Also I took 1600mg Piracetam along with it. i might take some ashwagandha soon just to prevent any come down which ususally affects my mood and productivity.

Thanks also to bestbefore for sharing your experience. I am really hoping you are right on the lack of side effects. I had a slight tummy rumble by the way, nothing too bad.

Can anyone experienced with chemicals look at the ingredients on the link I posted and comment upon it? At this point, its just words to me.

Thanks.

I have always taken Craze on an empty stomach and never had problems with a low dose. I tried 2 scoops in the beginning and that made me very nauseated at the point of almost throwing up. The only crash I have felt was again when I took 1.5 - 2 scoops. But the crash didn't really happen at the end of the day, but it showed in increased anxiety during the whole day. Nothing like a panic attack, just way too much stimulation.

I just remembered, one negative effect of Craze which I don't like is the strong inhibiting effect on appetite. It's not that I can't eat, it's that I really don't want to.

[knutsayang]

Thanks.

I have always taken Craze on an empty stomach and never had problems with a low dose. I tried 2 scoops in the beginning and that made me very nauseated at the point of almost throwing up. The only crash I have felt was again when I took 1.5 - 2 scoops. But the crash didn't really happen at the end of the day, but it showed in increased anxiety during the whole day. Nothing like a panic attack, just way too much stimulation.

I just remembered, one negative effect of Craze which I don't like is the strong inhibiting effect on appetite. It's not that I can't eat, it's that I really don't want to.

The lack of appetite seems to be a very amphetamine-like symptom...I am experiencing the same currently. So after the rush and obsessive focus I had for about 2.5 hours, I was feeling a bit anxious as well, mostly about the 'good feeling' going away. I can see some potential for addiction, although minor, especially if u hv an addictive personality. I did consider redosing because I have plenty of work to do but decided against it. I had some ashwagandha, tyrosine 500mg, Fish oil (2g) and ALCAR 500mg. Dont feel as bad now and still managing to focus and get work done after about 4 hours of initial administration of 1 scoop. Oh and I redosed piracetam, so that could explain the ability to focus still,although I think the DS Craze is still in the system working.

Also I noticed frequent trips to take a leak, which is something I experienced with dexamphetamine too. Not sure whats the story with this product. But I dont have anything to compare it to because I've never had any other preworkout supplement before like Jacked, White Flood or Animal Pak which ive heard gym freaks talking about.

By the way those who dont like stimulants, I dont think this is for u!

Edited by knutsayang, 12 April 2012 - 12:13 PM.

[dirdir207]

I haven't looked at the ingredients for this particular pre-workout supplement, but I generally would not recommend using one of these as a long term solution, even over just a couple of months, it simply isn't sustainable. Most of these pre-workout supplements are chalk full of caffeine and other stimulants in insane quantities that are wholly unhealthy for you during prolonged use and only lead to tolerance and addiction.

[JChief]

I haven't looked at the ingredients for this particular pre-workout supplement, but I generally would not recommend using one of these as a long term solution, even over just a couple of months, it simply isn't sustainable. Most of these pre-workout supplements are chalk full of caffeine and other stimulants in insane quantities that are wholly unhealthy for you during prolonged use and only lead to tolerance and addiction.

I would agree here. Artificial sweeteners alone are a huge turn off..

[bestbefore]

I haven't looked at the ingredients for this particular pre-workout supplement, but I generally would not recommend using one of these as a long term solution, even over just a couple of months, it simply isn't sustainable. Most of these pre-workout supplements are chalk full of caffeine and other stimulants in insane quantities that are wholly unhealthy for you during prolonged use and only lead to tolerance and addiction.

You should really research the ingredients first. Craze has very little caffeine, it's about 60 mg per serving.

[dreth7]

I personally use craze to. I guess I can see the similarities to aderall. Its one the best pre-works i've found, and I love it even more because its so low on caffeine. I'm just curious about the "amphetamine-like derivatives". Can anyone shed any light on the ingredients?

[deh707]

I currently use Craze 3-4 times a week, at one serving (1 scoop) for pre workout purposes.

It's definitely my favorite preworkout, and I've tried over 10 preworkouts in the past 2 years.


I'm also a nootropic user for school, my nootropic staples:

piracetam, sns focus xt, alcar, and sometimes pramiracetam when needed.


I've gotta say, Craze is some potent stuff, i really like it, but probably wouldn't use it more than 4 times a week, since it seems too "new" for true long term use. it's currently the top preworkout supplement in the bodybuilding world. I also hear it only has 80mg caffeine per serving, which is quite low, so that must mean the other ingredients are pretty potent.

[dreth7]

I just hate not being able to eat after craze usage and a long workout. I kinda have that amphet feeling of not being able to eat and when eating feeling queasy.

[Now]

I personally use craze to. I guess I can see the similarities to aderall. Its one the best pre-works i've found, and I love it even more because its so low on caffeine. I'm just curious about the "amphetamine-like derivatives". Can anyone shed any light on the ingredients?

I'm not an expert, but I think that the phenethylamine alkaloids are responsible for the stimulant effects.

Phenylethylamine or phenethylamine (PEA) is a natural monoamine alkaloid, trace amine, and also the name of a class of chemicals with many members well known for psychoactive drug and stimulant effects.[1] Studies[2] suggest that phenylethylamine functions as a neuromodulator or neurotransmitter in the mammalian central nervous system. It is biosynthesized from the amino acid phenylalanine by enzymatic decarboxylation. Besides mammals, phenethylamine is found in many other organisms and foods such as chocolate, especially after microbial fermentation. It is sold as a dietary supplement for purported mood and weight loss-related therapeutic benefits; however, orally ingested phenethylamine is usually inactive because of extensive first-pass metabolism by monoamine oxidase (MAO) into phenylacetic acid, preventing significant concentrations from reaching the brain.[3][4]
_{http://en.wikipedia..../Phenethylamine}

So I guess that Dendrobium extract, Citrus Reticulata extract or another ingredient has monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI) properties, but maybe I'm completely wrong.

Edited by Now, 13 April 2012 - 08:30 AM.

[JChief]

I am thinking along the same lines as you because PEA taken orally shouldn't have much of an effect. The extracts if you look into them don't really explain the effect either. I'm at a loss. Maybe they've found a certain type of phenethylamine that they are including (there are several) which allows for higher bioavailability. But I refuse to be a test subject for these "body building" products. What I've found is if you need a solid pre workout supp just take straight caffeine and be done with it. So many questionable products to come and go in that sector of the supplement industry. Much of it is junk and/or dangerous and/or ineffective. The customers well-being isn't nearly as important as marketing, fancy labels, and profits.

Edited by JChief, 13 April 2012 - 09:51 AM.

[knutsayang]

So I must update that I used it for 2 days because i had a lot of stuff to do and it worked remarkably well. Yes there is a bit of a crash at the end. I dont think it is something I want to do in the long run though because I can feel circulation is not as good and overall feel really tired.

I managed to get the following from a cached page on Bodybuilding forum, the thread was originally deleted, not sure why. Can someone with adequate scientific knowledge comment on the veracity of these claims below:

Craze is based solely on trimethylglycine's ability to

1.) Donate methyl groups to neurotransmitter synthesis. (along with obvious other processes, coq10 synthesis for instance). This well known fact about trimethylglycine is what makes it so intriguing.

2.) Lessen platelet aggression, which leads to the introductory point.

Coincidentally enough, Dendrobium, one of the ingredients in craze, has immense APA potential. (also, dendrobium is a convulsant, analgesic, an antagonist of BA, taurine, and GABA and used for sexual enhancement (See the link below for apa and other effects)
http://pubs.acs.org/...021/np50111a014

PEA is also well known for this, and you can feel it and how much better it is at it than other stimulants. Guarana is another decent APA, as is aspirin obviously (thus its use in ECA, but ephedrine itself is good enough APA).

So what's the problem? It seems like Craze is chalked full of every constituent, isomer, extract whatever of PEA they could find due to its natural ability to APA and how well it does it.

(Take note that pea and betaine work incredibly synergisticly together, and the ability for TMG to donate a CH3 is due to SAM-E production and the donated methyl group goes to the synthesis of neurotransmitters. As for the pea, or beta-pea specifically, it simply releases norep and dopamine.)

Now citramine in its studies was NOT known as simply an MAO-B inhibitor, but referred to a MAO-B BLOCKER… INHIBIT and BLOCK are NOT equal in scientific language and BLOCK is generally used as the more "effective" word.

So lets sum up what we have

1. Betaine: very good at enhancing neurotransmitter synthesis (donating methyl groups to the synthesis process to form neurotransmitters, homocysteine remethylation, etc). Also, adjuvant for DNA polymerase and DNA sequencing, (MOA unknown). but it performs fairly well in weakening GC nucleosides bonding so that they can splice in RNA sequences and then not affect the reaction negatively. So this leads to Amino sequences, obviously. Now this is a part people have left out about TMG and I think we need to look in to it and understand it.

2. PEA constituents and homologs: release norep and dopamine (two of the most beneficially/easiest synthesized after homocystein remethylation). all the different PEA constituents in here work in similar pharmocokinetics but bioavailability, half lifes, efficacy, all differ. also it helps from a price point.

3. Extracts of Dendrobium. This will be subject to debate but just recently (within months) they have AGAIN changed the standard of what is believed to make up dendrobium. I could (and did for awhile) spend a lot of time looking up every "supposed" chemical in what we will now call DR (dendrobium) but it's useless as nothing will be known on the chemicals that we would be interested in as they are unique to DR. What IS known is that the stem portion of DR (what craze uses), 60-80% of the chemical extracts available from the stem are incredibly good in vitro at APA, so good, they actually performed quite well and OUT PERFORMED some standard units of the top performing drugs available on the market for APA.

4. NMT: RX821002 out performed it as an alpha-2 receptor antagonist but there is a reason RX isn't allowed on the market and interestingly enough NMT had a higher IC50 but somehow RX still had a better affinity. Keep that in mind as honestly that's a little off. NMT performed better than hordenine and caffeine; often used natural MAO-b inhibitors. SO we have a PRETTY GOOD natural MAO-B inhibitor that is holding its own against the big scripts. People are looking at this as solely the stim effect, but it's so much more than that.

5. Caffeine: Most should know the MOA of this and assume/predispose it's synergy. However, it may be important to note its specific effects on fatty acids and those effects' similarity to TMG's effects on fatty acids

Now lets connect the dots.

• TMG and PEA have yet to be combined in effective doses and isomers in any other product (that I could find). I've already explained the synergy there.
• NMT hasn't been heavily thought of as an MAO-b inhibitor , yet, mainly a stim. It'll INCREASE stim affects as an alpha-2 receptor antagonist (note MAO-B inhibitor is not the same as alpha-2 receptor antagonist but generally (if not always) if a compound is one, it is the other as well). But it also has its own stimulant activity, also again, a significant MAO-B inhibitor. So this is good for PEA as it's metabolized by MAO in a rather quick time frame.
• BUT if we inhibit MAO-B effectively enough (and we’re coming to the conclusion that NMT does) then MAO synthesis has to occur in order for the drug reactions to be metabolized, otherwise their effects will still be in process. This is why taking say deprenyl and PEA together will yield hours of fun rather than just 30 minutes or so of PEA alone. Also note a powerful MAO-B such as deprenyl doesn’t have to be taken daily as its effect on MAO lasts multiple days due to it being an irreversible inhibitor. IIRC, somewhere along the lines of 3-5 days depending on dose and environment. So even if NMT is not a full blown IR inhibitor, it seems strong enough to have multiple hours of inhibiting effects. Also, being an A2 antagonist, norep will be readily released, even MORE neuro action. Could this be too much of a good thing?

Now as to why there should be some concern for this product…

• APA action of it seems greatly emphasized. Sure it may give great pumps and blood flow, but in result, we have our possible side effects. There is such a thing as having too much APA where our INR reaches the whole number 5 area. There are reports of just simple daily servings of garlic raising INR enough over time to indicate bleeding. The most common place for that bleeding to occur in general for reference is the brain, thus explaining the reports of dizziness, blackouts, headaches, etc. Obviously we can look at a drug like warfarin and we have to be very careful as that causes MAJOR bleeding, but there are different levels of bleeding that don't cause as much “damage”, but cause the side effects and possibly over consistent usage cause short term/long term issues. That being said, it is entirely possible that this product has the ability to raise INR to the point of worry. With NMT and b-pea (and all the other pea's) being lumped in with aspirin in writings of studies on their effect on APA, plus caffeine, not to mention the darkhorse dendrobium who's majority stem extracts showed very promising APA affinity in vitro. So who's to say it can't do what garlic can do with daily use in itself with all those different compounds? Some of which, we know very little about. We don’t know what else is even in dendrobium stems, it's extracts were patented so quickly that everything about it is vague.
• Dendrobium has been described as an analgesic multiple times. It's not directly stated anywhere, but the comparisons between the (still unknown) possible MOA's of say acetaminophen (remember, those effect the cannabinoid receptors.) Now we know the effect on the ECS of aspirin for instance is not drastic and we aren't even sure of the location of the analgesic effects specifically, but that's a possible MOA of that class of drug. is it possible in synergy or one of these compounds individually effects the ECS? We wouldn’t know as we cant even figure out if aspirin does or not and we have been studying it for how long? No one seems to have drawn this conclusion, but it's VERY possible considering the similarities between the compounds overall actions and the very little known about almost all the ingredients in this product. Maybe it's a derivative of the class of analine analgesics? Maybe it just has a similar MOA or overall effect? This is the most effective away to explain the pain killing effect and it ties together with all the other conclusions.
  
  Another conclusion to piggy back off that and maybe add some substance to it, THC increases the effect of PEA 4 fold. Keep that in mind and in connection.
• Now we look at the INCREDIBLE output of norep, dopamine, seratonin (to be specific and standard to what the studies point out). PEA specifically successfully releases norep and dopamine and will continue to do so until MOA is reestablished. PEA acts also very similar to amphetamines which also release NT's such as dopamine. Now too much of a good things is in fact, too much. Here comes the scary part.
  
  Schizophrenia has yet to be completely understood, but a common treatment is dopamine agonists. It’s thought that dopamine agonists misfire and causes PART of the schizo issues (PEA also can be a hallucinogen. So antipsychotics have been noted to agonize the receptors and block them. Now as said earlier, PEA and amphetamines act on NT"s very similarly and when used they cause a sensitivity to dopamine. It’s referred to as supersensitivity to dopamine and a marked rise in the number of dopamine D2 receptors in the high-affinity state for dopamine. High affinity receptors coupled with incredible output of NT"s by the synergy of craze, COULD lead to dopamine misfiring, even chronically or short term after use is extinguished. If you tie all this together, it's a possibility that it could do SOMETHING due to this products aimed nature. The fact that vaughn described it as cocaine which is obviously similar to lidocaine, and lidocaine was mentioned in studies of NMT and the connections coke has with NT's like amphetamines, makes the conclusion make sense. Now, this isn’t saying normal use of pea and APA's will make you go schizo, this also isn’t saying abusing Craze will, but looking at how this product is formulated, how well it works syngeristically, how studies compare the different compounds to script drugs that have been extensively studied, we must at least take caution
• Its alpha2 agonist abilities (a2 receptor binds to NT's and adrenaline, agonize the receptor and it can’t bind, therefore releasing adrenaline and its effects) obviously cause vasodilation, but if craze as a whole has any significant affect at all on b2 receptors (which was noted in some possible effects of the DR constituents if discerned correctly, and also possibly an effect of NMT) then that in turn would cause coronary vasoconstriction which would still increase the output of the heart and the energy it must expend to keep up with all the other effects of craze and pump enough blood. Not sure what effect this may have, but may raise heart rate to a significant degree, which also has been reported.
  
  
  As you know, NT misfirings will affect mental productivity at different levels. We’ve explained the issue of nausea and cramping by acute bleeding, stimulants in general will obviously have their individual normal expected side effects so those are accounted for.
• Some users have reported blurred vision or simply impaired vision. MAO Inhibitors may cause this effect (as we see above, lots of mao inhibition with Craze) and thus can lead to orthostatic hypotension.

So in conclusion, we’ve accounted for the "pain killer" claim. We’ve accounted for the few hours of feeling amazing and then the crash (typical of the actions we’ve described), and we’ve covered the withdrawal possibilities and we’ve accounted for the vision problems. Now everything above isn’t being stated as fact, but none of this was in their write up or thus far explanations of why they chose these compounds. This product is extremely effective because it's extremely synergistic. The problem is it may be TOO effective, causing TOO many reactions in sync with TOO many risks.

Discuss and everyone feel free to chime in as well with experiences, side effects etc.

also note, this is not DS bashing, this is just expressing concerns about the product.