478 replies to this topic

[Endymion]

My experience certainly mirrors the favourable aspects reported in this thread. It's good stuff for doing lab work or writing something you've been putting off.
I do get a fair bit of anxiety later in the day and my appetite is crushed, but there is no crash and I feel fine the next day.
Pretty concerned about potential harms to neuronal health, however.

The ingredients responsible for the effects of Craze might be picrotoxins (principally dendrobine), which is present in Dendrobium sp. of which Craze contains an extract.

Picrotoxin is a GABA_A antagonist, which would account for its stimulating properties at low doses. In higher doses it is a convulsant.
This seems to work similarly to strychnine (also once used as a stimulating supplement at low doses), but I think strychnine involves glycine receptors.
Anyway, that's just a thought - I don't know if this stuff is necessarily neurotoxic at the doses that might be in craze, or for that matter whether it is an active ingredient in Craze at all.

I'm gonna finish the Craze I've got and then I'll wait and see.

Edited by Endymion, 01 August 2012 - 12:48 PM.

[medievil]

Gabaa antagonism definatly explains the shakeyness and anxiety for me, ill see how it would be with a low dose benzo.

It also gave me terrible brainzaps in combo with phenibut (which is convulsant like activity, GHB has given me seizures before, the brainzaps with craze paralelled those of G when i took doses that could cause a seizure). Benzo's reverse this, gabaa antagonism may explain it.

Edited by medievil, 01 August 2012 - 05:20 PM.

[Endymion]

Yes, I believe picrotoxin is used to reverse and treat overdoses of barbiturates and benzos, so it would be interesting to see if a benzo negated the effect of Craze, although I guess it might do that indirectly too.

I read that the producers adamantly recommend to avoid taking beta-alanine with it because it reduces performance.
Maybe because the active ingredients work in opposition to beta-alanine:

Dendrobine, an antagonist of beta-alanine, taurine and of presynaptic inhibition in the frog spinal cord.


The phenethylamines may be a red-herring in the formula of Craze.

I'm still unsure whether picrotoxanes, despite their discomforting name, are actually harmful. I can't find anything in the literature. Is excitotoxicity a problem with GABA_A antagonism?

[medievil]

As i suspected etizolam does indeed negate most negatives, im retrialling craze ill see how it goes this time.

It does give me a weird feeling in my leg/arms and some muscle weakness, anyone had something like this before with craze?

[medievil]

I took some nac and holy basil wich resolved that issue wich is nice.

[medievil]

Looks like i need about 2 scoops every 3 hours for good effects, ive allways had a higher tolerance to stims tough. At this level it doesnt cause any excessive euphoria, rather a mood boost, enhanced motivation and focus and my social anxiety and anhedonia pretty much abolished.

[medievil]

I wonder what modulates the euphoria of craze so much, the first time i tried it it really made me high, acting weird yet with my current stack its just a moodboost and it puts me in a very "therapeutic mood".

[medievil]

Hmm at first impression seems that both aniracetam and rhodiola smooth it out enough so i dont need any added benzo's, ill see how it goes.

[Cephalon]

Hi Medi
I too notice tollerance from just one scoop three times a week...
Started dosing 1.5scoops but still do not get the initial effects.
Though what I get from Craze is still amazing.

Edited by Cephalon, 04 August 2012 - 04:46 PM.

[GettingThere]

I'm on the verge of breaking and just ordering a tub already, the more I think it over the more the cost/benefits seem to favor Craze over any other stimulant that acts or appears to act on dopamine. I should have some Craze shortly and I'll be taking careful note of my cardiovasular biomarkers (heart rate & blood pressure) both before and while taking Craze along with most of the stack discussed here: http://www.longecity...ing-the-puzzle/

[RS3RS]

If one takes MAO-B selective doses of Selegiline, is caution advised when dosing Craze -- or is it not much of a concern since the ingredients suppress MAO-B anyway? I'm unsure of the difference between inhibiting MAO (as Selegiline does) and blocking MAO (as Craze already does).

[RS3RS]

Also, does anyone who's tried it have any advice on using it as an alternative to ADHD meds?

[Junk Master]

Two scoops every three hours! I have a high tolerance to stimulants as well, and found after an initial two scoop dose another scoop every three hours was as much as my body could take without getting some chest tightness and feeling irritable.

[RS3RS]

My experience certainly mirrors the favourable aspects reported in this thread. It's good stuff for doing lab work or writing something you've been putting off.
I do get a fair bit of anxiety later in the day and my appetite is crushed, but there is no crash and I feel fine the next day.
Pretty concerned about potential harms to neuronal health, however.

The ingredients responsible for the effects of Craze might be picrotoxins (principally dendrobine), which is present in Dendrobium sp. of which Craze contains an extract.

Picrotoxin is a GABA_A antagonist, which would account for its stimulating properties at low doses. In higher doses it is a convulsant.
This seems to work similarly to strychnine (also once used as a stimulating supplement at low doses), but I think strychnine involves glycine receptors.
Anyway, that's just a thought - I don't know if this stuff is necessarily neurotoxic at the doses that might be in craze, or for that matter whether it is an active ingredient in Craze at all.

I'm gonna finish the Craze I've got and then I'll wait and see.

If this might antagonize GABA(a) receptors, would this possibly be an ideal substance for upregulating those receptors?

[Endymion]

Also, does anyone who's tried it have any advice on using it as an alternative to ADHD meds?

I've read several reports of people who take it instead of adderall, at least on workout days, and they say their ADHD symptoms respond even better to Craze.
It certainly gives me motivation to get things done and the stimulation gives me the impetus to get me up and at it. I don't get much euphoria, but instead a little uneasiness that can hurt my ability to focus at the level of enjoyment of a task, but not at the level of actual performance. That probably doesn't make much sense - it's difficult to describe.

[zeropoint]

Does anyone remember the pre-workout/slimming product known as 'Slim Xtreme', which was popular back in 2009/2010, but has now been banned?

Well I haven't tried the 'Craze' for comparison, but I can say that Slim Xtreme was incredibly effective at enhancing energy, mood and motivation. Each pill lasted for at least 12 hours, solidly. Apparently Slim Xtreme contained Sibutramine (a cardiotoxic SNRI), along with methamphetamine like compounds, which is why it was banned. I can certainly believe these claims, judging from my experiences with it.

My point is that anyone taking this Craze should be very cautious when making assumptions about the safety of it's ingredients. Supplement companies (especially in the body-building industry) can and will put semi-illicit substances in their products, without regard for consumer safety; just to make a profit.

Sorry but no way sibutramine was in "Slim-X", sibutramine is/was garbage compared to Craze or the old Slim-X. Slim-X was more like a 1-(4 Methylphenyl)-2-pyrrolidin-1-yl-pentan-1-one(Pyrovalerone) analogue(think MDPV). Sibutramine is dangerous in combination with ANY serotinergics(?)----causes too much serotonin release(serotonin syndrome),thus with wrong combination a no-no. Otherwise safe as an weight-loss aid sans any useful stimulation.

Edited by zeropoint, 10 August 2012 - 08:36 PM.

[zeropoint]

Don't forget about our beloved nicotine---very toxic,probably neurotoxic yet indespensible.

[Endymion]

Don't forget about our beloved nicotine---very toxic,probably neurotoxic yet indespensible.

Nicotine is not neurotoxic as far as I'm aware - I've not read anything to suggest that apart from some evidence of oxidative stress when administered in doses 10-100x what would be used for cognitive enhancement. Cardiovascular effects seem pretty benign too so I think nicotine is safe. Hell, at least we know what nicotine IS.

And I'm still taking Craze. My doubts haven't gotten in the way just yet.

[knutsayang]

Also, does anyone who's tried it have any advice on using it as an alternative to ADHD meds?

I wouldnt think of using it as a permanent alternative because we do not know the long-term effects. Maybe as an occasional pick-me up aid once or twice a week. I would be wary of more.

Two scoops every three hours! I have a high tolerance to stimulants as well, and found after an initial two scoop dose another scoop every three hours was as much as my body could take without getting some chest tightness and feeling irritable.

Two scoops every 3 hours! How many scoops do you have in a 24 hour period?

I got myself another tub and giving it a go, but this time with more careful dosing. Im trying not to go over the 2 scoop limit.

[medievil]

I have to say i dont really like the stuff,

It doesnt really feel strong enough therapeutically wise while the doses i seem to need cause too much anxiety or euphoria, also its too expensive in the doses i needed.
Ill elaborate more later, im trying low doses of 4FA at the moment wich seems to be alot better for me personally.

Craze also was too addictive for me kept wanting to redose, did try lower doses like a scoop every 6 hours but that wasnt worth the bother for my issues.

Edited by medievil, 11 August 2012 - 06:03 PM.

[golden1]

im trying low doses of 4FA at the moment wich seems to be alot better for me personally.

4-fa oooo I called it. 4fa is a winner :P

[medievil]

Its really mild tough, dont really see it being very recreational but then again i respond blunted to most things lately.

[Endymion]

Don't want to get too far off topic, but is the toxicity of 4-FA only at higher dose?
I was thinking about using very low dose mescaline (peruvian torch cactus) for mood and energy. Any thoughts on this?
Maybe the PEAs in cacti have an effect similar to Craze.

i respond blunted to most things lately.

Maybe you should rest your chemistry for awhile, medievil.

[medievil]

Don't want to get too far off topic, but is the toxicity of 4-FA only at higher dose?
I was thinking about using very low dose mescaline (peruvian torch cactus) for mood and energy. Any thoughts on this?
Maybe the PEAs in cacti have an effect similar to Craze.

i respond blunted to most things lately.

Maybe you should rest your chemistry for awhile, medievil.

Its not that but people with shizophrenia respond blunted to amphetamine after it has been stabilised wich is probably it as im mostly off stims due to money issues (i may retry desoxypipradol as that would be affordable) which rules out of tolerance.

It may also be sensitization as i got stronger effects of 4FA after several doses with the first day it barely doing much, i had that with several differened stims in the past. Ill retry it when ive got more money but first wonna try desoxy.

Edited by medievil, 14 August 2012 - 11:28 AM.

[Cephalon]

Just wanted to let you guys know that I'm still alive and feeling great health wise after roughly a month+ of regular use (3x/week) of CRAZE. Unfortunately can't agree with others on the RC's discussed in this thread. Compared to Craze I got a lot more side effects from 3fa, 4fa, mpa and EPH.
Craze can be a little addictive though. As far as tollerance goes I'm still fine with 1.5 scoops since first rising dose after approx. 2 weeks.
Definately recommended!

[Endymion]

Just wanted to let you guys know that I'm still alive and feeling great health wise after roughly a month+ of regular use (3x/week) of CRAZE.

Thanks for the update. Still a very powerful addition to my stimulant toolbox as well (1 scoop 2x/week) with no noticeable tolerance thus far.

[RS3RS]

Just ordered some to try out. Since tolerance seems to develop rapidly in many (not all) people, I wonder if this would be a decent candidate to combine with an NMDA antagonist. Memantine, or even chronic magnesium supplementation, seems to greatly help prevent (and even reverse) tolerance to amphetamines. This likely works on the same receptors / pathways, or so I assume. As has been discussed, it contains four different phenethylamine substances, and amphetamine is also a phenethylamine (alpha-methylphenethylamine to be specific). Makes sense, right?

Of course, that wouldn't make it any less neurotoxic (unless you can reduce the dosage as a result), but might be worth experimenting if anyone has some NMDA antagonists already laying around and has begun to experience tolerance.

Edited by RS3RS, 26 August 2012 - 03:22 PM.

[fql]

Just ordered some to try out. Since tolerance seems to develop rapidly in many (not all) people

General rule of thumb is to cycle. Three weeks on, two weeks off.

[CIMN]

anyone ever try to replicate craze (its ingredients) without the caffeine? I'm trying to get off caffeine and i want to checkout craze but it containing caffeine is at odds with my caffeine off goals.. is there a way to extract-takeout the caffeine in craze?

[RS3RS]

Just ordered some to try out. Since tolerance seems to develop rapidly in many (not all) people

General rule of thumb is to cycle. Three weeks on, two weeks off.

Probably a good idea regardless. I'm just wondering if we can help chemically prevent receptor down-regulation in addition to cycling.