478 replies to this topic

[Cephalon]

Hi Tintinet, I have been taking 1 scoop in my first try and about 1 1/2 a couple hours later.
Today I used one scoop at 2pm and still have the effects now at 6:30 pm. (German time)
But I'm a strong responder to everything - so you'd need to take this into account.
I can definately differ that from placebo, since I have some experiance in reference material

Hey Frank MH, I heard that isn't the new taste out already? Hope they won't change the formular if they already making a new mix ...
I would do so, getting cold feet ...

[Cephalon]

Ok so in an attempt to point down the real actives (which I belive to be the Dimethyl and Diethyl PEA) I closed out the ingredients most of us know (just refering to those with known more or less significant influence on brain function):


Creatine Monohydrate
A placebo-controlled double-blind experiment found that a group of subjects composed of vegetarians and vegans who took 5 grams of creatine per day for six weeks showed a significant improvement on two separate tests of fluid intelligence, Raven's Progressive Matrices, and the backward digit span test from the WAIS. The treatment group was able to repeat longer sequences of numbers from memory and had higher overall IQ scores than the control group. The researchers concluded that "supplementation with creatine significantly increased intelligence compared with placebo."^[31] A subsequent study found that creatine supplements improved cognitive ability in the elderly.^[32] A study on young adults (0.03 g/kg/day for six weeks, e.g., 2 g/day for a 70-kilogram (150 lb) individual) failed to find any improvements.

Trimethylglycine (Betaine)
TMG is an organic osmolyte that occurs in high concentrations (10s of millimolar) in many marine invertebrates, such as crustaceans and molluscs. It serves as a potent appetitive attractant to generalist carnivores such as the predatory sea-slug Pleurobranchaea californica.^[4]
TMG is an important cofactor in methylation, a process that occurs in every cell of mammals to synthesize and donatemethyl groups (CH₃) for other processes in the body. These processes include the synthesis of neurotransmitters such as dopamine, serotonin. Methylation is also required for the biosynthesis of melatonin and the electron transport chainconstituent coenzyme Q10.
The major step in the methylation cycle is the remethylation of homocysteine, which can occur via either of two pathways. The major pathway involves the enzyme methionine synthase, which requires vitamin B₁₂ as a cofactor, and also depends indirectly on folate and various other B vitamins. The minor pathway involves betaine-homocysteine methyltransferase and requires TMG as a cofactor. Betaine is thus involved in the synthesis of many biologically important molecules, and may be even more important in situations where the major pathway for the regeneration of methionine from homocysteine has been compromised by genetic polymorphisms

L-Citrulline
In recent studies, citrulline has been found to relax blood vessels. (not necessarily relevant for cognition - but may lower bp caused by the PEAs)

N-Methyltyramine
NMT is a pressor, with a potency of 1/140 x epinephrine.^[3] On the basis of experiments using dogs, Hjort described NMT as a "very good pressor agent": a blood pressure rise of >130 mm and ~ 5 minutes duration was produced by the injection of 1-2.5 μM of solutions of the HCl salt into dogs weighing ~ 10 kg.^[4]
Subcutaneous administration of 10 mg/kg of the HCl salt of NMT to mice enhanced the release of norepinephrine from the heart by 36% over control, measured after 2 hrs.^[5]
It is known to be a stimulator of pancreatic secretions in rats.^[6]
NMT has been shown to be an agonist of the TAAR1, similarly to its parent compound tyramine.^[7]


TAAR1
B-PEA concentration in the brain is associated with major depressive disorder and schizophrenia. It is hypothesized that insufficient B-PEA levels result in TAAR1 inactivation and overzealous monoamine uptake by transporters, possibly resulting in depression (see "Discussion" in ^[2][9]). Some anti-depressants function by inhibiting MAO, which increases the concentration of trace amines, which is speculated to increase TAAR1 activation in presynaptic cells (see "Discussion" in^[2][4]). Decreased B-PEA metabolism has been linked to schizophrenia, a logical finding considering excess B-PEA would result in over-activation of TAAR1 and prevention of monoamine transporter function. Interestingly, mutations in region q23.1 of human chromosome 6—the same chromosome that codes for TAAR1—have been linked to schizophrenia.^[4]
TAAR1 activation has also been connected to activation of lymphocyte immuno-characteristics via a PKA and PKC phosphorylation.^[5] In the future, problems with lymphocyte function may be reconciled by TAAR1 manipulation.


Caffeine

PEA

This one is believed not to have any oral activity as long it is taken without an MAOI. I will do more research into MAOI, but won't the other PEAs that do cross the BBB and survive MAO long enough have MAOI properties, being a substrate of MAO themselfes?

Bearing in mind the Methyltyramine does have impact on monoamine transporters may also contribute to PEAs bioavailability (??)

Edited by Cephalon, 14 July 2012 - 04:49 PM.

[Cephalon]

Now the more exotic compunds coming from Geranium2.0 called Dendrobium (possibly Dendrobium Nobile) which is a genus of Orchids:

Dendrobine

Dendrobine, C₁₆H₂₅O₂N, has a slight but demonstrable analgesic and antipyretic action—much weaker than that of amidopyrine. It produces moderate hyperglycemia, diminishes cardiac activity in large doses, lowers the blood pressure, suppresses the respiration, inhibits isolated rabbits' intestines, and contracts isolated guinea pigs' uteri.
The minimal lethal dose determined by intravenous injection in white mice and rats is 20 mgm. per kilogram, that in guinea pigs 22 mgm., and that in rabbits 17 mgm. per kilogram. Death is preceded by convulsions.
The convulsions caused by dendrobine appear to be central in origin—probably due to the stimulating action on both the medulla and the spinal cord. Sodium amytal has a detoxifying effect on dendrobine.
http://jpet.aspetjou...ontent/55/3/319

Dendroxine (not to be confused with Dendrotoxin - hope they check labels carefully)

? not much info online, other than that is indeed a component of Dendrobium Nobile.

Dendramine

? not much info online, other than that is indeed a component of Dendrobium Nobile.

Dendrobium Nobile

("Chin-shih-hu" in TCM)
or dendrobium moniliforme

Alkaloids:
http://www.jbc.org/c.../3/653.full.pdf

http://www.springerl...77j02482657175/

Also interesting:
http://www.nutraingr...CA-class-action

Couldn't find any Phenethylamines in Dendrobium yet, but there are not many paper's on it. I guess I will wait until Driven Sports comes up with that proof.

[Cephalon]

So as long as Dendrobium does not have any effects that the Chinese did not notice in a few hundred years the effect must definately come from:

N,N-Dimethyl-B-Phenylethylamine
N,N-Diethyl-B-Phenethylamine

Does anyone has any experiance with the LIPO6X formula containing:
N-Methyl-B-Phenylethylamine?
http://images.usa-4u...x_Lipo6xEUf.png

This one comes from an Acacia var.: http://onlinelibrary...451104/abstract

So the founders of CRAZE might have been inspired by Lipo6 here.

Acacia Rigidula (where the LIPO6X formula got it's PEAs from actually produces Methamphetamine?? see clarification below):
http://en.wikipedia....Acacia_rigidula

Phytochemistry

A 1998 paper in the journal Phytochemistry indicates that the leaves and stems of A. rigidula contain 40 alkaloids and amines,^[6] including:

• 3,4,5-Trihydroxyphenethylamine (a demethylated mescaline analog)^[7]
• Methamphetamine^[6]
• Anhalamine^[7]
• N-Methylphenethylamine^[7]
• Catechin^[7]
• Dimethyltryptamine – 323.8 ppm spring, 568.4 ppm fall^[6]
• Fisetin^[7]
• Hordenine^[7]
• Mescaline^[7]
• N-Methyltryptamine – 4.6 ppm spring, 54.9 ppm fall^[6]
• Nicotine^[7]
• Nornicotine^[7]
• Phenethylamine^[7] – 2314.6 ppm spring, 5264.8 ppm fall^[6]
• Quercetin^[7]
• Tyramine^[7]
• Tryptamine – 0.8 ppm spring, 21.2 ppm fall^[6]

These findings have never been confirmed or discussed and are considered by some to be unlikely and a product of contamination or a hoax. Some of the apparently found phenylethylamines were previously only known as man-made and their discovery would have been quite revolutionary. Also the authors of the 1998 study did not answer written requests.^[8

So maybe the Methamphetamine found in Acacia Rigidula actually is DMPEA as in CRAZE?

At this point I start to belive that CRAZE does contain an extract from Acacia Rigidula. Why?

a) the acacia var. has a chemical makeup that could explain the presence of DMPEA
b) it is already in used in the supplement industry
c) DS could have interest in masking the ingredient list to avoid copies
d) Dendrobium is yet to be shown to conatain PEAs as claimed (it looks as it has mainly glycosides and lactones)
e) Orchids are cool

Theorie 2:

N,N-Dimethyl-B-Phenylethylamine and N,N-Diethyl-B-Phenethylamine are actually man made:

a) Since LIPO6 was so successfull DS was inspired by NMPEA
b) DMPEA is relatively long known and there are synthesis instructions available
c) while NMPEA is a direct Amphetamine analogue DMPEA is a direct Methamphetamine analogue allowing the suggestion it was more potent and better then the LIPO6X ingredient NMPEA
d) Since NMPEA already came from acacia, it would have risen doubts if DMPEA comes from that plant again, given it has not been found by the crazy scientist who even found Mescaline in the acacia
e) Consequence: DS had to "find" it in another plant being an innocent Orchid living sorrowless in the Chinese rainforest (it's actually endangered)

Disclaimer:
Please note I do not intend to harm any of the companies involved. This is purely speculative and comes from a person who has no chemical, medical or whatsoever education. It's just a customer's oppinion which should be covered of the freedom of speach and science. While I love the product, as well as I like all other DS products and I find it is a great company, consumers should have the right to be informed that the correctness of the label may (or may not) rise doubts.
@longecity: please feel free to delete my posts, if you find the above to be unreasoned and intending to harm Driven Sports.

Conclusion: Whether or not CRAZE does contain any man made substances it worked a charm in my 2days sampling project. On the one hand sure, the consumer should have the right to know what's actually in the product he/she puts into his body. On the other the consumer should be able to make an educated decision whether or not to use the product and not let the state or anyone make that decision for him.

National interest:
For any DS reps reading this: Craze falls under the German drug law (AMG) since it is supposed to have an effect on the human biology, it's ingredients have a chemically close similarity of prescription drugs, it is intended for human ingestion,it is not produced within the EU and does not come with a describtion in German. This leads to an analogue application of the AMG, which regulates prescription drugs (not shedueled prescription drugs, which would be the BtMG). Just a fact your authorized resellers shoud bear in mind.

Edited by Cephalon, 14 July 2012 - 06:25 PM.

[unregistered_user]

Good work Cephalon. I enjoyed reading your findings.

[FrankMH]

Hey Frank MH, I heard that isn't the new taste out already? Hope they won't change the formular if they already making a new mix ...
I would do so, getting cold feet ...

Looks like you're right. I doubt they would change anything else; the Lawsuit appears to have died a death.

[Cephalon]

Good work Cephalon. I enjoyed reading your findings.

Thanks though it's to some point pure science fiction!

But if not it's their own blame, they needed to make a supplement that makes consumer's smart and active, coming behind their conspiracy - they would have been better off selling a product making consumers stupid and lazy

What I like about my writing (that's not intended to sound self-regarding - it wasn't even really in my sphere) is that the reader can follow me coming behind the "conspiracy" in realtime, since I avoided alot editing - sorry mods! - but spamming my thoughts over the course of my "research". I do not even believe 100% what I said regarding the acacia, but who knows?


I'm sure it's a cool job browsing old research papers pharmacompanies left untouched due to lack of interest (think about Patrick Arnold's work basing on 60's and 70's research). There will still be thousands of real nuggets burried in piles of papers ... and some may even come from plants

I would love to do such research if I had the skills, but my feeling of social responsibility wouldn't let me sleep. Especially in the RC business.

Edited by Cephalon, 14 July 2012 - 07:45 PM.

[Cephalon]

Hey Frank MH, I heard that isn't the new taste out already? Hope they won't change the formular if they already making a new mix ...
I would do so, getting cold feet ...

Looks like you're right. I doubt they would change anything else; the Lawsuit appears to have died a death.

Hey Frank,

Sorry, I'm not a native speaker You mean by died a death, that's out and over?
Did he withdraw his lawsuit? Did the court reject it?

Would be good news! Under that circumstances I would ask a mod to get my posts deleted, since I do not want to encourage anyone else taking legal steps against DS.

[tintinet]

I took a scoop this AM, pre-cardio workout. I think I actually felt some effects this time. First, a short (20-40 second) period of dysesthesia, about 15 minutes after ingestion. Then, during the workout, mildly increased energy.

[Cephalon]

Wow it's amazing how different all our bodies react. Do you use any stimulant meds where you could compare it to? ADS meds?
I found it to be stronger (or "better") then modafinil, ritalin, ethylphenidate, 3-FA, Methiopropamine and amphetamine for attention.
Took an exam today, and while I sucked, being unprepared (whole week was exam week ...) I performed really good. Words flew from pen to paper without my brain being involved Hope it actually makes sense, and I did not write in some fantasy language or such ...

Do you maybe have tollerance? Or your body needs to get used to it. That happend to me with amphetamine. The effects get/got better with time, paradoxically ... too some extend I'm sure. Maybe you have a very quick brain metabolism. Heavy MAO activity. Are you often depressed? Do you take Craze on empty stomach? I took Craze on a very empty stomach each time.

[tintinet]

Empty stomach. The first times I tried Craze (listed in this thread, escalating doses from 0.5 to 2 scoops), I felt absolutely nothing. It's been several weeks since then and I haven't taken it at all again until today, so tolerance doesn't appear to apply. Not too often depressed, although people have different perceptions of the meaning of that term. Can't really compare it to anything, given the lack of effects I've noticed.

[FrankMH]

Hey Frank MH, I heard that isn't the new taste out already? Hope they won't change the formular if they already making a new mix ...
I would do so, getting cold feet ...

Looks like you're right. I doubt they would change anything else; the Lawsuit appears to have died a death.

Hey Frank,

Sorry, I'm not a native speaker You mean by died a death, that's out and over?
Did he withdraw his lawsuit? Did the court reject it?

Would be good news! Under that circumstances I would ask a mod to get my posts deleted, since I do not want to encourage anyone else taking legal steps against DS.

Übrigens, bezüglich die Redewendung, kann ich nicht eine Entsprechung finden. Vielleicht ist es änlich wie 'durchgefallen und dann gestorben'??

Edited by FrankMH, 14 July 2012 - 09:56 PM.

[Cephalon]

Empty stomach. The first times I tried Craze (listed in this thread, escalating doses from 0.5 to 2 scoops), I felt absolutely nothing. It's been several weeks since then and I haven't taken it at all again until today, so tolerance doesn't appear to apply. Not too often depressed, although people have different perceptions of the meaning of that term. Can't really compare it to anything, given the lack of effects I've noticed.

that's sad. don't give up no, no encouraging here ...

Just ordered my third tub (no I do not eat one tub a day ) just to make sure I'm prepared for what might come. Though this is somewhat irrational, since it will most likely take a year or so to get banned over here, after it would be banned in the US. But better safe than sorry ... wow am I addicted already?
Don't go the Isochroma path Cephalon ...

Update: I will finish my research in a couple minutes - hope to get insights from DS trademark registration for Dendrobex, but I'm afraid a patent is not included - and will just resume, if anything remarkably happens in this issue. Read Patrick Arnold got interested - believing that it's something, that's actually not on the label? I don't think so.Must ask him to cover this up on his blog - excited about his theory.
Should contact DS maybe. That might spare me alot time. Being a "wholesale customer" buying family packs, I'm sure they will help me there ..

Edited by Cephalon, 14 July 2012 - 09:19 PM.

[Cephalon]

Hey Frank MH, I heard that isn't the new taste out already? Hope they won't change the formular if they already making a new mix ...
I would do so, getting cold feet ...

Looks like you're right. I doubt they would change anything else; the Lawsuit appears to have died a death.

Hey Frank,

Sorry, I'm not a native speaker You mean by died a death, that's out and over?
Did he withdraw his lawsuit? Did the court reject it?

Would be good news! Under that circumstances I would ask a mod to get my posts deleted, since I do not want to encourage anyone else taking legal steps against DS.

Wow cool where did you find that?

Sidenote: it does not proove CRAZE has no amphetamines in it, but not those amphetamines/cathiones it was tested for. But it's nice to know it's free of those listed, since I'd really like to avoid most of this stuff. + the fact that no athletes were tested positive or false positive does not proove it does not contain amphetamines. On the other hand I do not want to overly stress the chemical position of one or the other atom. It does contain something, which works really good. Just it does not have the amphetamine structure it does not mean DimethylPEA isn't strong stuff.
Sure the plaintiff claimed it contained amphetamines. But I do not think that the judge will restrict it's work on this fact - the plaintiff had some further (but not as strong) claims in his class action thing. I don't think CRAZE has anything in it which is not on the lable. I'm absolutely sure it's the DMPEA and DEPEA which are responsible. And those are packed in the Dendrobex blend:

Question:
(have no idea of US supplement laws):
Was the issue with 1,3 DMAA
a) that it was used as a pharm once and therefore it had to be provven to be of natural origin?
Or is it as I understood:
b) You can lable anything as a nutritional supplement as long as it's not shedueld/regulated and of natural origin until the FDA banns it for use in nutritional supplements?

Edited by Cephalon, 14 July 2012 - 09:47 PM.

[Cephalon]

Last note from me summarizing my findings about the presumable active ingredient in CRAZE and conclusion showing, that while CRAZE might have some labeling flawn it's ingredients are of natural origin - just not from orichdea most likely:


I. From acacia to bitter pills

In 2006 a patent was filed for the use of Acacia Rigidula and Acacia Farnesiana as a dietary supplement to help with weight loss due to it's content of (beside others like the LIPO6X ingredient) N,N Dimethylphenylethylamine aka DMPEA aka CRAZE active no.1 :

http://www.google.de...ylamine&f=false


By no other than: (and this is the point, were the protagonist in the movies get shot )

Jarred R. Wheat (CEO of HI-TECH-Pharmaceuticals)

He should 3 month later be arrested after fileing his patent application for producing fake medications such as Viagra and Lipitor in his basement, and was involved in illegal production and sales of recreational drugs:

http://www.businessw...17/bitter-pills
http://www.msnbc.msn...-months-prison/

II. Lipodrene and LIPO6X


The acacia extract containing N,N Dimethylphenethylamine was later used in HI Tech's Lipodrene:
http://www.smartbody...-Lite-Label.gif
http://www.ephedrawa...ith-ephedra.jpg


Someone here with experiance with either LIPO6X or Lipodrene who could contribute and help shed some light on this?

III. Connection to CRAZE (especially missing thereof)

Just because N,N - Dimethylphenethylamine is mentioned in a patent from this shady guy Jarred R Wheat (google the name, he was involved in every drug crime possible ) it does not mean Driven Sports is a shady company! There seems to be absolutely no connection between those two companies, other than that they both sell bodybuilding supplements. DS is in New York - HI-Tech is in Georgia. There are no other hints that would allow any assumptions and I do not believe there are any. Most likely DS either read the patent paper, or it is just general knowledge in the industry, that those acacia derived active ingredients work well. Also I do not know if Lipodrene or LIPO6X actually had compareable effect - which I do not believe since I did not hear anything about those two as study aids. As Niner pointed out before it will most likely be the interaction of different compounds, all on their own more or less, but active, that contribute to the remarkable effects. And as a sometimes user of all sorts of amphetamines, I can say that CRAZE is different. So I would be supprised to hear it's actually spiked.


Conclusion:

Craze by Driven Sports appears to be a great and effective supplement as far as I can tell from a 3 day trial. It will most likely not contain any amphetamines, but chemical close molecules. While most likely not coming from Dendrobium, Dimethylphenethylamine (and possibly Diethylphenethylamine come from a specious of the acacia genus, most likely being either Acacia Rigidula or Acacia Farnesiana. So it might have a labeling flaw, which isn't of great legal consequence, since at least Dimethylphenethylamine comes from Acacia Farnesiana. I find it the best study aid there is. I wouldn't spend 6 hours researching something like methylphenidate for instance.




ps:

Driven Sports appears to have some more stimulant products in the pipeline, or at least filed a trade mark. Really excited what that may be. On the German DS website (authorized reseller) CRAZE is advertised as a study aid. Maybe they try to hit that market with a compareable product in pill form. That would be such a blockbuster. OTC stimulant that could take it up with everything else. But I guess that might be too dangerous. While the BB Szene is somewhat in the grey area since existance, cognitive enhancement if of recent public interest - Limitless movie, talkshow discussions about enhancement ethics, books on the topic, studies showing employees go to work drugged to perform at 100%) If DS would market a product that effective in that tense atmosphere there will be alot more media attention than there already is.

Edited by Cephalon, 15 July 2012 - 12:55 AM.

[Cephalon]

Nice cover up by Carl Lanore, with special guest Matt Cahill from Driven Sports:

http://superhumanrad...losophical.html

@ dear moderator: please be so kind to delete post 165 for me, since it isn't well backed with references. Post 166 is the corresponding update.

Edited by Cephalon, 15 July 2012 - 03:29 AM.

[medievil]

Just took my first dose, lets see wheter i like this shit.

[Cephalon]

Let us know how it goes for you!

[medievil]

This stuff seems rather good as first impression, counteracts anhedonia and sa very well without causing too much euphoria at the same time, will see how it works for motivation but im rather impressed.

Has a very clear feeling, (DMT wich is also a taar1 agonist like some ingredients is said to do this too).

Im also on 20mg of prozac (started a few days ago), quercetin and forskolin (cilltep stack), d aspartic acid, magnesium and phenibut i wonder how they added to the effect of this one.

[Cephalon]

Hey Medi

Interesting you mention DMT - because if they actually used an extract of acacia ( which i don't expect though) the endproduct will contains Tryptamines, since those are naturally occuring in many Acacia species especially the ones jused in the patent I cited. You have used AMT before, right - do you see any parallels?

The patent by Jared Wheat actually contains an amphetamine being dimethyl-a-methylphenethylamine. Don't think it was used in Craze.

From what I gathered togetger I suppose Craze to be:
(mg per serving)
10-50mg N,N Dimethylphenylethylamine
10-50mg N,N Diethylphenylethylamine
50-70mg Caffeine
200-400mg Citrus Aurantium
75-100mg PEA
10-60mg NMTyramine

Does this add up to one spoon? Don't have the tub with me right now. The rest will be the fillers Creatine, Citruline...

If an Acacia Rigidula or an Acacia Farnesiana extract was used it will be approx. 150-300mg extract standarized to at least 10-25% phenethylamines. That would explain why the plant extract had PEA from natural source and additional PEA HCL was added as seen later on the label

I would be really surprisee if Craze actually contained any of the Dendrobium compounds listed on the label. Did you guys see the product webpage where they say like:
lalala Dendrobium has neuroprotective properties, this MAY explain the cognitive benefits users noticed
Or something like it - am on the jump - but it definately says something like MAY explain, COULD explain...

Sounds like they don't know what Dendrobium is and does themselfs

a) first of all, who of you ever heard that neuroprotection per se can have such a strong immediate effect on cognition
b) do you think they make a supplement containing exotic stuff like Dendramine, where there is no data showing it does anything good at all? I couldn't find a single use other then that one of those dilates blood vessels but in turn causues convulsions and is a taurine and beta alanine antagonist? This stuff will be rather expensive in raw form - would you put it in the prodct if there is no hint it has actually any benefit fir the formula? I guess it's just to give an explaination for the good effects, while a) leading other companies in the desert searching for this orchid and b) to protect the true formula

But I think it's really honorable of DS to mention the actives at all... Though this has risen peoples suspicion... They should have taken a plant which is unknown, but more likely ti contain adrenic amines - but maybe I'm wrong and this orchide is bursting of biogenamines... Naw

Edited by Cephalon, 15 July 2012 - 02:44 PM.

[lourdaud]

Hey guys, how would you say this substance compares to amphetamine and methamphetamine WRT those fucked-up tweaky edgy wired feelings 'phets might induce??
No paranoia or schizo-symptoms, MeD??

And would you say it improves working memory just as well as other stims??

[Cephalon]

Hey guys, how would you say this substance compares to amphetamine and methamphetamine WRT those fucked-up tweaky edgy wired feelings 'phets might induce??
No paranoia or schizo-symptoms, MeD??

And would you say it improves working memory just as well as other stims??

Hey! Can't answer your first question since I never had this symptoms from amphetamines other than the psychedellic ones. But for working memory I can confirm, that in my case it's the best product for this there is. But maybe the German version is spiked with some leftover Pervitin?

Edited by Cephalon, 15 July 2012 - 02:54 PM.

[medievil]

Hey guys, how would you say this substance compares to amphetamine and methamphetamine WRT those fucked-up tweaky edgy wired feelings 'phets might induce??
No paranoia or schizo-symptoms, MeD??

And would you say it improves working memory just as well as other stims??

no but i recovered enough from shizo enough to no longer get positives of stims, just regular anxiety at times wich phenibut counteracts mostly.

It works very well for negatives like most stims do for me.

Its quite simular to dari's imo.

[tintinet]

1.5 scoops 20 minutes pre-resistance workout (P90X Biceps and Back) on an empty stomach. I felt good, clear, clean, calm. Couldn't really tell I'd taken anything. No euphoria, no unpleasant effects, perhaps some appetite suppression.

[golden1]

So where can we buy these active ingredients in bulk :P

Also "dimethyl-a-methylphenethylamine" = DiMethyl-Amphetamine(methamphetamine with 2 methyls instead of one) if I'm reading it correctly. Pretty sure that is illegal.
It's actually rather interesting:
DMT= Di-methyl-tryptamine
and these are the phenethylamine versions of dmt in a way, as aMT(alpha-methyl-tryptamine) is the tryptamine version of amphetamine(alpha-methyl-phenethylamine)... I had actually wondered about the opposite for awhile.. and here it pops up. Unless I'm slightly off.

The patent by Jared Wheat actually contains an amphetamine being dimethyl-a-methylphenethylamine. Don't think it was used in Craze.

From what I gathered togetger I suppose Craze to be:
(mg per serving)
10-50mg N,N Dimethylphenylethylamine
10-50mg N,N Diethylphenylethylamine

[Cephalon]

Hi Golden1

Yes the a-methylphenethylamine should be an amphetamine by definition, and while Methamphetamine, would have one additional Methyl group the one in Wheat's paper has two. So that should fall under the analogue act if I'm correct.

But that one is not in CRAZE! Just to point that out The guy with the patent (Wheat) is not affiliated with DS (Cahill) as far as I can see.
Also the product Wheat describes in his paper is a bit different to CRAZE since it does have additional ingredients mentioned.

I found another patent from 2011 for a preworkout supp mentioning the acacia variety and phenethylamines similar to the one's in CRAZE. It was filed by a Canadian company.

On thermolife's forum there is a thread leaving nothing good on Matt Cahill, which I refuse to post here since it's really rude.
But they posted a long email conversation between DS and a chemical supplier regarding N,N Dimethylphenethylamine and 5-AT (DS used this in their cortisol control formular - it appears DS use pretty cutting edge stuff, custom synthesized)

Well you can buy N,N Dimethyl - b - phenylethylamine at Vosunchem for instance. Ordered with them before. They are good and quick

Edit: just forgot, your idea with the DMT - DMPEA - well you are not alone with this observation (link below) - some crazy guy came up with this in 2007 - other's told him this (DMPEA) would be ineffective - it appears they were wrong (actually I wondered if the guy on BL should have anything to do with CRAZE - but I start to get paranoid, so I want to cool it down a bit the next days. Too much stuff to do for school ... )

http://www.bluelight...-phenethylamine

Edit2: he is even discussing the dimethylamphetamine (second compound in Wheat's paper)... now it's getting scary and I will swich out the PC, because I don't want to spend a second night on chasing ghosts ....

Edited by Cephalon, 16 July 2012 - 12:41 AM.

[golden1]

Thanks for the response! I might just go for some 4-fluoro-amphetamine : P , but thanks for the details and thread. I wouldn't read into it too much, the bluelighter connections, because ever since trying/thinking about aMT I had wondered what the opposite would be like. So I imagine it is a common thing to wonder for those even slightly read up on aMT and chemistry/pharmacology.

[Cephalon]

Haven't tried the 4-fluro yet, but have a small sample here. But now I'm more focused on Craze, since I find it better as 3-FA. (am not too much into Serotonin release). Regarding the Dimethylamphetamine, it is actually a shedule I drug in the US. But again for those who did not follow the whole thread, Dimethylamphetamine was not used in Craze. It was patented beside other compounds by another company. http://en.wikipedia....thylamphetamine

Have an idea, why it does say Dendrobium and not Acacia Rigidula.

1. AFAIK Acacia R. was not in use before just recently (2006) so it would make a "new dietary ingredient"
http://www.fda.gov/F...s/ucm109764.htm

2. While Dendrobium (TCM herb) was most likely introduced before 1994
http://www.raysaheli...dendrobium.html

3. Found one source, claiming Wheat (Hi-Tech Pharma) actually got into trouble with the FDA for using Acacia R. (I will check the FDA archives on that)
http://www.livestron...cacia-rigidula/
http://www.livestron...dulas-benefits/
http://www.ehow.com/...a-rigidula.html

Another reason Dendrobium is not a good candidate:

Dendrobium is primarily used in China to replenish fluids. It is commonly used in Chinese herbalism as a Yin tonic which moistens the Stomach and Lungs. It can be very effective in treating dryness problems like dry mouth, thirst, stomach pain, mouth sores, sunstroke, and dry lungs and air passages due to dry weather or due to pollution and smoke. In other words, Dendrobium is used to balance hot, dry conditions, to replace damaged or lost fluids and to relieve thirst, depression and deficiency fever as a result an illness.

lol Dendrobium for treating dry mouth Would you guys who tried it recommend Craze to someone who had issues with dryness of mouth?
Other papers stating "analgetic" properties, and "reducing heart rate" do not help to round up the picture either ...

Edited by Cephalon, 16 July 2012 - 03:22 AM.

[golden1]

3-fa sucks A LOT incomparison to 4-fa. they aren't even close. I hate to use 3-fa, whereas 4-fa is perfect..... just saying.

3-fa is worse than adderall imo and it feels toxic



..4-fa @ 20-50mg = cleaner than dexamphetamine/vyvanse, non-existant comedown, no jitteryness, no normal stim side effects and if they are there they aren't bad in the slightest. It doesn't really release that much more serotonin than dexamp, especially since I only needed 20-35mg or less for a very decent effect.

People take it at higher doses as an MDMA type drug, I've tried 160mg it was pretty close to mdma, but not drugged feeling... infact you feel pretty much sober because of the lack of side effects even on 160mg(or at least I do). I had no after effects from 160mg.. you will have a bad time if you dose every day though and not when needed or if you dose recreational doses very often at all. However, 3-fa makes me feel worse after using it once than 4-fa did after a whole week.. can't really explain that.. 3-fa ..it's not even as noticeable, just annoying and kind of there.

Edited by golden1, 16 July 2012 - 03:38 AM.

[health_nutty]

How do they compare to dmaa?

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