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Preworkout Stimulant as Nootropic? Damn!

preworkout stimulant nootropic contraindications

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#361 Erebus

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:35 PM

Yeah that picture is clearly made for advertisement purposes as there are no references. In traditional chinese medicine some species of Dendrobium are used for treating certain conditions but not as stimulant if I'm correct. I think Gaspari had some studies made of their Detonate showing minimal adverse effects though. Will be interesting to see how this turns out.

There is evidence of bioactive ingredients in Dendrobium species:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2121637/


Yeah, you're correct: That review does not support any of the marketing for Dendrobium products -- but certain species may be mild adaptogens and may have valid ethnopharmacological uses.
Thanks very much for the link! :-D

#362 zeropoint

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:11 PM

Would be interested in trying PURE dendrobium extract ,as the company KCbotanicals.com has, without all the bells and whistles additives that are in CRAZE. Would be a more clean experiment to see.......

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#363 zeropoint

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:15 PM

sorry I mean't KTbotanicals

#364 stephenk

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:38 PM

Any more updates on this product? Good or bad?

#365 KoolK3n

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:41 PM

Any more updates on this product? Good or bad?


It's not a matter of good or bad. Does it do its job as a preworkout? Yes. Is it worth the price? No.
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#366 Dissolvedissolve

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:49 PM

Some new info for those interested in this product and its potential secret ingredient(s) there is some evidence that DS Craze has a PEA derivative called N-ethyl-α-ethylphenethylamine in it: http://www.reddit.co...taining_hidden/

#367 stephenk

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:13 PM

I meant more like... Is this safe or dangerous

#368 Raptor87

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:42 AM

Some new info for those interested in this product and its potential secret ingredient(s) there is some evidence that DS Craze has a PEA derivative called N-ethyl-α-ethylphenethylamine in it: http://www.reddit.co...taining_hidden/


This is exactly what I stated early in this thread.

http://www.wfad.se/l...gated-in-sweden

#369 nito

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 06:54 AM

Guys do you tend to pee alot on craze? I tend to need more frequent pee breaks. Ok i do make sure i get adequate amount of water while on it, but it's like as soon as i get a glass of water, it's toilet break the next 5 mins. :wacko:

#370 owtsgmi

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:59 AM

How much do you take?

Recent research shows that this is not true and that caffeine has a diuretic effect only if you consume large amounts of it — more than 500 to 600 milligrams (the equivalent of 5 to 7 cups of coffee) a day.

http://www.mayoclini...-drinks/AN01661

#371 hullcrush

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:03 PM

I have a CYP2D6 polymorphism wherein I get terrible side effects from the most benign drugs, particularly psychoactives.

Over 150+ xenobiotics, this is the first one that met this criteria:
  • Did not make me feel worse
  • Improved cognitive skills acutely
In my case, Adderall induces strong sympathomimetic symptoms and pleasure-seeking behavior and then rapid tolerance.
Craze DS offers focus and light mood improvement, lower comedown and then rapid tolerance.

Temporary solution. It's not what I've heard people say amphetamine is like (it's a little better), but more in line with anecdotals of successful intervention with MAOI.

#372 hullcrush

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 08:27 PM

A lot of good active ingredient, and a whole lot of completely rate-limiting bullshit like Vitamin C. That's not terribly ergogenic.

#373 medievil

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 01:43 AM

Anyone got craze back working after it suddenly stopped one time?

#374 dirdir207

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 07:28 PM

Anyone got craze back working after it suddenly stopped one time?



When I first started taking ds craze, I did not receive good effects at all, aside from the first time I took it, which it made me pretty hypomanic, uber confident and talkative as hell. It would always make me obscenely anxious, paranoid and depressed, and tolerance did build rapidly. However since then, I have revisited it with great success. Ever since I started taking citalopram I haven't any anxiousness, paranoia or depression when taking it, though I am somewhere along the schizotypal scale much like yourself, the dopamine surge was just way too much before. Citalopram evened that out wonderfully for me, however tolerance still set in rapidly.

However I have very effectively defeated tolerance to craze and always receive the same benefits now, when coadministering it with piracetam and MSG, and now sarcosine. Piracetam by itself does not do much in reversing the tolerance, 90 percent of the effect I receive is from the MSG or sarcosine paradoxically One would expect the opposite in regards to tolerance, what with both substances agonizing the NMDA receptors in oppose to antagonizing them. It could be that a lot of the euphoric effects from substances such as adderall and cocaine are due in large part to glutamate, and with already having a hypoactive glutamergic system, tolerance to those effects is extremely rapid. Simply replenishing the supply, and insuring NMDA activation through piracetam, I always receive a very pleasant mood boost and reduction of negative symptoms with craze.

I have also found that I gain zero tolerance to phenibut using the same strategy, easily able to take four grams or more every day with no reduction in effects, and also no withdrawal whatsoever when I run out. Though I'm sure citalopram also plays a large role in that, causing an immediate spike in gaba levels, as well as upregulating the GABA b receptors, somewhat offsetting the down-regulatory effects of phenibut.

Another thing I have found, which is quite unfortunate, is that I receive almost no effect from any supplement, ds craze, phenibut, piracetam, sarcosine, MSG, choline, you name it, without co administration with caffeine. This remains true even if I have obstained from caffeine for good long time, and have gone through withdrawals. DS craze contains 80 mg of caffeine per serving, however I feel absolutely nothing from it unless I take an additional 200 mg of caffeine, same goes with anything else. Iv'e gone months without caffeine, with no effects from any noots, and then taken a 200 mg caffeine pill, and boom, night and day.
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#375 Introspecta

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 12:51 AM

Anyone try taking Craze while on Deprenyl? I could imagine it being pretty intense

#376 KoolK3n

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 02:05 AM

Anyone try taking Craze while on Deprenyl? I could imagine it being pretty intense


There are multiple threads about PEA + Deprenyl. That should answer your question.

#377 Introspecta

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 02:45 AM

This is a different derivitive of PEA though so I assume would result in different effects.

#378 medievil

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 03:00 AM

Anyone try taking Craze while on Deprenyl? I could imagine it being pretty intense


There are multiple threads about PEA + Deprenyl. That should answer your question.

pea is baby aspirin, doesnt compare to craze at all.

I want to try craze added to mdpv, desoxypipradol, ropinirole and selegiline.

#379 Galantamine

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:56 PM

Anyone got craze back working after it suddenly stopped one time?


The formula has changed multiple times, so it would be hard to answer your question.

The "OG Craze" contained N, alpha-diethylphenylethylamine in addition to N-benzyl-2-phenylethylamine. The former is what was responsible for the stimulant/euphoric effects and the latter was responsible the throat-numbing effect.

The combination was probably designed to elicit an overall cocaine-like effect.

N-benzyl-2-phenylethylamine was dropped from the formula early on, and they probably lowered the dose of N, alpha-diethylphenylethylamine of subsequent batches in order to lessen suspicion.

You can still find the OG Craze (grape) if you look for a label with TMG listed as the first ingredient in the proprietary blend.

#380 KoolK3n

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:09 PM

Anyone got craze back working after it suddenly stopped one time?


The formula has changed multiple times, so it would be hard to answer your question.

The "OG Craze" contained N, alpha-diethylphenylethylamine in addition to N-benzyl-2-phenylethylamine. The former is what was responsible for the stimulant/euphoric effects and the latter was responsible the throat-numbing effect.

The combination was probably designed to elicit an overall cocaine-like effect.

N-benzyl-2-phenylethylamine was dropped from the formula early on, and they probably lowered the dose of N, alpha-diethylphenylethylamine of subsequent batches in order to lessen suspicion.

You can still find the OG Craze (grape) if you look for a label with TMG listed as the first ingredient in the proprietary blend.


Spot on! Where can I find the TMG listed original Craze?

#381 Kolin

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:47 AM

Hi, all.

FYI: You probably know this already, but accidentally clicking a link in a Longecity sidebar and hitting the "Back" button will completely erase the message you were composing, so word to the wise.

Also, there'll be a TL;DR at the bottom for all of the impatient or busy, and a form of summation with the bolding throughout. So it isn't just to be pompous or aggravate people. ;)

*~*~*

I last posted about six months ago, but I stopped in today to give a huge "thank you" to Cephalon for suggesting anyone interested in Craze's nootropic properties check out Gaspari Detonate. I'm here to tell anyone searching for something to help with focus and/or motivation that this stuff decidedly works, at least for me, at least for now.

Where I left off in November, if I remember correctly, was having experienced the amazing sense of normality and can-do-it-ness for the first time in my life, courtesy of DS Craze, only to have it only work that one time and never again. I tried experimenting with a number of variables (dose size, dose timing, full and empty stomach, etc.), but nothing helped. Furthermore, since I'd gone with Craze entirely for its purported nootropic capabilities, rather than to aid my non-existent fitness regime, much of its ingredient panel was useless to me at best: the bloat-inducing creatine, for example. So I gave it to an acquaintance for use in his fitness regime and moved on.

My next stop was Focus XT. I was anxious to avoid another tub of wasted money, so I only went with Focus after copious research and hearing marvelous things about it. It seemed to have what I was looking for in its ingredient panel, which stood to reason, since, unlike Craze, it was actually geared towards my intended purpose: clarity and focus. However, it too proved to be a disappointing case of "Whoo-hoo!" on the first day and "Meh" by the third.

I wasn't sure what to do at that point, but I kept on my quest. Bulk piracetam by itself gave me headaches and depressed me, even with choline, B-12 made me angry, and brain staples like alpha lipoic acid and acetyl l-carnitine seemed to have no effect at all.

Then one day -- again, I forget how -- I stumbled across Cephalon's suggestion to try Gaspari Detonate. So I did.

It's marketed as a thermogenic, and that's its primary purpose, but it seems to do the focus trick so far. I seem to think more clearly on it, and I just feel smarter. I started with the recommended one pill a day, then tried two at once yesterday. The result of two at once was 15 minutes of what may have been euphoria; just this overall sense of having all these great ideas and the confidence to execute them (nothing crazy like conquering the world; simple ideas like writing postcards I'd procrastinated on for ages...while I did my laundry). It was actually during this slight mania that it occurred to me that I needed to come back in here and add my hopefully helpful two cents. My mental composition of the intended post included words like "garrulous" and "synergistic", but as I moved through my day, the effect wore off and left me feeling exhausted and staring at my carpet.

Today, I opted to split the Detonate doses (one at 9, one at noon, each on an empty stomach), and so far, I've had better results. But thirty-odd minutes ago, I may have found the mother lode: piracetam. (Another huge "thank-you" to Cephalon, because I believe that was his suggestion as well.)

After the bad experience last time, I was hesitant to try it again, but I'm incredibly glad I did. I think I'm currently experiencing on a very low level what Adderall must feel like: I just feel smarter. It's a small case in point, but I was able to type "Cephalon" without double-checking the spelling or copy-pasting it, and normally, I would have had to do one or both.

So I'm definitely going to keep experimenting with piracetam as combined with Detonate, and hopefully the effects will only improve.


A few small, but important caveats:

First, I was recently prescribed Celexa (citalolam) for anxiety, and I've been taking 10 mg every night for about three weeks now. I hear it takes up to six weeks to build up in the system. I'm honestly less than impressed with the results of Celexa as a standalone treatment, but it's incredibly synergistic (ha; I got to use the word after all!) with focus enhancers like Detonate, as it cuts any resultant anxiety way down from where it might otherwise have been.

Second, Detonate does what it promises, and it does it every well. One of the things it promises is appetite suppression, and it definitely follows through. So if you're on some kind of bulk, bear that in mind, but no complaints from where I'm sitting.

Lastly, the recommendation is to take a month-long break from using Detonate after four weeks of using it consistently. I'm not sure I intend to comply, but thought I'd throw that out there.

A huge post like this feels incredibly narcissistic, and having read several garrulous posts by Adderall users (there goes the other ten-dollar word), I definitely see the similarities between theirs and my own. But thinking of everything I've gone through looking for relief makes me want to do whatever I can to help people still searching for answers.

Thanks for reading, and thanks again, Cephalon!

*~*~*

TL;DR -- After trying both Craze and Focus XT, Gaspari Detonate does everything I'd hoped for in a nootropic: it consistently provides energy and focus. The downside is that Detonate also ratchets up anxiety, mainly in the sense of wanting to be productive and for things to go right the first time, and being irritated with situations and people that hold you back from glory. Also, you won't feel like eating; not a deal-breaker for me. My next step is experimenting with adding piracetam for even better results; a half-hour ago was my first attempt, and so far, it's been golden. :)

*~*~*

Edit: I should add that it isn't so much I feel more intelligent as it is that my brain seems to be working the way it ought to have all along. Or in other words, I finally feel able to access my brain's full capacity, or at least a great deal more of it than before. Time will tell whether this continues, but I feel the stirrings of hope.

Edited by Kolin, 15 May 2013 - 01:14 AM.


#382 Lolofatty

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 04:41 PM

Today, I opted to split the Detonate doses (one at 9, one at noon, each on an empty stomach), and so far, I've had better results. But thirty-odd minutes ago, I may have found the mother lode: piracetam. (Another huge "thank-you" to Cephalon, because I believe that was his suggestion as well.)

After the bad experience last time, I was hesitant to try it again, but I'm incredibly glad I did. I think I'm currently experiencing on a very low level what Adderall must feel like: I just feel smarter. It's a small case in point, but I was able to type "Cephalon" without double-checking the spelling or copy-pasting it, and normally, I would have had to do one or both.

So I'm definitely going to keep experimenting with piracetam as combined with Detonate, and hopefully the effects will only improve.


what is your piracetam dosage with Detonate?

#383 Kolin

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:12 PM

I don't have a scale, so I just took a flat teaspoon that first day (about 5 grams, I believe). What resulted was really a high, and I've never been able to replicate the effects of that day (a high wasn't my goal, but the accompanying clarity was). I experimented with different dose sizes and timings over the next few days (from about 1.5 grams all the way up to 7-ish grams), but it always seemed to result in a "down" sort of feeling, with or without choline, often putting me right to sleep. Since the goal all along has been something to optimize the effects of Detonate while eliminating the accompanying anxiety, my next step is going to be experimenting with adding l-theanine and fish oil.


I can't ignore the potentially negative effects of the prescribed Celexa, either. I explained to the nurse practitioner how tired it's been making me, and they say they're going to switch me to Lexapro. We'll see how that goes.


Meanwhile, I'm going to try taking the Detonate with a big glass of green tea, while I wait for the l-theanine to arrive. Green tea on its own seemed to result in some calmness today (I took the day off from Detonate), so maybe the two combined will give me what I'm looking for, or at least indicate I'm heading in the right direction.

#384 Galaxyshock

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 08:13 PM

There must be something to "dendrobium" since other stimulants based on it tend to work pretty well. Even if Craze was spiced up with something.
I'm using Swedish Supplements "F#cked Up" with good effects. It contains:
Näringsvärde per portion (10g) Niacin (nikotinamid) 20 mg 125% av RDI* Vitamin B6 (pyridoxin) 20 mg 1430% av RDI* Beta-alanin 3000 mg Trikreatin malat 2000 mg Kreatinnitrat 1000 mg Dendrostan (Dendrobium extrakt) 350 mg Koffein 300 mg DMAE (Dimetylaminoetanol) 300 mg Rosenrot (Rhodiola rosea extrakt, 6% rosaviner) 200 mg Beta-Fenyl-etylamin 100 mg Mandarinextrakt (Citrus retikulata) 100 mg Piperin (svartpepparextrakt, Piper nigrum L) 2 mg *Rekommenderat dagligt intag

I think the Rhodiola is pretty nice synergestic. I also take ginseng and/or ashwagandha to stabilize the stimulation

#385 Galantamine

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 03:29 PM

There must be something to "dendrobium" since other stimulants based on it tend to work pretty well. Even if Craze was spiced up with something.

.

Both Gaspari Detonate and DS Craze are spiked and do not contain dendrobium.

#386 Galaxyshock

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Posted 29 May 2013 - 06:05 PM

I agree that "Dendrobium" is probably the new "Germanium" (=DMAA), basicly a cover to use some questionable stimulant in the products. But since many manufacturers have started putting it in their supplements I can't think it's any scheduled "hard drug", but people reported exceptionally strong effects from "early" Craze compared to these later batches or Detonate. So there must have been something else to it? Is some kind of conclusion been made about the tests? Couple weeks ago Driven Sports announced that safety studies would be published soon.

#387 highchief

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 07:23 PM

I got a bottle of Detonate a few days ago in hopes of being able to manage my once-a-week Dexedrine holidays, which are quite difficult to manage.
I've taken the CILTEP stack in the morning this week as well and used Denonate on two of the days. I'm not impressed; 1 cap didn't do much, neither did 2 caps. I still have Craze left which works fairly OK as a preworkout supplement. I originally got Craze for the same purpose as Detonate. I'll try a day without the CILTEP stack and see how it goes. If nothing noteworthy happens then I guess Detonate will replace Craze as my preworkout supp, but not as a Dexedrine alternative.

#388 Kolin

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 11:14 PM

Re: whatever's in Detonate, maybe I should feel differently, but I honestly don't care what's in it, as long as it keeps working and as long as the FDA doesn't freak out and pull it. Since one of their latest shenanigans has been to pull piracetam, it would seem their standard MO is to pull whatever works.


Taking 150 milligrams of Suntheanine with the Detonate seems to be working for me so far: it nixes the anxiety without putting me to sleep.

#389 Galantamine

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 12:24 AM

whatever's in Detonate, maybe I should feel differently, but I honestly don't care what's in it, as long as it keeps working and as long as the FDA doesn't freak out and pull it.


The compound that is in Detonate and Craze is a designer drug and only 1 ketone away from a popular bath salt. The DEA will be more interested in this compound then the FDA. With that said, the FDA and other authorities (WADA) are already aware of its existence. Stock up while you still can.

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#390 Kolin

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 12:31 AM

Thanks for the heads-up; will definitely stock up while I can.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: preworkout, stimulant, nootropic, contraindications

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